Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 03, 2013, 11:14:55 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 03, 2013, 11:14:55 AM
need opinions here,,,,,,,,,,
87evtm page 77 and page 84 as it applies to a 5.0L stock wiring harness
when i remove the yellow from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the high beam elements light up.
when i remove the red/black wire from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the low beams do not light up.
when i trace out the this conductor, it dead ends on c234.
**for some reason ford dead ended this wire and added a wire tag to it and the tag says "13A".
the low beams get thier power from another second red/black conductor within this same connector C234 which is sourced from the "headlamp dimmer relay".
C234 is located directly behind the headlamp switch but kinda on top to the outboard side of the fuse panel. its a 12 pin gray connector.
my continuity test and applying power proof tests this finding.
so.... the schematic may not be correct with our without auto lamps.
I have auto lamps in this car,,, wish someone could confirm what i see by extracting the red/black conductor and putting 12v on it.
again, in my case, the low beams do not illuminate ..... this ties into somethign else i am working on but just thought id mention it. to me it looks like i should be sending power out to the low beams per the schematic.
as far as my digging has found, there is no mention of ckt "13A" anywhere. I understand the concept of using letters to show branch or parallel ckts of the same color, Cat does it in thier diesels where if you are in the third branch of a fused lead on sub system 5 bonded to fuse# 7, the wire id is ink stamped into the insulation and its going to be labled as
" 7-5-c"
this means that its source is fuse box pos 7 , sub system 5 and the third branch in this circuit. Same for aircraft wiring ~kinda but very similar.
87evtm page 77 and page 84 as it applies to a 5.0L stock wiring harness
when i remove the yellow from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the high beam elements light up.
when i remove the red/black wire from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the low beams do not light up.
when i trace out the this conductor, it dead ends on c234.
**for some reason ford dead ended this wire and added a wire tag to it and the tag says "13A".
the low beams get thier power from another second red/black conductor within this same connector C234 which is sourced from the "headlamp dimmer relay".
C234 is located directly behind the headlamp switch but kinda on top to the outboard side of the fuse panel. its a 12 pin gray connector.
my continuity test and applying power proof tests this finding.
so.... the schematic may not be correct with our without auto lamps.
I have auto lamps in this car,,, wish someone could confirm what i see by extracting the red/black conductor and putting 12v on it.
again, in my case, the low beams do not illuminate ..... this ties into somethign else i am working on but just thought id mention it. to me it looks like i should be sending power out to the low beams per the schematic.
as far as my digging has found, there is no mention of ckt "13A" anywhere. I understand the concept of using letters to show branch or parallel ckts of the same color, Cat does it in thier diesels where if you are in the third branch of a fused lead on sub system 5 bonded to fuse# 7, the wire id is ink stamped into the insulation and its going to be labled as
" 7-5-c"
this means that its source is fuse box pos 7 , sub system 5 and the third branch in this circuit. Same for aircraft wiring ~kinda but very similar.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 04, 2013, 02:06:02 PM
Post by: softtouch on January 04, 2013, 02:06:02 PM
I am assuming the main headlight switch and the ignition are off.
Page 77 is for cars without automatic lamps or automatic dimmer. Doesn't apply to your car.
If you are applying power to the wire and not the switch, I can't see how this can turn on the highbeams. Something fishy here. Turn the autolamp switch off and see if the low beams come on.
This wire is not shown on page 85. In some places in these diagrams they do show wires going to a n/c (no connection). Leaving it out makes the diagram less cluttered.
Use pages 81, 84 and 85 to do what it is you are trying to do.
Quote from: jcassity;406099
need opinions here,,,,,,,,,,
87evtm page 77 and page 84 as it applies to a 5.0L stock wiring harness
Quote
when i remove the yellow from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the high beam elements light up.
Quote
when i remove the red/black wire from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the low beams do not light up.
when i trace out the this conductor, it dead ends on c234.
**for some reason ford dead ended this wire and added a wire tag to it and the tag says "13A".
Use pages 81, 84 and 85 to do what it is you are trying to do.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 04, 2013, 02:56:50 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 04, 2013, 02:56:50 PM
If you look closely at the page, near the headlight switch it refers you to pages 28, 29 and 238. If you go to 28/29, you'll find a full schematic of the headlamp switch for both auto and non-auto. its here that you'll see your system on page 29 and you'll follow the links to page 84/85, where you'll find that the diagram matches your description of your systems functioning. All is well, drink beer and relax.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 04, 2013, 03:02:05 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 04, 2013, 03:02:05 PM
While you're examining the diagram, take a moment to appreciate the irony that you spent all that time slaving out headlights that were already slaved out. Redundant relays are redundant.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 04, 2013, 05:22:29 PM
Post by: softtouch on January 04, 2013, 05:22:29 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406193
If you look closely at the page, near the headlight switch it refers you to pages 28, 29 and 238. If you go to 28/29, you'll find a full schematic of the headlamp switch for both auto and non-auto. its here that you'll see your system on page 29 and you'll follow the links to page 84/85, where you'll find that the diagram matches your description of your systems functioning. All is well, drink beer and relax.
Please explain how this should turn on the highbeams.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 04, 2013, 06:15:03 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 04, 2013, 06:15:03 PM
Because he has the headlight switch on, but because of his slave relay mod, he has no headlights. He's in diag, trying to understand what went wrong. What he needs to do is pull his slave mod out and replace it with a single relay that sends power to the hi-lo relay at the command of the headlight switch. His solution is over-engineered, which would be ok if it weren't also engineered to run the wrong headlight setup. As Tom would say, he's chasing balloons. Too much thinking.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 04, 2013, 10:13:39 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 04, 2013, 10:13:39 PM
BINGO FOE once again an over built system that complicates a simple mod. Glad you pointed it out . That is why i stayed out of it. By the way installing crimp connectors will bite you in the butt. I see them fail all the time even when properly crimped. We see this all the time on the over the road trucks. It is mandatory to slave out the MFS as that burns up as well. Basically the headlight switch the High low and the ign acc output should be slaved out and that is it.
Hi low is accomplished with one relay. NC contacts for low and NO contacts for high. Separate relays are not needed. So other than building an elaborate electro mechanical nightmare just slave out what you have. Remember the stock wiring is totally adequate to run the lighting system. Fords recall for example for the ignition switch did not include wire size increases. It only covered the switch and connector. Dont chase balloons!!!
:flame:
Hi low is accomplished with one relay. NC contacts for low and NO contacts for high. Separate relays are not needed. So other than building an elaborate electro mechanical nightmare just slave out what you have. Remember the stock wiring is totally adequate to run the lighting system. Fords recall for example for the ignition switch did not include wire size increases. It only covered the switch and connector. Dont chase balloons!!!
:flame:
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 04, 2013, 11:20:35 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 04, 2013, 11:20:35 PM
Actually, Tom, the mfs is already slaved by way of the hi-lo relay, the current for either, on the other hand, all comes through the headlight switch, and maxes out at under 15A. If you MUST slave anything, it would be that, however, on an autolamp system, its just easier to divert the switch output to the autolamp #1 relay and use the actual headlamp switch to activate the slave side of the autolamp system. 1 cut and 1 splice. Done. Click here (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor") for my take on wiring modifications.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 12:08:08 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 12:08:08 AM
pls stop picking and help if your gonna help, i will try to word this again.
*when i extract the yellow wire from the multifunction switch on the column and i apply 12v, the high beam elements light, this is what i expected.
*when i extract the red/black wire from the multifunction swich on the column and i apply 12v, the low beams do not light.
~refer to post 1 of what i found,, this i didnt expect.,, directly relates to the dual relay single fuse "thefoeyouknow headlamp mod with low&high at the same time"
now, to your points,
Ign sw run
~i need one relay to achieve this to pull heat off the switch
Ign sw ACCY
~i need one relay to achieve this to pull heat off the switch
Headlamps
~i could do one relay to get hi/low working but the relay would have to be between the main light switch and the multifuction switch. This would "allow' the heat to pass through the multifuction switch. This i did not want.
~i have dual relays downstream of the multifunction switch using the yellow and red/blk wires to trigger a high and low beam relay set
Exterior maker lamps
~did you know that leaving these on the headlamp switch produces 160degF on the switch? this was a factor i took into consideration back when i did my son's car ,, his is relay slaved with only two relays, one for the high, low beam, one for exterior marker lamps, one spare
I need to slave the marker lamps as well of the main light switch and doing so with the dual brown wires resurected some old notes i took as lessons learned from my son's upgrade.
so my count of relays is 5 ,, is it not prudent to have a spare for redunduncy or to move a circuit incase of a failure on a relay,, thats why i chose a 6bank relay pack to gather all the above systems and slave them.
Now i am being told i can do ****ALL this on one relay?
that leads to my question again that never got an answer, how do i do both headlamps on one relay and run them in such a way that they can be either low beam or low combined with HIGH ,, **and be downstream of the column mounted multifunction switch. I was finally told that couldnt be done but yet we are back to busting my balls because i didnt do what couldnt be done.
Here are my requirements for this modification so please just relax and calm down and understand what my objectives are.
I need all original oem factory equipment to operate as it did from the factor yet add slave relays in strategic wired points such that these new slave relays are transparant to the vehichles operation.
I need my lamps, ign sw and my auto lamps to operated as though there are no slave relays in place.>>this part has become very tricky. Which leads me to my point that even the mod by "thefoeyouknow" does not operate properly if "autolamp" is picked. This mod does work if no autolamp is picked. The reason for my post 1 is to bring up a topic that i am happy softtouch and foe both pointed me to an alternate direction to examine. I am not perfect, i asked a question and for some reason , now i am beng told i have something that is over engineered. when i quantify the systems i "should" slave, and in the manner that pulls the heat off the widest area, i come up with 5 relays.
Tom~
lets stop and examine the application if your interested.
You have been asked when you contributed to other posts to produce a drawing or a sketch that melds into this cars design showing one relay that ****DOES NOT*** put power through the mulltifuction switch.
I have a solution for one relay but again, its betweent he multifunction switch and the main headlamp switch. I do not want heat on either so again, what is your solution?
you say one relay but yet you now in post 7 start to illude to the fact that you normally do 3? whats so bad about my slaving two more devices?
Foe , tom and softtouch
~maybe your misunderstanding me... im not sure how clear i could have been as i worded the post 1 carefully, heck i even drew a picture.
~the position of the main switch or multifunction swich is not relavent. the battery was disconnected when i asked the question. I ****EXTRACTED*** the wires from the multifunction switch connector. I applied power to the yellow and i made the high beam illuminate but yet when i applied power to the red/black the lows did not come on.
Softtouch~
there is not primary power wire for low beam illustratrated on the column mounted multifunction switch for pages 81, 84 or 85.
There is no other schematic that is installed in the 87evtm like page77 and thus far page 77 correctly illustrates the wiring layout except for ckt 13A which seems to not be mentioned. As required, i will skip over from page 77 to a sub system that is on my car by following the notes. Ths red black wire is not showing up as a dead end anywhere that i can detect... thats all i was asking.
I do not understand why you would not expect to light up the high beams in fashion i described. the lows never came on, that caused post 1.
foe- how is the qty of relays for my application too many? same for you tom?
i am happy to listen and if you can show a way that all these can be done with one relay.
*when i extract the yellow wire from the multifunction switch on the column and i apply 12v, the high beam elements light, this is what i expected.
*when i extract the red/black wire from the multifunction swich on the column and i apply 12v, the low beams do not light.
~refer to post 1 of what i found,, this i didnt expect.,, directly relates to the dual relay single fuse "thefoeyouknow headlamp mod with low&high at the same time"
now, to your points,
Ign sw run
~i need one relay to achieve this to pull heat off the switch
Ign sw ACCY
~i need one relay to achieve this to pull heat off the switch
Headlamps
~i could do one relay to get hi/low working but the relay would have to be between the main light switch and the multifuction switch. This would "allow' the heat to pass through the multifuction switch. This i did not want.
~i have dual relays downstream of the multifunction switch using the yellow and red/blk wires to trigger a high and low beam relay set
Exterior maker lamps
~did you know that leaving these on the headlamp switch produces 160degF on the switch? this was a factor i took into consideration back when i did my son's car ,, his is relay slaved with only two relays, one for the high, low beam, one for exterior marker lamps, one spare
I need to slave the marker lamps as well of the main light switch and doing so with the dual brown wires resurected some old notes i took as lessons learned from my son's upgrade.
so my count of relays is 5 ,, is it not prudent to have a spare for redunduncy or to move a circuit incase of a failure on a relay,, thats why i chose a 6bank relay pack to gather all the above systems and slave them.
Now i am being told i can do ****ALL this on one relay?
that leads to my question again that never got an answer, how do i do both headlamps on one relay and run them in such a way that they can be either low beam or low combined with HIGH ,, **and be downstream of the column mounted multifunction switch. I was finally told that couldnt be done but yet we are back to busting my balls because i didnt do what couldnt be done.
Here are my requirements for this modification so please just relax and calm down and understand what my objectives are.
I need all original oem factory equipment to operate as it did from the factor yet add slave relays in strategic wired points such that these new slave relays are transparant to the vehichles operation.
I need my lamps, ign sw and my auto lamps to operated as though there are no slave relays in place.>>this part has become very tricky. Which leads me to my point that even the mod by "thefoeyouknow" does not operate properly if "autolamp" is picked. This mod does work if no autolamp is picked. The reason for my post 1 is to bring up a topic that i am happy softtouch and foe both pointed me to an alternate direction to examine. I am not perfect, i asked a question and for some reason , now i am beng told i have something that is over engineered. when i quantify the systems i "should" slave, and in the manner that pulls the heat off the widest area, i come up with 5 relays.
Tom~
lets stop and examine the application if your interested.
You have been asked when you contributed to other posts to produce a drawing or a sketch that melds into this cars design showing one relay that ****DOES NOT*** put power through the mulltifuction switch.
I have a solution for one relay but again, its betweent he multifunction switch and the main headlamp switch. I do not want heat on either so again, what is your solution?
you say one relay but yet you now in post 7 start to illude to the fact that you normally do 3? whats so bad about my slaving two more devices?
Foe , tom and softtouch
~maybe your misunderstanding me... im not sure how clear i could have been as i worded the post 1 carefully, heck i even drew a picture.
~the position of the main switch or multifunction swich is not relavent. the battery was disconnected when i asked the question. I ****EXTRACTED*** the wires from the multifunction switch connector. I applied power to the yellow and i made the high beam illuminate but yet when i applied power to the red/black the lows did not come on.
Softtouch~
there is not primary power wire for low beam illustratrated on the column mounted multifunction switch for pages 81, 84 or 85.
