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Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: 86cougar on November 19, 2012, 07:38:41 PM

Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 19, 2012, 07:38:41 PM
I took the old Craftsman timing light and engine buttstuffyzer out of the shed today and found out my engine buttstuffyzer is dead, it will only tell me voltage. I started the car it idles nice and revs-up nice until it warms up. I figure I can at least get an idea where the timing is at, so I hook up the timing light and start the car get it idling what sounds like about 600 RPM give or take. I grab the old trusty timing light and it is idling at about 10 degrees after TDC (????).
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 20, 2012, 01:29:08 AM
You should free idle around 950, and between 650 and 750 in gear.  Ask me how I know, I'll tell you a long and troubling story.  If you're ATDC, you need to make about 20 degrees adjustment, factory is 10 BTDC, but all us 5.0 guys like 12 or 14 BTDC.  If you're running a MSD ignition (as in your other thread), you'll need to disable timing advance first, and I hope YOU know how to do that, because I've never worked with one.  (Remove SPOut connector plug near the distributor on your old TFI IV system). Your ear will tell you its idled too high, but you've got to go off of your loaded idle (in drive, foot on brake, 0 MPH).

DON'T TOUCH THE IDLE STOP SCREW whatever you do.  You'll screw it up and never get it exactly right again. (once again, ask me how I know)
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Haystack on November 20, 2012, 04:04:50 AM
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,1031.0.html

This is the correct base idle reset procedure. And you you can screw with the idel set screw, I have everytime.

Here is a link that shows how to reset your timing correctly.

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/help-with-timing.800259/
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 20, 2012, 05:40:12 AM
Ok not brain surgery. You can set your timing by hooking the light to #1 plug. Pull the SPOUT out and time the thing to 10-12* BTDC. Do you know how to do this and do you know how to read the DEGREES on the WHEEL and which way is late and early.  Ok if so time it and if the TFI is not somewhere near 4 o'clock. You need to index it this way. That is accomplished by removing it and move it a tooth ADVANCED According to you you are LATE!!! With that if all goes well tighten the DIZZY bolt and never do it again. I cant take the stress!!! The idle is set by disconnecting the IAC setting the MIN IDLE SCREW to 600-700 RPM then set the TPS to .6-1.0. Dont go crazy with this setting as it makes no difference whatsoever as long as it is somewhere in these parameters.. Let the car settle down drive it a bit . Recheck it once again and if it is ok the adjustments are ok. I normally recheck both voltage and idle speed with IAC disconnected twice. If it idles good and at about 750-800 RPM. Tighten the TPS and never set it again. Once again i cant take the STRESS!!

NOTE all settings are with a HOT engine

:hick::mullet::hick::mullet::evilgrin::bowdown:
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 20, 2012, 07:31:06 AM
Unless he's messed with the base idle, already, there's no need to overload him with info on the procedure to reset it.  He ear timed it according to how the idle sounded, and now it's timed like balls.  The point was for him to understand that the free idle is going to sound like it's too high, and not to base any tuning decision on that.  By his own testimony he's an EFI n00b.  By telling him more than he's asking for, you're setting him up for another nightmare thread of confusion and frustration.
86, if you haven't adjusted the idle screw, DON'T.  Just time it, drive it, double check it and drink beer.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 10:12:17 AM
Ok, I got all the information. Looks like I need to buy another buttstuffyzer, guess I'll go to Sears.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 20, 2012, 10:52:04 AM
from my diy link below, here is my step by step redition of how to check and / or reset the timing
**do not remove / replace the distributor timing shorting plug with the engine running!!!


==========================================
Distributor check and reset

remove #1 plug
insert a decent wad of tissue paper tightly in the spark plug hole
quickly bump engine over until you hear the tissue paper pop out
you are now on compression stroke for number one cyl but not tdc
looking directly at the crank pully rotate the crank CW until pointer is on tdc
as you trun your crank, use a narrow screwdriver in the plug hole and touching the piston
as you rotate the crank, the screwdriver will rise as you hold it.
you will feel a flat area where nothing happens then it changes
go back to where you were and line back up to where the piston is tdc.
if the pass valve cover is off, both #1 rockers should be kinda loose
remove dizzy cap and rotor should be pointing directly at number 1 post
if its ahead or behind, you are off and dizzy needs reset.
**if its off by like a half inch or so, then dont pull the dizzy, just adjust by advance or retarding.
The proper or typical look of a dizzy is the rotor point at number one post and the TFI pointing towards
the drivers front corner. (this is just my opinion). After the dizzy is checked, you have room to advance either
direction.

RESET
remove 1/2 bolt,keeper at the base of dizzy
remove tfi plug
the dizzy will be tight to get out at first cause of the oring at the base
be careful if you do not know whos been in your motor before.
its possible the oil pump shaft may not have the keeper on
if it does not, the oil pump shaft may fall down into the timing cover/oil pan
if this happens, your screwed. just install another pump drive shaft or tear the motor down
there is no way to tell if the little slip on keeper is installed or not.
you can only tell if the motor is opened up.
Gently rotate the dizzy back and forth while trying to lift it.
lube up the oring with grease at the base of the dizzy and the hole
when you get it out, guess / estimate your location/orientation of the rotor.
its a good idea to look at other engines as to how their dizzy sits
the orientation of the tfi is important for setting the timing later.
drop the dizzy and fully seat it.
check to see if it will be point to number 1 post
if it does, snug on the keep / bolt and use your timing light to adjust.
set timing to 10deg btdc or whatever you prefer.

**sometimes you may have to nudge the crank either cw or ccw a wee bit to get the hex shaped
oil pump shaft to mate up inside the dizzy shaft. this gets tricky and if you cant get the dizzy to seat,
you gotta keep tinkering with the crank either direction while trying to seat the dizzy.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 20, 2012, 10:55:53 AM
throttle position sensor test( this is very important,, !!!!

________________________________
tps test throttle position sensor
1 location-- vertical mounted on pass side of CFI with org/blk/grn wires.
Probe the green wire with positive lead of a meter and ground out
the black lead of your meter.

2 turn ign sw on ,, no start

3 the voltage reading on your meter should be around .5-.9 vdc.

4 operate the throttle linkage very very very slowly and note increase in voltage. Your increase should be smooth with no jumping and it should top out at around 4.6 vdc.

notes..
It is best to use an buttstuffog (needle type) meter when doing this step because it will detect flat or open spots on the variable resiseter (tps) better than the digital types.
you can bench test the tps buy hooking up to the green and black then black to org and measuring resistance and the two readings should match. The green wire is the center tap of the variable resistor. The resistance reading will be proportional to what you see in dc volts.

if you find your low end voltage is at or above one volt,, use a chainsaw file to file out the mounting holes so that you can mount and adjust the tps CCw to achieve the "less than a volt" goal.

when installing the tps,, lay it in place but slightly clockwise,, seat the tps then rotate it ccw to line up the mounting screws. There is a little pin up in the likage that will put your tps in a bind if you dont do this correctly. You cant just lay it on and bolt it down any old way.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 20, 2012, 11:12:08 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;402881
TPS to .6-1.0. Dont go crazy with this setting as it makes no difference whatsoever as long as it is somewhere in these parameters..

careful tom,, none of the newer TPS's i have see have oval mounting holes.... only seen them on the older escorts and on the turbo coupes.
you cant "set" a 5.0 tps unless you modify the mounting holes with a rat tail file.

another interesting note, you can go to the parts counter and have a dozen TPS's in front of you and all of them will act differntly.
what i do is buy the TPS that has the "highest internal resistance".  I measure from the black and yellow wire with my ohm meter, this gives me the finer adjustment when dialing in the tps to ***less than a volt dc from the green wire to the black ground or chassis ground.

86~
the hold down screws on the tps are sorta like APEX heads in design.  you may have difficulty loosening them up unless you lay down on the screw driver.  they are not your run of the mill phillups heads if you look close.  not sure why ford did this but it is what it is.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 12:04:57 PM
I'm still working on getting codes from my last thread. All I have got so far is 4 beeps in a row and then it stopped. Good news is, the car starts right up.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 01:19:20 PM
Still having no luck with codes, The idle did drop down when I disconnected the IAC valve, pulled the spout out. Tried to get the timing closer to 10 degrees before top dead center and the car would not start. Dumb question: Is there any way the harmonic dampener moved?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 20, 2012, 01:43:51 PM
Jay i am well aware of the TPS and i found that by removing the sleeve and ovaling out the sensor is best. Be careful of having a sensor with to much RESISTANCE OVERALL. It lags the response time of throttle opening and enriching up mixture. A narrow band TPS is best as i have messed with this. As the matter of fact FORD used to show 5 different TPS sensors and consolidated them to one number. Also your cruse parameters will get lean with to much of a broad resistance of the sensor. The ECM sees less throttle opening as with a low overall resistance it sees more in the mid range. We have dun dyno testing on this and found out response time is better the lower the overall resistance is. By the way the mounting screws are TRI LOBAL and PIZEO NOT PHILLIPS. I trash the screws re-tap to clean out the loctite from the factory and replace them with HEX NUT ONES. Makes setting a breeze. Sometimes i remove the sleeves to allow adjustment and a chain saw file finishes the job nicely with a camed up engine. I also just snug the lower one and use the upper to tighten it up. But as you say the factory sets it and it in fact does not have a slot. That is in my view something the owner or tuner has to decide when tuning. So 86 just clean the IAC and test it for leaks. I have yet had the privilege of testing an older IAC that was not bypassing. They also have to be tuned. If you guys like i will start a post on IAC TUNING. It just might explain some mysteries about the VALVE. Other than that disconnect the IAC and adjust MIN idle to 600-700 RPM and you are DUN!!!

This is the only way to clean an IAC. Also it is the only way to tune it properly!!!

