Technical => Engine Swapping => Topic started by: canadiancarguy on October 21, 2012, 10:17:04 PM
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: canadiancarguy on October 21, 2012, 10:17:04 PM
OK I know the 93 tbird is not a Fox body car, but I am getting conflicting information about this!! I have a C6 that came with the 351C, and I can see it is a big block bolt pattern for the transmission so a C4 or aod WILL NOT bolt onto it, but I got some guy who I am trying to order parts from says it WILL bolt on. I think he has his windsors and clevelands mixed up! Now I gotta be missing something here, is there some sort of bell housing adapter I don't know about?? Also I know I need a Lokar kickdown cable, but else is needed for this swap? What flexplate and torque converter do I need? Also are there specific motor mounts needed?
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: canadiancarguy on October 21, 2012, 10:18:16 PM
Sorry if I am asking dumb questions, but I am getting tired of ordering parts that don't fit or work for what I am doing!!!
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on October 21, 2012, 10:51:51 PM
If it's a 351C it WILL fit, if it's a 351M, it will NOT fit...
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: canadiancarguy on October 21, 2012, 11:11:44 PM
I know it will fit in there, but will it bolt onto an AOD? The aods I have won't bolt on, is there a different bell housing I don't know about?
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: 1BadBird on October 21, 2012, 11:14:21 PM
It sounds more like you have the 351/400M which uses the 429/460 bellhousing bolt pattern. What are the AODs out of??
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Beau on October 22, 2012, 12:17:30 AM
As Tom mentioned, an AOD will bolt to a 351c/w, but NOT to a 351m/400. They have the "new" big block pattern, as stated by 1BadBird which is same as the 385 series. (429/460)
If you have a 351m/400 already, I'd s that idea and just go on to the 460. There's plenty of aftermarket support for them in a Fox application, and as far as mounts go, Fox 460 mounts will very likely work in an MN12 with little or no modding. I don't have an idea if a C4 or 6 will fit in the tunnel on one of the newer cars though.
If you're stuck on a Cleveland headed SBF, how about a 351 "Clevor"? Some aussie Cleveland heads on the Windsor block will get you rolling, plus you can still run an AOD, although I'd probably save my money and get a newer electronic tranny and a standalone controller...
Just a thought. I've kicked this idea around for a year or so before deciding to go with a 460 for my Stang for the next project.
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: T-BirdX3 on October 22, 2012, 08:13:58 AM
Quote from: canadiancarguy;400934
351C, and I can see it is a big block bolt pattern for the transmission ?
The 351C does not have the big block pattern. The 351C has the same bolt pattern that the 289, 302, & 351W have.
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: canadiancarguy on October 22, 2012, 08:27:42 AM
Ok, so I must have 351M then. That explains a lot! I was under the understanding that the cleveland was a "Big block" bolt pattern and I had to find a specific bell housing for that application. All my aods are out of 5.0 cars. I got this motor fresh off rebuild never been fired sitting on an engine stand. Would kinda be a waste to ditch it, kinda rare up in these parts. I have a 427 and 4V 429 sitting here in parts as well so no point going 460 until I use those in something.
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: T-BirdX3 on October 22, 2012, 10:04:06 AM
If it has eight valve cover bolts and the big block bolt pattern it is one of the "M" engines. The only way I know to tell the 351m from the 400m is the thickness of the harmonic balancer. The 400 has a fairly thick harmonic balancer. IMHO the 351m it's nothing but a boat anchor. The 400 is a little better, but not much, it at least makes a decent work truck engine.
I'm surprised you have a 427 those are fairly rare.......
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Fordracer08 on October 22, 2012, 12:38:45 PM
A 351C uses the same engine mounts as any other small block Windsor does. The 351M/400 uses unique motor mounts that look similar to 429/460 mounts. A 351M/400 has a rib running fore and aft on top of the timing chain area to the drivers side of the distributor. A 351C does not have this rib. If putting a 351C on 5.0 mounts you will find you usually need to space the engine 1/2" to 5/8" for the oil pan to clear the crossmember This is due to the placement of the oil pump pick-up. The pan can only be clearanced so much. This usually requires a hole to be cut in the hood for carb/air cleaner clearance. I have a 351C and C4 in a 93 Mustang. I am not sure of all the specifics with a 93 T-Bird. The 429 would make a good candidate for swapping into the T-Bird. Yeah, the 427 is a rare piece these days.
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: canadiancarguy on October 22, 2012, 07:19:40 PM
It is a reverse rotation 427 out of a boat, there were quite a few of em up here at one time...
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Beau on October 22, 2012, 08:07:54 PM
Quote from: T-BirdX3;400969
IMHO the 351m it's nothing but a boat anchor. The 400 is a little better, but not much, it at least makes a decent work truck engine.
Most Ford folk will agree that they're boat anchors, but fact is, after some mods they're pretty decent powerplants.
