Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: Gekell on March 18, 2013, 12:06:41 PM

Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 18, 2013, 12:06:41 PM
So I have a 1987 TC and would like to put a 1984 5.0L in it. I'm currently tearing the old 5.0L apart and plan to rebuild it and get a little more HP out of it. My dad said the v8 came carbureted and I'd like to know if I can get a EFI system for it so that its more reliable and more power too.

Planning on getting a rebuild kit for it from Summit with no changing of bore size to keep it easier and cheaper, but after that idk.

Although any other tips you can throw my way for rebuild and install would be greatly appreciated!
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 18, 2013, 12:39:14 PM
Wo
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: bigbada1 on March 18, 2013, 01:13:24 PM
I have a stock Upper and Lower intake with TB along with an F150 Fuel rail with extensions to be able to plug directly into your TC fuel lines and 19lb injectors I also happen to have a repinned 88 tbird harness that would require very little wiring to use. Harness is actually set up for mass air.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 18, 2013, 01:20:11 PM
I'm not gonna disagree about mileage. But the car won't lose to much value because I changed the engine to something better (and i plan to keep this car in the family). The TC is great because of whats under the car not just the hood.
Also I do know that I could get a lot out of the 2.3 and turbo but the after market isn't to strong, and too expensive for me. Where the old Windsor has a great market with some pretty good deals. And sorry I keep rambling but my Dad bought the old engine and transmission to put in it so I plan to do the same. :)
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 18, 2013, 01:33:13 PM
What year of block did you put this on because from what I've read they switched the block or something in 86 that changes how stuff lines up i guess:/
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: bigbada1 on March 18, 2013, 01:47:27 PM
Also have a set of stock tbird motor mounts and set of new Chucks mounts for sale.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: bigbada1 on March 18, 2013, 01:48:24 PM
all my stuff  was off of an 86 block
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: bigbada1 on March 18, 2013, 02:52:31 PM
As far as I know a stock 302 windsor block is the same. there might be something different between castings when they went to a roller cam
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Beau on March 18, 2013, 03:03:19 PM
The only differences worth mentioning are the holes for the roller lifter spider. The external mounts and important holes, etc are all standard, whether it's from a 99, 89, or 84.

For that matter though, I'd find a roller block...having that option is a major must have for a lot of cam choices.

Quote
But the 2.3 in many cases can out perform a 5.0 with the benefits of good fuel mileage. Just saying.

Show me where a 2.3 can be made to have more power (we'll leave mileage alone..the 2.3 at best only gets 1-2 mpg more) than a 5.0 FOR LESS MONEY, and I'll leave this forum voluntarily.

The 2.3 is a good engine, but you can build a 5.0 to silly power (granted, it may blow up in a week) a hell of a lot cheaper than you can build a 2.3 to make that same power. Not everyone has the skills to weld several feet of i/c piping, either, let alone set up a large single or a twin system.

I'd rather have an LS engine than a 2.3....but I'd rather have an ecoboost than anything else.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on March 18, 2013, 05:11:31 PM
The 302 can create way more power than the 2.3 turbo. There is no better engine for fun than a v8 in my eyes.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 18, 2013, 05:13:44 PM
^^^^^^^^ There you go, after owning a FULL dozen '87-'88 Turbo Coupes, my feelings exactly...

Above said, I'd never swap using a non roller or stock headed 5.0, at the least a GT40 head would be my choice and prefer something in aluminum...

A alum head and intake 5.0 with headers doesn't weigh but about 100Lb more than the all iron 4cyl and will make a easy 325-350Hp, try that with a 2.3T and keep it reliable...

There's a post on here by Dominator that covers most of the necessary changes, having done the swap myself I know it's mostly accurate and isn't for the swapper that can't read wiring diagrams(it's a real bitch to find as he contributed to a already active thread)...

Here's the thread I was talking about, luckily I had it book marked...

http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?1218-turbocoupe-5.0-swap

I used a 5.0 Bird for all the small pieces that's necessary and converted it's SEFI harness to mass air before I swapped it into the TC...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 18, 2013, 10:40:00 PM
Horsepower is cheaper with a 5.0 than a 2.3.  Just sayin.  But more than that, Horsepower is a calculated from Torque, and you'll never get more Torque with a 2.3 than a 5.0 on a similar budget. I think TC's and 2.3T's are cool, but it's easier to afford to make my 5.0 fast.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Aerocoupe on March 18, 2013, 10:44:53 PM
I know this guy makes 5.0 harnesses but they may be Mustang specific.  He does do custom jobs but I have no idea what he would charge.

http://www.thedetailzone.com/Ford%20Replacement%20Harnesses.htm

Darren
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 19, 2013, 08:01:34 AM
Okay so obviously I should change to a roller cam set, didn't know that earlier. But how could I do this the cheapest way? I have a limited budget but know I want to change the engine & transmission. I would love if people would help to suggest parts or places to buy! I'm don't want or have the budget for huge horsepower, 250ish will do but more is fine by me lol.
Thanks everyone who has commented so far much appercaited!