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-58.jpg)
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 02:49:01 PM
Hey guy's, remember me?? No codes, car won't start unless at 10 degrees ATDC, and I only have a digital meter. So Tom, are you suggesting I take my IAC valve apart like in the picture and clean it? I have already taken it off and sprayed it with carb. cleaner about 3 days ago.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 20, 2012, 03:18:18 PM
Do you still have the original distributor and associated parts?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 05:19:30 PM
I kept them for about 2 months after I got the car running with the new one. I got rid of it along with springs, shocks ect..
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2012, 06:55:54 PM
The EEC IV distributor has no centrifugal or vacuum advance. Spark advance is controlled by the EEC via the SPOUT (SPark OUT) signal to the TFI (Thick Film Ignition) module. The base timing is set with the SPOUT disconnected. Base timing is 10° BTDC.

Do you know how your distributor works? Do you have a TFI or equivalent?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 07:05:27 PM
No not really. The spout it unplugged. I'm getting soot on my plugs at both TDC and at 180 degrees off. My car will only run at 10 degrees ATDC. I've spent the whole day trying to figure it out and I end up right back where I started. I disconnected the IAC valve and it slowed down but the timing was still too far off. I turned the idle down to where it would barely run and the timing was too far off. I move the distributor both ways advancing and retarding by one tooth and it would not start. The only thing left to do is check out the TFI. I don't know if I will have time tomorrow, I have to go to a wake.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Crazy88 on November 20, 2012, 07:07:01 PM
Did you change the timing set or anything of that nature when you were doing earlier upgrades?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2012, 07:16:16 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;402852
I grab the old trusty timing light and it is idling at about 10 degrees after TDC (????).

Is it possible you are misinterpreting the timing light?
If you are used to looking at engines where the timing scale is stationary it seems backward when you look at a moving scale.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 07:17:10 PM
Crazy88,
            Funny you should ask. The answer is no, but I was outside (my headache and I) and though I have never worked on a vehicle with an EEC on it, all I could think was it's acting like the timing chain has skipped a tooth, maybe two. I'm getting soot on my plug on both strokes, the rag is getting blown out on both strokes and it only runs at 10 degrees ATDC. The part that amazes me the most is it runs!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 20, 2012, 07:20:11 PM
Why in the world would the car not start with the timing set correctly???? Here we go again!!!!!

First of all why in the world would you replace a perfectly good ignition SYSTEM. That makes no sense whatsoever. You are on a learning curve for sure. But when you say it wont run when timed correctly what do you MEAN!!!! Does it not crank or crank hard. Or is it that the engine wont FIRE UP!!! You have to be more specific!!! Their is no way the engine wont start with the timing at 10* advanced. You are leaving something out. By the way what plug are you using to time this car???? just curious!!! And what DIZZY are you using and is it for an electronic application. It must be because the car runs and you need PIP for this to happen. What the HELL DO YOU MEAN BY THE SPRINGS YOU GOT RID OF ?????????? Once again i am confused and have a headache!!!

At this point dont disassemble you IAC. Doing that is not easy. It takes a lot of time and effort to do it. And if you dont have a spare dont do it. But it is the only way to clean and tune them!!! Try this with the IAC off the car try blowing through one of the hole. If you can blow through it it is SHOT or needs cleaning or tuning. But dont do this until you square your timing AWAY!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 07:36:00 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;402925
Why in the world would the car not start with the timing set correctly???? Here we go again!!!!!

First of all why in the world would you replace a perfectly good ignition SYSTEM. That makes no sense whatsoever. You are on a learning curve for sure. But when you say it wont run when timed correctly what do you MEAN!!!! Does it not crank or crank hard. Or is it that the engine wont FIRE UP!!! You have to be more specific!!! Their is no way the engine wont start with the timing at 10* advanced. You are leaving something out. By the way what plug are you using to time this car???? just curious!!! And what DIZZY are you using and is it for an electronic application. It must be because the car runs and you need PIP for this to happen. What the HELL DO YOU MEAN BY THE SPRINGS YOU GOT RID OF ?????????? Once again i am confused and have a headache!!!

At this point dont disassemble you IAC. Doing that is not easy. It takes a lot of time and effort to do it. And if you dont have a spare dont do it. But it is the only way to clean and tune them!!! Try this with the IAC off the car try blowing through one of the hole. If you can blow through it it is SHOT or needs cleaning or tuning. But dont do this until you square your timing AWAY!!!
Tom, AFTER top dead center. It will ONLY run at 10 degrees AFTER top dead center.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 08:18:38 PM
Softtouch,
              I have my timing marks painted in white. I have a feeling my timing chain jump a tooth a while back.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 20, 2012, 09:01:04 PM
Time for me to buy a new engine, or have this one rebuilt.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Haystack on November 20, 2012, 10:09:38 PM
Cougar, its a shame your in arizona. Many of the problems you've had are quite simple. A new engine isn_ going to fix anything. These old 5.0's last forever.

That sbftech link on how to properly time your 5.0 shows you step by step how to do it correctly. You have had your dizzy out, so you have no idea if its set right. Read the thread I posted for you, and come bac with any specific questions. If you follow it step by step, you can rule out timing.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 20, 2012, 10:27:00 PM
Ok check the compression and post it ???? That will tell me if you have a chain issue. By the way is your timing chain installed PROPERLY and did you mess with that also!!! Even a car with a chain set incorrectly can be brought in to time. Something is going on here that makes no SENSE. So did you mess with the chain and or replace it at some point.

ARE YOU USING THE CORRECT CYL TO TIME THIS CAR??? Tell me which cylinder you hooked the light to??? And post a photo of the DIZZY. And the timing marks???
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 20, 2012, 10:38:53 PM
Quote from: Haystack;402937
Cougar, its a shame your in arizona. Many of the problems you've had are quite simple. A new engine isn_ going to fix anything. These old 5.0's last forever.

That sbftech link on how to properly time your 5.0 shows you step by step how to do it correctly. You have had your dizzy out, so you have no idea if its set right. Read the thread I posted for you, and come bac with any specific questions. If you follow it step by step, you can rule out timing.

Well he claims he cant set it to 10* before so he has a timing issue. Clearly that is a FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless i am reading him incorrectly or he is using the wrong cylinder. Once again when the engine is running and you bring the marks in time the engine does WHAT??? Or is it you cant move the dizzy far enough to get it in TIME. I have a HEADACHE.

Check the Compression on one cylinder and post back. That will answer the question of a stretched chain or improperly installed.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 20, 2012, 10:40:43 PM
here is a way to check how much slack is in your chain

dial in the crank to zero by going in the direction the crank normally turns while running.
now,,,,,,
rotate the crank the opposite direction and upon feeling it get kinda hard, stop......, trust me you will "feel it"
This will show you how far you can turn the crank before your actually causing the came to catch up with the crank,, because they are tied together with the chain.

now look at the harmonic balancer on the crank and tell us what degrees the pointer is pointing to.

this will tell you a whole bunch about the play you suspect in the chain.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 20, 2012, 10:58:34 PM
oh yeah,,

remove plug number 1
remove dist cap
dial in the crank to zero deg TDC
look to see if the rotor is pointing to where the number 1 spark plug attaches "if" the cap were on.
If its 180deg off, rotate the crank again and redial in TDC and then you should see the rotor pointing towards #1 plug wire post "if" the cap were on.

stuff a garden hose in the spark plug hole and BLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if you can blow air through the engine,, report back.... easy test.


if your timing chain jumped a tooth, then it will show up with this test because the valves will be lagging behind the movement of the driving force of the crank shaft.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 20, 2012, 11:05:49 PM
Or just do a compression test!!! Jay lets not get technical. Chain slack is a good thing to check. I did not want to go their because he might be on OVERLAP with your test. Other than recording the stretch degrees. But a quick peak at the valves or a second rotation just might work to check cylinder sealing. Other than a leak down test the compression test will tell all.  Thanks!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 20, 2012, 11:21:11 PM
According to his other thread, he's running an MSD dizzy and a 6A spark box.  I don't know anything about that equipment, but that's what he's got.  I'm willing to bet he's got his light connected to #5
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 21, 2012, 12:51:39 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;402944
Or just do a compression test!!! Jay lets not get technical. Chain slack is a good thing to check. I did not want to go their because he might be on OVERLAP with your test. Other than recording the stretch degrees. But a quick peak at the valves or a second rotation just might work to check cylinder sealing. Other than a leak down test the compression test will tell all.  Thanks!!!


