Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on October 27, 2012, 11:11:48 PM
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on October 27, 2012, 11:11:48 PM
On my 87 Bird, I made a new headlight harness with relays, hoping that would improve my dim headlights. It helped a little, but not enough. The next thing I did was to ditch the 9004 bulbs in tabor of supposedly brighter 9007 ones. To try and further help the cause, I bought bulbs that were the next step below Silverstars in brightness. Since the 9007's have vertical filaments and the headlight lenses on our cars are designed for horizontal filament bulbs, the light from the 9007's is pretty unfocused. It just kind of spreads out without doing s good job of shining down the road.
My other car, which is an 88 TC has almost new headlight buckets, but I'm still not happy with it's headlight output. I'd really like to fix that. Unlike with my other car, I want to set the headlights on this car up so they're nice and bright. I'm already planning on making a headlight harness with relays for this car using healthy gauge wire, just like I made for my other car. For this car though, I'm wondering if setting it up to use H4 bulbs would be the way to go. I know the low beams on our cars are a paltry 40 watts. Aren't H4 low beams 80 watts? If they are, that seems like it would make a nice improvement over the 9004's I'm using now (I'm planning on using Hella clear bulbs, because they come so highly recommended). The 9007's I installed in my other car are only 55 watts. Wouldn't the 80W/100W H4's melt the headlight bucket (housing) though? Anyone here running H4's in their car that could give me feedback?
I'm open to any suggestions here. I really want to resolve this issue guys. I don't have any interest in installing HID's, or projectors though. Thanks in advance for any help!
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: 83TB on October 28, 2012, 12:48:41 AM
I have been reading some places where you can use some aftermarket relays off the headlight switch and have the relays send power straight to the lights from the battery, helps making them brighter from having better volts and amp draw I guess, maybe someone will chime in soon.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Trinom on October 28, 2012, 04:31:45 PM
Standard H4 light bulbs are 55W for low and 60W for hi beams.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 28, 2012, 05:56:18 PM
(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee367/T-BirdX3/photobucket-4152-1328645433497.jpg) H4 on the left, NOS OEM on the right.
Projectors put them both to shame though, see sig.........
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Aerocoupe on October 28, 2012, 08:15:12 PM
I don't think they will melt the head light fixture but the higher the wattage the hotter they are.
http://www.racinglab.com/pixtremwhitp.html
Darren
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on October 29, 2012, 01:58:14 PM
Wow! That H4 does throw off quite a bit more light than the OEM bulb. It looks like the H4 throws a good beam pattern through the OEM headlight housing too. I installed 9007 series bulbs in my other Aerobird thinking that the increased output of the 9007's would be an improvement over the OEM 9004's. Due to the vertical filament, the beam pattern was . Light just went everywhere without any kind of focus down the road. From your picture above, it looks like that wasn't a problem with the H4 you installed. Was it? I'm not looking to go with projectors at this time.
Thanks for your help.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: T-BirdX3 on October 29, 2012, 02:39:42 PM
Quote from: 88 Blackbird 5.0;401562
Wow! That H4 does throw off quite a bit more light than the OEM bulb. It looks like the H4 throws a good beam pattern through the OEM headlight housing too. I installed 9007 series bulbs in my other Aerobird thinking that the increased output of the 9007's would be an improvement over the OEM 9004's. Due to the vertical filament, the beam pattern was . Light just went everywhere without any kind of focus down the road. From your picture above, it looks like that wasn't a problem with the H4 you installed. Was it? I'm not looking to go with projectors at this time.
Thanks for your help.
I didn't use anything that was Tbird OEM in my H4 picture posted above. The output of that H4 picture came directly from the sealed beam that is posted in the picture above it. When I took that H4 shot my original plan was to install that H4 sealed beam into the OEM Bird housing, then replace the factory diffuser lenses with my clear lenses. That way I would be able to maintain the safe, legal, and useful beam output that the factory spent all of that time designing.
Headlight housings are specifically designed for specific bulbs. You can not just change the bulb to a different type and expect the output to anywhere near useful, as you found out with your 9007 experiment. Not only does the improper bulb provide you with poor lighting on the road, but it generally manages to put plenty of light into oncoming traffic's eyes.