I read dominator's post so ill need to look into getting those parts.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 19, 2013, 08:15:01 AM
And also if I say something wrong, please correct me!

Another thing... While I rebuild the v8 and all that, I plan to put in the new transmission in and get that figured out and turn up the turbo PSI until I got the v8 done.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Loaded87IROC on March 19, 2013, 10:36:16 AM
Welcome to the board!  Where in Iowa are you located? 

If 250 horsepower is all you need, why bother swapping engines?  The 2.3 will easily (and reliably) make that, probably with just more boost and exhaust.  What transmission in currently in the car?  It is true that there aren't 100 companies making parts for the 2.3 like the Windsor, but performance parts are readily available from places like Stinger Performance, Boport, Esslinger, etc.  I encourage you to read up at Turboford.org before making the swap.  Once you up the boost, you just might get hooked on it. 

Whichever path you choose with your car, there are plenty of people here to help you get the job done.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 19, 2013, 12:41:23 PM
I d
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 19, 2013, 01:44:13 PM
I know I could get 250hp from the TC but I'd like the torque grunt and power of a v8. I plan to keep this for a long time and will keep upgrading the engine as I get the money. And I'm pretty stubborn about this v8 idea trust me.. And I'm not saying 250 like my target I want that bare minimum.

What are some good ways to get the gunk and oil off the old v8?
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 19, 2013, 03:16:58 PM
Some years back when MM&FF was testing different aftermarket heads, they got 245 Hp from the stock E7 headed 5.0HO with the only mods being a little timing advance and dyno headers...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Chrome on March 19, 2013, 04:40:28 PM
I would look into the aftermarket cams and see what they have for non-roller. They have some pretty peppy stuff for them. Other than cam and electrical, everything else is bolt-on.

And yes, 5.0 is the cheaper way to get HP. Not to mention, you can also get better sounding exhaust with them.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 19, 2013, 07:03:06 PM
True
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 19, 2013, 07:32:12 PM
TOM Renzo how much money did you have to spend to get 260 at the back wheels?

Right now my TC has the stock A4LD (automatic) in it right now and it leaking and it slips like crazy after not being drive for a few month... So getting it out from where it's stored, when the snow melts, is gonna be fun.

Can anyone suggest a good step-by-step guide for rebuilding?
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 19, 2013, 08:41:12 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;411472
True but the stop light events are very satisfying when a 5.0 guys gets smoked by a 4 banger. By the way the 2,3 makes plenty of torque when modified. just saying it is your car and do whatever you think is best. Personally i would not build a flat tappet motor. With a 5.0 bare minimum would be a roller setup and once the magic 400Hp mark is met the engine will become 2 four cylinders anyway!!

 
Bah plenty of stock 5.0 blocks live at 400Hp and where were we talking that much HP anyway?????

High RPM is what kills them, keep it under 6500 and 400Hp is doable of course to have 400Hp at lower speeds is gonna probably require a SC or turbo......
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 19, 2013, 09:19:33 PM
A few random 87 TC question..

My "fog" lights have never come on ever, and the previous owner said that. common problem? fixes?
Secondary radiator fan never come on for what I know.
How to turn the PSI up to 15ish from 10 Factory stock?
When installing the AOD with the same length as the A4LD will any of the linkage have to change?
Best way to clean up the Factory "snow flake" wheels? their oxidized, or something IDK.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 19, 2013, 11:34:49 PM
Quote from: Gekell;411477
A few random 87 TC question..

My "fog" lights have never come on ever, and the previous owner said that. common problem? fixes? [COLOR="red"]Could be fuse, switch, bulbs as a start...[/COLOR]

Secondary radiator fan never come on for what I know. [COLOR="red"]It won't unless temp exceeds 225*F[/COLOR]

How to turn the PSI up to 15ish from 10 Factory stock?[COLOR="red"]Adjustable Boost controller often refered to as Gillis Valve or can join the two ports on front of turbo that connect to the factory boost controller and get about 13psi(probably about all a stock A4LD can stand)... [/COLOR]

When installing the AOD with the same length as the A4LD will any of the linkage have to change?[COLOR="red"]There are no AOD the same length as a A4LD(you'll need a longer D/S) and A4LD shifter isn't adaptable to AOD[/COLOR]

Best way to clean up the Factory "snow flake" wheels? their oxidized, or something IDK[COLOR="red"]Beats me, I never let mine get dirty[/COLOR]....


