Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

i tried to manipulated the auto lamp relays by injecting 12v power on the white pink wire.

I am 90% certain this is now bad
both auto lamp relays energize and de energize and have continuity across thier outputs when energized, no continuity while de energized.

the middle of the end of the board is pin3 which ties in the diode on the leading edge of the two back to back transistors.
I replaced this diode because it was reading odd even with one leg lifted.  I installed a new one that was the same physical size with no luck.

i found one leg of the large capacitor was loose,, not sure why and it did not appear heat damaged, i heated it back up for a connection.

nothing appears to be burnt, however my son says the clear type diodes he see's one of them where the interior gap seems different from the one right next to it.  either way i am now in the serious market for a huntron.,, these are the very best tool to use and not having to worry too much about lifting legs on things and such.  diodes / transistors read as a "V" depending on which way you read them, resistors read as straight lines but diagonal any vector angle you can imagine proportional to thier resistivity, capacitors read as a elipse depending on thier farads.

anyhoo, got asked to post this so here it is.

which part would you replace next?

oddly enough, just fyi, my part number is

"LECTRON PROD.2
E1SB-14A597-AiA 1A"

but,, on the lid of the "dog house"  it has 7EA stamped in.

number systems would indicate this is an 81 pn,, yet this is an 87 car

What does it do? I have one working module in front of me, so you can ask on specific details, readings or so. I can measure it for you.

Let's start with the wiring diagram
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/xrha_P1080194.JPG)

I am so appreciative of this,, thank you so much.

for this to work, we have to activiate the card so our ref values are
-have your headlamp switch off
-have auto lamp switch on set to just after the thumbwheel clicks from off to on.
-have auto dim switch on set to just after the thumbwheel clicks from off to on.
 

i am looking for voltage reading on the + and - side of each diode as shown below.
I am looking for the voltage at pin 1 of the IC as shown.

if you feel like you can,, the voltages on the capacitors would be nice but if you cant,, i understand.

Also, the Q1 / 2  CBE readings

again, make sure your two auto lamp / auto dim thumbwheels are just after the off where they click to on, i can set mine to that exact setting so we are comparing apples to apples.

thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh, what does it do,,,,,,,,,,

well, it has to be in your car and it has to be installed.
it is typically dead center of the top of your dashboard,, does your car have auto lamps?

i suppose from your situation you show, you could apply power to the two legs and apply the ground as required, that should power up the card to get readings

I got it from one Crown wic with burned motor bay.

Here are the values. C is cathode, A is anode.

.........on......off
pin1:..5,9.....5,9
D1C:...14.......0
D1A:...14.....15,8
D2C:...5,1.....5,1
D2A:...1,3.......0
D3C:...5,1......0,5
D3A:..1,25.....0,5
D4C:..13,4....15,1
D4A:..14,1....15,8
D5C:..13,5....15,2
D5A:..14,1....15,8

I'll check the transistors in a minute.

are you using the "comma" as a "." ,, meaning 5,9 = 5.9vdc?

D4 and D5 make sense, silicone diodes apparently, not germanium.
D1-3 dont make sense but maybe they are breadboarded that way.

and to be honest id dont know if the Q's are 2222's or 2907's

I'll bet now looking at your readings that the D1 is downstream of the two back to back transistors and one of these Q1 or Q2 is blown.

D3 makes sense too. It's the antiparallel diode for relay. Yes, comma means the dot (in czech language we use comma)

Here is the rest of the values.

.........on......off
C1C:..2,4.....3,4 - there is the threshold voltage of 2,6V. if it drops bellow 2,6V it turns on.
C1A:..5,1.....5,1
C2C.....0.......0
C2A - connected to C1C
C3C.....0.......0
C3A.....0......0,5

Q1 on (from the top): 0...1,25....0,65
Q1 off .....................0...0,5.....15,3
Q2 on ...................14,1..13,3...13,9
Q2 off ...................15,8....*.......0

* unable to measure. when I placed there the multimeter spike, it showed 16,3, but the test bulb (instead of rellay) turned slightly on.

great!! thank you ,,,
now my turn,, warming up the garage now,,, all done with my work engineering package for Bennington Vt,,,

Check the voltage on the big square spot between C1 and C2 first. It should change with the light conditions.

one last thing before i go,,
explain your bench test,,,  power input and ground
were you powering up the one you show in the picture with a remote power source?
or were you reading a card that was hooked up to your car.

i assume you applied power to the two legs needing power,, correct? from a 12v source?

