So I have sent off my '67 Mustang that i am restoring off to paint. I'm buying the paint for the painter, so i have a question. What is a good mid range Paint Brand? Thanks
The only mid-range paint that I have used lately, and can vouch for as being worth the money, has been Eastwood's Single Stage Urethane paints. Which I will say, is a good product at only around $120 a gallon. I've been using their stuff for a few mid-range driver quality restoration paint jobs here and there, for about a year now, and it seems to hold up really well. Never had a single complaint. Sprays and lays down really nice as well. I'm gonna be using their Primer/Base/Clear on my '88 TC soon, since that car will only be a mid-range, driver quality car (more concerned with going fast, than looking immaculate). On my Lincolns, I use PPG products exclusively, which are much more expensive, but worth the money, if you are going high-end.
Wouldn't that depend on what the painter has experience with? There are some small differences between paint brands which can completely change the quality of the finished product. People who do it day in and day out perfect how to spray some paints. Also, is this just paint, or is all the bodywork still needed? If the body work has been done, that may also affect the paint choices.
I went with Shop line witch is a ppg product great for overall but wont match on a repair
We switched from PPG's shop-line to the Sherwin Williams ATX line. Of course I do spray it every day. But on occasion I spray SW's Ultra 700. Fantastic paint. Sorry Big B but I like the SW alot better.
OP, find out what your painter is familiar with then go that route.
SIKKENS or LASERUS for the high end cars and built cars. Beater cars i think he used PPG. I am not a body man JR IS. But he tells me WATER is what he uses now and we are completely changed over to it. From what he tells me the base coat is not as critical as the CLEAR. If the Clear is shiznit the paint wont last and breaks down and gets YELLOW. My state if i am not mistaken has to be water compliant by the end of 2014 not 100% Will ask JR today at work. Thanks
:hick::hick:
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-160_zps7621b12b-1_zps17a062f9.jpg)
always use a paint your painter is used to spraying, or it could cost more in the long run.
No need to say sorry bro, you prefer what you prefer, and I'm sure you have good reason. They are stuck on PPG here, they have some kind of contract at the shop, and it's all that they stock the shop with for the most part. I get a discount buying from them, so I usually don't buy from anywhere else. The paint is top of the line, and sprays/lays like it. I use the eastwood line on some of our cheaper driver quality projects, and it has been working out great. Those vehicles sit out in the sun all day long, and of the people who opted for clearcoat as well, not a single person complained of any UV fading, even when I talked them them again over a year later. For the price, it has several higher end paints beaten hands down, which is what made me decide to give it a try on my TC. I'm not a "dealer" of eastwood paint or anything, nor do I care if anyone buys it or not, just relaying my experience to someone looking for a known and proven good mid-range paint.
I've shot transstar, sikkens,ppg, martin senour, and planet color. Each one of them shot great. Martin senour I have the most experience with it lays down really nice and covers very well. Trans star 2k primer is one of the best that I've shot
Just spoke to JR tonight and he told me that single stage paint will not last more than 2 years in the weather if that. This is from him not me. I am not a body man. All i do is pay the bills!!!!!
JR did tell me the same thing. He has to do test patterns on just about every paint he uses. He told me every paint and every color is different. One size does not fit all. You are correct daminc as he agrees with your post 100%
I don't understand this? Sure a single stage has its drawbacks, and its benefits, but a paint layer is a paint layer. A single state urethane will last forever. Many cars come from the factory with single stage paint jobs. Clear coat wasn't used much before the 1980s, and that is where a lot of the 80's vehicles get their peeling clearcoat issues from - the idea was too new and not yet perfected.
Did paint from old hotrods fall off after 2 years? The lacquers were pretty weak, but they were also easy to touch up.
I can only speak about Dupont Chroma Premier system paints but the chroma premier or chroma one s/s urethane will hold up fine in the weather for decades and is very durable. They do cost about as much as a base/clear job for the materials. They also sand and buff very hard. I would stay away from the acrylic enamel s/s as they will fade and need much more maintenance such as buffing and waxing yearly.
In a shop setting I agree that sticking with what the painter is familiar with is very important. If your painter is a hobbyist and/or just doesn't care what brand, just make sure to get the product data sheets when you order the paint and read them carefully. Any brand of paint needs the correct film thickness for UV protection. Some clears can achieve this in 2 coats, others take 3, same goes for s/s paints. Many good choices have already been talked about, for midrange paint I would go with martin senour, but have not used it myself in about 15 years.
^agreed. Not sure if renzo was even in the same conversation as us here, lol. :hick:
Most Single Stage Urethanes will easily last for 5-10 years in direct sunlight, before starting to break down. Metallic paints should always be clearcoated for added UV protection though, as they tend to fade much faster than solid colors.
Once again B is laughing at me. I was just chiming in. From what i know about painting single stage is not something i want on my car. Just saying. With that carry on B always a PLEASURE. Have a nice DAY as usual!!
