Thunder chicken can i post my fail safe wiring diagram and redundant relay wiring for you and others to see it works? Thanks!
thunderchicken is in canada
you are in the usa,, depending on where the message board is based, it might be in this free country,,, lol why you ask?
id say anything to help logivity of these cars is what its all about,,,, i try so hard to make sure mine are as stock as possible,,, even down to those little lables and such but time marches on.
Jay he warned me about my posts so i am getting permission. He said my wiring wont work. So i nave it mocked up and want to post it. So i am asking permission. He owns the board and forum so i want permission Thanks.
That's it, Tom... Poke the hornet's nest...
Go ahead and post your redundant relay setup. I didn't say your wiring wouldn't work, I said that the way you had it in that drawing wouldn't work. There would be no way to turn it off if wired like that drawing.
IGNITION SWITCH OFF no power to the load light off
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-157.jpg)
Ignition switch on power fed through the slave relay AUX BATTERY Not through the ignition switch Ignition switch powers up relay coil aux battery supplies load
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/004-47.jpg)
Coil failure in relay ignition switch supplies load.
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-68.jpg)
WHEN THE IGNITION SWITCH IS OFF THERE IS NO BATTERY FROM EITHER SOURCE TO THE LOAD.
REDUNDANT BATTERY FEED FROM 2 DIFFERENT SOURCES
THIS I USE IN ALL MY CIRCUITS TO AVOID A RELAY FAILURE AND NEED OF A TOW TRUCK
THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME POST IT THUNDER HERE IT IS WORKING EXACTLY AS I EXPLAINED. YOU PROBABLY DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I DID OR HOW IT WAS WIRED. NO PROBLEM I WAS TAKEN BACK BY YOUR POST AS SAYING IT WOULD NOT WORK. THANKS AGAIN
here is an etch and sketch of what you show wired and when...
i am fairly certain i have it drawn wrong, pls confirm,,, i only attempted to draw what i saw was bonded to where.
Jay reverse pins 87 & 87a then you have the circuit!
Ok, drawn that way I can see how it works. Still can't see the point of it in an automotive application (maybe on an airplane, where if something fails it's a 30,000 foot boo-boo so a Plan B is a necessity), but I can see how it would work.
And before you fly off the deep end, Tom, I say I can't see the point of it because virtually every car made since the mid 80's relies on at least one relay to run, and I can't think of any that have that redundancy wired in. Yes, relays fail occasionally, but not at a rate that redundancy is required - for every fuel pump relay that fails there are eleventy-two bazillion relays that don't. The load the relay is powering is actually more likely to fail than the relay itself (IE you're more likely to need a fuel pump than a fuel pump relay, and your headlight bulb is more likely to burn out than the relay feeding it). The redundancy would do no harm, but it also does very little good. Indeed, the most common cause of relay failure, at least in GM cars, is not the relay itself but the terminals it's plugged in to (they usually overheat and burn up), and in this case redundancy wouldn't work because the power would still have to pass through those terminals. In other words it's that thing you accuse everyone else of doing: Overkill.
Sorry you don't like it Thanks
ooppsie
ok , rearranged the lables and terminations
are you sure its ok to pass high current through the contacts *and* the coil of the relay.? i am against this, you should blow the coil out quick.
are you using the term in post 1 "LOAD" lamp in direct relation to automovtive loads? by using the white wire as your "load wire"
sorry i dont get it ,,,,,,,,,,,yet,,,,,,,,, but im sure you can explain.
in the middle "energized state" i show a green arrow for power path.
if this is a slave relay circuit isolation where heat is no longer on the switch and its a fail safe, i see no way for power to get out if the coil were to open.
NO NO the white wire is the coil pull in lead. Along with the black. Blue Red & yellow are the contacts
Blue 30
Red 87a
Yellow 87
Thunder Chicken posted it was a lot of extra wiring but in actuality it is just one more lead that is already on the connector. As far as the relay going bad that is true they are reliable. But they do go bad. As the matter of fact the new relays coming from wherever have been built quite shabby lately. With that i proved it works and that was all i wanted to do. So wire stuff any way you see fit.
Thunder here is an ATC universal fuse holder. It is rated at 30A. As you can see it failed with a 20AMP fuse. This is the they sell. I had a long talk with my vendor about this foreign junk. So dont think relays are any different just saying!