There is no other schematic that is installed in the 87evtm like page77 and thus far page 77 correctly illustrates the wiring layout except for ckt 13A which seems to not be mentioned. As required, i will skip over from page 77 to a sub system that is on my car by following the notes. Ths red black wire is not showing up as a dead end anywhere that i can detect... thats all i was asking.
I do not understand why you would not expect to light up the high beams in fashion i described. the lows never came on, that caused post 1.
foe- how is the qty of relays for my application too many? same for you tom?
i am happy to listen and if you can show a way that all these can be done with one relay.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 12:09:59 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 12:09:59 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406227
Actually, Tom, the mfs is already slaved by way of the hi-lo relay, the current for either, on the other hand, all comes through the headlight switch, and maxes out at under 15A. If you MUST slave anything, it would be that, however, on an autolamp system, its just easier to divert the switch output to the autolamp #1 relay and use the actual headlamp switch to activate the slave side of the autolamp system. 1 cut and 1 splice. Done. Click here (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor") for my take on wiring modifications.
again, there are two modes of "original operation"
Manual and auto lamp.
i want all that to work "like nothing ever happened."
i will check your your link later, more ideas are great.
by the way, to your comment that i got in trouble,, no im fine. just because i post a question doesnt mean i burnt the house down.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 12:13:28 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 12:13:28 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406227
Actually, Tom, the mfs is already slaved by way of the hi-lo relay, .
wrong, cars **WITHOUT** extra features travel b+ from the headlamp switch, through the multifunction switch and out to the headlamps.
heat disipation is apparent on the main switch, mfs and the bulbs along with any high resistance connection points.
the only relay in the standard wiring diagram "headlamp related" is the flash to pass relay.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 12:16:00 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 12:16:00 AM
Hopefully, before you go, you will tell me your system type. autolamp + autodim, or autolamp only?
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 05, 2013, 01:14:19 AM
Post by: softtouch on January 05, 2013, 01:14:19 AM
Are you trying to make one setup that will work for every car no matter what features they have?
I am not sure that is doable. But I have not really looked into it.
Is your wiring still stock?
With autolamp/auto dimmer both high and low beams are powered through the dimmer relay.
The yellow wire on the MF switch goes to the pick coil of the dimmer relay. It does not go directly to the high beams.
So with stock wiring the hi-beams should not have come on with 12v applied to the yellow wire.(unless you also had the main headlight switch on and the autolamp switch off.)
If you have already made the headlight switch mods, link me to a diagram where I can study it.
I am not sure that is doable. But I have not really looked into it.
Is your wiring still stock?
With autolamp/auto dimmer both high and low beams are powered through the dimmer relay.
The yellow wire on the MF switch goes to the pick coil of the dimmer relay. It does not go directly to the high beams.
So with stock wiring the hi-beams should not have come on with 12v applied to the yellow wire.(unless you also had the main headlight switch on and the autolamp switch off.)
If you have already made the headlight switch mods, link me to a diagram where I can study it.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 02:50:02 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 02:50:02 AM
Figure 1.
This is from 88, but it's the same as 87. I used 88 because my scans are clearer than yours. What we're doing is pulling circuits 14 and 15 off of the headlight switch. You can do this anyway you want, but because for the moment I'm telling you what to think, what you should do is cut both the red/yellow wires a couple inches from the connector and then join them together. At the connector, you'll connect a length of wire to R/Y (it won't be carrying more than a few hundred mA now so it won't need to be very big) and splice to circuit 218 near Autolamp#1 relay. Autolamp#1, when energized, sends power down circuit to both Autolamp#2 primary and to feed the dimmer relay which in turn powers the headlights. Autolamp#2, when energized by Autolamp#1, sends power down circuit to circuit 14 (running lights). The system, with the addition of 1 wire and 1 splice, is now completely slaved and will function as stock. EDIT: This mod does not work in this layout, see post 61 (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?35111-Hi-beam-and-Lo-beam-question&p=406996#post406996") for a final and verified mod diagram.
This is from 88, but it's the same as 87. I used 88 because my scans are clearer than yours. What we're doing is pulling circuits 14 and 15 off of the headlight switch. You can do this anyway you want, but because for the moment I'm telling you what to think, what you should do is cut both the red/yellow wires a couple inches from the connector and then join them together. At the connector, you'll connect a length of wire to R/Y (it won't be carrying more than a few hundred mA now so it won't need to be very big) and splice to circuit 218 near Autolamp#1 relay. Autolamp#1, when energized, sends power down circuit to both Autolamp#2 primary and to feed the dimmer relay which in turn powers the headlights. Autolamp#2, when energized by Autolamp#1, sends power down circuit to circuit 14 (running lights). The system, with the addition of 1 wire and 1 splice, is now completely slaved and will function as stock. EDIT: This mod does not work in this layout, see post 61 (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?35111-Hi-beam-and-Lo-beam-question&p=406996#post406996") for a final and verified mod diagram.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 02:59:51 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 02:59:51 AM
Quote from: softtouch;406235
Are you trying to make one setup that will work for every car no matter what features they have?
I am not sure that is doable. But I have not really looked into it.
Is your wiring still stock?
With autolamp/auto dimmer both high and low beams are powered through the dimmer relay.
The yellow wire on the MF switch goes to the pick coil of the dimmer relay. It does not go directly to the high beams.
So with stock wiring the hi-beams should not have come on with 12v applied to the yellow wire.(unless you also had the main headlight switch on and the autolamp switch off.)
If you have already made the headlight switch mods, link me to a diagram where I can study it.
no, not making a system universal, however, in a way i could say yes because this design would fall into any of our cars without a hitch, so yes i guess is the answer, never thought if it like that but i dont see why this wouldnt work with any of our cars. its just a relay bank with main cb and fuse...pretty generic if you ask me.
my system is stock, no mods other than this relay bank
--all i can tell you is that when i put power on the yellow wire shown on page 77, my high beams light up.
I agree it is not yellow home run to the lamps, but with no battey connected to the car and with the yellow extracted from the MF sw, i was able to make high beam come on by injecting the yellow with 12v. i know what your talking about though, i traced it out and ultimatly decided its due to the way the contacts are resting that is allowing me to get out to the high elements. for that part i agree with what you said earlier,, but this is also why i said,, "i expected to get hi beams when i put power on the yellow wire (as it was pulled out of the physical connector ,, and the battery cable was not hooked up.
yes, the mods and drawings are on the other thread here in electrical tech, you can examine them there but there is no pages pertaining to auto lamps because that didnt seem required , after peekign at foes dialog, i may have a different take on this.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 03:02:10 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 03:02:10 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406234
Hopefully, before you go, you will tell me your system type. autolamp + autodim, or autolamp only?
its a 20th anniv ,,
has auto lamp and auto dim
no wiring mods except this but its all designed with a safe back out plan incase i want to go back to factory layout.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 03:02:11 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 03:02:11 AM
Figure 2.
This is my Hi-Lo mod, whereby you cause the low beams to stay on while the High beams are activated (a must if you have or are adding Bi-Xenon HID projectors). You can see that R/Y feeds the relay and that when the relay is energized (shown energized in the diagram as noted on the diagram) power is diverted from the low beams to the high beams. To keep them on together, I use a 6 or so inch SINGLE STRAND from a piece of 12awg wire to bridge circuit 15 to circuit 13. The diagram doesn't show this, but on the vehicle the two run side by side and I remove 1/2 inch of insulation from both and then I tightly wrap the strand around both and then solder and tape. Low beams will now remain on when the relay energizes. I did this because I retrofit projectors and I didn't want to use the junk relay kit that you get with the kit. If you have a TC, your fogs will stay on also. I would fix this by adding a 5 pin interrupt relay, but since I don't have a TC I never have.
This is my Hi-Lo mod, whereby you cause the low beams to stay on while the High beams are activated (a must if you have or are adding Bi-Xenon HID projectors). You can see that R/Y feeds the relay and that when the relay is energized (shown energized in the diagram as noted on the diagram) power is diverted from the low beams to the high beams. To keep them on together, I use a 6 or so inch SINGLE STRAND from a piece of 12awg wire to bridge circuit 15 to circuit 13. The diagram doesn't show this, but on the vehicle the two run side by side and I remove 1/2 inch of insulation from both and then I tightly wrap the strand around both and then solder and tape. Low beams will now remain on when the relay energizes. I did this because I retrofit projectors and I didn't want to use the junk relay kit that you get with the kit. If you have a TC, your fogs will stay on also. I would fix this by adding a 5 pin interrupt relay, but since I don't have a TC I never have.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 03:17:09 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 03:17:09 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406237
Figure 1.
This is from 88, but it's the same as 87. I used 88 because my scans are clearer than yours. What we're doing is pulling circuits 14 and 15 off of the headlight switch. You can do this anyway you want, but because for the moment I'm telling you what to think, what you should do is cut both the red/yellow wires a couple inches from the connector and then join them together. At the connector, you'll connect a length of wire to R/Y (it won't be carrying more than a few hundred mA now so it won't need to be very big) and splice to circuit 218 near Autolamp#1 relay. Autolamp#1, when energized, sends power down circuit to both Autolamp#2 primary and to feed the dimmer relay which in turn powers the headlights. Autolamp#2, when energized by Autolamp#1, sends power down circuit to circuit 14 (running lights). The system, with the addition of 1 wire and 1 splice, is now completely slaved and will function as stock.
I see what your doing there, your looping b2 back into b3 then using the switch motion to pick autolamp relay1 and its a home run from there.
this never occured to me to be honest, doing this would mean i would delete the manual headlamp mode, not sure if im wording it correctly or not ,yet again another clever way to do something. From the outside looking in though, wouldnt i not have a redundant light source if this auto lamp system were to fail?
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 03:25:52 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 03:25:52 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406240
Figure 2.
This is my Hi-Lo mod, whereby you cause the low beams to stay on while the High beams are activated (a must if you have or are adding Bi-Xenon HID projectors). You can see that R/Y feeds the relay and that when the relay is energized (shown energized in the diagram as noted on the diagram) power is diverted from the low beams to the high beams. To keep them on together, I use a 6 or so inch SINGLE STRAND from a piece of 12awg wire to bridge circuit 15 to circuit 13. The diagram doesn't show this, but on the vehicle the two run side by side and I remove 1/2 inch of insulation from both and then I tightly wrap the strand around both and then solder and tape. Low beams will now remain on when the relay energizes. I did this because I retrofit projectors and I didn't want to use the junk relay kit that you get with the kit. If you have a TC, your fogs will stay on also. I would fix this by adding a 5 pin interrupt relay, but since I don't have a TC I never have.
I never considered looping the hi/lo at this relay relay though. in my previous statement, depending on the state of this headlamp dimmer relay, i was backfeeding the RY ckt, was causing odd behavior of the auto lamps while in manual mode. didnt feel right so i back off of this area all together.
i do like this though, i may add it.
doing this jumper probably means that flash to pass wont have its full effect unless your in low beam,, right? thats what i see
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 03:35:50 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 03:35:50 AM
Quote from: softtouch;406235
If you have already made the headlight switch mods, link me to a diagram where I can study it.
here you go
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?35095-Relay-bank-mod-COMPLETE-for-IGN-switch-Headlamp-and-Marker-lamps
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 03:37:54 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 03:37:54 AM
The beauty of the mod in figure 1 is that you're not activating the Autolamps, you're just activating it's relays. When you turn off the manual switch, and allow the Autolamps system to work, the trigger wire you added is open in the switch, so there are no backfeeds. It would be seamless to, say, have the Autolamps set to ON in bright light conditions where the system would stay dark, but the manual switch set to ON also (the lights would be ON), but when it got dark, you would shut off the manual switch while the lights would remain ON at the command of the Autolamps system. Operation would remain transparent. These relays hardly ever fail, and I've never heard of the amplifier module going bad on ANY Ford, ever. It seems so simple a mod that it should have been this way from the beginning.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 03:39:38 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 03:39:38 AM
I can't sleep, so I made a modded diagram of the Hi-Lo mod for the TC guys.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 04:08:49 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 04:08:49 AM
you mean this?
notice my red/yel wire says it goes to the m/f sw while yours says it goes to headlamps,, thoughts?
other than my colors are backwards ,,lol, but is this the gist of it?
i dont understand how this pulls the headlamp heat off the switch main light switch????????????? it appears to still be there after it runs its circle.
notice my red/yel wire says it goes to the m/f sw while yours says it goes to headlamps,, thoughts?
other than my colors are backwards ,,lol, but is this the gist of it?
i dont understand how this pulls the headlamp heat off the switch main light switch????????????? it appears to still be there after it runs its circle.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 09:30:52 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 09:30:52 AM
You don't need to tie the parking lights at the switch to anything. Just the headlamps to the autolamps. The autolamp relays will turn the park lamps on for you. You trigger relay 1, relay 1 triggers the headlamps AND relay 2, relay 2 powers up the parking lamps. circuit 15 to circuit 218. Leave circuit 14's terminal at the headlamp switch completely empty. You're moving the "heat" from the switch, which normally carries as much as 20A, to the autolamp relays. The headlamp switch will now only be carrying a few hundred mA, or only what it takes to energize the autolamp1 relay. Autolamp1 will do the rest for you. After that, the switch only powers the instrument panel backlighting, which you can't avoid, and the Autolamp1 relay primary coil.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 05, 2013, 11:30:03 AM
Post by: softtouch on January 05, 2013, 11:30:03 AM
I like Foe's no extra relays needed solution to the headlight modification.
I looked at your drawing mods and don't see anything that would cause the 12v on the yellow wire from the MF switch to turn on the hi-beams.
You should trouble shoot the problem. Maybe the PO made some changes you are not aware of.
I looked at your drawing mods and don't see anything that would cause the 12v on the yellow wire from the MF switch to turn on the hi-beams.
You should trouble shoot the problem. Maybe the PO made some changes you are not aware of.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 05, 2013, 11:47:51 AM
Post by: softtouch on January 05, 2013, 11:47:51 AM
As to your concerns about the R/BK wire from the MF switch ending at C234. Looks like they use the same cable harness in the steering column for both non-auto and auto feature. But a different harnesses under the dash on the down stream side of C234.
Since the lo-beam part of the MF switch is not used with auto feature, in ends at the connector.
The yellow wire from the MF does not connect to the LG/BK wire at C234 as shown on page 77. It connects to another yellow wire going to the dimmer relay.
The LG/BK wire at C234 connects to the dimmer relay hi-beam output.
Since the lo-beam part of the MF switch is not used with auto feature, in ends at the connector.