As i am actually banned from the paint shop by JR. I really dont know why. Here is the stuff he uses. just saying. Once again i am not a painter. I just let JR do his thing and i pay the bills. I know he goes to training where they actually measure the thickness of the material he lays down on a test panel. Either MB or RR paint Speaze or something like that. just saying that's all
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/670afca5.jpg)
I don't know much about painting either, but if you think about it, why can't a base/single stage paint be as durable as clear? With the single stage, you just need the surface to maintain a good finish. With clear, you need the surface of the clear, and all of its depth, to remain intact to look good and not become yellow. With clearcoat, people cut and buff the surface to get rid of damaged layers. With single stage, you can do the same.
Clearcoat is easier to touch up if defects or damage don't go all the way through to the base coat. With a single stage, you have to deal with color matching in order to touch things up. Clear also provides decent gloss and depth, which was lost as paints were required to change some 40 years ago.
An SSU by itself actually can be as durable, if not more, and many people choose to not clearcoat over SSU's on their vehicles. The point of applying clearcoat over an SSU is for the added UV protection, as well as the extra Gloss and Depth that comes from the clear. Also of course as everyone knows, maintenance and touch-up is much easier with a clearcoated vehicle. Road Tar/Bugs/etc will be much easier to clean off, as they can't stick anywhere near as steadfast to the clear.
Why couldn't the base coat have the same properties as the clear? If it's % of volume, then fine, but I don't see how clear would protect any better. The clear would get the abuse rather than the base color, and both would need maintenance as it ages.
The Clear coat is much harder and durable. No high end car comes single stage. Toyota is known for bad paint on some models. I am told that whites and blacks are single stage on some models. That is why they look so py after a couple of years down the road.
If you go with martin senour, don't let a sales rep get you to buy a clear called ipc15. Its good stuff for touchups, but the 15 is there for a reason. 15 minute dry time sandable in 20. Its pretty py for overalls. But their system is dirt easy to use.
A good Clearcoat has far more UV resistance. Do some quick research, you will see the same things I have been telling you.
Why can't a single stage be formulated to be as durable? The clear and base must have similar properties for one to stick to another I just don't understand why the single stage couldn't be the same, but with color added in. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some product lines of single stage paint that
are the same as clear in all aspects excluding transparency.
I'm not looking for he said/she said. I'm curious about the actual composition and statistics that show the differences, and why they are different. Why couldn't a single stage have the same UV resistance? My only uneducated guess is that since the clear is, well, clear, it allows the light to penetrate deeper to distribute the damage. With a single stage paint, the surface is opaque and would take on most of the sun's rays.
Compositions and scientific data is not something that quick research would turn up.
Well, your uneducated guess is pretty far off base, no one should fault you for ignorance though, we all had to learn to some point. These are FACTS, not he/she said bs..., but what do I know, I just do this everyday for a living, and have 100's of satisfied local customers who will only bring their rides to me for body/paint work.
You can find all the answers you seek with 5mins of searching on google. I don't have the time to spoonfeed them to you right now.
What I've got from Google searching is:
- Clearcoat takes on the UV rays rather than the color base coat, preventing the base color from changing (both can be protected and buffed to keep in like-new condition)
- Single stage works fine if you buff it out as often as people should do the same on clearcoat
- Base/clear provides more depth before a scratches reaches the base coat. I'm not sure how this would be different versus spraying the same amount of paint/layers, but all in single stage vs base/clear.
- A car with single stage and a car with base/clear, left out in the sun for years, will both have their topmost paint layers broken down by UV damage. Both may require taking it completely down and repainting.
- Single stage urethane is as durable as a urethane clear
- Some say that people with lower experience should shoot with single stage, while others recommend the same people shoot with base/clear.
I was unable to find a forum dedicated to automotive painting that has a user base full of people with OCD that I could get technical information and actual tests from. I would hope for something similar to bobistheoilguy, but for automotive painting. Any ideas? The closest I got was:
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aautogeekonline.net+single+stage+durability
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aautobody101.com+durability+single+stage
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acustompaintforum.com+durability+single+stage
People rave about single stage paints over on autobody101, so again, I don't see how one has any actual benefit over the other. The clear will just retain somewhat of a gloss with neglect while single stage will dull a bit more. Both look excellent with proper maintenance or a cut and buff.
From a protection stand point alone the b/c and s/s urethanes are not much different. The benefits of base coats are the ability to spray high metallic paints with much better flake control and for the use of high pearl contents. Some b/c colors are not even available to spray as a s/s. It is also much easier to blend base coats for color match purposes on repairs. When we replace a door we always blend the paint into the frt fender and rear door or quarter panel. The base can be sprayed part way into the panels and tapered off and then the panels are completely clear coated. Any shop that talks about a perfect color match is using this process. When you blend a s/s you are forced to paint part of the panel and buff out the blended area, this causes the blend area to have an insufficient film build and will not hold up over time.
I would not use a s/s on a customers car unless asked to do so, and could not talk them out of it. I would also never put clear over a s/s, not saying that you can't. In the dupont line s/s urethanes cost more than the base coat of the same color, then to apply clear coat over it not only makes it cost more, it creates a very high film thickness. While this may add a "depth" appearance, there is a line between having enough film thickness and too much. If you are building a show queen that won't ever see a rock chip it doesn't much matter how much paint you pile on. Get some rocks thrown at that paint job and you will see one down side to all of that film thickness. It not only chips easier, they are much deeper.