I'm using old model train power supply. If you look at this picture once again, you can test it the same way.
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/xrha_P1080194.JPG)
First and fourth lead is connected to +, second lead is connected to the ground. the third wire is the relay output (I'm using a test light instead of relay; relay - is connected to the ground) and the last wire is connected to one lead of resistor (aprox 140k) and the second lead of the resistor is connected to ground.

PS: I have two of these modules, but I don't have a car with autolamps. I'm going to modify the silver bird's wiring in the future.

True redneck style :mullet:
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/fdoj_P1080001.JPG)

I've got mine open, and I'm trying to determine where the relay out power comes from, and I'm pretty sure it comes from that transistor that sits right on top of the diode. (Images are clickable so you can see them full size)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/Mike_Schader/20130108_180154_zps05719bb5.jpg) (http://"http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/Mike_Schader/20130108_180154_zps05719bb5.jpg")(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/Mike_Schader/20130108_180226_zps6f421c52.jpg) (http://"http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/Mike_Schader/20130108_180226_zps6f421c52.jpg")

Yes, Q2 (as you called this transistor) is powering the relay out. Q1 is NPN type and Q2 is PNP. They are working together. The Q1 is just the voltage invertor for Q2.

If you want, I can make a complete schematic of this circuit at the weekend. It's very easy circuit.

PS: As you probably noticed, this circuit has only one safety feature. It's the D3 diode. It protects transistor Q2 agains the voltage peaks during switching the relay. When the D3 diode is gone, the Q2 transistor will say you bye bye too (most probably).

the middle solder run is the output power delivery to the relay,,
thank you trinom,, just confirmed that bugger is a PNP as well.


When you said earlier you your readings for the transitors are "from the top"  do you mean from the top as in typical Collector then base then emitter?

I still don't quite understand how you tied D3 to protecting q2  but that's fine I'm out here troubleshooting it now I got a little delayed

Are you sure you don't mean D1

I think i have q1 and q2 as bad

With module plugged into car headlamps off, auto lamp ckt on  source voltage was approx 12v
**did not do power off readings

IC1  Pin1  5.8v

D1c  12v
D1a  0v
.. resistance readings  pn  ITT  ZY  24
open one way,,  950koms the other way

D2c  5.1v
D2A  0v
.. resistance readings  pn  motorolla 52  31B
15mg one way,,  open the other way

D3c  0v
D3a  .5v
.. resistance readings  pn  ITT  ZY  24
90kohm one way,,  50mg ohm  the other way

D4c  11.1v
D4a  11.9v

D5c  11.2v
D5a  11.8v


**i kinda messed up how i labled the caps,, hope you make sense of this
c1c  3.5v
c1a  5.1v

c2c  .1v
c2a  ?

C3 Big one (i did not lable caps right)
C3c 0v
C3a 5.8v

C4 (next cap going clock wise)
C4c .1v
C4a .5v

q1  c .1v  b .5v  e .1v  part number 48-2
resistance readings 
C-B one way 57kohms  , open the other way
B-E one way open, open the other way
C-E open either way


q2  c .1v  b .1v  e 12v part number 48  .10
resistance readings
C-B  2.1ohms one way,  2.2ohms the other
B-E  open one way, open the other way

Keep on with the work guys! I wish to do some work on mine in the future. My auto dimmers don't work properly. I love the auto lamps, but would prefer to do away with the auto dimmers all together if possible. My brights only come on when they want to. Usually when there is on-coming traffic. It's almost as though it is working backwards.

double check your wiring on the connector of the auto dimmer switch,, pull down the related paged to the evtm from my or trinoms or foe's links.

pm or call me anytime you want to do some preliminary checks.. 304 772 3411

No, I thought reading from top of the board to the bottom. In fact it is pin 1 2 3, but I only read the values. I didn't know which pin is which (BCE or EBC,...), because it's easy to tell from the values later.
 