....
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 19, 2013, 11:41:02 PM
Thanks for the help!
Ill check my fuses and bulbs when the bird comes home.
My TC stalled from over heating at one point las summer soo idk if it kicked on..
Also the person doig my transmission work is going to put a different length yoke on for me!
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 20, 2013, 05:21:24 AM
[QUOTE
By the
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 20, 2013, 05:33:29 AM
I kno
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 20, 2013, 09:14:54 AM
Tom before you go... I do play to switch the motor over to a roller cam.
And lastly is their and Affordable way to put the turbo back on to the v8, I've always wondered that.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 20, 2013, 10:14:20 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;411505
Even a supercharged motor built mildly for lets say 10K will only support 400-450 wheel hp before the front main is sitting in your front seat. Basically there is nothing wrong with building a 302, But to limit it to a flat tappet cam in my view is a handy cap to start with. In order to get as you say low RPM torque you will need a roller profile that is a fact. Other than that to get 450 RWH the 302 is living on borrowed time. Just me not trying to be a kill joy. Just posting some of my dealings with the 302 ford. As for the 2.3 it is not very hard to achieve 280 RWH with a head a turbo and some fancy tuning. With that carry on Guys!!


[COLOR="red"]Who said anything about 450 RWHP??? That's going to be about 550-570 at the crank...[/COLOR]



So if you are talking under 400Hp what is wrong with a 2.3 that can achieve 300Hp with very Basic building techniques. Just a thought!!

[COLOR="red"]With a performance exhaust they sound like about any other ricer with a fart can..[/COLOR].


By the way building HP in a 302 is not cheap. The engine does not breathe . Every ford guy knows this . Just saying


 
A good set of alu heads fixes that and they are cheap... By the time you mess around finding a good 2.3T head that isn't cracked, port it and install big valves, you'll have the price of a new set of 5.0 heads... Yeah you are going to DIYS but few of us have access to a machine shop...

PLUS you need a turbo that will support higher power levels, the wimpy little IHI isn't going to be of much use for over 240-250 CRANK HP... At that power level the puny 2.3 clutch is going to last what, 3-4K mi if you're lucky???

I yanked my 2.3T in '99 and have never missed it(sold it to a SVO guy), and usually kept the real TCs around just long enough to find them another home... Yeah  5-speed can be fun, but some of us want a automatic and the A4LD is far from a performance piece...


Basically by the time all the supporting pieces are bought, neither will be cheap if one is shooting for over 300HP...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Masejoer on March 20, 2013, 01:08:23 PM
But factory GT40(p) based motors are cheap and can easily get people up above 250 RWHP, 300+ crank. Those things are great for the price with many pulls selling for under $500.

Everything else, if you want over 400hp, I'd go straight to either a 351 or a strong aftermarket 302 block. At that point there's not much of a limit in what you can do. $5k (new parts) can get you a 408 with cam/heads/intake that can make well over 500hp, and $7000 (new parts) can get you a 302/347/351/408 that can take nearly whatever you want to dish out. Revving much higher than the limiter of course can easily double these prices. I figure you'd need at least another $1k on top of these numbers for supportive upgrades, but many of us have already completed those. Past 600hp, things start to get more difficult and expensive, especially if you add traction. I can't see more than 600hp ever being anything but reckless driving when on the street but you still always want more...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 20, 2013, 01:59:15 PM
600
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Big B on March 20, 2013, 07:00:33 PM
Personally, I'm building the 2.3 just to do something a little different from the common line. Everyone and their brother has a built 5.0 in their fox. It's so common place now, it has become a cliche to see one. I realize that it is much more expensive to build than the 5.0, and the motor's bottom end really won't last much past 50-75K at around 400hp, but I'm ok with that. If I wasn't, I would have went 351w all day long. The 5.0 is a good motor to go fast with on the cheap though.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 20, 2013, 07:34:57 PM
Big b do you have any post or whatever on your project cause I want to see how it goes for you:) good luck!

Found a salvaged 88mustang looking into getting that engine instead off rebuilding the two.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 20, 2013, 08:41:36 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;411513
A good set of alu heads fixes that and they are cheap... By the time you mess around finding a good 2.3T head that isn't cracked, port it and install big valves, you'll have the price of a new set of 5.0 heads... Yeah you are going to DIYS but few of us have access to a machine shop...


 
Quote from: Seek;411516
But factory GT40(p) based motors are cheap and can easily get people up above 250 RWHP, 300+ crank. Those things are great for the price with many pulls selling for under $500.



If you're rebuilding a 302/5.0 I would skip the GT40(P) heads and go straight to some good aluminum heads (AFR, Edelbrock, Trick Flow etc.). I had GT40Ps on my car for several years and last year switched to Edelbrock Performers. Based on trap speed I picked up 40 hp with no other mods but the heads. It's like a night and day difference from the GT40Ps.

