Can it be deleted? If so, how?
Vinnie,
Can you post a picture of what you are talking about. I think I know but wanted to make sure before I opened my mouth.
Darren
The tube from the valve cover to the throttle body
cap them off, I've been looking for that tube
are you sucking crud into the trottle body? as in you happen to feel the guides are gone?
as to how,
have you tried running with it off. on the valve cover its going to vent to atmosphere.
at the TB, if i recall , i noticed it made too much noise when adding thottle so im thinking thats the area your wanting a soltuion for.
i would make up a simple flex hose from the tb and aim it down to the rear of the engine so it sucks in outside air.,, thats the easiest way around it.
Whats the difference anyway, its normally sucking in stuff from the valve cover and sending down your intake runners,, why not just insure its fresh air only.
i would not cap off the valve cover fitting though, and if you see crank case vapor coming out, then it may be a little smokey under the hood depending on what your reason is for wanting to do this.
better yet,
elbow and 90deg out to your air box along the bottom. this will allow the intake to sill pull crank case vapor but the fitting up at the TB now becomes something you can cap off.
i would enter the air box on the correct side of the filter so the crank case vapor would be forced through the filter.
the more i think about it now, the more i like this idea. this would allow you to manage / monitor if your valve covers are letting vapors or debris out and you can easily and visually see the dirty indication on your inexpensive air filter.
serously?
thats easy,, especially if you have a truck stop around... its just plastic tubing.
the big trucks use plastic lines for air prakes and such that come in many diameters. eventually the air lines transition to metal but there is a boat load of plastic tubing lines in a big rig. now just use a heat gun or a pretty good hand held hair dryer to heat up and shap the line.
i think lowes also offers black water line tubing in a small rolled up baggie as well that i spied out one day...
My car has the tube as it's supposed to be. No issues from it. I am just curious if I could eliminate than tube completely. IF I can, I'd pull the tube from the t-body, tap the hole there, and install a plug, and have no venting coming from the valve cover.
Would too much pressure build up in the engine?
I just put a vacuum cap on the TB and have been running the Coupe this way for years. When I had the stock valve covers I just put a vacuum cap on the nipple on the filler neck. Now I have the tall Motorsport valve covers so I did not have to worry about the connection of the filler tube on the stock valve covers. When I built the 331 a couple weeks back I noticed that the tube on the TB washiznitting my hood so I pulled the metal tube out of the TB, drilled it out, tapped it with a NPT taper tap, and plugged it. Now I have about 1/4" clearance and it cleaned up the overall looks.
Darren
i dont understand the way you typed that.
i wouldnt completly cap off the valve cover fitting.
can you edit?
maybe its not all that important, everyone else is happy with capping it off it seems.
i thought it would be nice to have a point to monitor blow by but i suppose you'd see blow by if you take off the oil filler cap.
if you still have the pcv tube in place, thats where pressure would get relieved from now on so hopefully that chimney thingy down deep isnt clogged.
My real concern is if there would be any negative results from eliminating that tube as though it never existed.
The PCV valve is in the rear of the lower intake so I think that covers what you are worried about. I have a vented oil filler cap on my passenger's side valve cover. You can see what I am talking about here:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy142/dbrune_83/IMG_2336_zps048665ed.jpg)
Darren
Is there a baffle under that cap?
Vent the valve covers leave the PCV Valve in place. Plug the other end of the removed hose and drive off in to the sunset. The closed PCV system is federal law that is the only reason it is designed that way from the factory.
VENT BOTH COVERS TO ATMOSPHERE WITH AN OIL BAFFLE INSIDE THE COVER!! POLISH THE PARTS AS USUAL AND ALL IS GOOD IN THE WORLD!!!
With my intake over the driver side valve cover, there's really not room for a vent cap. There is on the driver side easily. I need to measure everything, but I'm not thinking one will fit on the driver side.,
The Motorsport tall covers allow for a baffle and they come with one but it is not installed when you get them. Short answer is yes. I cannot vent the driver side due to the upper intake being too close.