The yellow wire from the MF does not connect to the LG/BK wire at C234 as shown on page 77. It connects to another yellow wire going to the dimmer relay.
The LG/BK wire at C234 connects to the dimmer relay hi-beam output.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 12:47:55 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 12:47:55 PM
foe~got it, will try this today, my system is unplug / replug back in to original spots.
as a side note, i noticed that my instrumentation cluster is much brighter while in auto lamp mod rather than while in manaual mode when operating my slave relays. This is the same situation if the slave relays were not in place. due to length of wires or for whatever reason, running lamps in auto lamp mode has yielded better interior lighting quality , path of least resistance and all.
softtouch~ am warming up the garage now, will see if the yellow wire transitions to lg/bk at c234. this is the only way i could have highs.
C234 is hard to get to, gotta lay on my back under the steering column, reach in through the hole where the lamp switches are then reach over the fuse panel then pull the connector apart, and you dont get to watch any of this happen while your doing it ether because your staring right at the fuses.
I do like this option as well now, i see how this would put me on a singel headlamp system though, no redunduncy,, its a matter of choice though and this might be the better option.
as a side note, i noticed that my instrumentation cluster is much brighter while in auto lamp mod rather than while in manaual mode when operating my slave relays. This is the same situation if the slave relays were not in place. due to length of wires or for whatever reason, running lamps in auto lamp mode has yielded better interior lighting quality , path of least resistance and all.
softtouch~ am warming up the garage now, will see if the yellow wire transitions to lg/bk at c234. this is the only way i could have highs.
C234 is hard to get to, gotta lay on my back under the steering column, reach in through the hole where the lamp switches are then reach over the fuse panel then pull the connector apart, and you dont get to watch any of this happen while your doing it ether because your staring right at the fuses.
I do like this option as well now, i see how this would put me on a singel headlamp system though, no redunduncy,, its a matter of choice though and this might be the better option.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 01:40:27 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 01:40:27 PM
before i go out and do this, sometimes i have to saintiy check things like with my work where lives are at steak,, not that this is the situation but yet........ here is the question......
Why didnt ford do this exact same thing on the original design?
is it risk management in that "if the relays were to fail" you will not have lamps?
its not like they are bonded directly to hi and low beams and that leads me to a nother thought....
if auto lamp relay 1 were a 5pin , then if power were lost to the coil or coil opened, when the main light switch were turned on, you could have a conductor wired to low beams to get you home???? this conductor would go from pin 87A of autolamp relay 1 to low beams.
This is based on a large assumption that the contacts remained in place to deliver said power out to low beams.
this leads to another queston or thought, what part of relays generally fail? i have noticed that relay coils with diodes have coils that fail to work correctly but my gut says since the contacts carry the current, they would fail more often than the trigger coil.
thoughts?
this may add the factory "fail safe" back in.
Why didnt ford do this exact same thing on the original design?
is it risk management in that "if the relays were to fail" you will not have lamps?
its not like they are bonded directly to hi and low beams and that leads me to a nother thought....
if auto lamp relay 1 were a 5pin , then if power were lost to the coil or coil opened, when the main light switch were turned on, you could have a conductor wired to low beams to get you home???? this conductor would go from pin 87A of autolamp relay 1 to low beams.
This is based on a large assumption that the contacts remained in place to deliver said power out to low beams.
this leads to another queston or thought, what part of relays generally fail? i have noticed that relay coils with diodes have coils that fail to work correctly but my gut says since the contacts carry the current, they would fail more often than the trigger coil.
thoughts?
this may add the factory "fail safe" back in.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 07:28:48 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 07:28:48 PM
I converted over to your mod FOE,
it does not work correctly.
when i turn the key forward with no lamps selected, interior all is well.
when i select middle pos of the headlamp switch, i get no exterior marker lamps , i also do not hear a relay engergize.
when i select headlamps, all exterior lamps and headlamps come on.
if i leave the auto lamp switch on so that the headlamps shut off automatically, this does not work, they stay on.
gonna get some food then hit it again,,,
what is the issue ? i wired it just like you said and also updated my previous drawing. did you answer my question about my red/yellow wire is labeled differently than your 88 bird, mine goes to my multifuction switch but yours goes to you headlamps..?? per your 88evtm
see below pics, this does not include anythign having to do with runnign low/high together. i have not wired that section in. only the switch bypass wire as you instructed.
it does not work correctly.
when i turn the key forward with no lamps selected, interior all is well.
when i select middle pos of the headlamp switch, i get no exterior marker lamps , i also do not hear a relay engergize.
when i select headlamps, all exterior lamps and headlamps come on.
if i leave the auto lamp switch on so that the headlamps shut off automatically, this does not work, they stay on.
gonna get some food then hit it again,,,
what is the issue ? i wired it just like you said and also updated my previous drawing. did you answer my question about my red/yellow wire is labeled differently than your 88 bird, mine goes to my multifuction switch but yours goes to you headlamps..?? per your 88evtm
see below pics, this does not include anythign having to do with runnign low/high together. i have not wired that section in. only the switch bypass wire as you instructed.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 09:07:43 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 09:07:43 PM
Also my auto lamp auto exit elimination is not working. I expected this after seeing the auto lamps are acting up. Anyone out there
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 10:13:33 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 10:13:33 PM
well,
it looks like this blew up my auto lamp system.
foe~post a picture of your system on your bird that you did this mod to.
i have saved the threads in text, my internet may be down for a while , may be several days. 304 772 3411 if you can assist pls.
I was concerned with bonding to the white pink wire , after looking at the criss cross relay wiring, i do not believe the relays are getting 12v power from the light sensor but the light sensor is kinda providing a digital input I/O so to speak.
agree?
need help
i had everything fine with one small and very minior exception,, i easily reverted back to stock and then applied this mod, now my car has lost its auto lamp feature,, lets see what the cause it.
right now everything is hooked back up stock with only my ignition switch run / accy slaved.
it looks like this blew up my auto lamp system.
foe~post a picture of your system on your bird that you did this mod to.
i have saved the threads in text, my internet may be down for a while , may be several days. 304 772 3411 if you can assist pls.
I was concerned with bonding to the white pink wire , after looking at the criss cross relay wiring, i do not believe the relays are getting 12v power from the light sensor but the light sensor is kinda providing a digital input I/O so to speak.
agree?
need help
i had everything fine with one small and very minior exception,, i easily reverted back to stock and then applied this mod, now my car has lost its auto lamp feature,, lets see what the cause it.
right now everything is hooked back up stock with only my ignition switch run / accy slaved.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 10:40:45 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 10:40:45 PM
Been out of town all day, sorry. I would have expected the 'running lights only' switch position to not work. It seemed acceptable to me, since I never run on just park lamps.
First check Fuse 18. If it's blown replace it and let us know if Autolamp comes back. It's possible that we may need a diode.
First check Fuse 18. If it's blown replace it and let us know if Autolamp comes back. It's possible that we may need a diode.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 10:54:10 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 10:54:10 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406285
Been out of town all day, sorry. I would have expected the 'running lights only' switch position to not work. It seemed acceptable to me, since I never run on just park lamps.
First check Fuse 18. If it's blown replace it and let us know if Autolamp comes back. It's possible that we may need a diode.
i considered a blocking diode on the slight sensor "relay output side" but didnt see you mentioned you needed one so i didnt.
have you done this perticular mod yet>?
fuse18 is good as well as all other fuses,,
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 10:56:22 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 10:56:22 PM
i just undid your mod and my autolamps no longer operate.
im kinda t'd off now but it is what it is, pls tell me where i wired what incorrectly because i dont see it.
thanks,, i gotta really get this rectified by tomorrow afternoon drop dead.
like i said , i had it all working ,, but,, took this drawing to mean it was already tested, was it? if not, we gotta take it down and put it up right so nobody does this one.
im kinda t'd off now but it is what it is, pls tell me where i wired what incorrectly because i dont see it.
thanks,, i gotta really get this rectified by tomorrow afternoon drop dead.
like i said , i had it all working ,, but,, took this drawing to mean it was already tested, was it? if not, we gotta take it down and put it up right so nobody does this one.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 11:03:05 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 11:03:05 PM
I didn't say I had. I said I had done the combined lo-hi mod. I was under the impression we were crowd-sourcing a mod design. If you want, I'll try building it out over here next week on mine. I'll bet it was fine until Autolamp1 relay got a combined signal. I've got some PCM power diodes sitting around, if I build it out, I'll have to try one in the jumper wire. What do you think the chances are that the amplifier board has a lifted track? The diagram doesn't give us an internal view of the amplifier, unfortunately.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 05, 2013, 11:07:30 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 05, 2013, 11:07:30 PM
Jay just a question. Jr called me in to the body shop Friday to trouble shoot a problem with a new Benz. The fog lights would not work after the body was fixes. It washiznit in the front. When the Fog lights were turned on they blinked and would not stay on. So over to my new system to pull a print on the circuit. What do you know The 140 Grand Benz has an electronic eye that prevents the fog lights from coming on in the day time. It turns out to be a fuel saving device. That beats all in my book but never the less true. So it got me thinking as usual. Why not incorporate this in the MIDNIGHTER for the head lights??? So with that i need a photo cell that can control a relay to turn my headlights on. I was told Radio Shack had one that works on 12 Volts. Not 100% as i have not gone there yet. If i can find one other than the one in the Benz or my alero. I am going to wire the midnighter for auto on off control when it gets dark. This way i can eliminate the headlight switch completely. I have wired daylight running lights in Bruiser with good results but this is even better. So my quest for a photo cell that i can use for this application. I will try it out on bruiser and post back. Now where to get one??? I will go to the junk yard on Monday and see if i can get an auto control out of a car that has this feature. I think auto on lights would be a cool addition to my T Bird what do you think??
Note i do not have auto dim or walk away illumination. But i think what i am doing can be incorporated in the system easily if i can find an aqlero with the same feature as mine or my Silverado. They both have signal century of dark lamp on circuitry. This way the system can be simple and the headlight switch can be removed and installed in the trash can. Input please??
Note i do not have auto dim or walk away illumination. But i think what i am doing can be incorporated in the system easily if i can find an aqlero with the same feature as mine or my Silverado. They both have signal century of dark lamp on circuitry. This way the system can be simple and the headlight switch can be removed and installed in the trash can. Input please??
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 11:14:47 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 05, 2013, 11:14:47 PM
I've added an edit to my post with the modded diagram. I don't want anybody else burning out an amplifier because they took my brainstorming for something else. I'm still interested in seeing it work, so I'm going to work it out on mine.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 11:20:22 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 11:20:22 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406244
The beauty of the mod in figure 1 is that you're not activating the Autolamps, you're just activating it's relays. When you turn off the manual switch, and allow the Autolamps system to work, the trigger wire you added is open in the switch, so there are no backfeeds. It would be seamless to, say, have the Autolamps set to ON in bright light conditions where the system would stay dark, but the manual switch set to ON also (the lights would be ON), but when it got dark, you would shut off the manual switch while the lights would remain ON at the command of the Autolamps system. Operation would remain transparent. These relays hardly ever fail, and I've never heard of the amplifier module going bad on ANY Ford, ever. It seems so simple a mod that it should have been this way from the beginning.
sorry man but based on what you said here and the previous post, i kinda feel like ive been had.
pls do us a favor and dont post such confidence in your posts in such a way that makes it clearly apparent that this was the way it should have been done all along without first testing your write up.
this is a tech thread and it cant be misleading.
to be honest and truthful with everyone i have been working on this mod wire for wire circuit for circuit carefully and communicating almost daily with updates and comprehensive information (be it wrong or correct) it is information that ends up being useful in the end . you were not around when "incorrect information" burnt down a mans turbocoupe on here because the data was looking great on paper.
im done with this thread and i will find my problem and revert back to the over engineered solution that was previously working. I am not mad, i made a choice but now i have to back my car out of the garage in trade for two other projects and hunt down the fault later,, hope its an auto lamp module but i have no spares.
sorry if i sound rude but the item in bold above lent to the blind assumption that you had done this, coupled with my knowing i have confidence in your tech work you do, the risk was mine to take and i did. The item in bold above never ever appeared in any of the previous relay mod discussions , this just appeared out of nowhere like it just gave birth but i was certain you must have figured this out and fogot or just didnt get around to posting it.
we all make mistakes, just pls test stuff first before hand,, we are cool, no worries, no tears. life rolls on.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 11:30:20 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2013, 11:30:20 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;406291
Jay just a question. Jr called me in to the body shop Friday to trouble shoot a problem with a new Benz. The fog lights would not work after the body was fixes. It washiznit in the front. When the Fog lights were turned on they blinked and would not stay on. So over to my new system to pull a print on the circuit. What do you know The 140 Grand Benz has an electronic eye that prevents the fog lights from coming on in the day time. It turns out to be a fuel saving device. That beats all in my book but never the less true. So it got me thinking as usual. Why not incorporate this in the MIDNIGHTER for the head lights??? So with that i need a photo cell that can control a relay to turn my headlights on. I was told Radio Shack had one that works on 12 Volts. Not 100% as i have not gone there yet. If i can find one other than the one in the Benz or my alero. I am going to wire the midnighter for auto on off control when it gets dark. This way i can eliminate the headlight switch completely. I have wired daylight running lights in Bruiser with good results but this is even better. So my quest for a photo cell that i can use for this application. I will try it out on bruiser and post back. Now where to get one??? I will go to the junk yard on Monday and see if i can get an auto control out of a car that has this feature. I think auto on lights would be a cool addition to my T Bird what do you think??
Note i do not have auto dim or walk away illumination. But i think what i am doing can be incorporated in the system easily if i can find an aqlero with the same feature as mine or my Silverado. They both have signal century of dark lamp on circuitry. This way the system can be simple and the headlight switch can be removed and installed in the trash can. Input please??
to be truthful, these diagrams ford has are over complicated piles in some cases.
i could easily achieve headlamps on and off without a light switch and a parrallel retundunt circuit all on one relay that would be a built in fail safe incase the sensor failed or got dirty.
my head hurts just staring at my autolamp relays. look at them,, i swear the light sensor is triggering auto relay 1 by way of a difference of potential and not actual power... the shop manual implies the sensor applies power,, cant prove it though but the "criss cross" relay arrangment with power and ground on either relay illudes to an applicaton that typically is only reserved for latching relays ,, i think i described that right.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 05, 2013, 11:37:15 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 05, 2013, 11:37:15 PM
I learned this years ago with snow plow lighting. I kind of knew this but posting sometimes gets me in trouble. I do not have a module i looked for you. If i had one it would already have been shipped. I will look tomorrow again as i know i have one somewhere Sorry man i feel bad Tom
Jay for what it"s worth i feel very bad about this and if you need something it is yours. I am going to tear he shop apart fro the module as i think not 100% they are obsolete. Hope not . Good luck Buddy. Had a thought maybe you can look at the circuit board and repair it. I think their is a relay in the system not 100% on this but it is worth a look. Good luck Tom!!