I'm sorry, I messed it up. You are right. D1 is the relay protection and D3 doesn't have connected cathode. Look closely on the board. There is no path from this solder joint. You can throw away this diode. It's just useless weight :D.

with those type of transistors, with the flat side to your right and legs pointed down..  they go CBE.

i personally wouldnt be able to tell what leg was what after readings,, i cant determine if it is a common base, common collector or common emitter without doing an etch and sketch of the board to build a diagram.  not sure its safe to assume vcc is always the collector,, but thats why your mr smart!  : ), you got one up on me~!

sorry about the mess up on the capacitors,, i was in such a hurry i didnt lable them right going clock wise and neglected to sort out c3 and c4 correctly.

my biggest challenge is finding a pnp transistor with no electronics supply house around.  i could harvest from old boards,, from stuff i dont throw away.  i have a few transistors just the right size but im pretty certain they are all your common npn.

ok,,,,,,,,
what are your thoughts on my readings?
you agree my q1/2 is bad?
are you saying d1 is a "blocking diode"?  to protect transistors? - if so thats why i see the annode bonded to one of the transistor legs.
do you think a blocking diode on the 'relay output' would protect the board for a spike introduced from the car in the future? (anode to the relay coil side , cathode to the middle board pin)

one other thing,  dont you find the two relays interesting how they are configured on the drawings?  i have asked someone with a little more geek in them than me what this configuration is,, in my minds eye i can only see two relays working off the amplifier middle pin to generate a very very low current ,, sort of a digital high so to speak to trigger the first relay coil.  ,, i dont know,, it kinda makes my head hurt.

I've noticed, that both of the transistors have EBC label, look at them closely. Q1E is connected to the ground and Q2E is connected to the battery power. Be carefull in selecting propper PNP transistor. It has to be able to feed the relay. I guess Ic has to be greater than 0,5 A.

Here is the output stage of the module
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/61kb_P1090003.JPG)

If you are trying to measure the transistor, don't use ohmmeter mode of your multimeter. It's useless. You should use diode mode.


PS: Transistor as a switch can be used only as a common emitor.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/NPN_common_emitter.svg/130px-NPN_common_emitter.svg.png)


Jay, control the Q1 base voltage first. I think your problem isn't blown transistor.
When the lights are off it should be slightly below 0,5 V. When it's on it should be about 1,2V (I've corrected this value on the table on previous page I've found a typo in the numbers).

ohm reading one way and the other still offers the same result for diodes,, transistors are nothing more than two back to back diodes relativly speaking.  Never had a problem using ohmeter in the past, diode check is something i can do... no biggie.Im skeptical though because the two individual transistors regardless of pnp or npn, they should still read fairly alike just the opposite of each other.

I see you did correct q1 base info, thank you.  Now to figure out whats triggering the base of q1b to get that voltage up,, humm it needs .6v to get there so perhaps that accounds for a defective diode somewhere.

if i introduce a static potential on q1b, that may get q2c to produce power out.

based on what you drew above, looks logical to me.

D3 diode isn't useless. I missed the path to the chip. It's the key!

D3C: when it's on, it has 5,2V, when it's off, it has 0V.
D3A: on - 1,2 V .... off 0 V

Check the first table, I corrected values for D3. I had to measure wrong pins yesterday (http://idforums.net/html/emoticons/facepalm.gif).

Triggering signal comes from pin 4 of the IC.

What signal voltage level are you getting on pin4 in the on condition

I've got a zero coming out of pin four so that means D3 is never going to deliver bias voltage on down stream

for some reason im starting to think that q2 is a darlinton of some shape or fashion,,
i shot gunned q1 / q2 with 2n4401 and 2n4403 and no go.. the pnp got kinda hot , not exactly sure why but took it back out.
like i said in the earlier post and i thank you for pointing out pin4 on the chip set,, i agree, thats the key, the only chance in hell i have is that another input pin is low as a result of a component thats more available to me to replace, otherwise, i may be screwed.  hope to hear back from you trinom.

I may just pop up each resistor one leg at a time and verify thier resistivity.  I havent done this yet becaue the way things are laid out, i measured across a few and the readings with the tolerance band fell in specifiations, my thoughts are if a resistor were bad, it would show,, visual inspection does not indicate any excessive heat.

by the way, ive been just plugging my card directly into the vehicle harness connector to obtain voltages. 

it would be nice to know if there is a cross ref for the chip set,, google may end up being my friend.

if any of you guys (thunderchicken, softtouch, turbocoupe50, thefoeyouknow, seek and trinom) are reading this,,

what exactly are these transistors with the following markings

q1  =  48-2
q2  =  48 .10

never seen these marks before, not sure what to make of them,, googled the hell out of these and got close on the 48-2 , one site said this 48 -2 was a pnp which surprised me.