If you don't have the money for aluminum heads (you're looking at around $1200 for a pair) the GT40/GT40Ps will be a nice improvement over the stock E6/E7 heads. Don't forget any head you get from the yard is going to need to be rebuilt, upping the price of a "good deal" used head.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 20, 2013, 08:45:31 PM
BTW 300hp+ on the street is stupid fast, even in a 3700lb+ car like my Thunderbird. Hell the 2012 Mustang in my garage has a 305hp and I can't even use the car to its full potential on the street. I can only imagine how crazy a 400hp+ street car is. Crazy? Yes. Fun as hell? Yes, based on the 2012 Mustang GT I test drove.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 20, 2013, 09:00:23 PM
My supercharged Marauder dynoed at 430Hp to the rear wheels, for approx a 4500Lb ride including me it was a lot of fun(yeah it's gone, sold it this past Sat)...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Tbird-fanatic on March 20, 2013, 09:11:28 PM
Gekell where in Iowa are you located? Im just across the river from Dubuque. Oh and the A4LD wont have a chance in hell of living at 15psi, thats why my car was swapped to a 5 speed. The auto was toast. I say that, but I also know where there is an auto that possibly has been rebuilt recently.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Haystack on March 20, 2013, 09:50:00 PM
Just curious what kinda mpg you guys were knocking down with your 2.3's.

I have averaged 30mpg with the stock aod and s.o. 5.0.

I got some where between 28 and 32mpg(just an estimate, 493 miles plus some around town before my trip), only got $50 back in it and still had about 1/4 tank. That was with a couple hundred pounds of tools and luggage and hitting 75-85mph for about 5 hours with a couple of stops to strech my legs.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Big B on March 20, 2013, 10:02:22 PM
Quote from: Gekell;411534
Big b do you have any post or whatever on your project cause I want to see how it goes for you:) good luck!

Thanks. It's in the User Rides section. Most of my project and a lot of the work I have done has went undocumented though, just started documenting it when the body/paint work began. It will probably end up becoming more than just a body/paint work thread though, as I begin to build the 2.3, so feel free to check out my progress anytime. Good luck to you with your 5.0 Bird build as well!
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 21, 2013, 05:36:48 AM
First
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Haystack on March 21, 2013, 08:01:02 AM
I've never ran into another turbo coupe on the road, or seen one driveable. Which is kinda crazy, because I often see 3-5 different cougar/birds about every month. I get comments all the time about how people didn't think tbirds ever came with a v-8...

I honestly don't see any point in building up a 351 based block. You can easily get over 347ci out of a 302 and have the smaller mains and get more rpm's from the much lighter rotating assembly. If your starting from scratch, it really isn't much more to go with an aftermarket block. I dream of a big bore 302 to un-shroud the valves and allow you to actually use the extra air of most aftermarket heads.

The 2.3's at least don't split in half with a stock block and 500+hp. I've seen a couple of svo guys locally in the 6-800rwhp range with a stock bottem end.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Masejoer on March 21, 2013, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;411539
If you're rebuilding a 302/5.0 I would skip the GT40(P) heads and go straight to some good aluminum heads (AFR, Edelbrock, Trick Flow etc.).

Agreed. Many find <100k explorer motors though, which can easily run for another 100k. I quite dislike the P-heads I've been using. My TW heads should be just about done at the shop. Above 9.5:1 compression and the better flow, with a freshly ported intake, should work quite well for me, even without other changes. It will be great, along with my other modifications, and some new windows (rear quarters will no longer be deteriorated!). The Bird's looking up.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 21, 2013, 01:50:13 PM
The GT40/GT40P heads are a nice improvement over E6/E7 heads but can't hold a candle to aftermarket aluminum heads. You can port the bejesus out of the GT40/GT40P and they'll maybe flow just as good as a nice aluminum head does out of the box.

You should be happy with the TW heads. The Edelbrocks I have don't flow quite as much as a TW but it was still a "holy shiznit" moment in power vs the GT40Ps.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 21, 2013, 02:31:09 PM
If I had a TC and wanted to keep it a 2.3T, I'd get a Ranger 2.3L Duratec (have to make mounts), a Focus ST 2.3L head, a T5 bell to fit the Duratec-HE (yes, they are available) and a T3 d header.  I'd side mount the factory turbo (at least at first) and set up a front air to air.  I'd run the Focus ST PCM with a tune, and...

...well anyway.  That's where I'd go with a TC.  V8's are awesome, too.  But I'd want to do something I've never heard of before.  I thought about the Volvo head trick, but there's too much custom engine fab for my taste, and besides; it's played.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Masejoer on March 21, 2013, 02:56:19 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;411568
The GT40/GT40P heads are a nice improvement over E6/E7 heads but can't hold a candle to aftermarket aluminum heads. You can port the bejesus out of the GT40/GT40P and they'll maybe flow just as good as a nice aluminum head does out of the box.

You should be happy with the TW heads. The Edelbrocks I have don't flow quite as much as a TW but it was still a "holy shiznit" moment in power vs the GT40Ps.

I sure hope so. The heads themselves were toast with bad valves and guides so $900 in parts and machine work later, I should have some very nice heads. I don't know if I'm breaking even, or if I should have just gone with new heads from the start. Heads + TF 1.7RRs for $700, $900 in machine work with them being taken down to 54cc from 61 and much better guides, some bowl work, 5-angle valve job, etc. I assume new heads would have cost me $1100 + $200 rockers + $300 in machine work to get them to the same standard. It makes the price of AFR225s for a 408 seem like nothing.