Jay for what it"s worth i feel very bad about this and if you need something it is yours. I am going to tear he shop apart fro the module as i think not 100% they are obsolete. Hope not . Good luck Buddy. Had a thought maybe you can look at the circuit board and repair it. I think their is a relay in the system not 100% on this but it is worth a look. Good luck Tom!!
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 06, 2013, 12:28:25 AM
Post by: softtouch on January 06, 2013, 12:28:25 AM
Sorry to hear this turned to . Yeah Foe had me sold too.
If you pull the O/W wire off the back of the headlight switch it will stop the auto from turning on the lights I believe it is a seperate one wire connector. This will get your car operational until you figure this out.
It does sound like the light sensor amp is blown.
If you pull the O/W wire off the back of the headlight switch it will stop the auto from turning on the lights I believe it is a seperate one wire connector. This will get your car operational until you figure this out.
It does sound like the light sensor amp is blown.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 06, 2013, 01:41:24 AM
Post by: softtouch on January 06, 2013, 01:41:24 AM
This may be the same p/n
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 06, 2013, 09:53:01 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 06, 2013, 09:53:01 AM
THAT LOOKS LIKE IT. JAY POST A PHOTO OF YOURS AS MY CARS DO NOT HAVE THAT FEATURE. Sorry i had the cap key on. But i have many modules from cars i parted out. Please post it as if i have one it is yours no worys about that. Thanks. I also have daylight running amplifiers and relays for big rigs. If you like i can send you a couple. I know it is different but what the heck!!!
Softtuch if all else fails he can use any amplifier from any car. Example GM like my alero. Or that TAURUS unit if he has the plug. Not the end of the world. I found this out as i said doing plow light circuits. Most modules wont handle the extra current. Sorry Jay!!
Softtuch if all else fails he can use any amplifier from any car. Example GM like my alero. Or that TAURUS unit if he has the plug. Not the end of the world. I found this out as i said doing plow light circuits. Most modules wont handle the extra current. Sorry Jay!!
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 06, 2013, 01:47:43 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 06, 2013, 01:47:43 PM
im gonna go with foe and open it up if possible, open it up to inspect for a blown run or a shorted diode ect,, if not ill set up with my safe back out plan until a relacement is found.
I looked through my pictures of my d stash and dont see a module.
I looked through my pictures of my d stash and dont see a module.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 07, 2013, 09:11:51 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 07, 2013, 09:11:51 AM
Moving forward, i decided to attempt a repair.
****warning- if you remove your module, remove the clock and "PUSH UP" on the cover around the module. I had no cracks in my dash at all but now since i assumed your suppose to pry the cover from the top, well thats that i did and oppsie~!!, i now have my first damage to what once was a mint top dash cover,, its pretty bad to. its my belief that if you heat up the interior first since its winter now, this will allow the top to flex and you can pop off the cover but if its cold,,, forget about it, the dash acts a fragile as corn flakes.
If by any chance someone has access to thier module, i need some ref voltage readings. I am not totally convienced that this mod it out, with a blocking diode, this may be the the way to trick screw the module into operating like normal.
here is what i have,
with the auto lamp relay 1 unplugged, ,,,
I have 0v output on the middle autolamp module pin wh/pk. i have both power inputs, one for "power" and one for Ignition.
The further downstream "timer" delayed exist circuit is !!!still working!! which tells me that the module itself has some interior parts still operational
What i have done,
visual inspection- found the + leg of the largest cap leg to board was disconnected,,, no signs of burning so it may have been my handling that caused this,, dono but its repaired.
measurements-
all caps seem to charge and discharge with my meter (without a diagram, not certain who is in paralell with who but technically i cant say there is a bad cap.
The very first diode D1 was reading kinda odd so i lifted one leg and i had an open one way and 1.3mg the other. i really wish i had had just taken voltage measurements, then i would have seen the normal .3 to .6 volts drop across each diode, maybe today. ignore the heat mark you see on the - side of D1, thats my discoloration from staying on the leg too long while removing D1. My son chance says he can see the window in D5 shows a larger opening compared to D4,, i cant see it , but I am finding D5 to be suspect next.
The resistors pretty much mesured up to thier color band value so i am happy that they are laid out from what i assume mostly series.
i am looking for voltage readings on the following :
either side of each diode as shown
voltage i assume as the input as typical on IC's on pin 1.
i will power my module up and hopefully this will narrow down the ckt.
on a side note,
with all devices plugged up and on like oem, when i turn on my headlamp switch, i get exterior marker lamps with the middle positon, then moving to headlamps i get my headlamps to come on, and * i hear / feel/ measure autolamp relay 2 energize.
I still dont really understand the criss cross relays but whatever they are doing, id like to learn the application, seems interesting of a layout and sorta breaks the rules we normally follow. i could be wrong.
with any luck, with voltage readings, i can quickly narrow down the issue, if its that IC, im prob screwed and will need another module.
****warning- if you remove your module, remove the clock and "PUSH UP" on the cover around the module. I had no cracks in my dash at all but now since i assumed your suppose to pry the cover from the top, well thats that i did and oppsie~!!, i now have my first damage to what once was a mint top dash cover,, its pretty bad to. its my belief that if you heat up the interior first since its winter now, this will allow the top to flex and you can pop off the cover but if its cold,,, forget about it, the dash acts a fragile as corn flakes.
If by any chance someone has access to thier module, i need some ref voltage readings. I am not totally convienced that this mod it out, with a blocking diode, this may be the the way to trick screw the module into operating like normal.
here is what i have,
with the auto lamp relay 1 unplugged, ,,,
I have 0v output on the middle autolamp module pin wh/pk. i have both power inputs, one for "power" and one for Ignition.
The further downstream "timer" delayed exist circuit is !!!still working!! which tells me that the module itself has some interior parts still operational
What i have done,
visual inspection- found the + leg of the largest cap leg to board was disconnected,,, no signs of burning so it may have been my handling that caused this,, dono but its repaired.
measurements-
all caps seem to charge and discharge with my meter (without a diagram, not certain who is in paralell with who but technically i cant say there is a bad cap.
The very first diode D1 was reading kinda odd so i lifted one leg and i had an open one way and 1.3mg the other. i really wish i had had just taken voltage measurements, then i would have seen the normal .3 to .6 volts drop across each diode, maybe today. ignore the heat mark you see on the - side of D1, thats my discoloration from staying on the leg too long while removing D1. My son chance says he can see the window in D5 shows a larger opening compared to D4,, i cant see it , but I am finding D5 to be suspect next.
The resistors pretty much mesured up to thier color band value so i am happy that they are laid out from what i assume mostly series.
i am looking for voltage readings on the following :
either side of each diode as shown
voltage i assume as the input as typical on IC's on pin 1.
i will power my module up and hopefully this will narrow down the ckt.
on a side note,
with all devices plugged up and on like oem, when i turn on my headlamp switch, i get exterior marker lamps with the middle positon, then moving to headlamps i get my headlamps to come on, and * i hear / feel/ measure autolamp relay 2 energize.
I still dont really understand the criss cross relays but whatever they are doing, id like to learn the application, seems interesting of a layout and sorta breaks the rules we normally follow. i could be wrong.
with any luck, with voltage readings, i can quickly narrow down the issue, if its that IC, im prob screwed and will need another module.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: Trinom on January 08, 2013, 03:57:35 PM
Post by: Trinom on January 08, 2013, 03:57:35 PM
Here are the values. C is cathode, A is anode.
.........on......off
pin1:..5,9.....5,9
D1C:...14.......0
D1A:...14.....15,8
D2C:...5,1.....5,1
D2A:....0........0
D3C:...5,1......0
D3A:..1,25.....0,5
D4C:..13,4....15,1
D4A:..14,1....15,8
D5C:..13,5....15,2
D5A:..14,1....15,8
.........on......off
pin1:..5,9.....5,9
D1C:...14.......0
D1A:...14.....15,8
D2C:...5,1.....5,1
D2A:....0........0
D3C:...5,1......0
D3A:..1,25.....0,5
D4C:..13,4....15,1
D4A:..14,1....15,8
D5C:..13,5....15,2
D5A:..14,1....15,8
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 13, 2013, 08:08:39 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 13, 2013, 08:08:39 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406237
Figure 1.
This is from 88, but it's the same as 87. I used 88 because my scans are clearer than yours. What we're doing is pulling circuits 14 and 15 off of the headlight switch. You can do this anyway you want, but because for the moment I'm telling you what to think, what you should do is cut both the red/yellow wires a couple inches from the connector and then join them together. At the connector, you'll connect a length of wire to R/Y (it won't be carrying more than a few hundred mA now so it won't need to be very big) and splice to circuit 218 near Autolamp#1 relay. Autolamp#1, when energized, sends power down circuit to both Autolamp#2 primary and to feed the dimmer relay which in turn powers the headlights. Autolamp#2, when energized by Autolamp#1, sends power down circuit to circuit 14 (running lights). The system, with the addition of 1 wire and 1 splice, is now completely slaved and will function as stock. EDIT: right now this is not working. It may require a diode in the jumper.
I am intersted in picking this back up because in all rights, FOE is correct , I should not have to add slave relays for headlamps that already have slave relays.
as illustrated, can anyone see a solution here that would place a blocking diode at the auto lamp relay output? and keep the modification exaclty as foe has drawn? The diode placement would be as shown which would enable the amplifier to put out power without concern of the possibility of getting an input.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 13, 2013, 08:38:19 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 13, 2013, 08:38:19 PM
I've been thinking on this a lot,
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 13, 2013, 08:43:56 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 13, 2013, 08:43:56 PM
LOL,, ive been living it for what seems forever,, cant wait to see what your thoughts are other than a relay.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 13, 2013, 08:46:05 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 13, 2013, 08:46:05 PM
This should be able to trigger park lamps without triggering headlamps while also providing a path to backfeed the IP lights, in addition to being able to trigger the headlamps AND park lamps together with or without the autolamps ALSO on without blowing up another transistor. Transparent operation. IN THEORY. Feedback?
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 13, 2013, 09:41:03 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 13, 2013, 09:41:03 PM
The way I see it, the Autolamp2 Relay Diode needs to be able to carry 5A to feed the IP lights (5A is equal to the IP lights fuse). The Autolamps1 Relay Diode doesn't need to carry nearly as much current.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 13, 2013, 09:49:34 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 13, 2013, 09:49:34 PM
agreed, i recommend the lowest possible fuse for activation testing... i have some telecom "70G" and "GMT" fuses that go as low as 1/16th of an amp to protect the amplifier,, not that it will though.
i think i have a few 1/64th amp as well.
just google "gmt fuse"
now to get other heads on this and which direction to position the diode(s).
im gonna button up my interior tomorrow during my breaks,may take my work out there with me.
i think i have a few 1/64th amp as well.
just google "gmt fuse"
now to get other heads on this and which direction to position the diode(s).
im gonna button up my interior tomorrow during my breaks,may take my work out there with me.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406874
I've been thinking on this a lot,
i take it you took some time to dig into those goofy brown wires and what they do,, meaing what one of them does vs the other?
i had some time this morn to stare at this.
food for thought, we need to think through what happens when a diode shorts... odds are slim we may think but my collector to base on the transistor q2 shorted.. so it is a probable fault.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 08:45:43 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 08:45:43 AM
whaoo, i just had a thought>> amazing!
it never occured to me to pay attention to what "someone" said a while back but think it through from a different angle.
so,,,
i will provide heat readings on the main headlamp switch while in auto lamp mode.
I know for a fact the heat sync on the main headlamp switch gets hot while in the manual headlamp mode.
useful or not, it is more information.
it never occured to me to pay attention to what "someone"
so,,,
i will provide heat readings on the main headlamp switch while in auto lamp mode.
I know for a fact the heat sync on the main headlamp switch gets hot while in the manual headlamp mode.
useful or not, it is more information.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 14, 2013, 08:54:59 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 14, 2013, 08:54:59 AM
This should make it a little easier to see what the relays are doing. As for the diodes and their possible failure modes, I don't know diodes beyond what they do ie: electrical check valve. Naturally I hope I can lean on you to decide if diodes are going to be a viable solution. The alternative, as you have said, may be to install a fuse behind the relay1 diode. Circuit 14 powers the park lamps and activates the switchover relay that switches the digital speedo from full illumination from main power to managed illumination by the dimmer wheel.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 10:01:10 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 10:01:10 AM
i like your layout better.
for the fuse,, im not really sure the low amperage that is technically needed would be readily available to the average consumer... that part concerns me. i forgot to put my meter in series with the "relay output" while testing to measure the actual current supply but its its gonna be likely .00xA and maybe at highest .0xxA.
thats all you really need to know ,, its a check valve but, here is what you can take away today knowing the kind of work your challenged with at work, it may come in handy.... hope i get this right,,,,, my electronics "specifics" may be a tad rusty.
diodes typically come in two types.
silicone~
characteristics..
-will have .6v to .7v difference using your meter reading one side and then the other while installed in a live ckt.
-the silicone is "doped" with arsenic , from the periodic table arsenic has 5 electrons available on its valence shell (K shell)
-lifting one leg and using your meter set to ohms, the diode should read "something" one way and open the other.
~"something usually means around 600 to 700 ohms or kohms. the reason for this is that you are actually using your onboard meter 12v battery as source and theroretically, you have a series ckt ,, therefore your seeing a proportional voltage drop across the diode but its displayed on the meter as ohms cause you chose that part of ohms law.
~Germanium diode
characteristics~ same funcion as silicone..but
-will have .3v to .4v drop or difference on either side while installed in a live ckt.
-the germanium is doped with boron and from the periodic table, boron has 3 electrons availble in the valence shell... less conductive but does have its application.
speaking to transistors,,,,,, they are treated the same with an ohm meter reading from base to collector and base to emitter flipping your leads either way.
Knowing the orientation of a diode and how it "allows" your meter to pass power through it, you can determine a couple things.....
-if its good or not with 95% accuracy
-if its a PNP or an NPN.
for the fuse,, im not really sure the low amperage that is technically needed would be readily available to the average consumer... that part concerns me. i forgot to put my meter in series with the "relay output" while testing to measure the actual current supply but its its gonna be likely .00xA and maybe at highest .0xxA.
thats all you really need to know ,, its a check valve but, here is what you can take away today knowing the kind of work your challenged with at work, it may come in handy.... hope i get this right,,,,, my electronics "specifics" may be a tad rusty.
diodes typically come in two types.
silicone~
characteristics..
