I have a 88 thunderbird lx 5.0 i swapped to ho with t-5 now I just put the 255 walbro in and seem to have new problems, before the car broke down on me when you would give it gas as to not save flooring it but just giving it gas to get on down the road it would have a bad hesitation in it you could hear it trying to go but it just wouldnt go, when it broke down it kinda did the same thing but when I gave it gas to take off it just bogged out and shut off like it had ran out of gas and wouldnt crank back, I just changed the fuel pump and filter, it has a brand new msd coil and I swapped distributors out to make sure it wasnt the ingnition control module, any idea's its my only transportain so any thoughts would be excelent.
I'm almost wondering if the computer was going bad and finally went out, i swapped in a used da1
Run codes.
Check for fuel pressure, if you don't have a tester, then unhook your fuel filter line into a gas can turn the key and see how much gas your getting out of it.
I dont have a code reader and i will check for fuel pressure tomorrow.
You don't have a paperclip?
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2471.0.html
Stick a paperclip in the connector like the show. If your check engine light works, you can watch that sitting in the drivers seat. If it doesn't, get a test light, or a 12v lightbulb and hook it up as shown.
seems to be getting a fair amount of fuel unhooked the filter and it sprayed me in the face eyes and all so id say it has good pressure i have not done the codes yet I swapped in a reman computer with no luck.
Pull codes. Don't throw parts at it. Also the EECs VERY rarely fail so I don't know why I'm seeing so much blaming on this forum lately on them. Also fuel pressure doesn't mean a thing unless you have a gauge on the fuel system to MEASURE actual pressure.
This.
Cracking open a line, or pushing in the Schrader valve to "test" for fuel is pretty much useful only to determine if there is fuel pressure..unless you're a psychic, there's little use to in doing this. If the car runs, most likely fuel pressure isn't an issue.
yeah I cant get it to crank it almost acts like there is no fuel in the tank but there is around 6 gallons in it. Would a bad regulator cause this or a bad tps sensor its set at .95 i checked it today but just a thought I dont have access to alot of tools as in fuel pressure gauge and all that good stuff, I'm trying to wrap my head around how to pull the codes but can't grasp how you do it haaha, as in how to tell which code it is trowing.
update guys the car isnt getting fire, as I said before I changed the distributor out which included the ignition control module, any other ideas changed coils out also. Is there a ignition relay or something?
OK disconnect the 60 pin ECM plug and see if you have spark. Also test the positive side of the coil to see if you have battery at that point. Post back with results!!
I will do that in the am it is cold as out there and misting haha thanks.
I checked the coil tom it has power on the hot side of the connector.
I believe the EEC will act different when you hold the throttle down and try cranking? I used to have issues (I forgot about this until now - perhaps I still have them...) where I'd get into a state of bad idle and then the engine would still. Trying to crank again would not start unless I went WOT and cranked it. I THINK this will try to insert more fuel, to at least account for the throttle body being open more? I thought I remember reading somewhere that the EEC senses the WOT and does something different more than just compensate for the expected airflow with the open throttle.
I'm curious if you find the engine acting any different if you try this. Does it ever sound like a couple cylinders fire once or twice?
I'm going to assume that it's not easy to get to any store. Even with low fuel pressure, after enough cranking at WOT I'd expect to hear a couple cylinders fire occasionally, as the fuel eventually adds up in the cylinders. If you do get occasional fires, it should be either fuel pressure or timing (including spark plug wires being in the wrong spots) related. If you never hear ignition, you should be looking at spark.
I'm sure if you had some time and needed the car running (you said it's your only transportation, but what's the '04 in your sig?), someone could walk you through by phone or chat diagnosing the problem so you could get your Bird up and running. I know the occasional message through the forum won't get you very far very quickly, especially if you can't easily get to stores, or don't have the money (unlikely since you're throwing parts at the car?), to get the tools needed to diagnose the problem.
Actually, I remember some page I stumbled across years ago that provides a very nice list of steps to check for no-start conditions. I have NO idea what it is now. I will look. Does anyone have any idea what the EEC-IV no-start troubleshooting page is or what I am talking about?
Edit:
I can't find it...it may have been related to a forum post, but I think it was a webpage with a lot of weird formatting.
