Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: shad1965 on November 02, 2012, 08:57:09 AM

Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 02, 2012, 08:57:09 AM
Hi guys i have a 88 cougar xr7 with 5.0 my prob is when i start it, it just cranks, unless i hold to floor the fires up and runs, its not flooding out. car burns the tires, i know it needs iac valve but that shouldnt make it so i have to floor it to start....no mods all stock...:evilgrin:
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 02, 2012, 09:31:37 PM
You gotta be kidding me, all these fox body guys on here and nobody repliies.....hmmmmm
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 02, 2012, 09:39:21 PM
When you floor the pedal the car is in clear FLOOD MODE!!!
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: daminc on November 02, 2012, 09:55:14 PM
Quote from: shad1965;401832
You gotta be kidding me, all these fox body guys on here and nobody repliies.....hmmmmm

 Well it is the weekend ya know...beer thirty come early for some of us... ;)
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: daminc on November 02, 2012, 09:56:16 PM
Have you checked for codes?
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: vinnietbird on November 02, 2012, 10:03:44 PM
Iac, TPS........
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: FirstBird on November 02, 2012, 10:22:59 PM
Yup I'd second the TPS
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: jcassity on November 03, 2012, 01:57:38 AM
Pull the codes, click on My DIY link and you'll see how

With the throttlebody completely closed turn your key forward and you should have less than 1 V DC on the green wire to ground at the TPS
It's best to use an buttstuffog meter to move the throttlebody open slowly as you watch the needle on your meter and if it deflects at all you have a interment open in the TPS

There are many things you could check that first start with pulling the codes
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: jcassity on November 03, 2012, 01:59:23 AM
And by the way you guys may not get storms out there in Tacoma because it probably rains 80% of the time but out east there are a lot of distracted people right now over the latest storm so please be patient
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 03, 2012, 02:48:41 AM
lol.. sorry guys...forgot about storm....wouldnt the tps cause lags in throttle? i have no lag...burn the tires on demand....it acts like no gas....but when you floor it it starts right up..its NOT flooding out....i know the iac is bad i have unplugged or it will idle at 2,000 rpm lol...
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 03, 2012, 08:33:15 AM
Check the TPS and go from their. If you think it is fuel delivery give it a squirt of starting FLUID. Once again the tps at full voltage pedal to the METAL is in clear flood mode. That means the injectors do not SQUIRT FUEL. If they do the TPS is not sending the correct info to the ECM. Just a thought!!!


Note i am with DAMINC. It is the weekend no power except back up generators. Thank god for my GENERATOR. Keeps the BEER COLD and goes down smooth with some chips and sandwiches. Do some testing and post back. OH YES if the DAM IAC IS BAD REPLACE THE GOD DAM THING. Just a suggestion. Thanks The DARK is making me NUTS!!! Good luck!!!
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: flylear45 on November 03, 2012, 09:54:23 AM
Codes?
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 03, 2012, 11:03:40 AM
nope no codes..check engine light is not on weird lol...
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: daminc on November 03, 2012, 05:10:33 PM
you need to do it with a test light....
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: EricCoolCats on November 03, 2012, 05:56:51 PM
Also check the fuel pressure...could be a leaking FPR or bad pump...
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: Masejoer on November 03, 2012, 06:30:02 PM
if you were 100 miles closer, I'd help you out. It's a bit of a drive at 2.5 hours though. These things are typically easy to figure out after you have some experience with the engines, but you also need some tools (gauges, multimeters, etc) to make testing easy.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 03, 2012, 06:31:38 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats;401890
Also check the fuel pressure...could be a leaking FPR or bad pump...