I guess Q1 and Q2 don't have true names, but only a "nick names". It's quite usual to ask manufacturer for a serie of some device with nick name (if you want milion pieces, it's not a problem).

Q2 might be a darlington PNP. TC4001BP is quad input NOR (http://"http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/31626/TOSHIBA/TC4001BP.html").

I'm going to make a full schematic for this circuit. I think it might be complete tonight. I have PSPice simulation software, so we will be able to benchtest it on a computer screen.

dont forget to let me know what your pin 4 is putting out, mine is 0,1vdc

by the way, to test the photodiode, just power up the card, put your meter lead on one of the sides of the photodiode, then put your finger over the photo diode.

mine increased in voltage as the light increased.  decreased voltage as light decreased.

Pin 4 is connected directly to cathode of D3


It isn't a photodiode, but the photoresistor. I measured the resistivity and it has 22R in direct light and goes over 1M in the dark. I can measure the voltage as well.

humm,,
speaking to the chip set,, it appears the chip is a quad nor gate which explains pin 4 being an output.

pins 2 and 3 need to be low to get a high out on pin4

MM5601BN
Logic Circuit, Quad 2-Input NOR, CMOS, 14 Pin, Plastic, DIP

do you agree and now does it seem like its a more common part?

this is starting to seem more manageable~!

Do you have MM5601BN? I have TC4001BP.

Here are the exact values of the devices. You can measure them in the circuit, except R5 and R9 (they show 165k) and R12 which climbs to the sky.
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/y16o_autolamps.jpg)

Here is the pinout of the TC4001BP. Vss is ground.
(http://circuits.datasheetdir.com/110/TC4001B-pinout.jpg)

i have the MM5601BN pn,, i was assuming the pin out for power input would be a single pin.

gonna look now at a data sheet on it to see if the nor gates are arranged the same.

It's the same device, the pinout is also the same.

well, with this said,, and aparently i "DO" have output power off pin 4,,

i find 5.1v on one side of D3 but like .7 on the anode side.  i am swapping in another diode in a few moments.

No, don't swap it. It's OK. 0,7V means, that Q1 is in saturation.

D3C:...5,1......0,5
D3A:..1,25.....0,5
^^your above readings

my readings are D3C=5.1vdc, D3A=.7vdc

mine would mabye match yours if my D3A were not so low. 

what say you?

0,5V is not sufficient to open Q1. The threshold is about 0,65 V. 0,7V is enough to open the transistor.

Here are the simulations for the end stage. Green arrows show voltage, which you can measure on the cathode of D3. Upper part shows OFF state, the lower shows ON state.
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/el7l_autolamps-konec.jpg)

this will be very helpful to explain my readings when i keep testing.
i should have been done by now,,, LOL.

here are my chipset readings.
it appears my channel 4 is not working right.

i added red lines to show the board bonding jumpers.

why is this called a two source quad nor?  is there suppose to be a power supply on vss to power channels 1 and 2, and power source on vdd to power channels 3 and 4?

how did you determin your transistor part numbers?

thats also helpful to find replacements.

do you think my chip set is bad?

No, Vdd is power + and Vss is ground.

I've chosen the transistors just to match the type. It's not necessary to use exact type in simulation if the transistors are used as switches.

Voltages on the pins are correct, all NOR gates work properly.

ran out to a parts store , no luck finding a quad nor chip set.

Your chipset works well. I will do the simulation for the rest of the circuit in the evening (local time). Check the resistivity of R2 and if it's too different set it to 3k5 or so.

Ill try that, may have to parallel a couple combinations to get it callibrated.

I did buy the transistors you listed on the diagram "thinking" you cross referenced the original one to these part numbers.

I will remove and re-install the original transitors then work on R2, i can see how this resistor being such a low value could effect the q2 output now that i see how you have it laid out.

