Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: 5.0thunderbird on March 26, 2013, 11:00:18 PM

Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 26, 2013, 11:00:18 PM
Hey everyone. I know that the stock heads on the 5.0 birds are either e6 or e7 which we all know are restrictive. Now in order to get more power those either have to be ported or buy aftermarket heads. Now I have a set of gt40p heads that I might throw on sometime soon but idk of I should wait and sell those heads and get some aluminum ones would it be worth the wait? Or are there other heads that would fit with the stock pistons that offer a bigger power gain?
Of you have any info please comment on this thread Thanks!!!
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 26, 2013, 11:07:53 PM
The P heads will make some really good power but it depends on cam, intake, and compression ratio your short block already has.  We really need to know what the short block came out of and if it is stock or what you have changed to make any kind of a real suggestion here.

Darren
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 26, 2013, 11:10:33 PM
Well it's a thunderbird sport so it came with the 5.0 from the factory. It's 100% stock accept for the exhaust system because I am planning on doing some intake modifications.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 27, 2013, 09:35:46 AM
So the short block will stay the same and you would install the P heads?  Would you be installing an Explorer intake or similar with a larger throttle body?  I only ask as the P heads should be a huge improvement over the stock heads but if you do not compliment them with a decent intake and throttle body they will choke the heads a little bit.  Still I would say swap the heads even if that is the only thing you are going to do as it will improve the performance.  If you can swing it do the heads, upper & lower intakes, and throttle body as that will be a substantial change but the only thing I am not sure about is if the SD EEC will support it but I don't see why it would not.  The thing to do after that is to convert it to mass air, change the injectors to match the MAF, and then ask around about camshaft selection with the pistons that are in the motor.  When you tear the motor down to install the heads make a note if the pistons have valve reliefs (take a few pictures) as that will help a lot with knowing a range of camshafts that will work with them.  Also, don't forget to get a good double roller timing chain.

One thing you should do is have the heads checked to see if they need a valve job and install new springs.  Just make sure you do not put too much spring on them for the stock cam but ones that will work with a roller cam at a later date.

Darren
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 27, 2013, 10:48:19 AM
Im going to get the heads resurfaced and im going to put some edelbrock 1.6 roller rockers on it and probably some mild springs. i was planning on doing the HO conversion and the head swap at the same time just so i have a big enough cam like you said. I was also planning on putting a cobra intake on. I want to go up to atleast 350hp and im sure those gt heads can handle it.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 27, 2013, 11:39:38 AM
Sounds like you have a good plan then.  The only thing I will say is 350 hp is a pretty lofty goal for that combination.  I would guess that 250 rwhp would be reasonable goal with torque in the 280 to 290 ft-lbs.  That will motivate the Bird very well.

Darren
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: canadiancarguy on March 27, 2013, 06:58:24 PM
If you are getting the heads resurfaced why don't you just get a ready to run new set of aluminum ones? $699 will get you a decent set with nothing required other than bolting them in. You can grow into the aluminum heads where you can outgrow the gt40s if you get the modding bug, and trust me it happens. If you aren't rebuilding the heads yourself or got em free the gt40s could end up costing as much as aluminum heads after new valve seals, springs, valves, and all the machine to work to fit the new valves. I don't know just seems silly to me, it is like trading your oxe for a donkey when you could be getting a horse for the same money.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on March 27, 2013, 07:30:54 PM
Locate a good used 87-93 HO roller block and add a set of mike's heads and some headers. ALL parts go together without a problem and make a nice package.
http://www.hunterstyle.com/thumper/combos.php
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 27, 2013, 07:48:05 PM
Guys, he has an existing 5.0 in his car and already has the P heads and intake. What you are suggesting would be going backwards and spending quite a bit of money.

Darren
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Masejoer on March 27, 2013, 07:53:33 PM
On the cheap, the heads will work fine but I'd check them out before installation. Check the springs, seats, guides, clearances, etc. If they're alright and you don't plan on heading over 4500-5000rpms, they'll be fine for awhile, until you get the urge for more.

If you had to spend over $200 in machine work (valve/seat work) or parts, other than stem seals, I'd go with some aluminum heads. I've seen some nice deals on reworked gt40y and x heads for just over $500.