You can start here though, which seems to provide some troubleshooting steps, but the list isn't exhaustive like the one I am trying to remember: http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/5-0l-tech/120806-fuel-injected-mustangs-crank-no-start-checklist.html
Pulling codes: http://www.amopower.com/eec-iv.htm
The first step for trouble shooting any probem should be to check codes imho.
I'llfind you a link to a good no start thread, but you can rule out the computer basically as long as you have fuel pressure of any sort. Next most likely is a sensor or timing issue.
http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=588.0
Not sure it will help any, where the car will start and run though. This is where codes come in handy.
OK, what exactly does the engine do when you turn the key?
What is the exact fuel pressure, in pounds?
(Oreilly and such rent fuel pressure testers. This is a key thing, they will run like below 39psi, and they won't run at all below 28-30psi, in my experience.)
If you've got 12 volts at the coil hot side, and the proper fuel pressure, then something else is the issue. There are a few relays that may keep the engine from starting, but first we need those baseline things established.
Your posts seem to contradict one another, low or no fuel pressure won't keep your engine from cranking, although it won't run on it's own.
If you've got 12 volts at the coil, but the engine doesn't crank....see my pattern? ;)
One last thing....you HAVE checked the inertia switch, right? It's in the trunk, on the inside of the tail light panel, should be hidden behind a piece of the gray carpeted trim. It's a little black box about double the thickness of a deck of cards or so, has a white button on top. If that button is sticking way out, push it in and try starting the engine. It's not common, but it does happen. I hit a pothole once in my F series truck once, killed it dead...was the inertia switch.
Ok I have not checked the switch, the 04 is my fiancés that I traded my truck for we are having to borrow a car at the moment so both of us can get to work, I am going to oriellys today I will see about the fuel pressure switch but when I unhooked the coil wire I had no fire, unhooked the no 1 wire no fire bu I will see about the fuel pressure gauge today
edit: the inertia switch looks to be right pushed the little white button didnt do anything as in go in further than it already was.
another edit, what I mean by doesn't crank is it won't start it turns over and isnt getting any fire. I just checked the coil I have power on both sides with just the switch on. I changed the distributor out again also just to recheck that, both distributors came from running cars one that was in it was from my foxbody mustang the other is the stock one that came on the thunderbird.
I checked the harness at icm power at the ignition control module and it has 12 volts with key on.
When we say the engine cranks over, that means the starter is turning the rotational parts inside, but due to a lack of fuel, ignition, or compression, the engine doesn't run on it's own. Your case: cranks, no start, reason unknown.
Cranks, no start. No spark. Fuel pressure uncertain, but I'd focus on the no spark for now. That's probably the issue. Did it run before, or it just upped and refused to start out of the blue? Quit while driving?
Do you have a spare coil, or can get one? The 12v positive at the hot side will be there regardless of coil good/bad, but if the coil is bad, obviously you won't have spark.
I take it you haven't yet pulled codes, if any?
Edit: I know we all say check codes, but there's not a code for coil failure. I'd try a new coil first, but i'd also check codes as well, it may clue you in as to another unrelated issue.
Yes it ran I drove it for about a month, I bought the car about and hour and a half away had a bad transmission, I put my mustang motor and t5 in the car and drove it for about a month the whole time I was driving the car when you would give it gas to get up and go it would stumble at times and other times it ran like it should my reason to think it might have been the fuel pump acted like it wasn't getting enough fuel then last Sunday we were going to town and it done the stumble so I let out came to a stop sign gave it gas to take off and It died hasn't ran since. Yes it turns over but with no spark.
I have not tried pulling codes I'm about to here in a second and it has a brand new msd coil I put on it while I was swapping everything over but I put the stock coil back on to try it still nothing.
can you hear the fuel pump prime when you first turn the key? if you dont hear the pump prime and you have no spark check the EEC relay located in the main engine harness near the EEC.
yes fuel pump primes, when I changed the filter the pump came on and stayed on longer than normal, I guess building pressure back up and filling the lines up so yes it is working, I think its down to just the spark issue.
It's a long shot but I had a truck act like this and found that the power wire to the coil was almost broken, just a strand or two holding on. It was good enough to light up the test light but not enough to make it run. You could try a jumper wire directly from the battery to the coil just to see if you have a power feed issue.