I really could use a different cam, but the ones I'd be interested in require 1.6 ratio RR's, and I removed a bit of the ptv clearance so it'd be questionable on what would even work. I'm thinking stick with what I have until/if I move up to a larger motor, and hopefully the last one. When is electric going to hurry up so I move on to a 500kW motor with future battery tech providing a 500 mile range? I assume we'll die before then...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Soul on March 21, 2013, 03:15:52 PM
I've done this actually and thought I'd share my insights. Dropping in a v8 won't be as cheap or easy to upgrade unless you do it all at once up front. You can find an explorer motor for pretty cheap though which is a good start, but turning the boost up on your 2.3 is just about as much fun. If you have a stick behind your 2.3 you can have a lot of fun for cheap, stock block will take alot of abuse but then you are going to run out of injector at a point and have to look at a quarter horse or megasquirt and go up in injectors. Next you are going to have to step up clutch and this isn't to painful either, just need an adapter and new flywheel (Think Stinger has both of these still). You might even upgrade turbos and headers at this point depending on what you go with this can be expensive or cheap and fun also, stinger used to sell a cheap header and a holset is pretty cheap. I guess what I'm trying to say is you can have alot of fun with the 2.3 and do incremental upgrades for 3-500 a pop be down for a weekend and have a smile come Monday. Having said that I have a 331 in my TC now with aftermarket fuel injection and a c4 (3speed auto). Only big change I wish I made is going with an aftermarket block with my forged internals so I can run some boost, at the time I didn't know 302 blocks were bad about splitting.

This is my experience and I'm sure others have gotten different mileage than I have :P
PS: My 2.3 with 65mm tb upgraded guts and a holset got around 25 ish if I was nice to it, the 331 is like somewhere in the mid teens for gas mileage but I don't drive it so nice.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Soul on March 21, 2013, 03:17:25 PM
OH PS:

Didnt read most of this thread just beginning and end, but if you do go v8 Long Tube headers SUCK to put in and changing a starter / dropping trans is a PITA!
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Big B on March 21, 2013, 07:13:02 PM
Quote from: Haystack;411559
I've never ran into another turbo coupe on the road, or seen one driveable.

Same here, only ever seen one other around here, and it was in the junkyard with a smashed in drivers side. From what I've read most of them where electrically problematic (mine was), and probably ended up being junked early on, at the first sign of expensive failure, and most likely the A4LD or Turbo was the first thing to go in most of them. Wish I could find more in the yards around here, so I could start ding the parts.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 88turbo on March 21, 2013, 07:18:39 PM
can someone tell me why when someone asks a question about a build...  the subject always get thrown off and people start discussing other things in a guys thread?  not trying to step on anyone's toes but if you want to discuss heads and what not, make your own thread.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 21, 2013, 09:24:06 PM
Quote from: Gekell;411370
So I have a 1987
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 22, 2013, 12:01:24 AM
But ya know Tom, not everyone is interested in...

Quote from: TOM Renzo;411588
I spend money I don't have, To build cars I don't need, To impress people I don't know


Not everyone has access to cubic dollars...

If he wants to build a flat tappet, std headed 5.0, it's his business and surely not yours or mine... A fairly peppy performer can be built on a reasonable budget, stop trying to impress your will on other members of this board, it just  the most of us off...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 22, 2013, 12:24:44 AM
Quote from: 88turbo;411582
can someone tell me why when someone asks a question about a build...  The subject always get thrown off and people start discussing other things in a guys thread?  Not trying to step on anyone's toes but if you want to discuss heads and what not, make your own thread.

 

thank you!!!!
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 22, 2013, 05:49:51 AM
[quote=t
 

wow
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Chuck W on March 22, 2013, 12:37:01 PM
So, the OP asked for help with a swap...not OPINIONS on his swap. Keep that in mind when replying.

Also, to the OP.  I moved the posts regarding the body kits to the proper location.  This is the Engine Tech section, so please try not to clutter up your own threads with other non-applicable questions.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Chrome on March 22, 2013, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;411594
A flat motor costs the same with machine work as doing a roller.

 OR DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT!!!!


 
It would cost money to buy a different block. He already owns the flat tappet block. That is why I suggest to just buy a peppy flat tappet cam. Nice cams are available in non-roller.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 88turbo on March 22, 2013, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: Chuck W;411610
So, the OP asked for help with a swap...not OPINIONS on his swap. Keep that in mind when replying.

Also, to the OP.  I moved the posts regarding the body kits to the proper location.  This is the Engine Tech section, so please try not to clutter up your own threads with other non-applicable questions.

Thanks Chuck
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 88turbo on March 22, 2013, 04:39:51 PM
Quote from: Chrome;411612
It would cost money to buy a different block. He already owns the flat tappet block. That is why I suggest to just buy a peppy flat tappet cam. Nice cams are available in non-roller.

its not hard to make a flat tappet block into a roller block.  it can be done.....
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 22, 2013, 05:14:25 PM
Yep
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 22, 2013, 10:56:46 PM
Most the sky is falling if you use todays oils and you'll wipe your cam is baloney, there still 700-800 ppm of zddp which is as much or more than was in the '60s motor oil... No I wouldn't use most of todays oils in my .700 lift 400Lb spring race motor but for the average mild street engine they are fine...