WHy are you saying to mess with r2?  thats a time delay adjustment to make the auto lamp trigger earlier or later.
I dialed that to the min and max mark while powered up and had no auto lamps.

are you talking about the resistor thats off the collector of Q2?

No, I'm talking about R2, the pot at the lower left corner of PCB. Set it to 3.5k and wait. It take some time to turn on or off (up to half a minute). The next thing, please measure the voltage on the big rectangle testpoint under C1 and C2. This may be the key for the next move.
(http://www.abload.de/img/autolampsfdoiq.jpg)

ok,,
so you have said you dont think the following is bad on my board

q1 or q2
the chipset

since you dont think these are bad, what could be the faulty part?

do you suggest i swap in the transistor part numbers you have on your simulator?

at this point, evey reading i have provided has not yielded any probable fault thus far yet the board is not working.

Please measure the voltage on the big rectangle testpoint under C1 and C2. This may be the key for the next move.

As I mentioned, I used some pnp and npn transistor for the simulation, since I didn't need to take care about the load. I wanted to know, how exactly the end stage works and it gave me the numbers, which are very close to reality.

ok
give me a moment
i will re-install the original transistors and report in about 15min.

i did adjust R2 again , will repeat with original transistors.

will supply voltage readings on the area where the two caps meet on c1&2

Yes, that's it. The voltage should be changing with light intensity. Slowly.
(http://www.abload.de/img/p1130014g5asu.jpg)

PS: The resistor numbers in the simulations are not the same numbers as we used R1 (sim) = R6 and R2 (sim) = R3.

2.5 V with full light from my garage. .3 V with complete darkness on the point you have shown

This is with the old transistors back on the board

while i waited, i swapped out all the smaller diodes with no luck.

you would think this would be easy, the boards are not using calibrateable resistors so our readings should be consistent. This is starting to become a tad frustrating , especially not knowing what these two transistors are even though you said they are good on my board.

they are

48-2
and
48.10

trinom,, when you get back, clear you mind for a moment and just think about this from my perspective.

the reason for the fault is a tried test on the auto lamp relays that resulted in my sending 12v "IN" to the middle connection called "RELAY OUTPUT".
This would have been direct battery current going into the board on a circuit that was designed to be an output.

The very first thing that would have taken this unfortunate hit would have been Q2 collector.

does this help any?  i was never really certain you understood how i got here but thats the story.

I keep thinking that q1 adn q2 both were not reading correct and when i put in a replacement pnp & npn general purpose transitor, i keep thinking that this is not the corret type transitor.
better yet, i keep thinking q2 is more than an npn , it may be another type because my resistance readings were not like what i would expect with your typical transitor where it was blown or defective.

have you had a chance to dig into your electronics resources to cross ref what a 48-2 and a 48.10 transitor is? 


also, you did notice your simulator q2 is a transitor with a heat sync?

hey,
please tell me there is a jumper where my arrow points...?
if not then ok,, but if you have a jumper there on the board, i dont have one so maybe it got blown out.

That's weird, it should be ON the whole time. Please check the voltage at pin 12 of the chip. Is it the same or not? It should be.
 
I don't know what type exactly they are, because they used nick named transistors.
 
Well, if your module had a battery power hooked up at the time of the accident, I think it should survive without any problem. Also the voltage from the battery is too low to damage the transistor.

Again, please don't care about the transistors in simulation.
 
It's not a jumper, it's a pin from the transistor. It doesn't touch any other pins. It's just an optical illusion due to the camera angle.


Let's move on. I think you have a problem in the buttstuffog part of the circuit.

IC pin 12 acts the same as the bonding area of C1 & C2.
voltage goes up with increaded light and it seems to top out at 2.7v if i wait long enough.
voltage goes down with decreased light and it seems to go to nearly zero volts.

you said in post 57 that the area bonding c1 & c2 should be changing with light intensity and it is.
you said pin 12 should be acting the same, and it is.. what is wierd?

**to move a little quicker, tell me what time "eastern standard time" to be here and i will do it.
as soon as you ask for a reading i will react and reply within a minute or two.
or i will have to figure out how to get skype running on my laptop or my iphone.

What's weird? The top value at the test pad should be higher, than 2.7V. But in that case it should be still turned on. Can you send me the values on the chip once again please?