If the heads are good enough, on the cheap I'd just lap the valves, replace the valve stem seals, pick up an explorer intake, and an HO cam. With the stock AOD with the tv cable setup to provide more pressure, you'd be looking at closer to 4500rpm shifts and it'd be much more powerful. You can do exhaust, throttle body, etc as funds allow. A good flowing unported gt40/gt40p setup should get you over 300hp, maybe around 320 tops if spun to 5k. It can be some of the cheapest power you can make. Going for another 60-100hp in the 302 can easily triple the price for only 20-25% more power. If you were to just bolt on the heads with a HO intake and cam, without exhaust work or anything, I'd expect like 230hp at best. The stock exhaust on these cars is extremely restrictive, as will the be the HO intake. The thing is, the heads are still more efficient and you can grow into them by upgrading the intake and exhaust.

So what is the budget, and what are your reasonable expectations?
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on March 27, 2013, 07:59:12 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;411969
Guys, he has an existing 5.0 in his car and already has the P heads and intake. What you are suggesting would be going backwards and spending quite a bit of money.

Darren
....which 5.0?  A roller block has forged pistons, HO cam and add a set of 1.7 RR to his or other heads makes for a dependable ride. Heads are useless unless there is something decent that they are bolted to. Just my opinion.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: canadiancarguy on March 27, 2013, 09:20:24 PM
OK, if you got the heads already and they DON'T need work then it is worth it, if you gotta machine em or do anything to em, then it is NOT worth it.

Here is an example, I bought a set of SBC Dart iron eagle race heads for the 400 small block that is going in my s10. They were supposed to be ready to run, but I seen some issues, and had to rebuild em, Ferrara valves, new valve seals, sportsman springs, and 4 angle valve job, plus some resurfacing and a mild port, WAY OVER the price of buying ready to run pro comp, patriot, or similar entry level aluminum heads. Now these are race heads, with GT40s you do all this and you are STILL not quite flowing like the aluminum head. With that said, if you can do your own head work or know someone who can do it GT40s are TOTALLY worth it and they are even better if they are ready to bolt on!! I hope that explains where I am coming from....
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 27, 2013, 10:35:32 PM
Right now I have bbk shorty headers, a bbk h pipe, flowmaster 40s, and the mustang tailpipes so I have plenty of room to put intake modifications on. Some parts I have laying around that I am going to put on are some underdrive pulleys and a cold air intake. I think I'll be hitting atleast 200hp with all that on the car and the HO conversion should add atleast 30hp. I want the car to end up at the 350-400hp range when I'm finished can that be acheived with the 5.0?
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 88xr7cougar on March 27, 2013, 11:11:07 PM
You will really want to upgrade the valve springs on the p heads I would suggest Alexsparts.com has great priced dropin spring kits and more for these heads especially if you go with ho camshaft.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: turbotrav on March 27, 2013, 11:34:08 PM
Lots of good info in this post...

If u r really looking for 350hp flywheel horsepower.... Hmmm

The gt40p can do it, but you will need a big cam, maf, injectors, big fuel pump,
Upgrade the springs like posted, because u will need to spin to 6000.
Now your stock aod/converter will fail or be very unhappy.

So, what to do...if u bolt on the gt40p and upgraded intake and TB.  The stock cam really is holding u back.
So catch 22...

So without fuel upgrades, computer upgrades...its going to be rough.
So how much money do/can u spend on this conversion?

Travis
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Masejoer on March 27, 2013, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: 5.0thunderbird;411987
I want the car to end up at the 350-400hp range when I'm finished can that be acheived with the 5.0?

Not easily with the gt40p's, and really not possible if you aren't taking it up to higher rpms. Are you using the AOD? The thing shifts early. Horsepower will equal torque at 5252.1rpms.

With a 302 or 306, you really need to take it to 5500-6000 rpms to pass 400hp, and this will be with good flowing parts. Aftermarket heads will get someone 350hp at 5k rpms.

Planning on sticking with the HO cam?
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 28, 2013, 07:27:36 AM
Idk if I can go with anything bigger than the HO can because of valve to piston clearance. Is that going to be an issue?
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: turbotrav on March 28, 2013, 08:24:50 AM
Thats right...I forgot about the flat pistons of SO 5.0...