I know you said in your OP that you weren't interested in projectors, may I ask why? I'm just curious. I spent 6 months and a couple hundred bucks trying to come up with a better option for headlights and projectors were the absolute best option I could find. I can't help but notice that most manufacturers are going to projectors, either HID or halogen, and I feel like that will be the continuing trend due to projectors superiority. (http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee367/T-BirdX3/photobucket-5761-1330057741889.jpg)
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Masejoer on October 29, 2012, 04:30:42 PM
Quote from: T-BirdX3;401564
I can't help but notice that most manufacturers are going to projectors, either HID or halogen, and I feel like that will be the continuing trend due to projectors superiority.
A lot of people buy them for the looks, even halogen ones. I'm fine with my daily driver's reflector halogen bulbs over any projectors I've seen - the projectors trap a lot of light. The HID projectors in my T-Bird are great, but very lacking in the rain. While the T-Bird wins in rain due to total output, the halogen bulbs are right up there due to the warmer color temperature and higher CRI.
I'm getting anxious about being able to try some LEDs in place of the D2S bulbs. Having a warmer color temperature, higher CRI, instant turn-on, flash to pass without shocking the ballast/bulb when it's previously off, bulb lifetime, and shorter headlight depth are all benefits I will love to see on the car. Not to mention that I can also stuff more light into there with adequate heatsinking, and LED technology in the future will allow even more with less heat output. I'm guessing we'll see closer to 200lm/W at higher temperatures with the pace of changes and the technology just around the corner. Having a simple heatspreader that I can bolt to an aluminum headlight housing would make upgrades a breeze. Now if only that person would get back to me about that CNC router I want...
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: T-BirdX3 on October 29, 2012, 05:10:53 PM
Quote from: Seek;401571
The HID projectors in my T-Bird are great, but very lacking in the rain. While the T-Bird wins in rain due to total output,
We will have to agree to disagree here. :D My experience has been the complete opposite. I have nothing but good things to say about projectors. My original thread has plenty of photos comparing the two so I won't flood this one with them.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on October 29, 2012, 05:43:54 PM
There are two reasons why I choose to not install a projector set-up. The cost of installing them and the way they look on our cars. I'm not happy with either one. They do throw light down the road though. I'll give you that.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Masejoer on October 29, 2012, 05:51:34 PM
Quote from: T-BirdX3;401577
We will have to agree to disagree here. :D My experience has been the complete opposite. I have nothing but good things to say about projectors. My original thread has plenty of photos comparing the two so I won't flood this one with them.
The stock lights do suck in our cars, there's nothing else to be said about that, but many BETTER designs have quite effective halogens. Get 14v to the halogens and a 55W bulb puts out a healthy 1400 lumens (each). The warmer color of light in FRONT of the car is similar in luminosity where it needs to be, better for visibility due to lower refraction (after all, the sky appears blue due to the scattering of blue light), but it does not have the width or evenness of projectors. Projectors lose about 1/3 of the light in the projector housing.
Half the bulb-rated luminous output, hitting 1/3 the area of the road when compared to projectors...obviously it is brighter. Projectors just look SO much nicer though, and the width of the beam CAN help in limited cirspoogestances. I'll back the tbird into the garage and get some fixed pictures of the projectors versus the stock 9004 bulbs shining outside into the wet/dry pavement (depending on weather at night) and post up in your thread. You will be surprised how mediocre the HID projectors become in comparison ;)
As for this thread, what voltage are you getting at the bulb with the lights on? How are your headlight lenses and reflector? The lights are junk if the reflectors are shot. Also if you're doing comparisons with the car off or at idle, if your alternator isn't putting out enough power, it will hurt them even more.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Masejoer on October 29, 2012, 05:55:39 PM
Quote from: 88 Blackbird 5.0;401580
There are two reasons why I choose to not install a projector set-up. The cost of installing them and the way they look on our cars. I'm not happy with either one. They do throw light down the road though. I'll give you that.
Agreed. They really need a custom single-piece headlight assembly to be fabricated to make them work on the looks. Mine looks about the same as X3's, and even if I make clear lenses for the other two lights, it will still look odd. I hope to try some initial prototyping of a single-piece headlight within the next 12 months, most likely sooner. If anything, an easier two-piece with non-fluted lenses would also be a huge improvement.