Darren
I always cap it but don't vent it if you vent it your PVC will just pull air in through it ....very little bit it is considerd a vacuume leek
I only run breathers on the race car because the PVC pulls gobs of oil through the intake
When money allows ill go with a vacuume pump
The valve cover vent is to let filtered air from the throttle body in. Not to let fumes out.
The question is, with no vent will the PCV pull too high a vacuum in the crankcase? Is that a problem?
You really think filtered air is going to go through that tube against engine vacuum in the throttle body?
Yep. That is how it works. Air goes in through the valve cover and out the through the PCV.
Its been that way on my car for over ten years so I guess you could say it works...
Darren
I may cap my valve cover and throttle body and test it out. I appreciate the replies.
caping off the valve cover fitting just kinda reminds me of offering a situation where you "could" possibly suck in your valve cover or oil pan gasket, without a way for fresh air to get in and your intake is constantly sucking pressure ,, dono, may just be me but it kinda feels odd... cant exactly put my finger on it but if the crankcase cant circulate , somethings gotta give.
thank goodness none of us seem to run those lousy rubber valve cover gasekets anymore.......... or do we.
wrong, the air is sucked OUT of the valve cover and into the throttle body. if air goes INTO the valve cover it blows your dipstick out and sprays oil out it. why do you think you have to cap the end at the throttle body and run a hose from the valve cover to after the mass air sensor but infront of the inlet side of a supercharger when you install one? (in other words, the suction end of the blower, if you dont do this, the dipstick thing happens as you are adding air, rather then removing it like the factory designed.) plus if you just leave it off, with a mass air car, that is un metered air (vaccum leak.) going into your engine which will throw off your air fuel ratio's. and make it run like a bag of shiznit.
this is one of those BS filled threads that i cant believe people are saying to just remove that tube and it will be good. wow.
^Exactly.
Hmmmmmm....I may just work the tube in somewhere then.
I've read about that problem with mass air and just capping that tube...
just guessing here, that a stock motor wouldn't care either way then
That tubes purpose it to allow the pcv system to pull already filtered air from the intake, through the crank case. The air is then drawn through the pcv valve on the intake manifold. This is possible because manifold vacuum ranges from 20in. to about 0in depending on throttle position, while vacuum in the intake duct stays around 0in all the time. You can certainly eliminate that tube by capping it at the throttle body and adding a breather filter to the valve cover. Making this change is a necessity for anyone running a turbo or supercharger.
if you look at it closely and think it through, you'll probably agree that the tube section is bi directional depending on the available vac suction at the upper intake..
just check me here......
-at lower rpms or idle dominant vac pressure exists at the intake to generate the air moving machine so to speak,,,, so, air flows from the crank case, then through the spark arrestor, then through the pcv, then through the upper intake vac dist tree, then through the intake, then to the pistons. IT would make sense during this situation that fresh outside air must come into the trottle body, then in through the black plastic tube then down the valve cover kneck and to the crank case.
-at high rpms, the same should happen but the dominant vac presure now moves to the throttle body at the plastic tube fitting due to the volume of air passing by the fitting. Air should move from the crank case and into the tb but i have no idea how air is getting "into" the crank case because the pcv is a one way check valve and should be closed. perhaps the this is when the center hole on the upper / low comes in play...and i may have answered my own question.
this may be another reason why there is no check valve on the plastic tube if you think about it.
on the CFI cars 5.0 or 3.8, the pcv had two hose connectoins and one goes to the air cleaner , same operaton as above just a different layout.
ive always considered the tube as bi directonal so thats why i was saying the TB could be capped but not the valve cover neck.
thoughts?
I don't know about super charged or turbo systems, but that is not what we are talking about. If the intake is pressurized I can see where you would not have any intake manafold vacuum.
The vacuum on the PCV is sucking the crankcase fumes out and this draws the air into the valve cover vent.
If the blowby is more than the PCV can suck out, then it will go out the valve cover vent.
In the 60's they vented to the air.
That's why they put the tube to the throttle body to keep the fumes from venting to the air.
The throttle body is not sucking the fumes. The pressure in the crankcase is pushing the fumes if there high blowby.
So the BS is flowing from Dunnville, along with the cold air.
1WLD BRD
wrong, the air is sucked OUT of the valve cover and into the throttle body.