Chec things in order using the no start thread I linked to. This will tell you what system is out of range or failing quickly and easily.
This blows my mind. Everyone is jumping all over the place from fuel to whatever. You clearly posted NO SPARK. So pulling codes is a waste of time till you get SPARK. Did you disconnect the ECM from the 60 PIN connector and see if you have spark. Please do this and post back!!
That no start link will walk you through a no spark situation
yes I have spark now, changed the distributor cap and have spark lol always the dumbest things, but no fuel pressure I changed the regulator and unhooked the line at the filter and turned key on and it sprayed gas out into a can. Only things im pondering is a hole in the fuel line from pump to pump hanger maybe it will start now but idles very rough and you can push the gas and it does nothing so obviously I didnt let it run very long because it didn't get any better. After letting the pump prime and pushing the schrader valve in not alot of gas would come out, I don't know if the line could be stopped up or that line in the tank have a crack or hole in it.
Sorry for all the confusion I've had over 20 foxbody mustangs and never this type of an issue so it just boggles me. I'm trying to locate a fuel pressure gauge or something so I can check for that.
I had a fuel pump go bad in my Tbird...it would build enough pressure to squirt out of the valve, but it sure didn't run until I replaced it.
What exactly was your electrical issue?
Idk honestly I changed the distributor back out changed the distributor cap an it had spark, I just don't get it I put that pump in its a 255 walbro unless its bad it was suppose to only have aroun 100 miles on it the po put a 340 on his car he went turbo
New sock/strainer, etc?
Yeah I put on like the stock one on it
Ok now what is the FUEL PRESSURE and do you have injector pulse. What is the static Timing and is it correct?? NOID light test for pulse. Does it start at all?? If not check and make sure IT RUN SPUTTER OR WHATEVER. post back. Fuel pressure measurements are mandatory along with capacity. Post back with all info and symptoms. Thanks
update guys the car isnt getting fire, as I said before I changed the distributor out which included the ignition control module, any other ideas changed coils out also. Is there a ignition relay or something?
Not getting fire means NO SPARK LAST TIME I CHECKED. Is this what you mean???
TOTALLY CONFUSED HOW DID YOU GO FROM NO SPARK TO HAVING SPARK???
A SPLIT IN TANK LINE WILL CAUSE LOW FUEL PRESSURE AND A NO START CONDITION WHAT IS THE FUEL PRESSURE???
Harbor freight has a fuel pressure tester for about $20. It is possible for the fuel pressure regulatorregulator to fail and dump all of the gas back into the return line and not let much out to the engine.
Like tom has been saying, test the pressure when you can find a way to do it.
Yes Tom it either didn't have spark or it was a very light spark I chan the distributor back out and put a different rotor cap on I then I was getting spark at the spark plug, took it out and grounded it on the shock tower.
I'm gonna round a fuel pressure gauge up if it today if changing this line doesn't do any better.
It will start and run after you prime the pump a few times but very rough idle and it does register to the gas pedal (pushing pedal does nothing for the engin it's like your not pushing it) so I didn't let it run long as stated before.
I'm very confused at this car also like I said I've never had this type of problem which I guess it the reason I do t have all the tools or equipment that I need to test
Now that you have spark and the engine starts, codes will help, if its a sensor issue. You can pull codes with a paperclip and a test light or buttstuffog volt meter. A key on engine off would give you codes stored in memory, and if you can get it to do an engine cylinder ballance test, it will tell you if you have a problem with fuel.
I'd still check fuel pressure when you can get around to it, and quit throwing money at it until you id your problem!
Ok guys just check while the car is running it has around 40 psi fuel pressure but runs like it isn't getting enough fuel mashing the pedal does nothing for the car but make it shut off
I have power at the number one fuel injector
It seems to spin over fast almost like its 180 degrees out of time but its not I checked it today.
You did pull the SPOUT connector out before timing it, right????
Are you sure the plug wires are on the dizy correct I wasn't thinking one time and ran the motor up on TDC, stabbed the dizzy and proceeded to land the wires according to firing order I just wasn't thinking and and went clock wise around the dizzy instead of counter clock wise. The motor actually did start (ran horribly) lol
Wait a min you swapped in your HO did you change computers? Your old motor would have had a different firing order as well as injector pulse?