He claims the car runs PERFECTLY. And according to him no CEL. But still should check codes. My gut feeling is this car has a bad TPS. But experience tells me he is not getting injector pulse at CRANK. This is normally a TPS ISSUE. But without data from him we are chasing BALLOONS!!!
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: daminc on November 03, 2012, 08:36:18 PM
I put my money on a tps too.....
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: daminc on November 03, 2012, 08:37:45 PM
if it started and stalled, I would say temp sensor...
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 03, 2012, 08:49:43 PM
thanx guys yea its weird no cel and it  runs ok...im driving it 70 miles a day..im gonna replace the tps and iac on monday...i have every tool needed to work on car..ive been working on cars for over 30 yrs...i just hate efi im more of a carb guy lmao....all my past fox body cars have been carbed lol....+++++i found a complete 88 5.0 mustang motor for 250.00... can you say time to build a performance motor lmao....
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 03, 2012, 10:49:40 PM
Carbs!!!!! Do they actually still make them?????
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 04, 2012, 01:19:57 AM
Lol tom yes they do...im thinkin of carbing my bird lol....
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 04, 2012, 06:27:03 AM
Well compare them. The MAP is the power valve the TPS is the accelerator pump the ect is the CHOKE and the MASS AIR tells the ECM how much air the engine is consuming.(other than speed density) And the ECM controls the amount of fuel and the mixture with the O2 that is available to the engine when it takes in all these inputs. If you are a young man and want to build cars in the future better learn EFI  FAST. Also DIS systems are coming down the pike on many models as we speak. EFI makes much more HP and is easier to tune. Has better throttle response and all around a better way to feed the beast!!! So as the song says ( THINGS THEY ARE A CHANGING!!!)

Simply put a map is used in stead of a MAF sensor for speed density. Simple comparison.

Remember when engines had DISTRIBUTORS ??? Do they still make them also!!!
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: 86cougar on November 04, 2012, 09:09:27 AM
shad1965,
              I've been reading your thread since you posted. If I knew what I was talking about I would have tried to help you. All you guy's out east, I'm praying for you! Tom, just so you know.....I could hear you singing and I'm way over here in Arizona!!! Give a poor guy some kind of warning would you??
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: Haystack on November 04, 2012, 10:53:56 AM
Um, efi does not always make much more hp, and easier to tune depends on who the one doing the tuning is.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: jcassity on November 04, 2012, 11:17:46 AM
if you do put on a new TPS, just mounting it may not cut it.
pay attention to the way it mounts.

upon mounting and plugging in, you may not have less than a volt on the gree wire.
if so, you use a rat tail file to oblong the tps holes in the direction it needs "adjusted.
the 2.3L turbos i think have this feature fromt he factory where the mounting holes are oval.

what you do after you have filed the mounting holes is finger tight the screws down then rotat the tps body itself until you dial in less than 1vDC.

at the end of the day your shooting for the most voltage on the red wire with the trottle body wide open.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: jcassity on November 04, 2012, 11:18:59 AM
need to pull the codes though, using a paper clip and with key on engine off.
easy to do, using a 12v buzzer makes it easier.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 04, 2012, 12:13:42 PM
hey guys i replaced the tps..it fired right up..lot more reponsive lol...i will check voltage in morn after work.. now i need to find a iac.....and adjust the timing...
thnx, shad...
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 04, 2012, 11:11:31 PM
JAY the amount of voltage is not important. Other than being between app .4 and 1.0. At closed throttle. He had a bad TPS because it was shutting down the injectors during cranking. The ecm was seeing CLEAR FLOOD MODE. This is the only sensor that can do this!!! A quick voltage check between .4 & 1.0 at closed throttle and he is in the ball park.

Stacks EFI systems always makes more HP and torque than a carb. The doughters will cry foul but that is because of lack of experience with the systems. Bottom line no cars today come with carbs and the engines make almost twice the HP of their ansestors with carbs. On the 1320 it is different than on the street.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: jcassity on November 04, 2012, 11:14:55 PM
Loosen and then snugged down distributor holddown bolt

Remove the jumper on the two wire plug that's at the base of your distributor

Start the car and just your timing to 10° before top dead center

Shut the car off

Tighten your distributor holddown bolts and then reinstall the sprout shorting plug at the base of your Distributor

Following these instructions will set your timing correctly otherwise you may damage something Electronics wise
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 04, 2012, 11:16:56 PM
.I could hear you singing and I'm way over here in Arizona!!! Give a poor guy some kind of warning would you??