Mobil 1 0W-40 has 1100 ppm and is some of the best off the shelf oil there is... A 40W or 50W isn't required to limit zinc to the extent the 20W & 30W have(though many have)... Valvoline VR1 oils also contain a healthy dose...

Excepting for a few brands(Castrol comes o mind) anyone that would like to check can look on line for their oil's PDS and find out what's in it...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: bigbada1 on March 23, 2013, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;411622

There is also another alternative but if i post it all HELL WILL BREAK LOOSE!! Once again i stand corrected from all the pressure.

LOL You have no idea the contemplating I did going back and forth on my current project before deciding to go with another 5.0.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 23, 2013, 08:29:22 AM
ffff
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 23, 2013, 08:36:20 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;411640
????????????????????????

http://cars.yakaz.com/1988-turbo-coupe-for-sale#lo=4&docid=0004tne5cb2hv00e
 

I assume you're ???????????????????? about the guy asking 12k.  But what has that got to to with this thread?  Maybe I missed the connection.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 23, 2013, 08:40:14 AM
Ok h
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 23, 2013, 09:12:19 AM
Tom, just let the guy V8 convert already.  He's already decided, he's got stuff, if it doesn't work out the way he thinks it will, he'll just have to do it again.  Everyone's journey with these cars is unique, why shouldn't his be?
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 88turbo on March 23, 2013, 10:42:56 AM
it was said before Tom........


Not everyone lives by this
I spend money I don't have, To build cars I don't need, To impress people I don't know

in all honestly its his car, he came here for advice on the swap and not someone to tell him how he wants to build HIS car.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 88turbo on March 23, 2013, 10:44:31 AM
Btw Tom, I am building another 5.0 for my swapped turbo coupe because its what I want to do
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 23, 2013, 12:10:51 PM
Well the block is cracked so I'm not going to be messing with that any longer.
I called junk yards for an engine all I found was a Grand Marquis and a Town Car, and a few trucks... I don't have any years for them though. I'm going to call back on that but what do you think on those v8 I want to stray away from trucks just cause their built a bit different...

What about getting a modular v8 out of the newer mustangs? Their easier to find but how much would pure conversion cost be??
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 23, 2013, 12:20:25 PM
hhh
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 88turbo on March 23, 2013, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Gekell;411651
Well the block is cracked so I'm not going to be messing with that any longer.
I called junk yards for an engine all I found was a Grand Marquis and a Town Car, and a few trucks... I don't have any years for them though. I'm going to call back on that but what do you think on those v8 I want to stray away from trucks just cause their built a bit different...

What about getting a modular v8 out of the newer mustangs? Their easier to find but how much would pure conversion cost be??

If you want some good power, get a 5.0 from an explorer and install an HO cam.  Easy enough
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Chooglin on March 23, 2013, 03:08:18 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;411652
Sorry for the confusion and my thoughts. Actually i should have know better. My mistake!!
Exactly , you are constantly trolling for an argument.I don't like butting in on these types of threads,but frankly,I am sick of you wrecking threads.
nobody wants to get on here and see this BS every other week.....................I am done ranting now,good day.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 23, 2013, 03:30:21 PM
What year did they stop using the V8 EFI in the explorers?

Can you block people from threads?
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Haystack on March 23, 2013, 03:52:29 PM
You can block any user by clicking on their user name, its in the drop down thingy.

The v-8's (302's anyways...) ended in about 2001. I believe they started in 1996.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 23, 2013, 04:24:42 PM
Best bet these days is a Explorer engine, unfortunately they are "dressed" differently than the orig 5.0 in Birds, Stangs etc of the era... By that I mean the electrical configuration is entirely different, uses crank sensor, coil packs(no distributor), etc...

I'd recommend looking for a 5.0 Bird/Coug parts car to help with all the little pieces necessary... I found one for $100 when I did my swap, was worth more like $500 for all the parts...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 88turbo on March 23, 2013, 07:14:58 PM
there are also some odds and ends that you will need to find to make the explorer engine work, but the block is the same as a fox 5.0 engine.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 23, 2013, 10:01:41 PM
What's the latest Thunder I can you for an easy switch? its a 1989 correct????
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 23, 2013, 10:06:27 PM
88 sorry
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 23, 2013, 10:13:05 PM
1987 or 1988 preferred, 1986 should be OK as well... 1989 was the first year of the MN-12 chassis, didn't even offer a V8... The '91-'93 Bird 5.0 HO would be a good choice but few other parts would be useable for your swap...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 23, 2013, 10:24:24 PM
Thanks A lot! I just found a a website with over 200 pages of just salvage tbirds for sale (not the exact years I'm looking for but still)! Pumped!
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on March 24, 2013, 10:57:20 AM
if it comes down to the fact that you  cannot find a good roller block, power can still be made with a flat tappet cam. all these issues people say they always have, I've never had with my 302 in my mustang. with a flat tappet torker 2 cam. the car runs great. good driveability. and runs low 9's in the 1/8th. don't let anyone discourage you on what YOU want to do. its your car. Do what you want, the good thing about the internet, is people have probably done it before, and are willing to help. on anything car wise. Don't let Tom discourage you.  He Trolls threads for his own amusp00get.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 24, 2013, 07:03:29 PM
Ok 8
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Chuck W on March 24, 2013, 07:43:33 PM
If people don't chill the hell out, there will be involuntary vacations from the forum.