So you are stuck with a stockish type of cam....even with the best aftermarket heads, its going to be tough to make the power.  6000-6500 with AOD....death.

Plus all the other upgrades that would be needed...

Or you can bolt the gt40p on and enjoy the 20-30HP...

Travis
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 28, 2013, 08:50:45 AM
I think what i am going to do is bolt on the heads and have a little fun. But i think starting this spring im going to built a 5.0 with some mahle motersports connecting rods and pistons so i can go all out with the thunderbird and create the desired hp that I want.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 28, 2013, 09:59:56 AM
I am telling you that if you do the heads, intake, TB, stock cam, and switch over to mass air you will have a little learning curve with the added hp and torque with the SO short block.  Many people have run larger cams with the SO short blocks and its pretty easy to call Comp Cams and have them spec one.  I am not saying you buy one but have them spec it so you can see if you can come up with something close (be conservative) that is used and then just clay it before you final assemble everything.  Do some searching on here and there are several threads on this very topic.  What you are going to get is a fun car to drive that will be super reliable and make around 250 to 275 rwhp.

Now if you are going to build a motor after doing this work to your SO short block I would highly advise that you to build a 331 or 347 if you want to stay with a 302 based motor to build the hp that you want.  Just realize that if you bolt on heads and intakes meant for a 302 on a larger displacement motor you will most likely build 302 power.

Darren
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Masejoer on March 28, 2013, 11:07:22 AM
Just build a GT40/GT40P spec'd motor and use the HO cam, you'll be happy. They will work fine on the stock shortblock. You can easily make 300hp at that point, and possibly a bit more. The car will drive very well. Yo said you want to use a Cobra intake so it sounds like you're already on the right track.

You have the heads
$100-$150 - Explorer intake (or $250-300 for Cobra - they perform the same)
$50 65mm or 70mm throttle body
You have the exhaust
$50 HO cam
$50 mass air sensor (recommended)
$50 mass air 4-wire harness

What am I missing? Just adjust the TV cable under the throttle body to provide more pressure and you'll be happy with the firmer shifts and delayed shift points. I think 260rwhp minimum is pretty common for the engine combo, which would be 300-310hp at the crank, somewhere around 5k rpms. It's much more fun than the puny 150-155hp these cars made when the engines were fresh.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 28, 2013, 12:18:22 PM
I think ford should have put the HO in the tbirds and cougars but we all have to work with what we've got. And another question I have is how much HP can i possibly push out of the SO with the stock pistons?
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Masejoer on March 28, 2013, 08:50:46 PM
The pistons are fine as-is with the upgraded NA parts - don't worry about them. They'd mostly be an issue if you went with an aggressive cam, or power adders such as nitrous or forced induction.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 28, 2013, 11:16:31 PM
I'm going as far as nitrous lol. I think the biggest cam I'm gonna be putting in with it is the stock HO or maybe there is another cam that is bigger but can work with the SO pistons
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: turbotrav on March 29, 2013, 01:37:56 AM
Stock 5.0 HO r cheap.....

Go to the http://WWW.coral.com

Travis
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 29, 2013, 12:22:20 PM
Holler at Vinnie, I think he had a E cam in his SO short block back in the day.  I have read that a few guys are running 1.7 roller rockers with the stock 85-89 HO cam with the SO short block with P heads.  This is all just what I have read so I would still give Comp a call and see what they would recommend.  An you really need to buy an extra head gasket and clay the PTV clearance before completely assembling the motor.

Darren
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 29, 2013, 12:45:47 PM
As an example the set up in my sig (with a 65mm TB) made 290 flywheel horsepower, based on quarter mile track times. With a swap to the Edelbrock Performers (keeping the 65mm TB) and nothing else the car picked up 40 horsepower, based on the car picking up 4 mph at the track. Basing the horsepower estimate on track times the car is making about 330 flywheel horsepower with just a head swap. The cam I'm running is just slightly above a stock HO cam.

Depending on cam selection you should be able to make anywhere between 280-300 flywheel horsepower with iron GT40/GT40P easily.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: thewestie on March 29, 2013, 03:03:52 PM
Every time I see this thread my inner child is imagining talking heads ;)
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: turbotrav on March 31, 2013, 12:41:43 AM
Quote from: thewestie;412102
Every time I see this thread my inner child is imagining talking heads ;)

Hehe...well after reading this thread again...I like the idea of a SO 5.0 with GT40P heads, intakes, TB, mass conversion...nice 275-300hp flywheel package...will destroy the stock AOD quickly...