-will have .6v to .7v difference using your meter reading one side and then the other while installed in a live ckt.
-the silicone is "doped" with arsenic , from the periodic table arsenic has 5 electrons available on its valence shell (K shell)
-lifting one leg and using your meter set to ohms, the diode should read "something" one way and open the other.
~"something usually means around 600 to 700 ohms or kohms. the reason for this is that you are actually using your onboard meter 12v battery as source and theroretically, you have a series ckt ,, therefore your seeing a proportional voltage drop across the diode but its displayed on the meter as ohms cause you chose that part of ohms law.
~Germanium diode
characteristics~ same funcion as silicone..but
-will have .3v to .4v drop or difference on either side while installed in a live ckt.
-the germanium is doped with boron and from the periodic table, boron has 3 electrons availble in the valence shell... less conductive but does have its application.
speaking to transistors,,,,,, they are treated the same with an ohm meter reading from base to collector and base to emitter flipping your leads either way.
Knowing the orientation of a diode and how it "allows" your meter to pass power through it, you can determine a couple things.....
-if its good or not with 95% accuracy
-if its a PNP or an NPN.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 14, 2013, 12:18:15 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 14, 2013, 12:18:15 PM
How about a current limiting resistor in the jumper before the splice? We still use the diode to protect the Amp, but we also control the current being fed to the splice, that way, should the diode short, the module can't suck up a ton of current, just maybe 100mA (more than enough to energize the relay which will need about 60mA)
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 12:52:16 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 12:52:16 PM
Sounds good to me
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 05:49:15 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 05:49:15 PM
are we ready to piddle with the new mod "with the diodes"? im volunteering now : ),,, since i didnt get time to button up the car, i figured its easy as 1 2 3 to introduce this mod into a system. Hell ,, someones gotta try it.
here is trinom's suggested diode layout which is bass akwards from the way i thought they should go in to the live bi directional circuit.
my gut keeps telling me i want to protect the middle pin from getting an input.
here is trinom's suggested diode layout which is bass akwards from the way i thought they should go in to the live bi directional circuit.
my gut keeps telling me i want to protect the middle pin from getting an input.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 14, 2013, 06:05:09 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 14, 2013, 06:05:09 PM
See, I always thought the arrow showed the direction of flow, and the line was like a wall blocking from the other way.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 14, 2013, 06:13:29 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 14, 2013, 06:13:29 PM
Looked it up, electrons flow neg to pos, but the symbol shows charge flow which is opposite. My first diode diagram was right and I will now repost it. I also included the proposed current limiting resistor.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 06:16:49 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 06:16:49 PM
yep, u r rite,,,
google "hole flow" vs "electron flow" then tell me why im so retarted : )
google "hole flow" vs "electron flow" then tell me why im so retarted : )
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 14, 2013, 09:16:47 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 14, 2013, 09:16:47 PM
Jay it is my belief that the point of the arrow is the way the positive voltage passes through.
The marked side is the CATHODE and that is the plus side . The back side of the arrow is the anode. Positive flows from the ANODE TO THE CATHODE. If memory serves me.
The marked side is the CATHODE and that is the plus side . The back side of the arrow is the anode. Positive flows from the ANODE TO THE CATHODE. If memory serves me.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 11:20:32 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 11:20:32 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;407012
Jay it is my belief that the point of the arrow is the way the positive voltage passes through.
The marked side is the CATHODE and that is the plus side . The back side of the arrow is the anode. Positive flows from the ANODE TO THE CATHODE. If memory serves me.
tom, i totally brain farted and why??? because my dumb ass is ***always** so use to installing blocking diodes on the ground side of circuits and when you do that ,, then the diode needs flipped around.
on the hot side,, power flows "with" the arrow "anode".
on the ground side current goes "against the arrow "anode".
couple this with all my education and training (especially military) and it didnt help any that my college teachers were all C school instructors, they all taught "hole flow, negative to positive, its no wonder i can tie my shoes.
ok ,, next post is the results of todays experiement,, coming next.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 11:25:16 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 14, 2013, 11:25:16 PM
I have a few things i want to update this thread with so pay attention.
Pls scroll down to see my "trinom diode" setup.
OK, performed Trinom's diode setup first and i suspect it fails.
As described and diodes placed as drawn with my over current protection of 18/100th of an amp, when i turn my key forward, my headlamps come on.
Problem is i do not have auto lamps selected nor do i have manual lamps selected.!!! that is not a pass unless we want lamps all the time.
they did shut off on thier own though,, so not really sure how i should process what is happening but it sounds wrong.
I removed the "trinom mod" and my auto lamp amplifier survived. I integrated "thefoeyouknow" mod which means i did not have the red/yellow or brown wires connected to the main headlamp switch ,, and,,, i had a wire attached from the spot where the red/yellow's were bonded to the auto lamp relay as drawn. No change there, i just did not add the brown wire jumper that he shows.
With the diodes arranged like trinom has, it appears there is a conflict,, did not investigate further,, just updates on this task for now.
next,, and here is the twist.........
curiosity got the better of me so i got all my experimental wiring out of the way and reflected back on something said a while back and performed the "thought" that was spoken.
I removed the double red yellow wires from the main headlamp switch leaving the double browns in place.
-i turned my key forward and the headlamps **DID NOT come on.!!!
-i selected auto lamps and they came on!! so i kept them on and turned the key off,, they shut off like normal.!! i did not test the time delay but that concept seemed to work.
the down side is as soon as auto lamps "picked" the relays to energize, my instrument cluster lighting of all 100% items that are important (speedo, guages ect) were all not illuminated.
~~so it leads me to believe that i actually just relieved heat stress off the main headlamp switch by just removing the red/yellow pair from the main headlamp switch and i had a fully operatonal "autolamp system".!!!!!! see where im going.
so...... someone pls confirm and let see if we can "simply" remove the red yellows **BUT** re-integrate instrument cluster guage illumination,, No relay required ??? Could it really be this simple?
who knows yet but lets talk.
Pls scroll down to see my "trinom diode" setup.
OK, performed Trinom's diode setup first and i suspect it fails.
As described and diodes placed as drawn with my over current protection of 18/100th of an amp, when i turn my key forward, my headlamps come on.
Problem is i do not have auto lamps selected nor do i have manual lamps selected.!!! that is not a pass unless we want lamps all the time.
they did shut off on thier own though,, so not really sure how i should process what is happening but it sounds wrong.
I removed the "trinom mod" and my auto lamp amplifier survived. I integrated "thefoeyouknow" mod which means i did not have the red/yellow or brown wires connected to the main headlamp switch ,, and,,, i had a wire attached from the spot where the red/yellow's were bonded to the auto lamp relay as drawn. No change there, i just did not add the brown wire jumper that he shows.
With the diodes arranged like trinom has, it appears there is a conflict,, did not investigate further,, just updates on this task for now.
next,, and here is the twist.........
curiosity got the better of me so i got all my experimental wiring out of the way and reflected back on something said a while back and performed the "thought" that was spoken.
I removed the double red yellow wires from the main headlamp switch leaving the double browns in place.
-i turned my key forward and the headlamps **DID NOT come on.!!!
-i selected auto lamps and they came on!! so i kept them on and turned the key off,, they shut off like normal.!! i did not test the time delay but that concept seemed to work.
the down side is as soon as auto lamps "picked" the relays to energize, my instrument cluster lighting of all 100% items that are important (speedo, guages ect) were all not illuminated.
~~so it leads me to believe that i actually just relieved heat stress off the main headlamp switch by just removing the red/yellow pair from the main headlamp switch and i had a fully operatonal "autolamp system".!!!!!! see where im going.
so...... someone pls confirm and let see if we can "simply" remove the red yellows **BUT** re-integrate instrument cluster guage illumination,, No relay required ??? Could it really be this simple?
who knows yet but lets talk.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 12:29:03 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 12:29:03 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406994
See, I always thought the arrow showed the direction of flow, and the line was like a wall blocking from the other way.
do yourself a favor,
put your test light probe on the positive battery post
gator clip the diode to the test light clip, touch the free end of the diode to the negative battery post , flip it either way and see how when diode or'ing or blocking, its backwards when the diode is installed on the ground side vs when its on a power leg. now flip your test light around with the diode on the pos and test light on the neg batt post.
i keep hosing this up but oh well,no one's perfect.
in reality to a series ckt ,, its not backwards though, its an illusion
if you keep thinking of it the way you are doing, you'll always be right,, thats what matters. besides, people like me need constant baby sitting over thinking simple stuff like this,,lol.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 07:29:49 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 07:29:49 AM
So you did this then? There was no managed illumination or no unmanaged illumination? (unmanaged is full key-on brightness)
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 10:39:09 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 10:39:09 AM
yes, by having the double red/yellows off the sw, that is what i did after i back out of the trinom diode layout and removing your jumper that was shown as going to k1 coil.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 11:00:13 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 11:00:13 AM
None at all, or none of either? In any case, that power comes from fuse 4, check there. Trinom diode mod may have popped your autolamp relays/park lamp/ip lights fuse.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 11:10:00 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 11:10:00 AM
when i backed out of the trinom diode layout and *put everything back as oem**, i removed the double red/yellows from the headlamp switch.
-i turned my key forward and the headlamps **DID NOT come on.!!!
-i selected auto lamps and they came on!! so i observed the headlamps on and turned the key off,, the lights shut off like normal.
**when i heard the auto lamps relays click during the above, my full illumination for the cluster went dark.
-if i turned off auto lamps by using the thumbwheel, the headlamps went off but the instrument cluster illumination and guages came back.
quick call 304 772 3411 so i can verbally explain
your quick drawing illustrates what i did "after i backed out" of the trinom diode layout.
-i turned my key forward and the headlamps **DID NOT come on.!!!
-i selected auto lamps and they came on!! so i observed the headlamps on and turned the key off,, the lights shut off like normal.
**when i heard the auto lamps relays click during the above, my full illumination for the cluster went dark.
-if i turned off auto lamps by using the thumbwheel, the headlamps went off but the instrument cluster illumination and guages came back.
quick call 304 772 3411 so i can verbally explain
your quick drawing illustrates what i did "after i backed out" of the trinom diode layout.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 12:59:05 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 12:59:05 PM
i think i mis-spoke so here is the state of wiring / relays / lights / illumination once again ***WITHOUT ANY DIODES OR ANY WIRING MODIFICATIONS / ADDERS / RELAYS
-ign sw off
-remove red yellows from main light switch
-leave browns on main light switch.
-main light switch is off
-auto lamp thumbwheel is off
(AUTO LAMP OP CHECK) ign sw on
-instrumentation guages illuminate properly~pass
-headlamps do not come on~pass
-turn auto lamp thumbwheel to on =headlamps and markers come on~pass
-interior instrumentation illumination stays on~pass
-start car and i hear a relay toggle (headlamps flip off then back on after car starts) all interior and exterior illumination return to normal illumination.~acceptable
-turn off auto lamp thumbwheel and head / exterior lamps go off while interior illumination remains~pass
-turn on auto lamp thumbwheel and head / exterior lamps come back on ~pass
-turn ign sw off and all illumination stays on until the eventual auto lamp timer expiraton then all lamps go off.~pass
(MAIN LIGHT SWITCH OP CHECK) ign switch on
-interior lamps for cluster come on~pass
-turn on main light switch to marker middle pos and all marker lamps come on~pass
-turn on main light switch continuing on to headlamps=all head lamps do not come on~fail
-turn off main light switch and all exterior lamps go off as expected ~ pass
Conclusion~ if you want to relieve heat on the headlamp switch ***and you have "auto lamps", all you have to do is remove the red yellow pair from the main headlamp switch and protect the wire end. You will now be operating headlamps using your auto lamp relays only.
The loss is that your headlamp switch will no longer provide "headlamps" when you manually move the main headlamp switch to the "headlamp" position.
-ign sw off
-remove red yellows from main light switch
-leave browns on main light switch.
-main light switch is off
-auto lamp thumbwheel is off
(AUTO LAMP OP CHECK) ign sw on
-instrumentation guages illuminate properly~pass
-headlamps do not come on~pass
-turn auto lamp thumbwheel to on =headlamps and markers come on~pass
-interior instrumentation illumination stays on~pass
-start car and i hear a relay toggle (headlamps flip off then back on after car starts) all interior and exterior illumination return to normal illumination.~acceptable
-turn off auto lamp thumbwheel and head / exterior lamps go off while interior illumination remains~pass
-turn on auto lamp thumbwheel and head / exterior lamps come back on ~pass
-turn ign sw off and all illumination stays on until the eventual auto lamp timer expiraton then all lamps go off.~pass
(MAIN LIGHT SWITCH OP CHECK) ign switch on
-interior lamps for cluster come on~pass
-turn on main light switch to marker middle pos and all marker lamps come on~pass
-turn on main light switch continuing on to headlamps=all head lamps do not come on~fail
-turn off main light switch and all exterior lamps go off as expected ~ pass
Conclusion~ if you want to relieve heat on the headlamp switch ***and you have "auto lamps", all you have to do is remove the red yellow pair from the main headlamp switch and protect the wire end. You will now be operating headlamps using your auto lamp relays only.
The loss is that your headlamp switch will no longer provide "headlamps" when you manually move the main headlamp switch to the "headlamp" position.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 06:29:36 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 06:29:36 PM
Foe and all,, im gonna lead up to something here ,,, so here is the question or thought.......