You are six hours behind us (I live in GMT+1 time zone). I will be here for next six hours or so. Here is the link for skype for iphone - http://www.skype.com/intl/en-us/get-skype/on-your-mobile/download/iphone-for-skype/

ok,,
sorry,,, here i go to post results,, will set up skype later........ sorry i missed your post ,, im watching now.

in 5min i will have chip set values. and my circuit card will be in a simi dark situation in my garage.  I am not outside where there is currently daylight, this means the values on pin12 will reflect such.

the below pic shows my readings as they are now.  pin 12 varies so you know that.
where i have a zero, the reading is 0,1 (nearly nothing).
so the readings are the same as before.

OK, the output (pin 4) is in ON state. That's correct. Does it drop to zero if you throw light on the sensor (after half a minute or so)?

yes, pin 4 drops to zero with light applied to sensor.
returns to the 5v range with darkness

Perfect. That means, that your chipset works fine, as I mentioned earlier. Also the buttstuffogue part works correctly. You really must have some issue at the output stage.

oh,, now i see what you mean now, i missed that.  even channel 4 will prove out fine based on the jumpers i see.

So we should move back to the end stage. Here is the complete end stage schematic.
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/s8ig_autolamps-konec2.jpg)
Please check the Q1 base voltage once again and R6 voltage as well. Both for dark and bright conditions.

want me to check the cap C3 to see if its shorted?

sorry, didnt see your next step below the diagram,, getting data now

q1 base dark = 0,7v
q1 base light = 0,5v

r6 on either side remained the same at 0,1v in both dark or light conditions.

OK. Next, we will find which transistor is shot.

First, desold the R6 pin connected to the Q1C. Solder some LED and resistor (at least 470 ohm) together. connect the LED and resistor between Q1C and ACC or BAT. This will show us, if Q1 is working. Test it for dark and bright conditions.

Second, connect the wire to the free pin of R6 and conect it to ACC an then to the ground. See what happens and let me know.

ok, will report back,, i think i see where you are going.
give me 30minutes

resistor and diode in parallel or series and diode pointed which way?

are you trying to "make" the blown side of the transistor?

and,, is this safe?
have you tried this before?
if not , its the reason i am here today

Yes, it's safe.

Here is the quick sketch, how to do it. The first task shows us, if Q1 is good and the second one proves the Q2. If it will be OK, it will turn on the headlamps when you connect R6 to ground.
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/ywrg_P1130018.JPG)

Is your diode backwards for the first step

LED in step one is just in this direction. Anode to the ACC and cathode to the transistor (with a resistor of course). It should glow in the dark.

Use appropriate resistor for the LED. Minimum value is about 470R and maximum up to 10k or so. I recommend you 1k, if you have it.

I installed everything as you drew and explain.

Step one did not turn on the autolamp by adding power to the anode side of the diode
I use the variable potentiometer and dialed in 500  Ohms

Step2  consisted of bonding the free leg of r6 to battery and to ground.  in neither condition did the lamps come on.

In the first step only the led should turn on, not the headlamps (because one pin of R6 is disconnected). Try it once again with the new NPN transistor.

Here's a picture of the set up as you described in how I installed it

Okay will install new Q1 Npn

Wait! That's not LED, that's the standard silicon diode! LED looks like this. Longer leg is anode.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-S5UVVDeQ3_4/T9EXRF0KH4I/AAAAAAAAESI/GHsK81cfM8c/s1600/Red_led_x5-21.jpg)
BTW, your chipset name is CD4001BCN.

Tom gave me some of these it's an LED light 12v rated will this work

Hey power up in either direction too so I wonder if that is a problem

Q1 has been replaced and no change

I installed a 2n2222 and no change

What did you mean? I don't understand.

Use standard LED diode as shown on the picture above (with resistor).

What I mean is I thought I could find an LED and apparently I'm having trouble doing so

I am wondering if the lightbulb in led form will substitute or not

I cannot seem to find myself an LED like the one you have in the pictures and I'm sorry for mistaking the diagram as a diode

hold on,, i think my son has a new bag of LED's he ordered.

Well, there is another option without LED. Set your pot to 1k, conect it between ACC an Q1C directly and try to measure the voltage on Q1C. For both bright and dark. R6 will be still disconnected.

no go on led's

what purpose are they serving for our test for step 1?  if they are just a visual that i have power, i have my test light i was using anyway...and meter.

ok, doing this now

LED is just low consumption light source and it's easy to use. That's all. I don't want to overload Q1.