adjusted my post tom, i assumed he may not have a compression tester.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 21, 2012, 12:53:06 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;402947
According to his other thread, he's running an MSD dizzy and a 6A spark box.  I don't know anything about that equipment, but that's what he's got.  I'm willing to bet he's got his light connected to #5

yeah, at worse case he may dump "certain" codes for this non oem gear but,, i suspect hes running on the default tables in the eec, limp mode so to speak.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Chrome on November 21, 2012, 01:04:08 AM
Perhaps the outer ring of the harmonic balancer has slipped. They can. It can slip a little or a lot. They can even slip completely apart. Put something in the spark plug hole (something solid), and gently turn the engine by hand. When the engine stops, mark the spot the pointer is pointing to on the damper. Now, rotate the engine backwards until it stops. Mark this spot on the damper. The exact middle in between the two marks is 0 degrees. From there, you can use the original scale on the damper to see how far from 0 10 degrees is and mark the damper accordingly. Timing by ear can be good on a lot of engines, or even by vac. Not so with these. I have found that this will put it way to far advanced. You must get the timing right before going any further.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 21, 2012, 09:44:52 AM
Wow! Thanks for the support guy's! The cylinder I'm calling #1 is the one (facing the car) on the passenger side first cylinder. They go 1,2,3,4, then on the drivers side 5,6,7,8 moving back...correct? I will do a compression check and post my results. I need to get some rechargeable batteries for my camera and have my friend should me how to sent them to this forum. I think that will help out most! I need to get ready to go to a wake. So, I may get to this later today.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Trinom on November 21, 2012, 04:42:52 PM
Don't you have a cell phone with camera? I think that should be good enough.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 21, 2012, 07:51:19 PM
I'm back, but it's too late to do anything now, so I will try to answer some questions. First off was I using the right cylinder? The spout has been disconnected. My MSG 6a box does not have advanced timing control. When I said that I set the idle by ear, what I did was start the car, move the distributor to where it idled smooth and when I revved it up, it did good. Then I would drive it and test different positions of the distributor. When it was most powerful, I left it there. Yes Tom, I do know how to read my harmonic balancer for degrees and the TFI is pointing toward the 4 o'clock position. I still need to buy an engine buttstuffyzer. I have never taken the timing chain cover off. I do nave a compression tester and I will take my compression check and post it. I have a cell phone and can take pictures, but how do I download them? I will try to find out. Thanks!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 21, 2012, 08:05:24 PM
Ok do you have a stock FORD DIZZY. Seriously i cant tell what you are running as i cant follow some of your posts. So do you have a STOCK DIZZY. And if so disconnect that MSD. I have a cart with a couple of them at the shop and that is as far as they go. The stock Ignition system is totally adequate for just about every application you can think of. One thing i learned when i was young is most aftermarket stuff SUCKS. So with that i would pull plug #1 pass side front. And bring the damper up to TDC. Use a long skinny screw driver in the plug hole and rock the damper back and forth with a breaker bar. You will feel the screwdriver come up and down. When the screwdriver comes out the furthest that is app TDC. I am affraid if you try to use the positive stop method you might mess up. When you had your heads off you should have plotted TRUE TDC. As mentioned above the dampers on fords can spin. The inertia ring has a nasty habit of doing this. Also what is with code retrieval. Can you pull codes??? Just curious!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 21, 2012, 08:09:10 PM
Quote from: jcassity;402950
yeah, at worse case he may dump "certain" codes for this non oem gear but,, i suspect hes running on the default tables in the eec, limp mode so to speak.


Jay i have no idea what he is running at this point. I ask definitive questions and they are side tracked. Your guess is as good as mine. When the photos are posted we will see what is UP
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Beau on November 21, 2012, 09:01:49 PM
I laugh when I see 5.0 anythings with stock cams, factory headers, and stock Ford intakes, and of course the hot air intake and that ed red box on the fender.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but if you need an MSD box, you probably don't need to post questions on a forum about simple things like timing your engine..of course, I'm in no way being judgmental here, OP probably acquired said car with the MSD box on it.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 21, 2012, 10:16:43 PM
No ford distributor. I can disconnect the MSG box. There is about two pages of "things to do". What should I start on first?? For those of you who are stressing out, go take a nap.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 22, 2012, 12:30:48 AM
I'll nap when I die
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Crazy88 on November 22, 2012, 12:50:07 AM
"I'll get all the sleep I need when I'm dead." ~ Wade Garrett (http://"http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000385/") - Road House (http://"http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098206/") (1989)
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 22, 2012, 06:42:30 AM
How can i take a NAP when you cant even time a SBF. I wont sleep till this is finished. Many a times i wake up 2 AM and head down to the shop with a fix for a stubborn car. NAP no not with you posting, Seems like you dont get to much NAP TIME!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 22, 2012, 09:19:37 AM
OK, so, now we got that settled, I have a bunch of sleepless, determined, some what perfectionist, live to work on cars, "ZOMBIES" trying to help ME who DOESN'T know squat about EEC fix this car (lol). Does that sound about right? What do you say we TRY to tackle ONE problem at a time?? What would be FIRST, compression check or getting the car started?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 22, 2012, 10:08:49 AM
i would compression test first,, Happy thanksgiving by the way.

sorry to hear about your recent funeral, i meant to mention that the other day.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 22, 2012, 10:28:20 AM
Compression TEST Then true TDC in that order!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 22, 2012, 12:26:07 PM
The compression tester is definitely not the best, Even the compression fitting leaked. Here's what I got:
#1- 140lbs., #2- 150lbs., #3- 140lbs. #4- 150lbs. #5- 140lbs. #6- 140lbs. #7- 130lbs., #8- 130lbs.
That's about as good as it get with my cheap set up. Tom, I know you aren't liking these numbers and probably for good reason. Now I'm going to check true TDC.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 22, 2012, 01:12:01 PM
I have all the plugs out, I have the belt off, so how exactly do I turn the engine over by hand... not to mention watch the screw driver at the same time? Seriously, I think you would have to be a grease gorilla not a grease monkey to pull that off (lol).
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 22, 2012, 01:24:44 PM
You guy's have a great Thanksgiving Day! Enjoy yourselves!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 22, 2012, 02:47:26 PM
Turn the crank with a socket and a breaker bar. It is easy i do it all the time.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 22, 2012, 07:50:00 PM
I don't know why I thought this car didn't have a bolt on the end of the crankshaft. I moved it back and forth several times and to be honest, I couldn't feel any slop. I went by the screw driver in the #1 cylinder and the degree marks on the damper was almost perfect, maybe a degree off.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 22, 2012, 07:58:50 PM
jcassity,
            I will use your post and set the timing tomorrow.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 22, 2012, 08:46:18 PM
What post would that be . The one from the BLACK FOREST that little ELVES WROTE. Hook the light to it with the Spout removed and line up the marks. If the TFI winds up at or around 4 o'clock you are good. (That is if this dizzy has one???)  If not re index it and you are DUN!!!

Just for kicks post a photo of the DIZZY. I am curious about something???
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 22, 2012, 08:53:09 PM
The compression tester is definitely not the best, Even the compression fitting leaked. Here's what I got:
#1- 140lbs., #2- 150lbs., #3- 140lbs. #4- 150lbs. #5- 140lbs. #6- 140lbs. #7- 130lbs., #8- 130lbs.


Ok the chain is good to GO!!! Those readings are not the best by no means but it will run!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 22, 2012, 09:59:47 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;403031
What post would that be . The one from the BLACK FOREST that little ELVES WROTE.
Now THAT was funny!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 22, 2012, 10:05:43 PM
Geez! I can't stop laughing!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 23, 2012, 12:48:18 AM
elf reporting for duty sir!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 23, 2012, 06:47:53 AM
Nice going JAY. I figured a little humor to break the ICE and the TENSION!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 02:52:43 PM
I'm pretty sure I have the timing set up right. The rotor pointed toward 11:00, and the Tfi module pointing at 4:00. I tried to start it and it sounded like it was trying to but it never did. So, I charged my battery up again and I went over to check the voltage on my TPS and now with the battery charged if I turn the ignition to "run" I keep blowing out the same fuse like like before. I tried about a 22 gauge wire and it blew also. Back to the drawing board.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 23, 2012, 03:05:37 PM
Speaking of timing, time to go find the ground short.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 03:14:25 PM
Exactly my thoughts, I'm on my own, nobody to help me out, so I'm going to need a path to follow. Let me go out and take a couple of pictures with my camera and so if I can figure out how to download them to this forum.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 23, 2012, 03:23:04 PM
Replace the link, at least temporarily, with an inline fuse @ about 10 amps. Then, use the diagram to disconnect everything powered by the fuse link. Power up and see if the fuse you installed blows.  If yes, you have a wiring problem.  If no, you have a component problem.  Make sure you have a good supply of those 10 amp fuses, you'll probably blow a bunch of them.  Report back with the result.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 03:32:59 PM
TFYK,
        What if I put the "ole" 27 ga. wire I had be on it and with the cluster apart, start putting one wire at a time back on with the ignition on "RUN" until it blows? That should work?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 23, 2012, 03:41:01 PM
No. The reason is this:  Once you reconnect the link, everything it powers is then also connected. In other words, only loads down-circuit of the problem link can cause it to blow. Loads down-circuit from other links are not suspected, since they can't blow a link they're not powered by. Is that easy enough to understand?

Disconnect any components powered by the problem link ONLY. Then cycle to run to see if the link (or fuse per my previous) blows.  If yes, it's a wiring problem, if no, begin reconnecting until it does blow.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 23, 2012, 03:44:29 PM
It is crucial at this point to know if you're dealing with wiring or components.  This will help you to perform an effective repair more easily and more quickly. 