It appears to you and i that "if" auto lamps are off,, and you *Choose* to use the manual headlamp switch, then power travels from source, through the switch and out to the headlamps,,,????? correct?(under normal conditions excluding any mods we discussed), And if so, then the auto lamp relays are not in the circuit during this situation,, correct?
while you are pondering the answer which i suspect will be something along the lines of ~yeah, duhh!
i will be doing your diode mod layout, i may back pedal and verify Trinoms works **without the second ground leg diode per our call today.
thanks! ~scott
It appears to you and i that "if" auto lamps are off,, and you *Choose* to use the manual headlamp switch, then power travels from source, through the switch and out to the headlamps,,,????? correct?(under normal conditions excluding any mods we discussed), And if so, then the auto lamp relays are not in the circuit during this situation,, correct?
while you are pondering the answer which i suspect will be something along the lines of ~yeah, duhh!
i will be doing your diode mod layout, i may back pedal and verify Trinoms works **without the second ground leg diode per our call today.
thanks! ~scott
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 15, 2013, 07:29:57 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 15, 2013, 07:29:57 PM
I have not seen a butterfly or cricket fuse in years. That is classic Telephone systems Right Jay
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 07:38:57 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 07:38:57 PM
Yeah that's a GMT fuse
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 07:44:30 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 07:44:30 PM
These are 70g type
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 07:54:51 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 07:54:51 PM
The relays are in the circuit, but since they're open, they are a dead end in the circuit.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 09:42:57 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 09:42:57 PM
Okay foe your diode mod works as drawn as illustrated as discussed
So apparently this is a viable option just as long as we accept the fact that if the relays were ever to fail then there would never be any headlamps ever
So apparently this is a viable option just as long as we accept the fact that if the relays were ever to fail then there would never be any headlamps ever
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 09:51:28 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 09:51:28 PM
Time for new heat readings from the headlight switch. And maybe pics if you took any.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 10:13:49 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 15, 2013, 10:13:49 PM
I did not take any pictures. I did the modification in a temporary manner such that no wires were cut anywhere so that I could have a safe back out without the effect of the diodes
The heat dissipation on the headlamp switch was very low and the little itty-bitty tiny exposed spiral wire that you can see on the switch barely got warm
In effect it all works fine
The heat dissipation on the headlamp switch was very low and the little itty-bitty tiny exposed spiral wire that you can see on the switch barely got warm
In effect it all works fine
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 10:52:21 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 10:52:21 PM
Well, thanks for verifying, anyway.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 11:08:45 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 15, 2013, 11:08:45 PM
I'll put up some pics when I do it; maybe tomorrow. I've got some mini-fuse style PCM power diodes that I've salvaged from junction boxes that have gotten sped out, I'll get them together with some inline mini-fuse holders. I'll pull the pins from the headlight switch, heatshrink them and use some terminated leads in the switch connector to attach the jumpers to.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 09:12:27 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 09:12:27 AM
one thing we failed to do which i caught a couple days ago and forgot to mention.
Foe~can you verify this and i promise it will only take approx 3 to 5 min of your time.......
we forgot to discuss what relays associated with exterior lamps energize when using the manual lamps switch. This should be a false statement but it is true~~~~!!
This ties into my post 72 oddly worded thought / queston which you (foe) responded to in post 76.
here is what i noticed and i it may come as a surprise.........
with auto lamps off......... (auto lamps are two green relays if ford was consistent from 87>88 years)
when using the manual light switch going from off to middle position, i hear a relay
when i continue headlamps i hear another relay click.
...upon closer look, i find that while using the manual headlamp switch, one of the auto lamps is picked to provide exterior lighting.
...I believe that auto lamp relay 2 is picked to provide headlamps.~~!! (i am 90% sure on this but if not then its picking auto lamp relay 1
...if i am incorrect, then its a wording error due to memory but *I DO KNOW* that one of the auto lamp relays is being picked when in manual lamp mode and auto lamp off !
...I dont see documentation supporting this but its true on my car.
instructions for verification
-scoot drivers seat back
-behind the heater controls / radio on drivers side, there is a mounting system of relays.
-locate the two green relays.
-the one with double blacks is auto lamp relay 1, a single black is auto lamp relay 2
pls confirm which one is in play during manual mode.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
after some long staring at the diode mod, i am having a difficult time trying to find anything about it from power to ground that would be a disadvantage even worth having a discussion about.
the requirements were:
-must reduce / remove heat from the headlamps switch~pass
-must operate such that the user of the car does not see a difference in functionality of the infrustructure making lamps possible~pass
-use one or two relays to achieve the above "if" the car does not have auto lamps ~pass
-make sure that manual lamp selectoin offered separate relay controls for exterior marker and headlamps ~pass
Common points of failure comparrison
-both systems manual or auto lamp share a common fuse for headlamp lighting ~ pass=fuse 4 blows then you have headlamps only
-with the diode mod, both manual switch or auto lamp systems share common relays ~ pass= based soley on past trends of relay performance reliability
-infrustructure wiring ~ pass=all wiring remains in place as designed as engineered just a long as mods are using relay trigger wire and fuses as applicable.
-Simplicity of mod using diodes~ pass= takes less time to diode mod than to relay mod in my opinion, less wiring to manage.
Failsafe headlamp engineered into the design
-with the diode mod failsafe headlamp illumination is still maintained, if fuse 4 blows, it only powers park lamp features anyway~pass
-with diode mod, if relays fail then there are no headlamps~wtg on a test to confirm something
I honestly can see on thing wrong with this diode mod and i have tried and tried to do so in good stewardship of making sure the application is applicable. While we wait on on final verificaton mentioned above, its my belief that nothing is sacraficed by doing this mod.
Foe~can you verify this and i promise it will only take approx 3 to 5 min of your time.......
we forgot to discuss what relays associated with exterior lamps energize when using the manual lamps switch. This should be a false statement but it is true~~~~!!
This ties into my post 72 oddly worded thought / queston which you (foe) responded to in post 76.
here is what i noticed and i it may come as a surprise.........
with auto lamps off......... (auto lamps are two green relays if ford was consistent from 87>88 years)
when using the manual light switch going from off to middle position, i hear a relay
when i continue headlamps i hear another relay click.
...upon closer look, i find that while using the manual headlamp switch, one of the auto lamps is picked to provide exterior lighting.
...I believe that auto lamp relay 2 is picked to provide headlamps.~~!! (i am 90% sure on this but if not then its picking auto lamp relay 1
...if i am incorrect, then its a wording error due to memory but *I DO KNOW* that one of the auto lamp relays is being picked when in manual lamp mode and auto lamp off !
...I dont see documentation supporting this but its true on my car.
instructions for verification
-scoot drivers seat back
-behind the heater controls / radio on drivers side, there is a mounting system of relays.
-locate the two green relays.
-the one with double blacks is auto lamp relay 1, a single black is auto lamp relay 2
pls confirm which one is in play during manual mode.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
after some long staring at the diode mod, i am having a difficult time trying to find anything about it from power to ground that would be a disadvantage even worth having a discussion about.
the requirements were:
-must reduce / remove heat from the headlamps switch~pass
-must operate such that the user of the car does not see a difference in functionality of the infrustructure making lamps possible~pass
-use one or two relays to achieve the above "if" the car does not have auto lamps ~pass
-make sure that manual lamp selectoin offered separate relay controls for exterior marker and headlamps ~pass
Common points of failure comparrison
-both systems manual or auto lamp share a common fuse for headlamp lighting ~ pass=fuse 4 blows then you have headlamps only
-with the diode mod, both manual switch or auto lamp systems share common relays ~ pass= based soley on past trends of relay performance reliability
-infrustructure wiring ~ pass=all wiring remains in place as designed as engineered just a long as mods are using relay trigger wire and fuses as applicable.
-Simplicity of mod using diodes~ pass= takes less time to diode mod than to relay mod in my opinion, less wiring to manage.
Failsafe headlamp engineered into the design
-with the diode mod failsafe headlamp illumination is still maintained, if fuse 4 blows, it only powers park lamp features anyway~pass
-with diode mod, if relays fail then there are no headlamps~wtg on a test to confirm something
I honestly can see on thing wrong with this diode mod and i have tried and tried to do so in good stewardship of making sure the application is applicable. While we wait on on final verificaton mentioned above, its my belief that nothing is sacraficed by doing this mod.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 10:05:32 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 10:05:32 AM
What you are observing seems like what should be happening. In manual park lamps, relay 2 should be picked, when moving onto manual headlamps relay 1 should pick. Should the fuse to the headlamp switch blow, manual headlamps and autolamps should still work with headlamps only (no parking lamps) because relay 1 gets it's power BEFORE fuse 4 and so does the headlights gate in the switch. The rest of the headlamp switch and relay 2 get power after fuse 4 and the amplifier gets it's power from another fuse. If you check the diagram carefully, power from before 4 goes into the switch, through a circuit breaker, then to the manual headlight gate and back out to power relay 1's high current side. You can verify this simply by attempting to operate the system with fuse 4 pulled. I am satisfied with the redundancy that provides, as it's exactly how current build Fords operate.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 10:27:25 AM
are you confirming post 76 is no longer valid.
i am saying while in manual mode, only one of the auto lamp relays are picked. without verifing first its something of a minor open issue
remember,, take out all things modification,, no diode mod ect,, "think" original wiring
i am saying while in manual mode, only one of the auto lamp relays are picked. without verifing first its something of a minor open issue
remember,, take out all things modification,, no diode mod ect,, "think" original wiring
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 11:00:26 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 11:00:26 AM
If the mod is out, and the wiring is back to stock, the relays shouldn't be on with manual headlamps on and auto turned off.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 11:05:17 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 11:05:17 AM
Getting the mod ready for my car.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 11:12:55 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 11:12:55 AM
I thought of something, the autolamp relays are almost certainly a standard relay socket, with only a 4 pin relay, but probably an empty 5th cavity. If I added the 5th terminal and swapped in a 5 pin relay, I could rearrange the k1 relay to allow de-energized pass-thru to the headlamps, such that if the relay failed, power to the headlamps would default to flow through the switch. This could be done with k2 as well.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 12:21:05 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;407162
If the mod is out, and the wiring is back to stock, the relays shouldn't be on with manual headlamps on and auto turned off.
pls confirm,,, I agree with "what we see on paper" but its seeming to be a **FALSE** statement based per my test.
regardless of your findings, its important we "know" what is happening completely as compared to the schematics.
I suspect you will be surprised to find you have an auto lamp relay energizing when auto lamps is not on,,, i await your physical confirmation as i know you will also find this possibly useful or perhaps just note worthy.
I agree with the 5pin relay to supplement fail safe but the guage wire needs mentioned as a mandatory minimum requirement...no biggie.
I almost put a comment in my last post about this 5pin relay concept but thougth it was not really needed and thats why i had the comment of "based on past relay performance".
It is interesting to revisit my question and perhaps more senior / experience folks can answer,,,
"what part of a relay most commonly fails", "is it the contact side or the coil side" based on past trends of known failed relays........
Tom R????????????????????????
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: Trinom on January 16, 2013, 12:24:23 PM
Post by: Trinom on January 16, 2013, 12:24:23 PM
Jay, I really don't see any problem with my mod. There might be a conflict with your setup, which doesn't correspond with EVTM, but I really don't remember your each mod.
Can you explain me, what's wrong on my mod?
Can you explain me, what's wrong on my mod?
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 12:29:18 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 12:29:18 PM
by the way,, i did not use your current limiting resistor, i fused it though and all worked well so not sure if the clr is electrically beneficial even in the case of a shorted diode. Even a fuse may not be worth the bother because it likely would not blow quickly enough to save Q2 on the amplifier.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 12:35:42 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 12:35:42 PM
Quote from: Trinom;407167
Jay, I really don't see any problem with my mod. There might be a conflict with your setup, which doesn't correspond with EVTM, but I really don't remember your each mod.
Can you explain me, what's wrong on my mod?
I can keep this simple.
scroll back and you will see where i addressed and installed and showed pics of your mod in work.
When your mod is installed, with headlamp switch off, with auto lamp thumb wheel off, as soon as i turn the ignition switch forward, the headlamps come on.
I have defered to Foe about my findings on a situation.
When i have auto lamps off and i manually select headlamps, one of the auto lamp relays energize. This qualifies as a "false" statement when we look at the wiring diagram and therefore it is where i belive the conflict may exist.
You can closely inspect my "trinom" mod and see how i performed it. The picture was taken such that you can see the jumpers i installed and where along with the diodes.
Again, your mod was installed with no other mods installed as a stand alone first time modification.
its my belief that this as something to do with ford Dead Ending a red / yellow conductor at the connector above the fuse box which is the reason for page 1, post 1 !! and following discussion on this specific wire's purpose.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: Trinom on January 16, 2013, 12:54:46 PM
Post by: Trinom on January 16, 2013, 12:54:46 PM
You didn't get it. The inline diode is protecting the circuit against reverse current going from your headlamp switch. The diode between rellay anode and cathode is protecting the circuit against the relay power off peaks.
(http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31325&stc=1&d=1358204205)
If you look at the others circuit diagrams on previous pages, all of them have the first diode in the same way as I have.
PS: I hope you connected them the right way
(http://img.wonderhowto.com/img/13/30/63471303209842/0/diy-solar-power-make-your-own-diode-based-solar-panels-and-capture-suns-energy.w654.jpg)
(http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31325&stc=1&d=1358204205)
If you look at the others circuit diagrams on previous pages, all of them have the first diode in the same way as I have.
PS: I hope you connected them the right way
(http://img.wonderhowto.com/img/13/30/63471303209842/0/diy-solar-power-make-your-own-diode-based-solar-panels-and-capture-suns-energy.w654.jpg)
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 01:00:07 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 01:00:07 PM
But the problem is that it doesn't NEED protection from relay power off peaks. The car lived without it this long and it wasn't until modification that the module ever received ANY kind of damage. The damage it DID receive could have been prevented by the inline diode in the relay command circuit alone. the second diode crossing over from the adjacent circuit is superfluous. I do see how it's supposed to work, however I also see how it always worked without it.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: Trinom on January 16, 2013, 01:08:33 PM
Post by: Trinom on January 16, 2013, 01:08:33 PM
I don't see this diode superfluous at all. I really like idiot proof circuit designs, because it may save your ass in case you do something stupid. I don't know the ford relay design, but some rellays have this diode built in. Then you don't need it.
The first diode is a must for your mods.
The first diode is a must for your mods.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 01:15:37 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 01:15:37 PM
J, your clicking relay is the managed/un-managed illumination relay for your digital speedo. It's in the same mounting cluster. I suspected, and then verified by way of my Mac test light. all the other relays in the area per your test specifications are not being actuated. The relay is at rest in the 100% power position, and when the headlamp switch is changed at all, the relay actuates to power the speedo illumination with power from the panel dimmer instead.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 01:20:11 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 01:20:11 PM
Quote from: Trinom;407174
I don't see this diode superfluous at all. I really like idiot proof circuit designs, because it may save your ass in case you do something stupid. I don't know the ford relay design, but some rellays have this diode built in. Then you don't need it.
The first diode is a must for your mods.