NOPE^^^
The PCV sucks in the fumes under vacuum and it draws through the filtered hose from the valve covers to the PCV. Simple to test just put your finger on the PCV valve and notice it pulls in vacuum. Closed systems are federally mandated. As for Pressurized engines go. You need a check valve in the PCV system to prevent pressurizing the crankcase under boost. Leaving the hose off the intake portion will cause un metered air to enter the engine and drive it LEAN. This is of course if it is behind the air flow metering device.
Quote Originally Posted by softtouch View Post
Yep. That is how it works. Air goes in through the valve cover and out the through the PCV.
Correct This is exactly how it works. It is called a closed crankcase system. Or CCS
drum roll and ......3,,,,,,,,,2,,,,,,,,,1 : )
is it possible that the flow in the tube either reverses or goes stagnant so to speak when at higher rpms? when the pcv is not fully open ?
Jay @WOT when vacuum is low Blow by is basically in limbo. It goes to the least resistance. That is why the intake plenum gums up on blow by motors. But this is for a brief time till vacuum returns. If you see a car on a dyne it can easily be seen. A fresh engine has very low Blow by. Basically reversion is at a minimum. Other than pressurized engines if the check valve fails. When a check valve fails bad things happen. Boost is introduced in to the crankcase and blows oil out of every nook and cranny. That is how the dip stick blows out of the stick tube.
But the PCV still draws FROM the crankcase, most commonly via a hose, or some sort of fitting on the valve cover.
When I first started driving my '74 J10 (Jeep truck, when AMC ran the show) some old drunk had ran the PCV hose from the valve cover into the oil fill tube. It kept blowing the dipstick out of it's tube, and while I enjoyed the rust protection on the bottom of the hood and the inner fenders, it wasn't until I got a Chilton manual that I seen it needed to run from the fill tube to the air cleaner.
I'd roughly say that whether it vents from the oil fill, directly from a fitting on the valve cover, if there isn't a baffle to keep oil from getting sucked up into it, you are going to have a big mess in a short time.
As for whether the air from the crankcase is sucked, drawn, pushed, or however you wish to term it, simple fact is that the engine draws it in by vacuum. At least it did on my old J truck. I'd imagine that there are different methods, technology and ways to do the same thing via a little different method.
It's also possible that the EEC of say, a Mustang, with a Mass Air system is calibrated for that small amount of airflow coming from the crankcase so that there are no ill effects. It's also possible that this amount of air isn't so great as to even be a worry in a properly maintained system.
And since a Mass Air meter only measure a little stream of the air real time, any changes to the air pressure would immediately be compensated for, via the readings from the 02's, the TPS, and where the throttle is set at, as well as engine RPM.
Of course, I could just be full of shiznit, but according to a few sources, not so much.
As for saying that anything that that has vacuum that doesn't first run through the Mass meter is silly. What about the EGR? The cruise servo? The network of lines for the heater controls? All the hoses on the bottom of the intake, and yes, even the brake booster?
Now if a system is sealed, there's obviously no leak, no unmetered air flowing in, well, not very MUCH. I bet it wouldn't be any more than what is drawn through a PCV valve...food for thought.
Pull A dipstick out of a BMW and see what happens. Different manufacturers use different systems. Bottom line is the crankcase is under a vacuum . The PCV sucks in the blow by fumes and the intake portion is from the valve covers most of the time. Having a working PCV and a valve cover breather is fine. When the PCV system gets overloaded and it does(THAT IS WHY I USE 2 PCV VALVES ON CERTAIN ENGINES) You get reversion. Then the intake sludge's up as the flow reverses on loose engines. (BAD RINGS) To much blow by. But with the feds designing emission regs the systen is a closed one to minimize emissions.
Some use CATCH CANS to recover the oil as the system gets overloaded. Or use a crankcase pump for evacuation.
learned me a new word,, reversion. i just might use that one.
so reading your instructons twice, i read into it that the flow can reverse and its briefly happening. i wish i had used the term briefly because thats what i meant by during the times when at higher R's, and the pcv is not fully open.
learned me a new word,, reversion. i just might use that one.
so reading your instructons twice, i read into it that the flow can reverse and its briefly happening???????? regardless of motor condition but most obvious on a blow by motor>?