Totally lost for words??? What are you talking about??? If you want to pound me i am a big BOY. Please OPINE!!!
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 05, 2012, 02:24:38 AM
Damm; this car is squirrly as hell on wet pavement, posi..tranny has stage 2 shift kit lol..im gonna look for a 5.0 h.o cam to swap out with mine..then ill have to change to 5.7 firing order woo hoo. also found some headers woo hoo..i love fox cars parts are cheap lmao...
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 05, 2012, 07:08:26 AM
Quote from: shad1965;401982
Damm; this car is squirrly as hell on wet pavement, posi..tranny has stage 2 shift kit lol..im gonna look for a 5.0 h.o cam to swap out with mine..then ill have to change to 5.7 firing order woo hoo. also found some headers woo hoo..i love fox cars parts are cheap lmao...
Dude, what?
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 05, 2012, 07:54:44 AM
LOL.. doesnt the 5.0 ho camshaft use 351w firing order? i know in the 85 ho stang i had, it was using the 351w firing order because of the cam.. was from a 351 and put into a 302 hence the ho factor..
Dude, what? what does that mean? some kinda new code? lol
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: 86cougar on November 05, 2012, 08:53:43 AM
Tom,
      I'm not pounding you, just pulling your leg.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: Haystack on November 05, 2012, 02:47:44 PM
The tps should be between .49v and 1.27 I believe before it will throw a code, at idle. As long as it see's about 2.5v's over idle reading, it goes into wot. Anything from 2.5v's or higher from idle is fine, as long as it does not exceed 5v's.

Do a sweep slowly with the key on, engine off to make sure there are no dead spots. When resetting idle, all you need to do is clear codes (after writing down what they are...) unplug iac, set the idle set screw to about 600 rpm's, then plug the iac back in. If you don't have a ton of vacuum leaks and your sensors are working correctly, that is all that
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 05, 2012, 08:44:43 PM
Quote from: shad1965;401982
Damm; this car is squirrly as hell on wet pavement, posi..tranny has stage 2 shift kit lol..im gonna look for a 5.0 h.o cam to swap out with mine..then ill have to change to 5.7 firing order woo hoo. also found some headers woo hoo..i love fox cars parts are cheap lmao...

Your posts are staring to sound nonsensical. Are you ok?

BTW, the 351 is 5.8 liters, and you'll have to do more that swap the cam and firing order. woo hoo.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: 86cougar on November 05, 2012, 09:02:21 PM
I would like to move up to a 351C some day. From what I have found out I would have to change the distributor, but it seems that a lot of parts are interchangeable between my 302 and the 351C.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 05, 2012, 10:51:28 PM
Quote from: haystack;402005
the tps should be between .49v and 1.27 i believe before it will throw a code, at idle. As long as it see's about 2.5v's over idle reading, it goes into wot. Anything from 2.5v's or higher from idle is fine, as long as it does not exceed 5v's.

Do a sweep slowly with the key on, engine off to make sure there are no dead spots. When resetting idle, all you need to do is clear codes (after writing down what they are...) unplug iac, set the idle set screw to about 600 rpm's, then plug the iac back in. If you don't have a ton of vacuum leaks and your sensors are working correctly, that is all that


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 05, 2012, 10:53:35 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;401990
Tom,
      I'm not pounding you, just pulling your leg.