With 12v applied to the resistor 3 V appears at the collector of Q1 with low light

With 12 V applied to the resistor 12 V appears on the collector of Q1 in high light

Perfect. Your Q1 is working well. I will send you my idea tomorrow. I'm really tired now and it will take some time to explain.

Thank you very much I hope we made progress today

Yes, we did. I will try something at work tomorrow. I want to verify my ideas before sending you a modification instuctions. It will be easy, don't worry.

And thank you for being a soldier on this one I appreciate it very much

As I said before when I grounded the free leg of the resistor the lamps did not come on at all so that means there something going on with Q2

I asked softtouch to dig into the nickname transistors, he seems to be guru in finding hard to find information

Fixed

Swaped in one of my transistors I picked up from RadioShack
I guess I didn't initially have enough transistors to choose from but after my trip to the mall yesterday at RadioShack it gave me more options to swap in Q2 part numbers

It is a 2n3906 PNP transistor for Q2

All functions seem to operate perfectly now except for an initial power up. My auto lamp relay was clattering at first but  I powered down then powered back up and all is working well so far

Wait till Trinom sees this

I have stress tested the repair, seems to be back to normal...  ready to move along to a new thread stemming off the mod by thefoeyouknow.
Trinom, frankly if it was not for you taking the time to lay out the circuit in schematic form, i would have to map this thing out myself which did save me a ton of time.
i appreciate you always and thank you again.

I have even "confused" the autolamp system , a lot of people dont know you can do this but if you pick auto lamps and then pick headlamps manually, then turn off autolamps then turn auto lamps back on, then turn manual lamps off it will malfunction for about 5seconds.  This test passed as the system got confussed then recovered.
basically if you just shag with the switches like a retard, it will act odd for a moment or two then pick up auto lamps again.

our injected battery voltage on the transistor q2 must have caused the damage and being its a pnp transistor depending on the state it was in during power up of the back feed modification, this means my resistance readings seem more valid now to which part of the transistor had the issue.

i can not thank you enough, thanks for the team work and sticking with me on this.

I'm happy reading this. If you want to make your module idiot proof you can add two more diodes (standard type, 1N4007 for example) to the wiring harness.
First one should be in REL OUT line. Anode should be connected to the module and cathode to the wire (Cut the REL OUT wire few inches from the module and put a diode between the wires). This diode protects the circuit against reverse voltage from your headlamps.
The second one should be connected between cathode of first diode and GND (anode connected to ground). This is one is much more usefull than D1. This one will protect the circuit agains voltage peaks from rellay.
Here is a quick sketch, how to do it.
(http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/kkky_P1140019.JPG)

I meantioned earlier, that I will simulate the whole circuit, so I have complete schematic of my Autolamps module. Here it is.

Q1 and Q2 values were only for simulating purposes. Jay, please tell me both transistor values you found to be working. You've found Q2 to be 2n3906. What Q1 did you use? 2N2222?

Yes for Q1 I used a 2n2222

I'll need some time just stew over your diagrams but they look very intriguing and thank you for the diode layout. I didn't think about adding the second diode the way you have it done and it should be the best way

Isn't the diode you have shown on the relay output backwards?
Doing so would allow power to leave the module but not allow power to come backwards into the module on the middle wire

It's correct.

Just catching up went through this whole topic.  Very interesting albeit confusing at times.  ;) Great job Trinom, I'm a believer in the diodes too when it comes to circuits like this.

I am a bit confused about D3 in the output stage, if you are talking conventional current flow it's backwards, if electron flow it's OK but then D1 is keeping REL pulled up to 12v all the time.
Am I missing something?

Great tutorial on troubleshooting!

Not really sure how to answer that question

D1 is connected between rellay output and battery voltage. I guess, it is connected this way, because if the voltage on the relay output is higher, than on the battery, it means, that there is some problem and this diode opens. I think it's a sort of protection, but it's another kind, than traditional antiparallel diode which I meantioned earlier.

D3, or even the whole end stage between output of the NOR gates and Q1 is a piece of mystery. I think I know, how does it work and why, but I'm not definitely sure how to explain it properly.