This is the fork in the road, from here we decide whether we go left or right based on the results of this step.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 03:52:57 PM
I have 4 ea. wires bolted together (other fuse links and amp. meter) I take that apart and I hook up the 27ga. fuse link to one wire at a time. This way I can touch all but the trouble maker, it will through a fit. Right?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 04:03:03 PM
I found a fuse link and I have 4ea. 32v. 10 amp. little fuses I can use.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 04:32:37 PM
Ok, I have a blue wire that I attached long ago to this cluster, it goes to my Amp. meter. Only when I touch it to the connector that has 2ea. yellow, 1ea. black, 1ea. black/o, and red/blue to key will it spark. I disconnected the red/blue key wire and it still sparked. The connector wiring goes into my wheel well.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 23, 2012, 04:39:23 PM
Their you go i told you that that would happen. Did you think the fuse link blew because nothing was wrong. WHEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have to isolate the short or the high current draw. I am loosing my mind !!!! Please God help me!!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 05:06:46 PM
Wow, I took all the wires and connected them together, hooked up the KEY wire to my starter relay, and left the blue wire that goes straight to my AMP. meter off figuring I took the short out and it's ONLY an AMP. meter so it should start...Right?? I hooked up the battery and turned my key to "START" and nothing. The starter has a wire that goes to my starter relay and it is always hot, then another wire going to the other post on my starter relay (switchable) and that should be all it needs right? Now, I'm confused!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 05:20:59 PM
I went out to check what else isn't working, no clock, no radio, no instrument lights, no dome light....nothing!! Nothing in "Accessories" either. She's dead! The other side of the AMP meter, that red wire goes to the starter relay "always hot" post.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 23, 2012, 06:01:30 PM
It's going to be difficult for you to get our help if you don't do anything with our advice.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 06:24:22 PM
I thought I did, the blue wire goes to my amp. meter, amp. meter to my starter relay, The amp. meter works, so it's not shorted. I found the wire causing the short, I disconnected it and everything goes dead. What do I do next?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 23, 2012, 08:37:58 PM
I've been reading up on "electrical" in my shop manual. I'm only fair at best with schematics. So, far my guess is somehow the power to my fuse panel got disconnected when I disconnected the amp. meter. The one thing I did was hook up a new radio while the car has been down. So, I have the radio out where I can look at the wiring as well as the amp. meter. Automotive electrical is definitely my weak link. I may have to hook up alligator clips to my volt/amp. meter so I can reach inside the car. My schematic only shows a yellow wire going to my fuse panel and I have a y/blk stripe (might be battery hot)  and y/grey dots (looks like it's from my EEC) going to my radio. I can't seem to figure out how to get power back without hooking up the short.
Wish me luck!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 24, 2012, 12:28:36 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;403066
Replace the link, at least temporarily, with an inline fuse @ about 10 amps. Then, use the diagram to disconnect everything powered by the fuse link. Power up and see if the fuse you installed blows.  If yes, you have a wiring problem.  If no, you have a component problem.  Make sure you have a good supply of those 10 amp fuses, you'll probably blow a bunch of them.  Report back with the result.

 
no, use your power seat circuit breaker fuse,, it will reset itself when it cools down.  wont go through so many fuses.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 24, 2012, 12:54:22 AM
you are first going to have to do a visual inspection now that your able to repeat the problem.
 power down and then remove the wire loom cover off the entire harness as it travels up and around the strut tower and into the car.


its very possible you have a conductor that melted to another conductor within the wire loom.
next up is to visually inspect the large connector that goes into your ignition switch assembly (not the key switch  but the ign sw itself).

you may have a faulty ignition swtich causing the short.
there is a beebee and an spring inside the ign switch with a chunk of sliding copper , three pieces which can come apart and cause issues.

after your visual inspection do this following in this order please.
-Key off, key out
-might as well pull out your radio also,, reduces the variables for now
-all wires disconnected from the starter relay
-pull all fuses out of your fuse box
-re-install another fuse link or use fuses so you can see if something blew open like advised.
-attach the fuse link lug that keeps blowing back up to your starter relay
====does it blow?  if yes that circuit is touching ground somewhere, follow that circuit up to the shorted area. if no goto next step
-turn key on forward or back
====does fues blow? if yes swap in a new ign switch.  If fuse does not blow, go to next step
====add one fuse at a time and turn on ign sw, eventually your fuse link fuse should blow by adding fuses and this will help isolate the assciated problem circuit.

report back
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 24, 2012, 05:26:37 AM
If you put a 30A circuit breaker in there, you might as well just follow the smoke.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 09:21:49 AM
I would probably go with the 30 amp./smoke deal if I wasn't worried about my EEC, ect.. I think I better take out my ignition switch and look at it, do I need special tools?  I will hook up the fuse link with 10 amp. fuses and follow the instructions. One problem that I am occasionally running into is that the color scheme on my schematics doesn't match what I see.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 24, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
most ign swtiches that have not been touched do require a special tool.
it would be a hollow torx bit,, considered a security bit.

vise grip needle nose pliers help to get it out but once you do, modify the mounting bolts to be a flat head or phillups using a hacksaw.
or install hex head screws in its place.

are you also looking at the 86 evtm Trinom has? , can be found if you click on it in my signature as well.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 01:11:21 PM
Yes, I have the schematic from Trinom. I will have to check into the hollow torx bit and see what I can find. So I guess my first mission is to get my volt/amp. meter and do a visual on the harness. Am I looking for some thing that looks burnt or melted?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Beau on November 24, 2012, 05:46:39 PM
At this point, might consider getting a visually good engine and dash harness from a similar equipped same-year ONLY car and swapping it in.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 24, 2012, 06:24:24 PM
I would suggest at this point to remove the radiator cap and install it on a different car. This is out of control and just about the most ridiculous post i have ever answered. This car is being latterly trashed and cut to pieces with no end in sight. This is not that complicated and for the life of me i cant understand half the things you have dun to this POOR CAR!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 06:26:11 PM
TBS302,
            I will probably consider something along those line when I buy my new engine and transmission. I need to paint my car as well, which I want to do when the engine is out. I was talking to one of my friends today and he told me that he thinks I have my amp. meter hooked up wrong. If he's right, it should be an easy fix and I should be good to go (??), we'll see.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: daminc on November 24, 2012, 06:55:51 PM
you need to start taking pictures, and show us whats going on....and what you are doing...and the meter your using
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 24, 2012, 07:14:37 PM
HOW CAN an ammeter be hooked up wrong!!!!! With this car i am willing to suspect anything is possible. Is the radiator cap good!!!! I am loosing my mind. After posting what 200 comments and this car does not even run and you are PAINTING IT??? Now you are pulling the engine!!! I am out of patience and answers at this point. No one can possibly be sereyous about helping you at this point. You just dont have the ability to fix  this car and or you are MESSING WITH US. Personally i think at this point you are messing with us. No other explanation. That can be the only answer as so far you have not posted one PHOTO and that is very suspicious in my view.  Roll that car down a steep hill in to the sunset HAPPY TRAILS TO YOU!!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 07:49:20 PM
I have my amp. meter hooked up with positive on one side and negative on the other. What he said is, it should be hooked up between the battery and the positive post on my starter relay. Tom, if I knew how to post pictures  I would.
Title: Hope this works.
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 10:01:01 PM
[attach]30848
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 10:02:46 PM
Obviously, it's the bottom one. I'm still trying to figure it out. By the way, it's an old picture. These are pictures I already have on my computer.
Title: Some more. At least I hope there not the same ones!
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 10:10:36 PM
All old engine pictures.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 10:11:31 PM
Tom, take two valum and go to bed.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Haystack on November 24, 2012, 11:05:07 PM
Your car is blowing fuseable links ecause you have a short. The ignition switch is a very likely problem, and one I have had do similar things.

Both of my 86's had a flat bolt with no head on it. I ended up chiseling or drilling them out. Don't remember which.

You can also pull the plastic half off, clean it up good, and see if anything is melted or burned. If it checks out okay, put it back together.

Temporarly splice in a new fuseable link or wire, do not try to start the car. Instead, you need to do a resistance check between your NEGETIVE battery cable, and your individual fuses. If you find one that is a very low resistance, that group will have your short in it.then you can start trouble shooting individual wires, trace each wire back, or replace it.

Electrical is 90% mental and having the right tools. Its really not bad once you break it down.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 24, 2012, 11:26:47 PM
Haystack, 
            So, maybe I should just go straight for the ignition switch? A Dremel might work getting the bolts out.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 07:02:03 AM
Temporarly splice in a new fuseable link or wire, do not try to start the car. Instead, you need to do a resistance check between your NEGETIVE battery cable, and your individual fuses. If you find one that is a very low resistance, that group will have your short in it.then you can start trouble shooting individual wires, trace each wire back, or replace it.

I hate to tell you this stacks but i think  instructing this guy to use an OHM meter is doing him an injustice. Throw the DAM OHM METER IN THE BACK OF THE TOOL BOX AND FORGET ABOUT THAT. All you need to do is use a regular test light or a signal flasher to test these circuits. Foe had a good idea with the head light but i never did that. People need to learn how to use  a test light for conditions like this. In the 48 years in this business i have not once used an OHM METER FOR ANYTHING. Other than to check a set of plug wires. But then even not for that as the cylinder scope does it QUITE NICELY. Forger the DAM OHM METER it is not used for this type of issue never has never will. He will get all kinds of resistance that he will never be able to understand. And any loaded circuits till give him readings. This guy is confuses as it is and instructing him in this manner just makes it worse. JAY explain it to them Please before i hook myself to the coil wire of my Turbo Coupe and ask my daughter to start it. I need some shock treatments to clear my head. ANY OTHER TAKERS!!!!

:punchballs::beatyoass::evilgrin::toilet:
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 25, 2012, 07:57:11 AM
Ok, 1 more time.  Using a test light.
Passenger kick panel, near the PCM, locate and remove the EEC power relay. Connect your problem fuse link. Cycle the key on.  The car won't start this way, but that's ok.

This is all the instruction I'll give you until you come back and tell me that this is done.  At that point you'll be ready to do the test. I'll explain why I had you do that, and what to do next.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 09:56:17 AM
Quote from: 86cougar;403181
Tom, take two valum and go to bed.


86 Take 2 valium and buy a car that actuall runs, THEN DONT TOUCH IT> Best bet for you at this point. Clearly you are messing with us or you do not know what you are doing. SORRY!!! 

Actually those photos answer a few questions, Anyone that owns a SLANT SIX has serious ISSUES!!! And to install a good battery in it is a clear sign of Insanity!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 10:04:15 AM
Quote from: 86cougar;403168
I have my amp. meter hooked up with positive on one side and negative on the other. What he said is, it should be hooked up between the battery and the positive post on my starter relay. Tom, if I knew how to post pictures  I would.

 

What the Hell are you talking about. You have the positive on one side and the negative on the other. That is the silliest thing i have ever heard in my life. It does not tell us a thing. ONE SIDE OF WHAT AND OTHER SIDE WHERE????????????????????? Someone pinch me as i must be in a COMA?????
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Haystack on November 25, 2012, 10:29:44 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;403200
Temporarly splice in a new fuseable link or wire, do not try to start the car. Instead, you need to do a resistance check between your NEGETIVE battery cable, and your individual fuses. If you find one that is a very low resistance, that group will have your short in it.then you can start trouble shooting individual wires, trace each wire back, or replace it.