You can get the parts for fairly cheap if you look around though. The problem area is modifying the headlights, getting the projectors aligned, and cutting into the header panel.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on October 29, 2012, 05:57:18 PM
Everything is going to be optimized on the car for headlight output. I'm going to install a relay harness that sends 14.4 volts to the headlights, I'm going to use 10 gauge wire to make the harness and I'm going to ground each headlight directly. That way, I'll be able to get the optimum performance from the bulbs. The housings are mint.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: T-BirdX3 on October 29, 2012, 06:09:00 PM
Quote from: 88 Blackbird 5.0;401580
There are two reasons why I choose to not install a projector set-up. The cost of installing them and the way they look on our cars. I'm not happy with either one. They do throw light down the road though. I'll give you that.
Fair enough, I was just curious. :D
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Masejoer on October 29, 2012, 06:11:30 PM
Quote from: 88 Blackbird 5.0;401583
Everything is going to be optimized on the car for headlight output. I'm going to install a relay harness that sends 14.4 volts to the headlights, I'm going to use 10 gauge wire to make the harness and I'm going to ground each headlight directly. That way, I'll be able to get the optimum performance from the bulbs. The housings are mint.
I thought you said you already installed the relay harness? Anyway, verify that you are actually getting 14.4v at the battery and at the headlights. 10awg wire should be plenty to keep the voltage drop down (I used real 10awg copper). The biggest problem is the 9004 bulb light pattern was terrible, and these housings were designed to try to work with the light pattern that the bulbs produced. All bulbs will be pretty bad in them, giving you two hot spots in front of the vehicle. I remember well what the stock lights looked like as I had opaque ones, then cleaned up lenses, then relays, then aluminum foil was applied to the reflectors, then new headlight housings were purchased. Having the NOS lights with a fresh reflector made the biggest difference (well, beyond make the lenses clear initially). Foglights helped light up the road a bit more. With HID projection though, the foglights cannot be seen from the driver seat in anything BUT fog. Heavy fog turns the HID output into a wall of white about 3 feet in front of the vehicle. With the stock lights and foglights, the viewable distance was a whopping, like, 10 feet road but at least it didn't light up like a wall :p
I don't get that heavy of fog often though...
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Pacerized on November 01, 2012, 10:33:16 AM
My OEM headlight lenses are still clear and in very good shape. I really don't find the stock lights that bad but I can notice a difference from my newer cars today. If I just wanted to make a difference using my original housing and wiring, what would be the best bulb to buy. Just as a plug in replacement I see Xenon 100/80 bulbs for $36 per pair and Silverstar 45/65 bulbs for $32 each. If anyone has compared these, which of these would be the better bulb for our cars? Would I have to worry about additional heat damaging my factory lenses?
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 01, 2012, 11:44:14 AM
The 100/80 bulbs are not Xenon, just a cheap look alike. They run WAY too hot, and don't last very long. All you get is more heat and a different color (very slightly). Total waste of money. Same deal with Silverstars, just to a lesser degree. If you want better lights, you get what you pay for. I'm going to assume we're talking about an 87-88, and based on that assumption, your best bet is to disassemble and re-plate the housings, then polish the lenses inside and out before you reassemble. On the non-stock side of things, you can ground and polish the lenses (inside) until you've eliminated the diffusions, or get a nice pair of TbirdX3's homemade clear lenses (less work) and then either retrofit with HID projectors from here (http://"http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=237"), or disassemble a sealed-beam H4 conversion housing by removing it's lens, cutting some of the back bowl out of the stockers and CAREFULLY fixing the H4 reflector into the housing (from the inside) and I say carefully because you'll have to make sure the reflector is shining in the precise right direction relative to the housing or you'll have a crazy eyed car. Either of these are a superior solution compared to the stock lights, so how much work do you want to do and how much are you willing to spend?
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Masejoer on November 01, 2012, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;401744
Either of these are a superior solution compared to the stock lights, so how much work do you want to do and how much are you willing to spend?