No more name-calling, and no more whining about people not listening to what you have to say.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on March 24, 2013, 09:00:10 PM
No, i'm done with this. Quite honestly, if someone has a different opinion, its an issue with you. I understand that you have years of experience, but so do i. I don't need to stuff it in anyways face. You don't need to tell me anything about "roundy round" cars.i work for a ARCA team, and just got back from DAytona less then a month ago, so enlighten me.  WERE NOT racing "roundy round", not the subject.  the kid has a flat tappet block he wanted to build. ON A BUDGET. and this would have been a solution. So i added my two cents. There are other options. if a flat tappet cam is so bad, why has my car ran since 86. on the same cam. i understand it isnt the best technology anymore, but its still available and can be used.  DONT you question my intelligence. EVER.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Big B on March 24, 2013, 09:11:53 PM
Wow, great job shiznitting up the new guys thread. Gekell we are not all like this here, so don't run away.

I don't think people understand how much time they waste out of their lives trying to push their opinions on others over an internet forum. I think more would be gained for you expending that energy out in the world actually doing something. Like working on your car. Just my 2 cents, take it how you will.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 24, 2013, 09:17:33 PM
Any ways back on topic. If you're looking for front dress (timing cover, water pump, accessory brackets, accessories, fan, fan shroud) any 86-88 Thunderbird or Cougar with a 5.0 will work. Also any Mark VIIs from 1986-1992 have the same front dress as 86-88 Thunderbirds and Cougars.

It's also possible the front dress from an 86-93 5.0 Mustang might work as well. I know they had a slightly different front dress due to a lower hood line.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on March 24, 2013, 09:23:25 PM
I found on ebay where they sell engines yanked out of Crown Vics and Grand Marquis most are stripped of the AC unit, tranny, starter, alternator, transfercase, air pump, and a few others.
But they do have all of the wiring harnesses and fuel system. They seem to be all right around $300-$350. All have over 100k on miles.

a few questions on it.
1 has anyone else bought these?
2 good buy?
3 how much more needed
4 should i try to rebuild and get more hp and torque or let it stay at 160ish hp and 270 toque? <-iffy question soooooo yeah
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 24, 2013, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: Gekell;411761
I found on ebay where they sell engines yanked out of Crown Vics and Grand Marquis most are stripped of the AC unit, tranny, starter, alternator, transfercase, air pump, and a few others.
But they do have all of the wiring harnesses and fuel system. They seem to be all right around $300-$350. All have over 100k on miles.

a few questions on it.
1 has anyone else bought these?
2 good buy?
3 how much more needed
4 should i try to rebuild and get more hp and torque or let it stay at 160ish hp and 270 toque? <-iffy question soooooo yeah

The engine long block and timing cover/oil pan are the same. The rest of the stuff may or may not work as I'm not sure. The fuel rails might be different. I wouldn't use the wiring harness from the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. It is a different animal than the Fox harness.

If you're going to rebuild the engine (which I would recommend) you can modify the engine to make what ever power level you want :).
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 24, 2013, 10:08:40 PM
If I had a cracked flat tappet block and I was going back to the drawing board for an engine donor, I'd go with a 96 or 97 Explorer 5.0.  Here's why:
1. GT40 - heads, upper and lower intakes, 65mm throttlebody, internal EGR, easy headers.
2. Roller - I believe this has already been covered in sufficient detail.
3. Short nose water pump/accessories - If you use explorer's complete front dress, you get a quieter P/S pump, a better water pump, a 3G alternator and NO smog pump, not to mention more clearance for a better radiator and electric fan.

This isn't to say you'll have the easiest time of installing it, you'll have to pull the coils and cam synchro and replace it with a distributor, you'll have to rearrange the way you connect vacuum, you'll have to come up with a shorter coolant inlet hose (because of the oil cooler), you'll have to swap the oil pan and pickup, and you'll have to have AC hoses made and you'll want to swap out the teeny little Explorer cam for an HO cam (to keep the computer happy).  You will need headers (HO stockers at least), you'll want an H-Pipe, and you'll have to get Mark VII mid-pipes to connect the H to the lers.  You'll be rewarded with around 270-280 HP.  You can reduce the obstacles by using a T-Bird/Cougar/Mark VII accessory dress, but in giving up some difficulties, you'll also give up some of those secondary benefits.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on March 24, 2013, 10:19:36 PM
sometimes you can find some pretty decent deals within the company i work for. LKQ. they tend to get rid of the older stuff and give it away at great deals. might be something to look into.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: bodyman on March 24, 2013, 10:23:44 PM
Just searched http://www.car-part.com for 96 Explorer 5.0 and found a few here in Iowa from $325-$750. Did not search for 97's. Not sure where you are at, but I bet a yard somewhere close to you has one.