I hate to tell you this stacks but i think  instructing this guy to use an OHM meter is doing him an injustice. Throw the DAM OHM METER IN THE BACK OF THE TOOL BOX AND FORGET ABOUT THAT. All you need to do is use a regular test light or a signal flasher to test these circuits. Foe had a good idea with the head light but i never did that. People need to learn how to use  a test light for conditions like this. In the 48 years in this business i have not once used an OHM METER FOR ANYTHING. Other than to check a set of plug wires. But then even not for that as the cylinder scope does it QUITE NICELY. Forger the DAM OHM METER it is not used for this type of issue never has never will. He will get all kinds of resistance that he will never be able to understand. And any loaded circuits till give him readings. This guy is confuses as it is and instructing him in this manner just makes it worse. JAY explain it to them Please before i hook myself to the coil wire of my Turbo Coupe and ask my daughter to start it. I need some shock treatments to clear my head. ANY OTHER TAKERS!!!!

:punchballs::beatyoass::evilgrin::toilet:

I use my ohm meter all the time, just for fun while testing curcuits. I especially like to check resistances to check for grounds.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 25, 2012, 12:45:59 PM
well, atleat we know one thing, the fuse link blows again and again so lets zoom in on that issue.

foe~good step you added

tom~ i think he's going to nail the issue here in a couple days if not today.  got a feeling



my thoughts are to focus on that one circuit at this time, thats the issue.


86~ are your wiring diagrams still not matching up or what?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 25, 2012, 02:38:29 PM
I sure hope I get this picture attachments SOON! I have the link attached with a 10 amp. fuse, and the relay disconnected.
Title: Here we go again.
Post by: 86cougar on November 25, 2012, 03:11:01 PM
I hope this works!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 25, 2012, 03:11:46 PM
Finally! Now if I can only figure out what I just did!!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 25, 2012, 04:08:43 PM
jcassity,
            I find some strange colored wires on my harness that I have yet to find on the schematic.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 05:13:36 PM
Jay please explain to this guy that he has to use a continuity tester to isolate the grounded link. He also has to isolate all the GOOD circuits. I dont have the patience any more dealing with this post. The guy just does not listen. And stacks the only true way to test shorts is with a regular test light. As i explained to you an ohm meter is to sensitive and will pick up loaded circuits then you definitely will be chasing BALLOONS. I have been chasing shorts down for more years than i care to admit and never once used an OHM METER. I have used an OHM meter to chase down High resistant sensor escapes like ABS sensors ETC. But for shorts NO WAY. He has a hard short to ground and a test light is the tool. But trying to explain it that he has to isolate the links and use the tool properly is something i just cant explain to this person. So break down the good circuits and and ignore them and concentrate on the one blowing the link. This is dun by installing the test light in series with either the battery side or ground side of the battery cables. Simple and straight forward. You can leave it hooked up and wiggle the harness and see if the light goes out or DIMS. If so you located the general area of the short to ground. Like i said many many posts ago to blow a link you have a hard and fast short to ground. NOW FIND IT!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 05:21:59 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;403229
I sure hope I get this picture attachments SOON! I have the link attached with a 10 amp. fuse, and the relay disconnected.

 

WHY ARE YOU POSTING A DODGE SLANT SIX PHOTO????? Is this the car you are working on. Please dear GOD let me understand what this guy is doing. 86 YOU HAVE TO BE PLAYING US FOR DUMMIES. THAT IS THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER. For what reason on gods earth would you post a slant 6. WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;403229
I sure hope I get this picture attachments SOON! I have the link attached with a 10 amp. fuse, and the relay disconnected.


WHY ARE YOU SHOWING US A SLANT SIX. I already know what they look like. I have worked on a hundred of them in my career. OK IT IS A SLANT SIX... NOW WHAT????????????????????????????????????????
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Crazy88 on November 25, 2012, 05:36:36 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;403241
WHY ARE YOU SHOWING US A SLANT SIX. I already know what they look like. I have worked on a hundred of them in my career. OK IT IS A SLANT SIX... NOW WHAT????????????????????????????????????????

In some sort of a-body chrysler product no less... looks like some variant of the Valiant.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 25, 2012, 05:43:06 PM
Ok, Here we go...
With the link attached through your fuse, and the relay pulled, you turn on the key and...

The fuse blows, or does not blow?

We're going to start at the site of the EEC power relay.  Use the test light. 
I want to know:
is there power at the relay connector on the Black/Orange wire? (clip to ground, probe to connector terminal)
is there Voltage drop at the same location? (clip to hot, probe to Black/Orange connector terminal)

Describe the behavior of the test light in these 2 tests.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 05:57:55 PM
Crazy88 i agree 100% but clearly he knows how to post photos??? So the Question is WHAT THE HELL DOES HE WANT!!!!! We told him 3BILLION TIMES HOW TO RUN DOWN A SHORT. Maybe he wants us to see a slant SIX> I WILL PASS ON THIS ONE!!!! SEEN MANY IN THE DAY!!!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 25, 2012, 06:55:03 PM
I hooked up the light to ground and to the relay and before I even turned the switch on to "run" it lit up bright. I turned it to "run" and it stayed on bright. I then hooked it up to the opposite side of the connector on the relay swicth and it did NOT light up and the fuse is still good. Wish I could figure out how to get rid of that last attachment!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 07:20:34 PM
OF COURSE IT IS LIT UP. You just tested the fuse LINK!!!!! That one is OK. D'OH!!!! And going to the opposite side it does not light up. First off you dont have the relay in and second if you did you have not commanded it on . The ECM commands the thing on, So the wiring is OK to the relay feed non switched punching. This proves the wire is not grounded. Now plug the relay in and key the car. If the fuse pops you found your ground!!! It is after the relay. And that relay feeds quite a lot of stuff. Injectors ECM and a fiew other sensors. SO PULL THE PRINTS AND START UNPLUGGING THEM TILL THE FUSE NO LONGER BLOWS. simple!!! But i knew this 100 Posts back!!! NO SES LIGHT WHEN KEYED NO EEC VOLTAGE!!!

NOTE that relay is fed direct battery from the fuse link. Do you understand this ????
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2012, 07:35:29 PM
Here is what it feeds

1 ECM
2 INJ BANK 1
3 INJ BANK 2
4 FP RELAY
5 CAN PURGE
6 EGR SOLENOID
7 IAC
8 Air pump 1&2 Forgot it was late. 

I have a feeling something is grounded on or near the engine. As you been messing around their for months. Their is a main connector that feeds those circuits you have to disconnect it to isolate the short. Not sure if that car has a salt and pepper
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 25, 2012, 08:03:07 PM
Down circuit of the eec relay are the injectors, the air pump solenoids, the egr solenoid, the canister purge solenoid, obviously the EEC, and the fuel pump relay and the Wide-Open Throttle Cut-Out relay.  The IAC is not down circuit of the EEC Relay in this vehicle.

I want you to key off, reinstall the EEC relay. Then: disconnect the salt and pepper shakers (do you know what those are?), Key on, and what happens to the fuse?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 25, 2012, 10:37:22 PM
TFYK,
          They must be the two connectors attached to the upper intake manifold. I will do first thing in the morning and get back with you. Thanks!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 25, 2012, 11:15:52 PM
Thats right.  Disconnecting them will disconnect the injectors, but be careful, they're know to become brittle with age. Disconnect them, and the 2 air pump solenoids, and the egr solenoid. Google them if you need to know what they look like. Once you're ready, cycle the key on and see if your link blows.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 26, 2012, 12:58:53 AM
i mentioned isolating the salt & pepper shakers already,, good to see this coming back.

86~NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH HERE,,,,,,,,,,,,,, has anyone to your knowledge and dont be bashful to say yes even if its you..... Has anyone tried to power up the fuel pump relay in any way to help troubleshoot the issues(s)?

what i mean is , has anyone forced power onto the fuel pump relay?

keep troubleshooting, also follow my last step by step test along with what Foe is saying.

Tom is right and has the better approach, although i use an ohm meter many times and its technically the best way to find shorts to ground, you can only really do this the best way with all fuses out.

If you have continuity from the fuse link wiring directly to chassis ground,, then doing a wiggle test is good.  If your meter has a setting called Diode check which allows the meter to BEEP when you have continuity, then you can do as tom said and do a wiggle test on the wire.

lets say your find that you have continuity of some value from that fuse link to ground, put the meter to audible "BEEP" diode check and leave it beeping away... now wiggle that harness until the meter starts getting intermittant or the beep goes away.  Just as mentioned with a test light, the bulb would also act intermittant as well.

when i fiddle with dead shorts to ground, i would rather not have power on the circuit im working on for many reasons... but thats just the avionics tech in me coming out.

seriously though, that slant six stuff you posted at first bout blew me out of the water,,,, i was not fully functional after i saw the pics but then i remembered you said you woudl have to figure out how to post pics.  lets see about getting on point with Foe's step by step if you want, either way i will back off for a moment so you dont have 7 different people telling you to do things,, unless that is if you choose to go back and test some things advised,,, thats fine as as well.

to me, its most important to have a matching wiring diagrams...  In my honest and most professional opinion, (((THIS))) is the very first thing you need or else you will be chasing baloons. 