Yea it has a da1 and it hasn't ran good enough to set timin I'm going to change the plug they had gas all over them and see what happens with it. And yes the plug wires are on correct
Fuel pressure regulator. Change it, and let us know what results are.
If you have 40 psi you are good. But check the dip stick for raw fuel. Or run the car with the Vacuum line removed and see if fuel comes out of the NIPPLE. Other than that you will have to go back to basics and check compression firing order and static timing. Also check all injectors with a NOID LIGHT. Also check every plug wire for proper spark. Is the spark STRONG. Blue in color and app 3/4 inch long. Also double check the firing order. Good luck Tom
This. If the engine runs better, or as Tom mentions fuel comes out of the vac fitting on the fuel reg, then that's at least some of your problem. I think it's safe to say you have a rich problem. (not to be confused with the rich problem that Donald Trump has, heh.)
By the way, did you ever pull the distributor out, and if you did, you may have to re-time the engine, starting from scratch, and setting the dist. just right.
Or, run codes.
This will more likely then not tell you your problem. It takes 5 mins, and you already have everything you need if you have really checked power at the injectors.
There has to be power to the injectors the car starts!! He needs to check PULSES.
I ran codes I think lol im almost sure I did it right only codes I got was 48 52 12 48 23 I will redo this tomorrow to confirm its right but the computer may have reset because I did switch those computers out but I put the original da1 I had first installed back in.
I have not been able to check pulses yet tom I just got home and its cold wet and dark out so I will try to tomorrow I'm going to start over stabbing distributor and take all the plug wires off and reset them also.
Code 23 is a tps outside of range code. Test the green pin for voltage, doing an easy slow sweep. Should be 1.27v or lower at idle and go to 2.5v's or sohigher then the base.
48 is idle too high? Maybe maf? Mesured airflow too high.
52 is power steering switch always too high. Ignore this one, it shouldn't effect driveability.
Code 12 is cannot control rpm's during test. This points to a bad tps as well.
Re-run codes, making sure they are accurate, they should repeat so you should get two sets of identicle codes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QSiS6wf7oU&sns=em
This is my video of key on engine running. Watch how the needle reacts to get a better idea of codes.
ok got it thats a good video for comparability yeah it may have been idled to high the car has a 65 mm throttle body that has a slightly bigger hole drilled in it, i forgot to mention I done a koeo test as it wont idle right now long enough to do a test. When you try to give it gas while running it just shuts off.
so I did go out and reset distributor took all wires off and reset them also still nothing different was the same as it was. Just updating
I do have injector pulse tom
Check for vac leaks, do a base idle reset if possible, clean your maf, replace/check tps. With a tps/maf code, you will have issues keeping the car running. The maf will also effect your air/fuel ratio.
Base idel reset, get car running, unplug iac sensor. The car should lug down a bit, adjust throttle body screw till it barely runs, then plug iac back in, end of procedure. However, you should fix your tps sensor and maf code first, as well as check your fpr for a leak first.
Proper MIN IDLE is set with a WORM engine to achieve 750-800 RPM (stock cam only) with IAC disconnected. Then adjust TPS to 1V Do not set the idle to a barely run condition. That is incorrect . The TPS can be adjusted anywhere between .5 & 1 volt to be adjusted properly. If you are still having issues you need to check compression and vacuum leaks. Have the engine smoke tested for vacuum leaks. Your fuel pressure is OK as you posted 40 PSI which is correct. Once again check for a strong spark at the plugs. Also check the other sensors. Post all your modifications and make sure the timing is set correctly. IS IT?? Good luck
I believe the EEC will act different when you hold the throttle down and try cranking? I used to have issues (I forgot about this until now - perhaps I still have them...) where I'd get into a state of bad idle and then the engine would still. Trying to crank again would not start unless I went WOT and cranked it. I THINK this will try to insert more fuel, to at least account for the throttle body being open more? I thought I remember reading somewhere that the EEC senses the WOT and does something different more than just compensate for the expected airflow with the open throttle.