Tom, great info. You still haven't adressed the air going into the breather and coming out of the PCV is unmetered. That is the only reason I have not chimed in. I have no answer to that. I do believe you are correct in saying he can get by with a PCV on one side and a breather on the other, I just can't get past the unmetered air thing. Doesen't all incoming air have to be metered? Not meaning to hyjack here, but I am interested in your mention of using 2 PCV valves. One on each side? My truck has a blow-by issue. Later I would like to do an engine swap to fix it and get more power, but for now I need to keep the oil in the engine and out of the intake. PCV valves only allow air to flow through and not oil, am I correct?
Yes and no Chrome anything that allows un-metered air to enter after the metering device is UN - Metered by that device. Example if you have a ripped boot after a Mass air flow meter to the throttle plates the car will set a lean code. If you have an air leak before the metering device like a ripped boot from the air cleaner to the metering device it does not matter. That air entering the metering device is measured. If a leak after the metering device is tuned in to the system it is OK. Example a PCV VALVE is a designed vacuum leak after the metering device. So basically when the crankcase is under vacuum from the PCV VALVE hydrocarbons are sucked in to the intake. When under WOT the incoming air across the throttle body sucks those Hydrocarbons from the mentioned tube. Another words a venturi action from incoming air pulls in those fumes from the tube. Or which one has the upper hand at the time. This is why the throttle body needs cleaning as the incoming Hydrocarbons and oil film coat the throttle blades. This also happens from reversion in the crankcase. Thanks
So, what you are saying is, with a breather, what little un-metered air comes from the PCV is not enough to cause a problem. Ford antited a little bit of un-metered air to be sucked into the engine. In-perfect for a reason.
Just an added note. Any air entering the engine must be filtered, or else unwanted debris will go in as well. Breathers are filters and must be cleaned on occasion.
humm, i would venture the EGR could argue with you,, it provides its offerings to the intake without descrimination of what just poped out,, lol.
Correct and with MOLLY RINGS that is a GIVEN!
I have molly rings in the Sport's engine.
So, the tube would work the same if it went to the back of the intake instead of the throttlebody, right?
No, the manifold would be a vacuum source. The tube is meant to reside upstream of the throttle plate where it is only subject to atmospheric pressure.
Vinnie just connect to the air cleaner like I said in the first place
Cap off the throttle body
My air cleaner is a MAC CAI and I don't want to drill into it.
You can avoid drilling your intake by using a separate breather filter. They sell some at Advance that are the right size for your breather tube. They also make filtered catch cans, so if you get blowby you can catch the oil. Those you can get in Jegs or on eBay.
The new valve covers don't have a filler tube...or any holes at all yet.. I'm using them so they'll be different, but I have to address the oil fill and tube.
I didn't know we were talking about retrofit
This is the first I've heard of it
O.K., I thought I mentioned that. Apparently not....now, I'm installing valve covers that have no holes in them at all except for the bolts. I am trying to keep the look as clean as possible, while having an oil fill and the vent tube.
Now we're up to speed. LOL.
I'm over thinking this perhaps....If I install a breather, The tube doesn't need to be there anymore....because the breather, in effect, does that job now.
Right?
OK simple you need a place to put in oil!!!! That place is the valve cover. So a breather is necessary on one pick the side. With that if you get lucky it wont PUKE out oil like brian so correctly said. So a baffle just might be necessary in my experience and a hole has to be drilled in the cover for a fill port and vent. Thanks
Vinnie post a couple of photos of your engine with the original setup and valve covers and the tube. That would be very helpful so we can see what you are trying to do. thanks
It looks like a stock 5.0 setup, but with finned aluminum covers. I have baffles for these covers, I just haven't drilled any holes yet.
Ok then what is the issue at hand??
Don't run a PVC with a valve cover breather if you run a breather in the valve cover run a breather on the back of the intake
This is what I did
I was filling a steeda oil separator in a day
Perhaps this would solve your problem: http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=12285
WOW i have reservations about that. Can you elaborate!!
On what?