Why is it your not able to match up your wiring diagrams is beyond me so double check....

pull up my 87 evtm diagrams and then see if they match up better.

perhaps your earlier point to having "early 86" wiring and how it surprised softtouch may have some validity.  If you stump softtouch, your doing something!!!!

by the way, we are actually having a little bit too much fun here, everyones still going to help you either way,, think of it like big brothers in a garage and eventually one of them is gonna have a bigger dick than the other.....  : ) 
Around here, if it cant be done im my garage, then it cant be done!! Im confident in myself and certainly its obvious your surrounded by a lot of type A personalities,,, yep thats me.    Keep this  simple man, make the fuse blow then figure out what you do that makes it **not blow** and let that part be known.

me personally, i worry your schematics are still not good nuff for what your doing... hope you can fix that or find the closest match.
ping softtouch when you can about this issue because a guy "ERIC" may want to record this special information in his "coolcats" site,, it would be a note worthy special bunch of data for the 86 car. 

i have a couple reasons to say this and the first one i can think of is a thread about 3 years ago on a turbo coupe which was an 86 and a simple 3g upgrade caused this guys car to burn to the ground,, we as a whole team and as well all the panel of experts have yet to this day figure out what happened,, caused me to revise my turbocoupe 3g wiring insturction sticky as well because those Ammeters are / have been goofy ,, as you mention your year car and you happen to mention someone telling you updated info in thier opinion about the Ammeter makes me worry even more.

get the ammeter out / off the circut if your questioning it,,,
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 26, 2012, 05:14:16 AM
FOE i just pulled the print on this car and it clearly shows the IAC in that circuit as most all of them i work on have the clamping diode and feeds 37-57. Either way i dont see what you posted that for. The print does not lie. If we are going to nit pick between our selves this guy is in way to deep already. So i used a print for an 86 with a 302, If this is wrong i checked back and forward and they show the same thing. As far as i know all 12 Volt supplied battery's in the Power train running gear is powered up by the EEC.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 26, 2012, 05:17:33 AM
The IAC is not down circuit of the EEC Relay in this vehicle.

SHOW ME?????

I left out the air pump 1&2 Sorry. But at this point who cares!!!!

I checked this out in 8 places and went with several prints around his years.

OK FOE HERE IT IS. All 12 volt devices are powered through the EEC relay (power train distribution). I am shocked you did not know that????

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-147.jpg)
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 26, 2012, 07:39:35 AM
Went back to my diagram, and after closer inspection I believe it to be wrong, so my bad.  Regardless, if he disconnects the salt and pepper (C475 and C477), as a couple of us have said, the IAC will still be disconnected.
X
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 26, 2012, 10:00:18 AM
jcassity,
            I knew a lot of you guys saw what was going on. Sure, I get tired of getting bashed very time I ask a question, but it's always by the same person (the head rooster). Sad thing is the guy's got a lot of good information and can be very helpful.... Enough said, I doubt that any one has forced power to the fuel pump relay, but with a 26 year old car who knows. I really like the way TFYK is instructing this process. It took me a while to figure out the  deal with the pictures, but I knew I needed to give you guy's more to work with. Thanks!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 26, 2012, 12:30:36 PM
Great you are on YOUR OWN the BIG ROOSTER
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 26, 2012, 12:33:26 PM
You are a GOOD MAN FOE i checked that circuit a hundred times before with IAC issues. It is a shame how those ford prints are so messed up. Dont feel bad that is why i double and triple check them. It has happened to me more than once. I have chased many a BALLOON IN my career. Thanks for being honest THE BIG ROOSTER!!!

NOT BAD I LIKE TO BE CALLED THE BIG ROOSTER. TOM JR now calls me that in the shop. Only problem i am semi retired and he is the big ROOSTER NOW.

TFYK this peoblem is all YOURS GOOD LUCK. Hay i use the multi colored TUMS when dealing with 86 Now it is your turn. Good luck 86. No hard feelings!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 26, 2012, 01:17:15 PM
TFYK, I did disconnect the salt and pepper shakers, egr solenoid, and air pump solenoid and reconnected the EEC relay the turned to key to "run". The fuse is still good.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 26, 2012, 01:18:24 PM
What do you know!!!! A miracle!!!! THANK THE LORD. Getting somewhere NOW!!!! WHEEEEEEEEE!!!!! The BIG ROOSTER!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 26, 2012, 02:31:24 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;403289
What do you know!!!! A miracle!!!! THANK THE LORD. Getting somewhere NOW!!!! WHEEEEEEEEE!!!!! The BIG ROOSTER!!!

LOL, your awsome tom!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 26, 2012, 02:31:55 PM
I haven't heard anything, so what I did was I made sure my battery was charged up, then I started with the pump solenoids and plugged everything back in one at a time each time turning the key to "run". I then tried turning the A/C fan on and the rear defroster on and the 10 amp. fuse is still good.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 26, 2012, 02:42:24 PM
Jay i know you are great at this stuff. Just having some laughs thats all. Peace Brother!! THE BIG ROOSTER SPOKE

 Dont mind that big ROOSTER BEHIND THE CURTAIN He is just the messenger. But if you bring me the TORQUE WRENCH of the ASE certified WICKED WITCH of the NORTH i will grant you your wishes and fix the car!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 26, 2012, 06:10:28 PM
Like I said...This car is possessed. I put the 10amp. fuse in line, unplugged every thing TFYK suggested. I plugged in the EEC relay, hook up one wire at a time and checked the fuse each time and now everything is hooked back up and the fuse IS STILL GOOD! I did notice a relay was making a funny hissing sound so I disconnected it, put a slice in between each connector inside the relay (tested each wire individually) and the fuse is still good. I cleaned it up and now it is clicking like it should when it gets power. So, I figure the problem must be when I turn the key to start. So, everything hooked up I try to start the car and it starts RIGHT up. No hesitation at all. I checked the timing with my light and it is at about 4 degrees BTDC. When I move the distributor, it is as close to 8-10 degrees as I can get. I still need to get a tach. so I know what RPM I'm at. It starts good and runs good for a while then starts to run rough. First thing I'm going to do is replace that relay.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 26, 2012, 06:28:16 PM
I have no idea if this what the problem is, but/ I'm going to start replacing all the relays ass well as the wiring harness anyway
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 26, 2012, 06:35:59 PM
I don't know if this is my problem, but I'm going to replace the harness as well as the relays.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: daminc on November 26, 2012, 06:40:56 PM
what's with all the wire splices, electrical tape, and wires changing colors?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 26, 2012, 07:07:13 PM
Daminc,
          Your talking about the yellow/black wire. That's just my MSD box. That's been there forever. I'm going to remove it and see if it's acting up. I'm going to clean my fuel injectors again, just to make sure all is well, and it will give me another chance to make sure the connectors are alright. I need to buy me a tach. so I can set my timing, and replace that old relay.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 26, 2012, 09:52:20 PM
Just curious why would you need a TACH to time the car. The BIG ROOSTER IS CURIOUS???????

WOW YEP WHEE INTERMITTENT TROUBLES ARE A BITCH!!!! NOW WHAT THE BIG ROOSTER IS JUST CURIOUS???

Hint!!!!! If you like from the ROOSTER ANY TAKERS!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Chrome on November 27, 2012, 12:55:36 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;403278
Great you are on YOUR OWN the BIG ROOSTER
You do kind of remind me of Foghorn Leghorn.

(http://[IMG]http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo291/crsblank/cartoons/FL5.jpg)[/IMG]
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 27, 2012, 01:32:24 AM
hey big rooster,
do you have a cross over diagram of integrating an MSD ignition system into a fox chassis 5.0?

thinking this wiring needs double checked.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 27, 2012, 01:37:55 AM
86~
take all the time you need but draw a box diagram of all the wires with colors as best you can how it is wired up in your engine bay.

need that for sure

im surprised your fuse link did not blow ,, the hissing from the relay "might" have been the diode shorting out or ,, a chunk of  sizzling away.

this is interesting though, its the third time you said the car started and ran fine but from what i can tell, upon warm up, the computer is playing a roll (be it normal or not) in getting the engine to suddenly run rough.

still you can not pull any codes eh?

pls confirm the exact fuse link again,,  define it from your evtm and also post a pic


also, in the pic you posted, is your battery out of the car?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 27, 2012, 05:35:59 AM
JAY the MSD 6 AL if that is what he has is a simple setup. You have 2 wires that hook directly to the BATTERY Black & RED. The other 4 wires are simple. One set goes to the coil plug after you remove it from the coil. The other end from the MSD has a plug that goes on the coil.  Another words you remove the coil plug from the coil. Then  Plug it in the MSD then the msd has a coil plug that plugs in to the Engines coil. Another words it is in series with the original coil wires. 

Here is how i hook them up. I remove the 2 battery leads from the unit to the battery. Then i remove the 2 connectors from the cars stock wiring and restore it as it was stock. I then grab the appropriate tool to remove however it is mounted in the car. Then i look at it and throw the PIECE OF JUNK IN THE DUMPSTER WHERE IT BELONGS!!!  Just Saying!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 09:02:49 AM
Jcassit,
            To be honest I forgot all about trying to retrieve the codes, I'll try again this morning. I'm going to remove the MSD box and see if maybe it has latent damage. That in itself could cause many problems. From what I have been able to figure out is it looks like fuse link "F" according to the schematic. The wire is Blk/O. Yep, no smoke, fuse link is doing fine and everything seems to be working. In the post, the battery is still there.