Travis
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 31, 2013, 09:53:33 AM
You really think that the trans can't handle that power? Would I have to do a full trans swap?
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: turbotrav on March 31, 2013, 10:53:10 AM
It will for abit....stock AOD hmm....if you do the mods that you are thinking of, that will be twice the hp and more torque than stock....

Travis
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 31, 2013, 12:37:51 PM
Idk about that though. The mustangs and f150s had the same trans. People upgrade the stangs all the time from the stock 230hp I don't see why it wouldn't handle up to 300hp.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 31, 2013, 05:48:27 PM
Quote from: 5.0thunderbird;412210
You really think that the trans can't handle that power? Would I have to do a full trans swap?

No but assuming it's in good condition it should at least get a shift kit and hardened inner input shaft...

When I installed my TW headed 5.0, the low mileage Super Coupe AOD didn't do too badly if it shifted on it's own but it struggled if manually shifted at 6000 RPM... After I installed the Trans-Go kit it was great but busted the inner shaft on the 2nd pass down the track... With the hardened shaft it's lived through over 700 drag strip passes(some with a 75 or 150 shot of juice) and still shifts fairly well, but it's not as crisp as when the kit was first installed...

BTW I only ran type F fluid in it the whole time it was in the car...
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: turbotrav on March 31, 2013, 10:28:29 PM
The stock AOD behind the 86-88 SO 5.0 tbird/cougar isnt the best...can be upgraded.  With a shift kit...it may live.  The input shafts are weak.  I always read manually shifting a stock AOD is a no no...

Anyways to the OP...if you go head with all of your planned mods...ie heads, intake, tb, injectors, maf/eec upgrade, fuel pump...the extra cost and time of installing a shift kit shouldnt be that big of a deal :)

Good luck,

Travis
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on April 01, 2013, 11:44:13 AM
Where would I get the shift kit from?
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 01, 2013, 12:23:10 PM
Quote from: turbotrav;412284
The stock AOD behind the 86-88 SO 5.0 tbird/cougar isnt the best...can be upgraded.  With a shift kit...it may live.  The input shafts are weak. I always read manually shifting a stock AOD is a no no...

Anyways to the OP...if you go head with all of your planned mods...ie heads, intake, tb, injectors, maf/eec upgrade, fuel pump...the extra cost and time of installing a shift kit shouldnt be that big of a deal :)

Good luck,

Travis

Only if you do the 1-D-1 shuffle, which is what most will do...

If you start in 1st it's OK to shift to drive, pause for a couple seconds then pull back to 1st to hold 2nd, just don't do it too quickly...

Besides the shift kit, I modified my valve body to only shift to 2nd in the D position, it's a old Lentech mod that came out before they started selling reworked valve bodies... I dunno if it's avail on the net, I may have a copy somewhere, have to check... Only bad is there is no way to hold Drive(3rd) other than WOT but with 3.73 gears it's never been a issue... If you go Trans-Go Kit, there is a modified 3-4 shift valve that allows O/D at WOT, DO NOT install it with above modification...


Jegs, Summit, ebay, etc have all the shift kits you'd ever want... Lentech, Performance Automatic and others will sell you a modified VB that's a bolt in...
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on April 01, 2013, 07:54:10 PM
If I change my rear end to a different ratio will that help any? I mean the trans has only 60,000 miles on it so
It should be in good condition. I have never done any trans work before so I'd have a shop put in a shift kit
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 12GO on April 18, 2013, 06:22:09 AM
I am building an 88 TBird with a 393" and aod. But I am NOT using efi but rather a tried and true 750dp.  If no cam has been bought yet, the B cam with 1.7 rockers works well in the 302 / 5.0 engines and P heads, and you still have your vacuum for brakes and a/c. That is the combo coming out of my car.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 19, 2013, 12:52:37 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;412324
Only if you do the 1-D-1 shuffle, which is what most will do...

If you start in 1st it's OK to shift to drive, pause for a couple seconds then pull back to 1st to hold 2nd, just don't do it too quickly...