The above quote, Or do you mean from the valve cover to the intake??
I ran a breather on the valve cover with the PVC hooked up for a long time one day a buddy pointed out that I'm pulling in un metered air I also had a large oil in the intake problem so I put a breather on the rear of the intake the pistons coming down push the pressure out
One day ill use a vacuume pump
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m550/pooppoop13/06EC05B7-7E66-43CB-8736-6557755E4E7E-2439-000001CA62A3EFA4.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m550/pooppoop13/334981D8-8B65-4056-BA5D-84242EA81-2439-000001CA874BF4A0.jpg)
Stang8u, I think your pregnant, you missed a couple periods:mullet:
.....I really don't have room for a filter on the back. I have a/c lines there. I need the following...A way to run the valve covers as cleanly as possible and as simply as possible with out oil catch cans, vacuum pumps, and the like. An oil fill cap of some kind is easy. But the vent line.........
Nope just bloted with beer lol
I'm a better mechanic than school teacher
All's good :D
This effectively disables the PCV system. I don't think that's what Vinnie is looking to do.
Prob not this is my race car
But if you run a aftermarket intake it will pull a ton of oil I was filling a oil separator in one trip
Just pointing out a valve cover breather pulls un meatered air
It's so little it's not a big deal but it dose
That unmetered air has already been accounted for in the ECU's programming.
Like I said its not that big of a problem but it dose pull it
I did this because I pulled a lot of oil
Just a opinion you won't pull so much with a stock ish motor
I hear ya. I just don't want to over complicate things for Vinnie's sake. 8 pages explaining something as simple as a PCV system?:dunno:
I have a Cobra intake, getting ready to install a tubular GT-40 until my Explorer upper is finished. I'm polishing it. If the air isn't that big of a deal, I can install a breather and be done, right?
If not, I'll install an oil fill cap, and move the vent tube to the back of the valve cover out of sight.
If I made this complicated, I sure didn't mean to. I simply want to know the best way to install plain, no holes, valve covers on an EFI engine that has A/C, and no smog equipment.
You make everything complicated. When is the day going to come where you stop swapping upper intakes? I thought your Explorer one was done long ago?
Well that is what i thought you did and i personally dont like it very much. A PCV valve is necessary on a street engine in my view. On a race only engine OK. But Vinny wants to clean up the engine bay not add things like that.
I think that is your 1320 car so it is totally cool other wise. Does it PUKE OIL???
I am hearing that!!! And totally agree. But it is nice to see different things and ideas!!
The Cobra intake I have is nice, but the GT-40 is kind of necessary. It will run on the car for a while, AND, I'll be using it to gab a bunch more GT-40 intake plates again. hat brought in really good money to use towards the Sport.
The PCV valve on the back of the lower intake apparently stays where it is. I guess what I'll end up doing is install an oil fill cap on the valve cover, and moving the vent tube.These are taller valve covers as well, and I'm going to have to raise the intake a bit more, so, I will probably tap the hole where the tube is on the throttle body, and drill and tap a new hole on the back side of the throttle body to install the vent tube from the valve cover, which, I'll relocate to the driver side valve cover, under the upper intake.
That sounds good to me.
It dose not puke oil works just fine ..... One day ill use a vacuume pump and pick up some hp
But with a breather on the vc and using the Pcv you will pull air ....just saying
And with a bigger intake I suggest running a oil separator if you don't want oil in the intake
Thanks for the heads up. That is very good to know.
So NO>>>>>>>>> :barf:
I see what you're doing Vennie that sounds right to me
I'm almost betting that you could add an in-line filter to the tube as well to help prevent oil going up into throttlebody just in case in the future there's any blow by
I know it kind of sounds far-fetched but just a thought
This thread might relate to a question I have, about my v6. I have the tube going from the valve cover to underneath the intake. Theres an open end right above the valve cover connection, im guessing a breather, then half way along there's a 90° opening, connected to a solenoid, then to this black box, wich then goes all the way back to the fuel tank. I'm taking an educated guess and saying this is to somehow vacuum fuel fumes into the intake? my thought was to cap off all the open ends on this line and just leave the line sealed going from the valve cover to wherever it connects on the intake.