It puts the ECM in CLEAR FLOOD MODE. Injectors do not pulse when the accelerator is floored and cranking. Just saw this post!!
I am just plain lost guys I've checked for vaccum leaks and fpr leaks and nothing. Tomorrow I'm gonna check for pulse at all injectors I checked two today the two front ones I have the upper off so i will check them all tomorrow.
Tonight I set the timing way off and the car crunk and ran for about a minute total then shut off its blowing something out of the throttle body as it idles.. the timing was set at 16 advanced with the spout out I'm so lossed with this car as I said before I've had over 20 foxbody mustangs and never had these problems as I said I drove the car for about a month before it broke down doing nothing mechanically while I was driving the car. The whole time I had the car running as stated before, when you would get into the gas pedal it would act as if it were not getting enought fuel or timing was to advanced sounded like it was going somewhere but didnt and the day it broke down it did this and everytime it did it I would let out and I came to a stop and gave it gas to take off and it shut off hasn't ran since. Aside from the rough idle when its running.
The car had the distributor dropped in right and all so I know its all right.
Tonight I said screw it and took the front cover off to make sure timing chain was still right, I put a new one in it before I dropped it in the t bird.
mods go as followed: mustang motor top to bottom
gt40 heads with 1.7 rockers
stock mustang cam
speed density with correct da1 computer for t-5
stock mustang upper and lower
65mm throttle body and spacer
stock exhaust until I get it back going I have mac shorties and off road h pipe
What your looking for on the injectors, is a steady pulse while cranking. If itisn't constant, then it points to a ignition module/pip/dist issue. No need to take off the whole upper or check each one, but I guess it can't be a bad thing to be sure.
The car will not idle as long as you have a tps code, and the maf code could make it run shiznitty too. There are procedures for checking these as well. Let us know what you find.
And mr. Renzo, thanks, you were correct as far as the base idle goes. I was having a brain fart.
Hmm, it couldn't be a maf code. I always get the sd and mass air computer codes mixed up for some reason. I suggest when you finish with the injector checing that you re-run codes, making sure the codes are correct and repeat themselves. The tps code should be a 5 min fix, but might cost some money, and you'll need a voltmeter. You can get a volt meter for $2.99 at harbor freight.
yeah i have a voltmeter and a test light i have another tps sensor but its at my brothers house i have to wait for him to get back in town i was checking pulse by turning the distributor while key was on
What is the wire that connects kinda to the keyed ignition switch itself? Has a little clip that touches the switch
Grounding pin for the door ajar warning. If its the little black on attached to the actual key lock part.
*edit*
Ment the key on chime. Sorry.
ok just wanted to make sure it wasnt important in the car running for some reason
Ok update guys, I dropped the car off with a. Mechanics just because I'm lost. He said he took two plugs out and it would crank up an run, he changed the computer to just try it with one he had laying around he changed the distributor also with one he had laying around he said he was lost with it also said he has never had one like that. Any other thoughts guys?
Yup...
Run codes, check/fix tps and do a base idle reset, then clean your maf.
And then, re-run codes...
Wait, ignore the maf thing...
Okay guys I got the car fixed today got to thinking about the cats being clogged up, and unbolted the exhaust and it fired right up so I put my shorty headers and off road h pipe on it. I have to get the
It to the exhaust shop now.
Fascinating how this car went from no SPARK to clogged cats. I guess i am getting OLD. Easiest way to determine this is by back pressure readings. 2 seconds would have corrected this and a quick back hand to the tail pipe would have settled the issue in 2 seconds. Or a vacuum gauge would have pinpointed it. Normally a start and stall is dead nuts for a clogged CATS. Just saying!!
Just never thought the cats were the issue, an as stated before I don't have a lot of tools or money to buy tools an stuff, all the parts except the fuel pump I already had.
Glad you got it figured out, but it sucks it will be so expensive.
Well I had headers and off road hnpipe laying in my building so I put that stuff on an I'm happy I got it fixed thanks to everybody for your help.
I think you still need to find out why your cats got clogged.
i busted them out before putting the stock y pipe on so i figure that had to be why it was running so sluggish when you got into it, i guess i must have not gotten it all out and it made its way down to clog the pipes.