1996
Engine
Ford Explorer GOOD 5.0L--JOEL,NTS 74,000 A 010186 $750 Carney Auto Parts - QRP Central USA-IA(Ames) Request_Quote 1-888-262-3808 Please Call Ahead Request_Insurance_Quote
 
1996
Engine
Ford Explorer 5.0,AT,8-95,MFI,RWD,175 COMP 199,101 A L60786 $325 Northend Wrecking - QRP Central USA-IA(Dubuque) Request_Quote 1-800-545-8885

1996
Engine
Ford Explorer 165000    3884 $400 Olsen's Auto Salvage USA-IA(Rowley) Request_Quote 1-877-499-4174 Request_Insurance_Quote

1996
Engine
Ford Explorer STARTS AND RUNS 141,000 A VI12 $500 Dons Auto and Truck Salvage USA-IA(Des-Moines) Request_Quote 1-800-372-6000 Request_Insurance_Quote
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on September 08, 2013, 12:04:13 AM
Hey! I haven't been on this thread for awhile but I found a 1994 Mercury Cougar 5.0L 4 speed auto (totaled) for sale and i was wondering how much of that would work and are the transmissions different than what would be in an 87 or 88 bird/cougar?
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on December 07, 2013, 06:36:32 PM
So I don't think anyone still really follows this thread but I'd like to mention that i have found a donor for this project. A 1988 Mercury Cougar XR7 parts car that someone from this forum had and used for the interior Seats, etc.. SO PROJECT IS A GO!!! Will be starting tear down Monday. :shakeass: :burnout:
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: STANG8U on December 07, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
Sweet
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: vinnietbird on December 07, 2013, 08:04:24 PM
Nice. Updates and pics are great.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: xjeffs on December 07, 2013, 11:41:39 PM
Quote from: Gekell;425348
So I don't think anyone still really follows this thread but I'd like to mention that i have found a donor for this project. A 1988 Mercury Cougar XR7 parts car that someone from this forum had and used for the interior Seats, etc.. SO PROJECT IS A GO!!! Will be starting tear down Monday. :shakeass: :burnout:

What a coincidence! I just sold a 1988 Cougar XR7 parts car today!  Good luck Grant, and good dealing with you. Let me know if you need any help.  I'm looking forward to seeing how your project turns out.

Jeff
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on January 23, 2014, 03:55:42 PM
So parts car is coming apart decent only thing i need to get the motor out is mounts and fuel line. Where can I get the fuel line disconnect tool for 88 cougar lines, also if someone could give a web address for it too that'd be appreciated.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 23, 2014, 04:02:53 PM
Anyplace they sell auto parts.  Seriously.  Anywhere.  Napa, autozone, advance autoparts, carquest, parts plus, etc.  Anyplace.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on January 23, 2014, 11:52:23 PM
Alright thanks.

Vinnie I'll upload some pictures of the parts car before it was stripped.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on January 30, 2014, 02:05:13 PM
I got the correct tool and I'm sure of that, but I'm still having trouble trying to get the fuel lines disconnected.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 30, 2014, 03:25:31 PM
Make sure the spring in the spring lock is free to expand and move. sometimes they rust to the outer shell and you can't get them to disengage.  If that's the case, you'll have to use a pick to brute force the spring out of the spring lock and then locate a replacement spring.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on February 07, 2014, 02:07:37 PM
So I finally removed the engine! I feel proud not going to lie it was cool to finally see this thing come out. Yes it would've been nice to have it out oh a month or so ago but its to late now. I'll upload some photos of the engine out. Don't have any pictures of it coming out. I did get the motor to come out without having to remove the fuel lines, I'll get that done soon though so I can keep the rails. It'll be on its way to get torn  down and built next monday if everything pans out right. Probably wont if it goes like the rest of this project.
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on February 08, 2014, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: Gekell;428583
I did get the motor to come out without having to remove the fuel lines, I'll get that done soon though so I can keep the rails. It'll be on its way to get torn  down and built next monday if everything pans out right. Probably wont if it goes like the rest of this project.

How'd you manage that??? I assume you pulled injector fuel lines and moved them aside???

Anyway you'll need the 5.0 lines so don't damage them, are different from 2.3...
Title: 1987 ThunderBird Turbo Coupe to 5.0Li and AOD
Post by: Gekell on February 08, 2014, 11:41:43 PM
Yeah I took fuel rails of the injectors and set it aside while I removed the motor