Tom,
      I'm glad to see you back! I know your passionate about your job and cars, that's probably why you are still reading this post. I do need your help. I did say I stayed away from automotive electrical because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm not messing with anyone, I really just want to get my car running. I really can't do what ten people tell me to do, that's where thing get messed up. One thing at a time and hopefully "we'll be off to see the Wizard"! You are right...INTERMITTENT PROBLEMS ARE A BITCH!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 27, 2012, 11:00:43 AM
fuse link F goes out to the engine hood lamp only.

i looked at Trinoms 86evtm and my 87evtm,, they both are the same.

is the black org you speak of a tiny black org or a larger one?


if your talking about the fuse link F and it blew open on the small black org wire side then inspect the hood lamp for intermittant where it ventures up and into the hood on the pass side.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 11:54:17 AM
jcassity,
            It is a small wire. Really, it's most likely fuse link "L". That goes to my EEC and like someone suggested earlier, my EEC might be acting up once it gets warmed up. That's an easy fix (r & r). Mine is 26 years old and tired and they are inexpensive, so it's time to throw it in the thrash. I removed the MSD box and it's the same so the process of elimination goes on. I did check the timing with my light and it is still off. The fuse link is still good and my car starts RIGHT up. Thanks!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 27, 2012, 01:14:59 PM
The ECM just might be the issue, normally solenoids wont ground out. I am thinking it just might be a bad ECM. When it heats up or commands something on it might ground out that circuit. Basically you are at this devices mercy. And just for the record this issue is a BITCH. Reason being it is intermittent. Also the fuse at 10A is to low now. I would up it to a 20A And i would read the current draw of the circuit you are working on. Also check all wiring harnesses in the systen for chafine or rub throughs. You judt might have moved a harness and cleared the TROUBLE. Time to DIG IN AS WE SAY!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 02:25:30 PM
Really Tom, It's good to have you back!  I did turn the key on to "RUN" and wiggled the harness. That's when I found the problem with the relay. The reading on fuse link "L" is 12.41V (no key) and 12.0V with key on ("RUN"). From what I've seen, there are a boat load of different EEC's out there, so when I go to buy another one how do I know I have the right one? My concern is that the guy at the store didn't seem too sure himself. Thanks!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 02:32:23 PM
This is my bar code off my EEC.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 27, 2012, 02:44:21 PM
They go by the numbers. Example the E6 indicates an 86. That number will cross over to a reman no problem!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
I tried getting codes with key on "RUN" and with the car running, this time nothing at all.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 27, 2012, 03:13:31 PM
If you cant pull codes you have a bad ECM. Sounds like you have an open Sig Rtn punching on the ecm.

Do THIS!!! Remove the connector from the EGR positioned. Key the car and check voltages on all 3 pins to ground. Another words hook your ground lead of your  meter to a good ground. Then check the pins with the connector removed from the sensor. Then post the results. Naturally the ECM has to be in the car and connected!!!


OR better yet check the resistance between pins 60 & 46 of the ecm with it removed from the 60 PIN CONNECTOR. What is the reading???
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 04:24:12 PM
Tom,
    I know this is going to sound strange, but My #60 has NO female pin. What I did was put my red lead into the #46 (signal ground) and being #60 is ground, I just grounded it to the body. The reading I got was .002 set at 2 ohms on my meter. I also found out that on that relay I shot a picture of and was making funny noises, the wire #5 female was pushed all the way out and it will not stay in. I guess the clip that holds it is broken. I still need to know exactly what that relay is for. I plugged it in and it made no difference. Thanks!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 27, 2012, 05:06:26 PM
Try pin 40 to 46. Or do the voltage test on the EGR connector!!

Also when you do this test on the ECM do not have it hooked up to the car

This ECM is SHOT!!!

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-28.jpg)

This ECM is OK!!!

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-56.jpg)
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 06:01:44 PM
Tom, looks like your hooked up differently than what the schematic that was sent to me.http://www.auto-diagnostics.info/ford_eec_iv  I got .000v reading on #46 and #40. I took the connector off the EGR and it read .006v.. So, that should mean my EEC is good and I'm getting almost no voltage (key on) to my EGR...right?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Trinom on November 27, 2012, 06:33:29 PM
He's not reading volts, he's reading diode voltage drop. You must use continuity tester (diode symbol on your multimeter).
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 27, 2012, 07:08:42 PM
What i am trying to do is guide you to why you cant get codes. Either the ALDL port has no signal return or you are not doing it correctly.


Grounding the STI lead will start self test. Seems like you are either not doing this or the SIG RTN is open.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 09:10:24 PM
I did a continuity test between #40 and #46 and I DO have continuity. I also check for continuity on #60 and #46 and I DO have continuity. I then went to my EGR connector and turned the key to on and I have .09v, .09v, and 5.12v. I hope that helps! When you say a voltage test I assumed you wanted me to check for voltage, not continuity, my mistake. The first test I did on the EGR connector, I tested between the black wire and the other two wires within the connector itself, again I was wrong.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 09:36:22 PM
On post #150 jcassity sent me instructions for hooking up the ALDL. I tried to use option #3 but my service light always stays on, and option #1 but it did nothing even when I started the car. The thing that really throws my is the fact that when I started the car today, the timing is still at about 4 degrees BTDC. Even with the distributor set and true top dead center is set, the timing if off. I turned down the RPM's as low as I could and it made no difference. Now the car stumbles a little right off once it's warmed up. I've never had this much trouble timing a car! Well, that's as far as I got today. Thanks!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 27, 2012, 09:42:01 PM
86 the RPM does not matter if the spout is out. When the spout is out the ECM goes neutral and does not have control of the timing. That is why i asked you previously why yo needed a TACH to set it. YOU DONT. I you have continuity on those pins your ecm should post codes ar a pass11
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 27, 2012, 10:05:35 PM
I didn't know that about the spout and how it effects the timing. What is :codes ar a pass11? So, do you think my EEC is good or still uncertain? I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong getting codes! I will try again in the morning.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 28, 2012, 12:15:47 AM
He's been messing with the idle screw, NOW he needs a tach, but only once he gets it timed.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 28, 2012, 01:08:26 AM
Quote from: 86cougar;403300
I don't know if this is my problem, but I'm going to replace the harness as well as the relays.

 
i keep going back to your post (yes i am listening) where you show that relay.
None of the 87/88 cars had this relay there so i can make an assumption( risky ) but yet i will..... list the color codes on the wires going to the relay.

i can see them but your best to post them.

also, we really need a better picture of the fuse link sort of fanned out so to speak so we can determine the actual fuse link that blew.

also, like i said a LONG time ago,, htere are more fuse links in the wire loop that is hiddend under the battery tray.

as for timing, you were told to not time the car with the sprout installed... you were also told not to remove or replace the sprout jumper with the car running.  just fyi.

now if you can manage to get code 11, life is good for the eec.

I am interested to understand why we are discussing the diagonstic wire being faulty,, this is what i was illuding to a long while back askign you if the fuel pump relay was manipulated in any way in order to force it to power up.

if someone does not know that the EEE supplies the ground to the fuel pump relay via the tan/light green wire, and they force power or ground wrong, they will spike the eec and damage it.
the tan light green wire "T"'s off or parallels off the eec and reappears at our diagnostic connector.  like i said, it also is controlling your fuel pump relay.

If you ground the tan/light green wire on diagnostic connector then key on the car, the fuel pump should run constantly.... if the fuel pump does not.... report back.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 28, 2012, 05:24:03 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;403440
He's been messing with the idle screw, NOW he needs a tach, but only once he gets it timed.

Their is no idle screw!!!! It is called a MIN idle screw and then the IAC takes OVER. Lacking a tach he can just remove the IAC lead and adjust the MIN IDLE SCREW till the thing idles at a reasonable speed. But technically this is dun with a tach. But their is enough latitude to not need one.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 28, 2012, 05:29:46 AM
Jay the car runs so the fuel pump must be running off the ECM. Unless he has that JURY RIGGED!!! Simple test would be the TIME OUT. If you key the car and not start it 86. Does the Fuel pump run and then time out and stop??? If it does you are DUN!!!

Jay if memory serves me the FP relay is in the TRUNK I Think????
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 08:50:23 AM
jcassit, I will do my best, the harness is worn out and most stripes are hard to tell if they were blue or purple ect.. what I see on the relay is as follows: 2ea. pink/blue, 1ea. black/yellow, 1ea. orange/blue, 1ea. red/blue. Here is a picture of the fuse link, black/orange to cluster with nut and bolt. The spices and twist nuts are to my MSD box.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 08:57:54 AM
One other thing, on the top picture the top fuse link actually had two wires coming off it. I cut the burnt fuse off so I would not have a problem with it touching anything while hot. Also, as you can see the temporary fuse link is not hooked up at the time of the picture.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 09:15:26 AM
Tom, the fuel pump is not jury rigged. Yes, I can hear the relay clink on and time out.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 10:13:44 AM
I went out and tried to get "codes" but nothing. Here is how I'm hooking up.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 28, 2012, 10:18:15 AM
Take that wire nut and fling it across the road.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 10:38:54 AM
Once the electrical issue is dealt with, I'm going to go in and solder and shrink sleeve the harness. Looks like everyone is busy this morning.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 28, 2012, 12:06:22 PM
Wire nuts on a CAR ENGINE. That is way over the TOP!!!! Well i do not know what that bundle of a rats nest is and it is beyond fixing unless i was actually seeing it in PERSON!!! Sorry!! The Fuel pump is operating correctly LEAVE IT ALONE!!! Now you need to retrieve codes.

Is that thging in your hand a test LIGHT??? And does it work??? You might want to use that bulb setup you made. You need to retrieve codes or you are dead in the WATER.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 12:14:34 PM
So, I take it I need to go and solder the harness. You did see the pictures of the ALDL.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 12:30:16 PM
Alright!! I went into the car and looked at those two wires I  have told you about. They are where the radio hooks up. One is hot (y/gray dots) and the other is (y/blk stripe) So I put them together and tried to get codes. This is what I got: 1  11  111  111  1  11  111  111  1  (long pause)  1  11111  1    11111 Then it stopped.  Let me know if that helps!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 12:40:40 PM
I tried to read this but some of it does not seem right. Is it TPS short power, and air injection (smog pump)? The rest I could not make out.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 02:17:44 PM
I just off the phone with jcassity, and I had him listen to the codes and he had me answer some question and try different things. Now with the yellow wires hooked up to the computer and adjusting the idle, my car seems to be idling a lot better. I need to fix an exhaust leak, check the transmission fluid one more time then test drive it. Alright!!!!!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 28, 2012, 02:22:56 PM
codes just got successfully pulled. KOER...... using a 12v buzzer
23- who cares for now but its there
31-evp was not hooked up, now it is.

in memory,
15- makes sense since the batt was disc so many times.