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-100.jpg)
Well, going by what you're saying the morning commute is really gonna suck, what with dodging those tens of thousands of broken down cars all over the roads. Guess I'll be lucky if I even get there myself, since all three of my vehicles rely heavily on relays for their very survival. And there but for the grace of God and a bunch of failed relays go I... Shoulda just bought a horse instead
so the diagram i drew would not be how its installed in the vehicle,,,,,?
tc~ also buy snacks~!
Jay just swap the 87 with 87a and you are golden.
But was this thread not because of an engineering flaw in our vehicles. Just saying. When designed i think FORD did not count on components failing and or burn connectors and switches. Seems like people on this site have to slave out a hell of a lot of switches and controls or replace ignition switches that have failed and burnt these cars to the ground. They were also recalled for the issues. If memory serves me you made an elaborate circuit pack for your car for the issues. So clearly you understand the issue with this. I have my thoughts on things and so do you. Either way we fixed the issues just differently and that is fine.. Bottom line if cars dont break neither of us have to worry about commuting !! Thanks for listening and allowing me to post . .
i did , on post 10... i want you to help us understand the "trouble state" section of the drawing. Thunderchicken gets it but i dont,, Thunderchicken?
i cant see how power gets out to the coil.
the way you show your pictures and after i corrected my lables, i see 12v in on 30, and in a trouble state, power travles through 87A, and then it hits an open coil.
you agree that in the energized state, your power delivery out to the coil is moving through the relay contacts and the coil of the relay?
Yes post 10 is correct. If the relay hold in coil is defective the contacts drop and battery is delivered through the ignition switch. With the relay operating properly the power comes from your AUX battery feed. Just concentrate on the relays contacts. Forget the hold in coil.
ok, thanks,
what did you mean by "coil",,
do you mean starter relay coil?
tom, without the other vehicle components tied into your description, its impossible to see how this works.
If the relay coil opens, then power does ***NOT*** go directly through the ignition switch as you have it wired,, unless,,,
you also are adding another wire where the yellow is now out to the starter relay "coil" if that is what you mean by "coil pull in wire".
if your gonna be a tech rep for us, you gotta figure out how to illustrate yourself beyond words.. its just the way it is.
right click, save my pic as a ".jpg"
right click on the file and "open with microsoft paint"
show your other pieces parts tied into this fail safe relay ,,, i think i get it now but its your design, and i am just trying to understand how you integrate the starter relay into this.
Tom, I'm not questioning the need for relays. I agree with you 100% that Ford screwed the pooch on the electrical design of these cars. In fact my 1991 T-Bird's ignition switch fire was instrumental in forcing Ford to recall those switches.
Long story short (or as short as I can make it, anyway), my switch caught fire with me, my ex and three children in the car, 800 miles from home. I jumped out and pulled the battery cable, saving the car. Had it towed to a Ford dealership (I was suffering 3rd degree sunburn, with egg-sized blisters all over my body, and was 800 miles from my tools). They fixed it, then tried to blame my speaker wires for the fire (they just saw large-gauge non-factory wiring, didn't even bother seeing what that wiring was for). I told them I wanted the old switch back. They gave it to me. Finished my trip home, my insurance company asked me to have the car inspected at a local Ford dealership at their cost to see what caused the fire. I obliged, the dealership blamed my key ring (too heavy they said, I said nonsense, the keys go in a lock cylinder, not the switch - they then said they didn't know what caused it). Little while later my insurance calls me and gives me shiznit for taking the car back. I told them the dealership told me to take it, they told me the dealership told them otherwise. I faxed them a copy of my invoice from the dealership, proving I did not "steal" my car back. By this time I was really, REALLY pissed off at Ford. Couple of weeks later I see a bit on the news about Transport Canada and the NTSB investigating Fords for catching fire. They said they didn't know the cause but suspected the ignition switch, and provided a phone number for consumers to call. I called, and explained what happened. When I told them I still had the burned switch they nearly had kittens, and asked if they could have it. "Absolutely", said I. I asked where to send it, they told me it was too important to send in the mail, an investigator would pick it up in person. A few days later the investigator showed up - he had actually flown down from Ottawa! He explained a little about their investigation and told me they had no definitive evidence because the cars had all burned beyond recognition (some of them taking houses with them). I handed him the switch, and he was like Gollum in the Lord of the Rings when he saw it. He said it was exactly what they needed. He asked if I'd be willing to testify if it went to court (as long as they paid my way I'd be fine with it). As he was leaving with the switch I asked him what the danger was of my car catching fire again (new switch, but same old design). He pointed at his rented Explorer and said "Let's put it this way: I won't park that next to the hotel I'm in". Month or so later Transport Canada and the American NTSB announced the recall. I got my switch back in the mail, with a thank-you note from Transport Canada saying it was instrumental in their case...