The ford relays include a resistor. I can give a pic if you like. The exception is the dimmer relay (hi-lo) which has a diode as illustrated in the diagram. But yes, the inline diode is the key to the module's survival, and the current iteration of the mod includes it.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 01:25:31 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 01:25:31 PM
ok foe, i will back out of your mod and into the oem layout then re-confirm.
i understand the instrumentation relay coming on ,, its the second click that concerns me, i have all my relays hanging like grapes, not mounted, i will re-confirm but i know im not going crazy here,, lets hope im wrong.
lets not rule out what softtouch said on page 1 either in that I may have a wiring problem from the previous owner.
i understand the instrumentation relay coming on ,, its the second click that concerns me, i have all my relays hanging like grapes, not mounted, i will re-confirm but i know im not going crazy here,, lets hope im wrong.
lets not rule out what softtouch said on page 1 either in that I may have a wiring problem from the previous owner.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 01:26:31 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 01:26:31 PM
your mod trinom made the isolation of the amplifier more protected than expected and thats always a good thing.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 01:30:27 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: Trinom;407172
You didn't get it.
pls roll back to page 7, post 65 to view the pictures so you can see how i performed your mod, i thank you again, pls advise if any questions, i installed as drawn.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: Trinom on January 16, 2013, 02:21:22 PM
Post by: Trinom on January 16, 2013, 02:21:22 PM
Oh, I forgot that the violet/orange wire isn't permanent ground, but it's switched. If you attach anode of that diode to pemanent ground (black wire of the rellay for example) it must work fine. Please try it.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 04:30:05 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 04:30:05 PM
I can now backup J's results, Foe'sMod works. I'll get pics up later when I settle in at home for the night.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 07:52:56 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 07:52:56 PM
The first pic is the terminated leads I used to pin into the switch, I had them left over from an ignition switch kit. The second is 13 and 15 pulled from the switch. The solder is where my remote start feeds the park lamps, I was going to put that elsewhere, but I realized it's already slaved in it's own module, so I recovered it and left it where it was. The third is the heatshrink seal tubing I used to protect the terminals. I was going to use waxed heatshrink tubing, but I decided that would be too hard to reverse later if there were problems.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 16, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
First pic is the new pins in the connector, they literally are the same as the ignition switch. (J, as a note to you, these types of connector you don't pry the tab up and pull, you push it DOWN and pull, try it and you'll see what I mean) Second pic is the diode holders and jumpers in place by the relays, the inline holders and the mini fuse style diodes really are a neat serviceable package. Last is Foe'sMod diagrammed as I installed it. If you didn't know better you'd never guess that anything had been changed by the way it operates. Fully slaved, minimal added parts. As a side note, when in manual on mode, my headlights are somewhat brighter like they always were before on autolamps. Bonus!
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 10:53:36 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 10:53:36 PM
Quote from: Trinom;407183
Oh, I forgot that the violet/orange wire isn't permanent ground, but it's switched. If you attach anode of that diode to pemanent ground (black wire of the rellay for example) it must work fine. Please try it.
tried it
results as you described with the second diode anonde connected to auto lamp 2 ground.
test results are different now.
-with auto lamp off , KOER, with main headlamp switch off i have no exterior lamps illuminated.~pass
-when i go to the manual lamp switch and select the middle position picking exterior marker lamps, i get marker lamps and headlamps. ~fail
just an update so you know, im pretty sure you are as interested as i am as to why, have not had time to investigate the "why" part.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 11:29:47 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 11:29:47 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;407175
J, your clicking relay is the managed/un-managed illumination relay for your digital speedo. It's in the same mounting cluster. I suspected, and then verified by way of my Mac test light. all the other relays in the area per your test specifications are not being actuated. The relay is at rest in the 100% power position, and when the headlamp switch is changed at all, the relay actuates to power the speedo illumination with power from the panel dimmer instead.
ok, here goes,, calling you out man (in a friendly manner pls understand)
I have made the claim that one of the auto lamp relays is energized when in manual headlamp switch mode even when the auto lamp system is off.
You have made the verified check to indicate that i am not correct so i re-tested and here are my results and proof that you may want to double check.
Again, this isnt my dick is longer than yours or anything..... its a prudent observation and in good stewardship of knowing as much as we can know about something "before we do it".
ok here goes
per below with auto lamps off and the main headlamp switch flipped to "marker lamps", power appears on relay 2 brown wire due to back feed.
~per my recolection and my re-test just now the results were the same.
Per below with auto lamps off and main headlamp switch is moved up to headlamps, backfeed power appears on the coil input of relay2 and it energizes "click".
~per my recolectoin and my re-test just now the results were the same.
~~~with a common ground to both relays k1 and k2, both relays are subject to a back feed from the activities taking place on the manual lamp switch!!!!!
~~~this may have something to do with trinoms mod not working, it also **MUST have something to do with the dead end red/yellow i find per post 1 page 1 which deserves some understanding as to why.
so,, i have to ask you if you can check your system again because it is only prudent you be completely and acutely aware of how your doing this mod.
You stated you tested all these relays and while your auto lamps are off and you are using just the main light switch, neither auto lamp energizes.. you may have a wiring problem or were looking at this the wrong way,,dono,, pls confirm again.
Can you please undo your work and revert back to oem wiring to confirm, im sure you designed your layout to be seamlessly backed out of,,, or after glancing at the pics,, did you hard solder things in a way that makes that not an option? I think you would extract your diodes from the sockets and install a paper clip temporary for now.
where do i buy some of those inline diodes>?
If ford were to rethink this, they may put a blocking diode to prevent this issue as i see it is an engineering error. this diode would be between k1 load and dimmer relay conductor.
speak up man,, its impossible for you to **not** have power on K2 with *auto lamps off and your K2 should also energize like mine.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 11:42:51 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 16, 2013, 11:42:51 PM
lets do 5pin relays,, then it would be absolutly unquestionably perfect in every way!!!
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 06:14:45 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 06:14:45 AM
The mod on my car can't be easily backed out of so I'm going to leave it. I see what you're talking about now, but I don't see it causing any kind of problem. The reason it didn't stand out with my light is that by the time the manual headlamps were on, the manual park lamps were also on and I wasn't testing K2 anymore. I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to explain. Regardless, after the mod this backfeed can not be created.
For the 5 pin relays, I wasn't wrong about the design, but I was wrong about what is already there, they're not standard sockets. We'd have to lop off the whole connector and add standard Bosch type sockets and relays. Not that hard to do, but it's more work. I've got relays and relay holders ready to go as soon as ambition shows up to the party.
For the 5 pin relays, I wasn't wrong about the design, but I was wrong about what is already there, they're not standard sockets. We'd have to lop off the whole connector and add standard Bosch type sockets and relays. Not that hard to do, but it's more work. I've got relays and relay holders ready to go as soon as ambition shows up to the party.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 06:54:19 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 06:54:19 AM
I forget specifically where the diodes came from, except that it would have been the underhood fuse box of a newer Ford. I'll keep my eyes open next few days for a vehicle that uses them. Older ones are bigger and have one of the terminals rotated 90 degrees.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 07:47:28 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 07:47:28 AM
First car I looked in this morning was an 06 Five Hundred, and it has the diodes I used.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 10:02:00 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 10:02:00 AM
agreed , after the diode mod, its moot.
I am going to move forward again into your mod and post a few pics.
before you untangled the drawing and redrew it, the back feed i was seeing was one of the many things i wanted to discuss but i think at this point its all in the open now, we've got a good handle on it. i have to wonder though that on a car without mods, is the path of power going two parallel paths adding more resistance to the circuit before it hits the headlamps,, i think yes.
your design is as i see it consisting of just the inline diodes so removing the diode(s), replacing with a jumper wire and plugging back in the oem red/yellows & browns would put you back into original condition.
i looked over your pics,,,NICE WORK!
Trinom,==
i wam holding out just a tad longer because i have a feeling (just a gut feeling) that perhaps the diodes can be placed up at the amplifier instead.
Due to the back feed illustration i show above "when there is no mod and under normal cirspoogestances" , this would lend heavily to re-thinking how to place the second diode.
I am going to dig in a little more to understand "why exactly" one diode "does not work when it is placed on the relay output of the amplifier. This is bugging me, probably more than you...LOL.
I am going to move forward again into your mod and post a few pics.
before you untangled the drawing and redrew it, the back feed i was seeing was one of the many things i wanted to discuss but i think at this point its all in the open now, we've got a good handle on it. i have to wonder though that on a car without mods, is the path of power going two parallel paths adding more resistance to the circuit before it hits the headlamps,, i think yes.
your design is as i see it consisting of just the inline diodes so removing the diode(s), replacing with a jumper wire and plugging back in the oem red/yellows & browns would put you back into original condition.
i looked over your pics,,,NICE WORK!
Trinom,==
i wam holding out just a tad longer because i have a feeling (just a gut feeling) that perhaps the diodes can be placed up at the amplifier instead.
Due to the back feed illustration i show above "when there is no mod and under normal cirspoogestances" , this would lend heavily to re-thinking how to place the second diode.
I am going to dig in a little more to understand "why exactly" one diode "does not work when it is placed on the relay output of the amplifier. This is bugging me, probably more than you...LOL.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 10:18:43 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 10:18:43 AM
@J, once you've completed and verified the mod in a permanent type installation, I say we move the mod into the "Electrical Chatter" section where I understand electrical mods belong. There seems to be a little less movement there, which makes me think that it wouldn't get pushed down out of site quickly like it will in general electrical.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 10:18:52 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 10:18:52 AM
remaining open issue,,,,,,
is it still "TRUE" that if the first relay were to fail, you would not have any fail safe headlamps to get you home? I think this is true and a 5pin relay on k1 is prudent.... k1 would have to be a parallel hot in accy feeding pin 30 and a strap on the red/yellow from 87 and 87A. A 5pin relay would insure headlamp power "if" the coil failed.
If the contacts failed, on the NO side, you "might" still have headlamp capabilty from pins 30 to 87a.
right now you dont have headlamps at all if there is a malfunction with the relay,, this again is a risk to manage and / or accept.
As with anything, we cant plan for redunduncy based on every imaginable situation but the original intent of the headlamp primary input to the main light switch was to further insure that even if the fuse blew, the way the layout is, you would at a min have headlamps if there were a fault and even this is not a 100% assurance since headlamp power is sourced via a fuse link.
your thoughts, doing this would put us back to a transparent oem design not even noticed by the user.
is it still "TRUE" that if the first relay were to fail, you would not have any fail safe headlamps to get you home? I think this is true and a 5pin relay on k1 is prudent.... k1 would have to be a parallel hot in accy feeding pin 30 and a strap on the red/yellow from 87 and 87A. A 5pin relay would insure headlamp power "if" the coil failed.
If the contacts failed, on the NO side, you "might" still have headlamp capabilty from pins 30 to 87a.
right now you dont have headlamps at all if there is a malfunction with the relay,, this again is a risk to manage and / or accept.
As with anything, we cant plan for redunduncy based on every imaginable situation but the original intent of the headlamp primary input to the main light switch was to further insure that even if the fuse blew, the way the layout is, you would at a min have headlamps if there were a fault and even this is not a 100% assurance since headlamp power is sourced via a fuse link.
your thoughts, doing this would put us back to a transparent oem design not even noticed by the user.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 10:30:03 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 10:30:03 AM
In the 5-pin redundancy config, pin 30 is the relay high output, 87a and 86 are hot from the switch while 87 is hot at all times and 85 is ground. The relay becomes multi-source and Foe'sMod (We need a better name, it's been a collaborative effort and Foe'sMod seems somewhat self-serving) would exist alongside a stock style redundancy. Diagram at post 87 (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?35111-Hi-beam-and-Lo-beam-question&p=407164#post407164")
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 10:42:43 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 10:42:43 AM
@Trinom, I'd like to add your Autolamp Amplifier diagram to my Interactive EVTM, If you're cool with that post up a diagram that's all 1 image in high res so I can edit the .pdf and update the virtual book. Thanks for mapping that out, by the way. I really feel it can be very useful to just about everybody. Props.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 01:04:46 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 01:04:46 PM
Not speaking for trinom, but the diagram is not ,, repeat,, is not representing exactly what is on the card,, so it will not be "technically" useful unless the whole card is drawn as engineered as installed component for component. the drawing is by way of a simulator to mimic the circuit only as he has indicted a few times.
You can call the diode mod what you want but im calling by your name, at the end of the day, you caused it to happen... so you own it,, : )
besides, two years from now someones gonna have a question and putting inteligence into its "source" will point to the right person.
and,,,, at the end of the day my relay mod **is** over engineered as a result of your persistance and insistance !
I think now i have 4 spare relays...LOL.
You can call the diode mod what you want but im calling by your name, at the end of the day, you caused it to happen... so you own it,, : )
besides, two years from now someones gonna have a question and putting inteligence into its "source" will point to the right person.
and,,,, at the end of the day my relay mod **is** over engineered as a result of your persistance and insistance !
I think now i have 4 spare relays...LOL.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 01:09:17 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;407262
In the 5-pin redundancy config, pin 30 is the relay high output, 87a and 86 are hot from the switch while 87 is hot at all times and 85 is ground. The relay becomes multi-source and Foe'sMod (We need a better name, it's been a collaborative effort and Foe'sMod seems somewhat self-serving) would exist alongside a stock style redundancy. Diagram at post 87 (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?35111-Hi-beam-and-Lo-beam-question&p=407164#post407164")
I would not recommend a 5pin relay on on k2 and here is why..........
You only want the 5pin relay on k1,,, this way when the user gets headlamps only,,,,,,, it indicates there is an electrical issue and would prompt you do something.
putting dual 5pin relays for k1&2 will make the relay failure invisible to the user... savvy?
this would also be in line with the original oem design application.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 01:39:18 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;407259
@J, once you've completed and verified the mod in a permanent type installation, I say we move the mod into the "Electrical Chatter" section where I understand electrical mods belong. There seems to be a little less movement there, which makes me think that it wouldn't get pushed down out of site quickly like it will in general electrical.
oooh,, i didnt see this,,,
well this thread started out as an electrical tech question and never got resolution.. i didnt convert it to a mod thread.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 01:52:43 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 17, 2013, 01:52:43 PM
jezz, i keep posting random here............
im concerned again with someting.
Your 1988 evtm shows the auto lamp selector switch to share the same ground with the relays.
My 1987 evtm shows the auto lamp selector switch and relays to have dedicated home run gounds.
I have to wonder what adverse effect this "could" have with respect to considering the "diode mode" cookie cutter to all users having auto lamps?????
Also, how does this effect Trinoms mod?
your 88 EVTM auto lamp show up as pg163>>>>>>>>.see here pg11, post 103
My 87 EVTM auto lamp shows up as pg 81>>>>>>>>>see here pg 11 post 105
im concerned again with someting.
Your 1988 evtm shows the auto lamp selector switch to share the same ground with the relays.
My 1987 evtm shows the auto lamp selector switch and relays to have dedicated home run gounds.
I have to wonder what adverse effect this "could" have with respect to considering the "diode mode" cookie cutter to all users having auto lamps?????