Spot on. The stock lights, designed for the pretty poorly designed 9004 bulb, will never be as good as what cars come with today. You have to re-work the optics and preferably use a different bulb. Moving to a different bulb in a different housing is the only way to get any REAL improvement over good condition stock headlights (including intact reflectors). In these cars, the only choice imo is projector retrofit. There's no easy way to get the better optics of newer halogen headlight designs into these things. Keeping it simple, a decent halogen projector would require a clear lens (and look odd), cut headerpanel to fit the deeper headlight assembly, and some fabrication. The work put into this makes a true HID retrofit not much more difficult, but there's additional parts to buy and wiring to do.
You COULD also try modifying a stock housing and see what the beam looks like when using a 9007 bulb. The bulb has to be turned 90 degrees in the housing, but it's possible that you could get something decent, even if you need to add a small shield some place. Use a spare housing for this though, even if it has a damaged reflector. You don't want to ruin good headlights for a test.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 01, 2012, 01:51:01 PM
My Halogen projectors (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?33121-(New-Goodies)Need-Your-Opinion-on-Headlight-Color!(Lots-of-Pics)/page3") fit nicely. I went full custom though, which meant cutting out the back of the housings. Mine are 3" projectors, but the easy kits that drop through the existing holes are all 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" depending. I spent $40 on clear projector lenses and shrouds, other than that, I had everything just sitting around.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Pacerized on November 01, 2012, 04:07:35 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;401744
The 100/80 bulbs are not Xenon, just a cheap look alike. They run WAY too hot, and don't last very long. All you get is more heat and a different color (very slightly). Total waste of money. Same deal with Silverstars, just to a lesser degree. If you want better lights, you get what you pay for. I'm going to assume we're talking about an 87-88, and based on that assumption, your best bet is to disassemble and re-plate the housings, then polish the lenses inside and out before you reassemble. On the non-stock side of things, you can ground and polish the lenses (inside) until you've eliminated the diffusions, or get a nice pair of TbirdX3's homemade clear lenses (less work) and then either retrofit with HID projectors from here (http://"http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=237"), or disassemble a sealed-beam H4 conversion housing by removing it's lens, cutting some of the back bowl out of the stockers and CAREFULLY fixing the H4 reflector into the housing (from the inside) and I say carefully because you'll have to make sure the reflector is shining in the precise right direction relative to the housing or you'll have a crazy eyed car. Either of these are a superior solution compared to the stock lights, so how much work do you want to do and how much are you willing to spend?
Well, I'm willing to spend more money on replacement bulbs but I don't want to go to any more trouble then that. I just don't find the stock lights so bad that I could justify spending the time and money on going any further then that. If there is a replacement bulb that would offer a significant increase in lumens then I'd do that as long as it didn't damage my lenses from too much heat. I guess you're saying that there isn't.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 04, 2012, 07:51:34 PM
I believe the 87-93 Fox Mustangs also have the 9004 bulb. I installed the SilverStar's in my '93 Mustang and the light output was dramatically different. They did make the headlamp switch warmer than I cared for so I put a Bosch relay in and that took care of the problem and make the lights even brighter. IMO the SilverStars are a huge improvement over a stock bulb.
Darren
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Masejoer on November 04, 2012, 09:43:18 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;401964
I believe the 87-93 Fox Mustangs also have the 9004 bulb. I installed the SilverStar's in my '93 Mustang and the light output was dramatically different. They did make the headlamp switch warmer than I cared for so I put a Bosch relay in and that took care of the problem and make the lights even brighter. IMO the SilverStars are a huge improvement over a stock bulb.
Darren
How would relays, which supply MORE voltage to the bulb, and in turn more wattage for an incandescent, make them run cooler? I'd say that part was in your head, or other variables. The Silverstars ARE brighter as they have different ingredients to burn brighter, but they also burn hotter and burn out quicker due to this. Unless using the European silverstars though, the best bet would be to get the brightest bulbs that clear glass, which will provide more unfiltered light, yet use the same hotter burning ingredients.
People seem to like the Osram Nightbreakers, even if they do have a small blue band which will remove some light, but make it appear whiter due to the removal of some of the warmer color rays.