OK just checking!!!
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 06, 2012, 12:57:58 AM
the 351w and the 302 are exact same motor both small blocks, and windsor series except the 351 has a slightly tall deck height.all parts will interchange..yes im fine..lol this isnt my first fox car....last car was a 347 stroker 85 capri....im just not up on this efi stuff, im a old school mechanic, love my carbs lol.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: 86cougar on November 06, 2012, 01:46:00 PM
What gets me is when I check out Jeg's or Summit racing they have a lot more carbs. than fuel injection manifolds. Some of their carbs. are fuel injected. I guess it has to do with looks under the hood and that EFI really doesn't have that many parts.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: 1BadBird on November 06, 2012, 08:58:31 PM
Quote from: shad1965;402061
the 351w and the 302 are exact same motor both small blocks, and windsor series except the 351 has a slightly tall deck height.all parts will interchange..yes im fine..lol this isnt my first fox car....last car was a 347 stroker 85 capri....im just not up on this efi stuff, im a old school mechanic, love my carbs lol.
Dude.....UH......Yes the 289/302 and the 351w are from the same Windsor clan, and yes the cams, heads, timing gear sets, timing cover, water and fuel pumps will interchange as well as share the same bell housing bolt patterns (except the first 289s/260s which were 5 bolt) but that's about all that will interchange between the 351w's and 289/302 blocks.
289w = 2.287" stroke - 4.00" bore - 2.249" main bearing journal diameter
302w = 3.000"  stroke - 4.00" bore - 2.249"  main bearing journal diameter
351w = 3.500"  stroke - 4.00" bore - 3.193"  main bearing journal diameter, this has the taller deck height to accommodate the longer stroke.
So how does that translate into the being the exact same engine?
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: 86cougar on November 07, 2012, 02:55:20 PM
Personally, I was referring to dressing.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: shad1965 on November 08, 2012, 11:38:27 PM
Wow what a pain in the ass..changed my heater core, on tuesday took all day..had to completely unbolt dash to get heter box out...found it full of insulation and debris...there must have been a little friend living in there, when it was parked for awhile...changed thermostat today..loosened the distributor to set timing but its stucks , wont move..any ideas?
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 09, 2012, 05:47:04 AM
You have to shoot it with a CO2 fire extinguisher to loosen it. Try shooting some brake clean down by the base or if that is NG you need to heat the DIZZY with a torch. If it is stuck on the upper portion it will loosen up. If it is stuck lower well that is an issue. You can also heat the motor up by driving it and try twisting it with the engine VERY HOT!! This is a prime example of FORDS better IDEAS and sludge build up!!! If you choose Heat be careful and try not to melt the front manifold seal. Good Luck!! The engine must be slugged up and the DIZZY has varnish build up on it. You need to see where your timing is and if it is OK leave it alone. I have actually snapped off DIZZYS trying to loosen them!!!
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 09, 2012, 06:04:10 AM
Quote from: 86cougar;402078
What gets me is when I check out Jeg's or Summit racing they have a lot more carbs. than fuel injection manifolds. Some of their carbs. are fuel injected. I guess it has to do with looks under the hood and that EFI really doesn't have that many parts.

Their is a reason for that. They really cant make a manifold to outperform the stock EFI systems.( not set in stone but mostly true some will argue and some companies make manifolds that do make more HP. Like on the LS motors But the new LS3 intake flows better Just saying) I have dynowed many aftermarket EFI manifolds like EDELBROCKS small ford unit. The GT 40 makes more HP. If some are stuck in CARB mode you are at a disadvantage. Carbs are antiquated they do not have the drivability of FFI. Carbs are no way as tunable or do they make an engine perform at their max efficiency. I have not tuned a carbed motor in years. Excluding some DIE HARD CARB GUYS that are stuck in antiquated engines that are CARBED. Next generation will be DIS and many new engines are already their. The new LT1 is DIS and makes 468 HP. That is stock from the GENERAL!!!
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 10, 2012, 11:50:22 AM
(in my best WV drawl) Welllll I've had it with OBD-I EFI on a modded engine, my 331 is going to be carbed... Don't need no fancy dyno tunin', with just a wideband o2 gauge(that I already have), box of carb jets, and a timing light I can tune it myself...
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: jcassity on November 10, 2012, 12:33:05 PM
i think its funny when folks over here are "checkin fer far"
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2012, 12:55:31 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;402281
(in my best WV drawl) Welllll I've had it with OBD-I EFI on a modded engine, my 331 is going to be carbed... Don't need no fancy dyno tunin', with just a wideband o2 gauge(that I already have), box of carb jets, and a timing light I can tune it myself...


In my northern TONGUE i rather pound a LAP TOP for TUNING. Just saying.
Title: Hard starting..
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 10, 2012, 02:55:03 PM
Quote from: jcassity;402285
i think its funny when folks over here are "checkin fer far"

 
LOL, I've about gotten out of that one, still have tars on mah car...