Also, how does this effect Trinoms mod?
your 88 EVTM auto lamp show up as pg163>>>>>>>>.see here pg11, post 103
My 87 EVTM auto lamp shows up as pg 81>>>>>>>>>see here pg 11 post 105
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 03:03:10 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 17, 2013, 03:03:10 PM
Quote from: jcassity;407267
I would not recommend a 5pin relay on on k2 and here is why..........
You only want the 5pin relay on k1,,, this way when the user gets headlamps only,,,,,,, it indicates there is an electrical issue and would prompt you do something.
putting dual 5pin relays for k1&2 will make the relay failure invisible to the user... savvy?
this would also be in line with the original oem design application.
That's a good idea, I like it. That's how I'll do it when I get there.
Quote from: jcassity;407270
jezz, i keep posting random here............
im concerned again with someting.
Your 1988 evtm shows the auto lamp selector switch to share the same ground with the relays.
My 1987 evtm shows the auto lamp selector switch and relays to have dedicated home run gounds.
I have to wonder what adverse effect this "could" have with respect to considering the "diode mode" cookie cutter to all users having auto lamps?????
Also, how does this effect Trinoms mod?
your 88 EVTM auto lamp show up as pg163>>>>>>>>.see here pg11, post 103
My 87 EVTM auto lamp shows up as pg 81>>>>>>>>>see here pg 11 post 105
I don't see that posing any kind of problem. It's all the same ground plane. I doesn't matter if they're grounded together or separately as long as the grounds are clean, it's all ground.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 18, 2013, 04:08:39 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 18, 2013, 04:08:39 AM
final as-built
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 20, 2013, 12:34:53 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 20, 2013, 12:34:53 PM
one last discussion on this "diode" mod while it is installed.
i have a symptom im wanting to cure.
while in manual lamp mode, my interior instrument cluster lighting is "X" value brightness and the thumbwheel is set to maximum.
with manual light switch off and i am in auto lamp mode, the instrument cluster illumination is darker
??????????
this is with KOEO though, have not confirmed wtih KOER but either way it should still be the same condition
i have a symptom im wanting to cure.
while in manual lamp mode, my interior instrument cluster lighting is "X" value brightness and the thumbwheel is set to maximum.
with manual light switch off and i am in auto lamp mode, the instrument cluster illumination is darker
??????????
this is with KOEO though, have not confirmed wtih KOER but either way it should still be the same condition
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 20, 2013, 12:57:27 PM
Post by: jcassity on January 20, 2013, 12:57:27 PM
Also,
Foe~ are you running your "auto lamp dimmer relay" such that when hi beams are picked, the low beams remain on **while having the diode mod in the circuit?
Foe~ are you running your "auto lamp dimmer relay" such that when hi beams are picked, the low beams remain on **while having the diode mod in the circuit?
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 20, 2013, 07:51:33 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 20, 2013, 07:51:33 PM
Yes, I am. I have to, because I run projectors which only have 1 light source, and rely on a shutter for high beams. If the shutter activated, but the lows shut off, I wouldn't have anything.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 21, 2013, 12:13:37 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 21, 2013, 12:13:37 AM
i just did the "low beam on" while in high beam mod,, works perfect.
i noticed that if i do the "flash to pass" there is a tad difference so its my belief that the flash to pass works "well enough" even in this mode.
In low beam mode, it works perfectly.
i noticed that if i do the "flash to pass" there is a tad difference so its my belief that the flash to pass works "well enough" even in this mode.
In low beam mode, it works perfectly.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 25, 2013, 09:38:36 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 25, 2013, 09:38:36 PM
I've noticed similar behavior with my IP lights, seems intermittent. It's only a minor thing to me, but still, I'm curious.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 26, 2013, 01:34:26 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 26, 2013, 01:34:26 AM
you mean your IP lighting is slightly darker while in auto lamp mode as compared to the ip illumination being brighter while in manual headlamp mode?
my thoughts????????
its my belief that the "path of least resistance" is *not* through the relay infrustructure wiring as we have them slaved.
i had the same symptom even before this mod , you prob did to and did not notice ,, so the problem was there even before.
I will bet if we dig we will find the power source for the ip relay is a parallel branch off the headlamp source or fuse link... yep im pointing to a fuse link as the bottle kneck,, just a guess for the moment.
the right thing to do is measure the voltage at the input / output of the high current contacts on the realy to see if there is a possible and common probable fault for everyone to eventually have high corrosion or high reisistance on this relay "while in the auto headlamps on" mode, and,,,, get actual voltage drop readings from source as compared to what appears up at the ip connector.
at this moment, to me, that really just sounds like something id rather not dig into at the moment. the 20th is out of the garage and the Ghia is in for a sound system, next up is my bronco.
on my to do list is elimination fo the fuse links in trade for cb fuse bank.
my thoughts????????
its my belief that the "path of least resistance" is *not* through the relay infrustructure wiring as we have them slaved.
i had the same symptom even before this mod , you prob did to and did not notice ,, so the problem was there even before.
I will bet if we dig we will find the power source for the ip relay is a parallel branch off the headlamp source or fuse link... yep im pointing to a fuse link as the bottle kneck,, just a guess for the moment.
the right thing to do is measure the voltage at the input / output of the high current contacts on the realy to see if there is a possible and common probable fault for everyone to eventually have high corrosion or high reisistance on this relay "while in the auto headlamps on" mode, and,,,, get actual voltage drop readings from source as compared to what appears up at the ip connector.
at this moment, to me, that really just sounds like something id rather not dig into at the moment. the 20th is out of the garage and the Ghia is in for a sound system, next up is my bronco.
on my to do list is elimination fo the fuse links in trade for cb fuse bank.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 26, 2013, 06:43:52 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 26, 2013, 06:43:52 AM
Possibly, however, at times it seems like with manual lights on, I have unmanaged illumination, meaning 100%. It hasn't done it in days, and at this point I'm not sure anymore that it did it at all. It's just odd.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 26, 2013, 09:32:19 AM
Post by: softtouch on January 26, 2013, 09:32:19 AM
In auto mode:
The mod has shifted the IP lights load from the output of auto relay #2 to the output of auto relay #1 through a diode.
Stock auto IP circuit; fuse #4, auto relay #2, HL switch(parking light output terminal) dimmer rheostat, fuse #13, IP lights.
Modded auto IP circuit; HL switch circuit breaker, auto relay #1, diode, HL switch dimmer rheostat, fuse #13, IP lights.
Questions:
Is this too much load for the diode?
Is it too much load for auto relay #1 with IP and both Hi and Lo HL on together?
The mod has shifted the IP lights load from the output of auto relay #2 to the output of auto relay #1 through a diode.
Stock auto IP circuit; fuse #4, auto relay #2, HL switch(parking light output terminal) dimmer rheostat, fuse #13, IP lights.
Modded auto IP circuit; HL switch circuit breaker, auto relay #1, diode, HL switch dimmer rheostat, fuse #13, IP lights.
Questions:
Is this too much load for the diode?
Is it too much load for auto relay #1 with IP and both Hi and Lo HL on together?
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 26, 2013, 10:57:15 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 26, 2013, 10:57:15 AM
im 99% sure the symptom was there without mods.
the diodes are placed in series with the relay coils only.
the diodes are placed in series with the relay coils only.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 26, 2013, 11:18:07 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 26, 2013, 11:18:07 AM
well, the relay 2 diode is also inline with the IP lights feed.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on January 26, 2013, 11:36:06 AM
Post by: jcassity on January 26, 2013, 11:36:06 AM
im not seeing it,,,, both drawings achieve the same electrical concept.
both diodes are in series with the relay coils only.
the IP lighting is a home run "around" the main headlamp switch and through the high current contacts of k2. We only diode or'd the trigger part of the two relays to prevent backfeed to q2 output of the amplifier.
both diodes are in series with the relay coils only.
the IP lighting is a home run "around" the main headlamp switch and through the high current contacts of k2. We only diode or'd the trigger part of the two relays to prevent backfeed to q2 output of the amplifier.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 26, 2013, 01:19:26 PM
Post by: softtouch on January 26, 2013, 01:19:26 PM
Re-read post 128.
That circuit #14 BR wire, instrument illumination page 145 picks the cluster illumination relay.
This only controls the brightness of the LCD.
Nothing to do with IP lights.
That circuit #14 BR wire, instrument illumination page 145 picks the cluster illumination relay.
This only controls the brightness of the LCD.
Nothing to do with IP lights.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 26, 2013, 04:39:10 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 26, 2013, 04:39:10 PM
Quote from: softtouch;408055
Re-read post 128.
That circuit #14 BR wire, instrument illumination page 145 picks the cluster illumination relay.
This only controls the brightness of the LCD.
Nothing to do with IP lights.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: softtouch on January 26, 2013, 04:53:09 PM
Post by: softtouch on January 26, 2013, 04:53:09 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;408069
When I say IP lights, I'm using the wrong term, I'm referring to the digital speedo/cluster.
The LCDs are on full bright with the Headlights off.
They are controlled by the HL switch dimmer with the Headlights on.
The HL switch dimmer is powered through the HL switch in manual mode.
The HL switch dimmer is powered through relay #1 and a diode in auto mode.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on February 25, 2013, 12:49:09 AM
Post by: jcassity on February 25, 2013, 12:49:09 AM
Hey Foe,
im happy with this mode but........... there is the one open issue id like to solve... its a difference of potential problem that you may have seen as well on your mod.
with my headlamp switch on, auto lamps off.. my instrumentation illumination is very nice and evenly bright... much much brighter than it has ever been.
with my headlamp switch off, auto lamp on, my instrumentation illumination is lower and it appears some of my instrumentation is illuminated differntly, as in the speedo is a little brighter than other pieces parts of the dash.
Even though in both conditions, the auto lamp relays are still the power delivery parts to my interiorinstrumentation, i am stumped on where the problem is.
I can live with it but............ there is a slight difference in potential when i am in auto lamp mode vs manual lamp switch mode.
If i scale / grade this on best illumination on the cluster in manual mode being 100%, then when i am in auto lamp mode, the instrumentatoin is approx 90%.
thoughts?????
anyone?
it has to have something to do wtih the brown ckt while in auto lamp mode but no matter how long i stare at the diagram, nothing seems to stand out as the "differnt path".
this has nothign to do with the light sensor or timer becuase the brown interior illumination is still sourced from the same relay , same fuse, same wiring ect ect.
any ideas or thoughts on this?
im happy with this mode but........... there is the one open issue id like to solve... its a difference of potential problem that you may have seen as well on your mod.
with my headlamp switch on, auto lamps off.. my instrumentation illumination is very nice and evenly bright... much much brighter than it has ever been.
with my headlamp switch off, auto lamp on, my instrumentation illumination is lower and it appears some of my instrumentation is illuminated differntly, as in the speedo is a little brighter than other pieces parts of the dash.
Even though in both conditions, the auto lamp relays are still the power delivery parts to my interiorinstrumentation, i am stumped on where the problem is.
I can live with it but............ there is a slight difference in potential when i am in auto lamp mode vs manual lamp switch mode.
If i scale / grade this on best illumination on the cluster in manual mode being 100%, then when i am in auto lamp mode, the instrumentatoin is approx 90%.
thoughts?????
anyone?
it has to have something to do wtih the brown ckt while in auto lamp mode but no matter how long i stare at the diagram, nothing seems to stand out as the "differnt path".
this has nothign to do with the light sensor or timer becuase the brown interior illumination is still sourced from the same relay , same fuse, same wiring ect ect.
any ideas or thoughts on this?
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on February 25, 2013, 01:01:22 AM
Post by: jcassity on February 25, 2013, 01:01:22 AM
the one and only thing i can think of that is plusable is the magnetic field built by the relay coil while in "auto lamp" mode is weaker as its sourced from the light sensor, this might cause a weaker contact surface area closure or "presure" so to speak... and add increased resistance / voltage drop across the relay contacts.
????????
????????
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on February 25, 2013, 06:51:11 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on February 25, 2013, 06:51:11 AM
I've got that, too, and I think I have a simpler explanation. The K2 relay diode is cutting current down. This matters because all the current for the IP lights get pulled through that diode. It's not that noticeable for me, because I don't really ever use the manual mode. When I do, I notice it, but I attribute it to current loss through the diode. I've read elsewhere that a diode can be used as a current limiting resistor this way. Maybe a different diode. Did you use the same diodes I used? I only used the ones I used for their convenient packaging.
Anyway, that's my take on it, hope it helps.
Anyway, that's my take on it, hope it helps.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: jcassity on February 25, 2013, 08:45:05 AM
Post by: jcassity on February 25, 2013, 08:45:05 AM
there is no diode in series with the instrumentation illumination or headlamps main power feed on this mod... only on the relay coils side.
I used 1n4148 diodes which are silicone.
silicone diodes offer .6 volts drop/loss, Germainium offer .3v drop / loss
yes they can be used a clr, i do this almost on every project with respect to enviromental alarms of a facility going to something like a Quest Controls or a Falcon monitoring system.
the less expensive germainium diodes are better as a CLR because they are approx 300ohms (half of the silicone type)
"IF" while in auto lamp mode i turn the manual headlamp switch on, the instrumentation illumnation problem goes away.,, thats why im thinking the relay coils magetic field is being restricted by the light sensor and the diodes,,,,,,,,,,,,,, The only problem with this theory is that it was like this before this mod as well.
Before the mod i had the same illumination difference and ill bet you recall the same,, and,,, ill bet someone else can chime in to confirm a "non-modified" car.
I used 1n4148 diodes which are silicone.
silicone diodes offer .6 volts drop/loss, Germainium offer .3v drop / loss
yes they can be used a clr, i do this almost on every project with respect to enviromental alarms of a facility going to something like a Quest Controls or a Falcon monitoring system.
the less expensive germainium diodes are better as a CLR because they are approx 300ohms (half of the silicone type)
"IF" while in auto lamp mode i turn the manual headlamp switch on, the instrumentation illumnation problem goes away.,, thats why im thinking the relay coils magetic field is being restricted by the light sensor and the diodes,,,,,,,,,,,,,, The only problem with this theory is that it was like this before this mod as well.
Before the mod i had the same illumination difference and ill bet you recall the same,, and,,, ill bet someone else can chime in to confirm a "non-modified" car.
Title: Hi beam and Lo beam question
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on February 25, 2013, 09:49:54 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on February 25, 2013, 09:49:54 AM
You're missing it. In autolamp mode, IP lamps get their power from the same place as K2 coil. Under autolamp, IP light power is drawn through the diode K2 from relay K1. In manual mode, that backfeed is fed internally to the headlamp switch but in auto the power for it comes back through diode K2.