With any hotter burning bulb, they WILL be brighter, but they still won't look as good as newer car headlight designs, and the lifetime at 14v is somewhere in the realm of 100 hours versus closer to 1000 for a stock, or "+20%" bulb.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Trinom on November 05, 2012, 12:29:17 PM
There "old" Night breakers are no longer on the market (for two or three years I guess). You should be able to find only the Night breaker PLUS, which have extended life for about 1000 h. They shine with the same intensity as the old ones, but they don't die so quickly.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 05, 2012, 03:00:56 PM
Come on now, I said nothing about heat in my previous post but in post #5 I think I covered it which would be in total agreement with what you are saying. All I am saying is that with the Silver Stars in my Coupe the light output was higher much higher which is to be expected due to the additional wattage. I ran them briefly and noticed the heat at the head light switch which is why the installation of the relay was done. I did notice an improvement over the stock bulbs prior to the relay installation and especially after the installation of the relay. Are they short life bulbs compared to stock? Yup, no doubt about it. Do I care? Nope, not one bit. The small cost for the additional vision they provide at night is worth it to me. This is all based on my experience and I thought it was a decent information based on all the miles I drive every year.
On another note, I ditched the bulbs out of my 07 Fusion (work car) and put the Silver Stars in that car as well about three years ago and the light output is also better. One of the other guys has a 10 Fusion with the HID headlights and they are far superior but until they replace my car next year I have to make due with what I have. The Silver Stars were great and lived about two years until one died, $20 later both were replaced and that was about a year ago. The Fusion has about 176,000 miles on it which are work miles then I drive another car on my personal time so I drive quite a bit.
Darren
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Masejoer on November 05, 2012, 04:11:23 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;402007
Come on now, I said nothing about heat in my previous post but in post
Whoops, failure on my part. I missed "switch" in your post. I agree that the switch always runs hot, and of course relays remove that load. Sorry ;)
My daily driver came with Silverstars on it, which failed like a month later, and I was plenty happy to go back to a stock-type bulb (it uses an H4) since the output wasn't that much lower (the human eye and ear needs much more than twice the intensity to measure twice the brightness/loudness). Getting rid of the blue hue of the glass, it isn't as "white", but the light is still very comparable. Either way, car headlights ALWAYS suck in the rain, unless you have maybe 20,000 lumens (250W metal halide) of warm light flooding the area in front of the vehicle, but then glare becomes an issue to even you as the driver of the vehicle with all that light.
On another note, one business day later after ordering, a package from Digikey with my 3500 lumen LED is supposed to be delivered. I may have to wait for my new 50V/5A power supply to fully test it though. I haven't been happy enough with ANY car headlight I've seen to date, even the new ones that are LED-powered. We'll see what I can do.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 05, 2012, 08:51:48 PM
Quote from: Seek;402011
Whoops, failure on my part. I missed "switch" in your post. I agree that the switch always runs hot, and of course relays remove that load. Sorry ;)
My daily driver came with Silverstars on it, which failed like a month later, and I was plenty happy to go back to a stock-type bulb (it uses an H4) since the output wasn't that much lower (the human eye and ear needs much more than twice the intensity to measure twice the brightness/loudness). Getting rid of the blue hue of the glass, it isn't as "white", but the light is still very comparable. Either way, car headlights ALWAYS suck in the rain, unless you have maybe 20,000 lumens (250W metal halide) of warm light flooding the area in front of the vehicle, but then glare becomes an issue to even you as the driver of the vehicle with all that light.
On another note, one business day later after ordering, a package from Digikey with my 3500 lumen LED is supposed to be delivered. I may have to wait for my new 50V/5A power supply to fully test it though. I haven't been happy enough with ANY car headlight I've seen to date, even the new ones that are LED-powered. We'll see what I can do.
3500 lm? I want the part number of that diode/array.
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Pacerized on November 05, 2012, 09:56:50 PM
Anyone ever try the GE Nighthawk Platinum 9004? They seem to have good reviews online
Title: Are H4 Headlights That Much Better?
Post by: Masejoer on November 06, 2012, 12:18:17 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;402046
3500 lm? I want the part number of that diode/array.
BXRA-40E2200-B-00
I have to wait for my larger psu to arrive. 30V isn't enough to do much but make it glow slightly, and I don't have a driver that can handle this thing (I think). I do have a boost/buck I should look at the specs for, but I'm pretty sure it tops out around 20V, and being that's it's a 3A driver.