He will pull codes again to see if the 31 clears, 15 will hang around for a while before it goes away.
23 can be addressed later i suppose.

up'd the idle till it felt right when in D or R
seems smooth now but we'll see.

smog pump pipe that comes from the exhaust is broken off, needs temp plug or perm splice for testing but that can wait.

asked he check for nice deep blueish white spark,,, he will report back.
we cant do fuel testing, fitting is broke off,,,  but eec not indicating lean/rich so it is what it is.

as for dist orientation, my number 1, coil and number 6 plug posts on the dizzy are pointing straight at the fire wall.
this give us the optimum tfi orientation.
his car has number 8 dizzy post pointing straight at the fire wall.... Odd?  what say you tom? still off a tooth?  the TDC test you had him do tells us its correct though,, confussed.  Foe? your thoughts?
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 03:03:40 PM
Everybody must be still helping Vinnie out....
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 28, 2012, 05:03:54 PM
It is so ironic that VINNE BLEW A LINK. The exact one you blew.

Ok where is the timing and do you have enough range to adjust it to 10* BTDC If not you have to move it one tooth then retime.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 06:21:40 PM
Ironic... you have some crazy friends! Seriously Tom, I really want to Thank You! You were there to help out a person you never met before even though it was driving you crazy. Well, the Marine in you showed up and stood strong! I don't care what any one say's about you, joking or not. After about five month's of working on this car it looks like I have a few more small items to take care of and hopefully, I will be on the road again. I still can't believe it's almost over....for now anyway. I need a break! A lot of guys here helped me out and sometimes it got a little confusing but looks like we all got it done. I'm sure it would take me a long time to understand what most of you already know about cars. Seriously, I've been considering going back to school and taking a few automotive classes (GOD help my instructor)!! Yep Tom, it looks like I've got to move the distributor a tooth...kinda like some scary movies end, you know Jason never dies. Thanks to all of you who helped me out!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 28, 2012, 08:19:22 PM
your dizzy drives a hex shaped shaft  which drives the oil pump.

due to the geometry conflict where the dizzy gear may not agree with the hex shaft , it may be very difficult to move the dizzy one tooth.

i always hate to deal with this small but major issue.

if your able to "feel" the dizzy drop in on another tooth ( i suspect you need to move it clockwise one tooth) , and you feel / see that the dizzy isnt going in all the way,,, you have to kinda rotate the crank a little to the left and right to help the dizzy mate up to the oil pump shaft.

its real hard to explain but you'll see.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 28, 2012, 08:20:17 PM
No sweat if you can index a DIZZY you are not that BAD!!! Always remember when indexing for late timing you have to ADVANCE THE ROTOR!!! Then back off the body!!! SEMPER FI. Now button it up and drive the GOD DAM THING. RECON RULES!!! THE ROOSTER!!! WELL AT LEAST I GOT A COOL NICK NAME OUT OF THE DEAL!!!


I wear this patch with HONOR AND VALOR

(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Kitties160.jpg)
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 28, 2012, 09:12:57 PM
Adjusting the dizzy won't be a problem. I must have went back and forth 30 times trying to get it to line up. Every time I move it have to turn it a little so it drops, nothing new. I really did learn a lot from all you guys! I really am going to look up auto electronics at the local college. I took some auto classes there, but that was about 30 years ago (half you guys probably weren't even born yet). I don't have to tell you things have changed since then! Thanks!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Chrome on November 28, 2012, 09:32:36 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;403525
Adjusting the dizzy won't be a problem. I must have went back and forth 30 times trying to get it to line up. Every time I move it have to turn it a little so it drops, nothing new. I really did learn a lot from all you guys! I really am going to look up auto electronics at the local college. I took some auto classes there, but that was about 30 years ago (half you guys probably weren't even born yet). I don't have to tell you things have changed since then! Thanks!
Classes may help a little. It will give you some of the basics of fuel injection and the electrical that you need help with. Unfortunately, much of what we do on here is history. This site will be your best friend for working on a Fox Bird or Cougar. I have learned a lot here because these cars are before my time (not by age, but cars I had worked on professionally). We will be glad to assist you when we can. That is just what we do. We help each other, and laugh with each other, even though most of us will never meet in person.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 28, 2012, 10:43:22 PM
tom,
I earned me a 1st ID badge from battalion but i was a civ in iraq so it was kind of an honor.

btw,, that badge,, i use the same strategy when i fart.  (no disrespect),, just sayin  : )
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 29, 2012, 09:14:07 AM
And may be just as lethal! (lol)
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 29, 2012, 08:45:36 PM
Yes we were LETHAL ALL RIGHT TET 1968.

Been their on the lethal GAS ISSUE!!!! WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE SEA RATIONS!!!!! YUCKIE!!!! Thanks Guys!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on November 29, 2012, 09:25:25 PM
mr 86 here is a retired Raytheon guy,,,,!!! im sure our service has crossed paths more than once or twice directly or indirectly.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 30, 2012, 09:36:20 AM
It's been my pleasure learning from you guys! Some times it's like going to the Smithsonian Institute of cars and asking about a fuse link. (lol) Jcassity, It was a pleasure talking to you the other day, hopefully I will get the chance to talk to some of you others as well. I'm beginning to think NASA should start building fuse links. If they can make a doll that talks, they can make a fuse link that will tell us why it blew.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: Trinom on November 30, 2012, 10:34:56 AM
You don't need NASA to do this. If you have a small 0,5W light bulb (http://"http://dx.com/p/0-56w-indicator-yellow-light-bulbs-for-car-audio-system-5-pack-47983") all you have to do is to wire it across the fuse link. If it blows, the bulb will shine.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on November 30, 2012, 10:47:16 AM
So, if you hook up an LED beside your fuse links, and your car blows one on the road at 1:00 a.m., you could easily diagnose the problem.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 30, 2012, 01:06:43 PM
Well if you loose a link at 1 am you are screwed even if you know which one it is D'OH!!!!!
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 30, 2012, 01:09:11 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;403601
It's been my pleasure learning from you guys! Some times it's like going to the Smithsonian Institute of cars and asking about a fuse link. (lol) Jcassity, It was a pleasure talking to you the other day, hopefully I will get the chance to talk to some of you others as well. I'm beginning to think NASA should start building fuse links. If they can make a doll that talks, they can make a fuse link that will tell us why it blew.



Cars do not use them any more. They use MAXI FUSES and you will most likely know in 30 Seconds when one BLOWS

STUFF STOPS WORKING  D"OH!!! :toilet::evilgrin::shakeass:
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on December 01, 2012, 07:27:27 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;403615
Cars do not use them any more. They use MAXI FUSES and you will most likely know in 30 Seconds when one BLOWS

STUFF STOPS WORKING  D"OH!!! :toilet::evilgrin::shakeass:

Yes, (wanna be) HEAD ROOSTER, we know.  Do you read english? You seem to miss the point a lot.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 01, 2012, 07:47:34 PM
REALLY man now i am disappointed in you. You dont like my postings or advice OK will bow out. I know when i am second best. Thanks for the warning
NOW I AM A WANNER BE. OK that is cool . BUT!!! WANNER BE WHAT> like a mechanic. Just a thought.  What point am i MISSING. Fascinating several times i pointed out troubling shooting procedures to you that you missed the point on. No sweat i will be good from now on Thanks for the beat down i like when that happens. Have a good weekend!!!

Well here is a simple project i am working on. Re pinning an ECM from OPTI spark LT1 to LS COP. I am confused but i will mill through it.

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/sale002.jpg)

OK FINISHED> NEXT wiring issue. Thank god Thomas Edison Stopped by. I would have been lost without him!!!

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/sale001.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LCsiWL6gn0
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on December 01, 2012, 08:35:42 PM
I think the point your missing is that there is not a HEAD ROOSTER on any forum. You seem to get real upset if someone else voices their experience or advice. It doesn't make you wrong or them right. From what I've seen and heard here you are most likely a very good mechanic, but your only one of MANY on this forum. Good luck on you nest.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on December 02, 2012, 01:09:15 AM
Quote from: Trinom;403608
You don't need NASA to do this. If you have a small 0,5W light bulb (http://"http://dx.com/p/0-56w-indicator-yellow-light-bulbs-for-car-audio-system-5-pack-47983") all you have to do is to wire it across the fuse link. If it blows, the bulb will shine.

kinda like  pilot fuse for a larger fuse such as what they we do with larger fuse panels in -48v dc plant,,, like with an 800A TPL fuse in that using a pilot is the indication which fuse blew.

decent idea really.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: jcassity on December 02, 2012, 01:12:42 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;403614
Well if you loose a link at 1 am you are screwed even if you know which one it is D'OH!!!!!

had this happen to my son, on the road.  jumpered around the link with his power window circuit breaker knowing it was a risk but with the safeguard that the breaker would open if there was a real downstream fault... there was because the breaker opened so we pulled him home.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: 86cougar on December 02, 2012, 08:21:20 AM
Safety first. Nobody want to force a bad issue with their car and maybe make matters worse. But, it would be nice to know where the problem is. Diagnosing a electrical problem can take some time and be a real pain.
Title: Timing a possessed Cougar.
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 02, 2012, 08:33:04 AM
DAM and i so wanted to answer this!!!!!!!! Hay how about FOG HORN. Did you like the clips. Nobody listens to him EITHER~~~
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