Besides the shift kit, I modified my valve body to only shift to 2nd in the D position, it's a old Lentech mod that came out before they started selling reworked valve bodies... I dunno if it's avail on the net, I may have a copy somewhere, have to check... Only bad is there is no way to hold Drive(3rd) other than WOT but with 3.73 gears it's never been a issue... If you go Trans-Go Kit, there is a modified 3-4 shift valve that allows O/D at WOT, DO NOT install it with above modification...


Jegs, Summit, ebay, etc have all the shift kits you'd ever want... Lentech, Performance Automatic and others will sell you a modified VB that's a bolt in...

 
I've doen that valve body mod to my AOD as well. It's called the epoxy mod. I've got 3.73 gears as well and I've never had a problem with the trans hunting between 3rd and 4th. I think it's a worth while mod if you're keeping an AOD.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: turbotrav on April 22, 2013, 07:34:58 PM
Hey OP

This is a pretty good thread....how much $$ do u want to spend.

Any progress....

Travis
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Dan B. on April 22, 2013, 08:26:37 PM
Here's where I am at.

Did a full HO swap with a motor from a '88 Mustang GT that already had aftermarket shorties on it($260).  Installed an Explorer upper and lower intake ($80).  Then I traded a nitrous kit (worth $250) for a BBK H-pipe, Edelbrock 70mm TB, EGR plate, BBK FPR and gauge.  I also converted the car to MAF for about $150.  With this and a T5 I have a super fun driver.  All I have planned to do yet is a set of P heads to match the intake and maybe 1.7 rockers.  I'll lap the valves and maybe a DIY P&P job.  After that I'm done.  It will pick up some more hp/tq yet still be all stock-ish Ford parts that can be fixed or replaced from any parts store when roadtripping it.

At the track w/ launching too low and shifting too late (was used to driving my 351W Ranger) it still managed 98.5mph and 14.05.  It's easily capable of 13.60 in the current configuration.  Then two weeks ago we took the 'bird on a couple hundred mile trip with two adults and three kids in the backseat.  It averaged 24mpg.  To me, that's hard to beat for a car I have less than $3k in including the purchase price and all the mods......motor, brakes, suspension, T5, complete fuel system, etc, etc!
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: turbotrav on April 26, 2013, 07:39:58 AM
Wow good job...sounds like a nice running bird...

Travis
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: Dan B. on April 26, 2013, 09:10:14 AM
Thanks.  If it goes 13.50 in the current set up I think I may not touch anything...even if it doesn't I'm ok with that.  There is a lot of stuff I'd like to do but it is such a comfortable and reliable cruiser that I'm having a hard time justifying it.  With the 245/60 rear tire and 3.55's the speedo is dead on.  At 65mph the tach is just under 2K.  Shorter gears would be nice at the track but would suck on the highway.  Taller gears (3.27's) would be great on the highway but would drag first gear out too long around town.

IMO...it turned out to be a great budget "medium quick" sleeper.  With the all forged motor I could hit it with spray and make it quicker without harming its street friendly nature.
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on October 28, 2013, 11:23:56 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;413542
I've doen that valve body mod to my AOD as well. It's called the epoxy mod. I've got 3.73 gears as well and I've never had a problem with the trans hunting between 3rd and 4th. I think it's a worth while mod if you're keeping an AOD.


I'm interested in the details of the "epoxy mod". Where can I find more info on it?
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 29, 2013, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;423862
I'm interested in the details of the "epoxy mod". Where can I find more info on it?


I didn't do it myself. The guy who built my trans did it for me. You can find info on it here in post #47: http://www.clickclickracing.com/forums/showthread.php?2817-AOD-1-2-3-4-Shift-Pattern-(EPOXY-Mod)/page5

Here are the pictures of what to do: http://s93.photobucket.com/user/silverfoxbody/library/SILVERFOX%20TRANSMISSION/EPOXY%20MOD/#/user/silverfoxbody/library/SILVERFOX%20TRANSMISSION/EPOXY%20MOD?sort=3&page=1&_suid=138307637006502951552424376907
Title: Talking cylinder heads.
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on October 29, 2013, 11:07:29 PM
Thank you for the link. The article is very detailed and straight forward.