But yeah, like I said, I agree fully that the electrical systems in these cars suck ass. I did indeed convert my ignition switch, headlights, and fog lights to operate on relays. I didn't say I see any problems with your redundancy setup, I merely said I don't see a need for that redundancy. To each his own.
WOW that sucks. The shiznit burnt you. That sucked big time. I have seen a couple of those fires but not involved in one thank God. Thankfully you knew what to do. I got burnt years ago and i dont have to tell you what it is like. Thank God you and yours got out safely. I hate to think what a lay person would have dun. I have read that some of those cars did burn homes down. Actually Ford had a bunch of recalls and on the Cruse Control as well. I disconnected and removed the Cruse on my moms Lincoln years ago. I never brought it in for the recall. No need MOM only drives locally and never goes over 35 MPH. Thanks for the heads up. That story is something else. Burns suck. Take care Tom!!
I wasn't burned by the car fire, I was burned by the sun. My eastern Canadian skin was not used to that upstate New York sunshine, and I got a third-degree sunburn. Thanks for your concern though...
just got confirmed today (side note) that the "governing authority having juistiction" does not include any language pertaining to "automobiles" or "motor boats" therefore anymore of my spouting off at the mouth about NEC this and NEC that pertaining to cars should rightfully deserve a smack upside my head.,, how will i ever avoid repeating my past incorrectness i dont know....... maybe i am a
No problem. Been there many times!!
I just got a recall a couple weeks ago for the cruise control on my 1997 Mountaineer. Since it's our only vehicle that's running AND legal, it's going to have to wait awhile before I take it in.
I've also had an '89 Thunderbird catch fire on me while driving, but it was the alternator connection, not the ign. switch.
When i bought the new ign switch awhile back for the Mustang vert, I asked the guy at the counter for the best brand of switch they had...he looks at me funny, and says, "you want chrome or black?" I snapped back that i needed the shaging ignition switch and not the lock cylinder. He got a manager for me, and I got what I needed and GTFO of there. Ughh, but yeah, Ford dropped the ball with the switches and various other electrical things. Alternator connections on the Foxes, F trucks, and the Panther cars of the 80's and 90's especially.
Chevy has their own share of issues, lock cylinders that the key will come out of while in run or accessory, DRL (daytime running lights) with almost always one burned out light ('90-something and newer trucks), brittle engine wiring on newer vehicles. I've had to repair several broken wires on my blue truck...
You'd think the domestics would learn after several electrical recalls and lost houses due to vehicle fires. Also, i'm not bashing Chevy, Ford, Dodge, puppies cars, the Budweiser Clydesdales, or the neighbor kid's Polaris Sportsman.
If it's made by man, it will give you problems.
You JUST got the 09S29 notice?! We've been doing these non-stop for like 3 years.
If you disconnect the cruise safety switch at the front of the master, and see that it's wet with brake fluid, you'll get an updated one that won't leak. If it's dry, they'll install a fused jumper harness in-line with the switch (so that if it does leak, it just blows a 2 amp fuse). I think that if you noticed it was wet (maybe after a sloppy top-off ;)) and, say, for fear of a fire left it unhooked; you'd get the new switch no questions asked(whether it was really leaking or not).
yeah but those are debts you end up having to pay back later.. some of use get away with it while others try it once and pay it back x 10
Longer than that. My dealership was half Ford and Half Dodge. I did several of those recalls myself. I have not been in the business for over 5 years.
Well, is there some list of issues of our cars? I'm asking, because US cars imported to Europe can't apply the recall at european Ford dealers. They don't even know US Fords (except mustang of course).