Most folks are ignorant of the fact that they were designed as low speed torque monsters, and try to run them fast like a SBF, and they usually will blow up. A good carb, cam, and intake and headers, and they'll make great power across the band. I'm in the minority here, but I'd love a '77 Hi boy truck with one. And if it ever did go out, a 460 will bolt right in it's place, so there's a plus as well.
Of course, a buddy had such a truck, and after the third M engine, he put a 390 in it lol. Hard to beat FE power.
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Fordracer08 on October 22, 2012, 08:58:42 PM
A 400 can be made to run pretty good. I had a 400 in my 77 F-150 4X4 and did a few mods to it and it was a stump puller. It was great for pulling my car trailer. A friend of mine and myself have both run a 400 in dirt track street stocks. We both used 351C 4V heads which the 400 cubes can use. You can spin them over 6500 rpm if you prep them right.
A 390 is a good torquey truck engine too.
A 427 reverse rotation engine marine engine? That"s cool! I would bet that is a rare piece today too.
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: hwy73 on October 23, 2012, 12:08:29 AM
Jumping in to stick up for the 400 too. I had a 73 full-size Country Sedan wagon with a 400 (and they were all 2 barrels from the factory) that pulled like a train. I put duals on it so it could breathe, bumped the timing and ran "premium" fuel so it wouldn't ping and it would surprise many an un-suspecting folk how it would launch that nearly 5000 lb tank. Got an old-time "Ford" wrench to massage the Motorcraft 2150 so it would still pass the "sniffer" emissions tests of the day. And there was no 400"M". The 351-M was a destroked 400 built to use less gas, have less emmissions and use up the parts the factory had left over as the "big" engines were phased out.
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Pro SC on October 24, 2012, 06:13:38 PM
I remembered reading this article a few years ago when i came across your thread. Not hard to make a bad boy m motor at all. Check it out, you have options. http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0911_installing_a_400m_small_block_into_a_351_cleveland_stroker_engine/viewall.html
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Sinista Chicken on October 24, 2012, 11:07:26 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;401017
Most Ford folk will agree that they're boat anchors, but fact is, after some mods they're pretty decent powerplants.
Most folks are ignorant of the fact that they were designed as low speed torque monsters, and try to run them fast like a SBF, and they usually will blow up. A good carb, cam, and intake and headers, and they'll make great power across the band. I'm in the minority here, but I'd love a '77 Hi boy truck with one. And if it ever did go out, a 460 will bolt right in it's place, so there's a plus as well.
Of course, a buddy had such a truck, and after the third M engine, he put a 390 in it lol. Hard to beat FE power.
I must stick up for these motors too, my 77 F-150 has a 351M and it revs like a D8 cat and pulls like one too. I have to get on it to hit 1500 rpm in normal city driving. I have seen them built into monsters with a little work. they don't deserve the bad rep they have. it's just most people would rather just swap a 460 in then to put money into a 351m/400
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Beau on October 24, 2012, 11:23:45 PM
There's a guy here who's putting a an M or 400 into his TC. He occasionally updates his work in his build thread of agonzing intrigue... ;) "JustHavi" is his screename
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Aerocoupe on October 28, 2012, 08:23:15 PM
The MN12 cars have less hood clearance than the Fox cars and the tunnel is not very friendly to the large OD auto's. I had a 95 for about two years and it was a great car but to mod it was going to be pricey so I sold it and moved on.
Darren
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: canadiancarguy on October 28, 2012, 11:11:16 PM
That is why I am trading the 351m with C6 for a "Real" Cleveland! It is also off a fresh rebuild minus intake manifold and the heads aren't tightened down. I will probably have to replace the valvesprings cause the thing sat for so long, also missing accessories, but I like the march serpentine setup, so it don't bother me too much. I would like to find a true dual quad high rise intake manifold for it, those seem to be getting harder to find these days. Yet another project that will hit the back burner until I get some parts....
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Sick88Tbird on October 30, 2012, 09:10:55 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;401508
The MN12 cars have less hood clearance than the Fox cars and the tunnel is not very friendly to the large OD auto's. I had a 95 for about two years and it was a great car but to mod it was going to be pricey so I sold it and moved on.
Darren
Best decision ever....I had a '90 3.8 car and thought about modding it...then sent it to the crusher instead...like you said lower hood clearance, small tunnel...and HUGE strut towers that seem to consume any free space that would be available otherwise.
Title: 4V 351C into an 93 Tbird with aod?
Post by: Pro SC on November 16, 2012, 09:25:08 PM
I built a 94sc a couple of years ago. It was going to be parted out as the 3.8 had given up ghost and i had a nice 5.0 gt 40 heads, e cam, 94 cobra intake 3.73 gears with a 4r70w trans. No probs with tunnel room as that trans comes stock in those. I used a 94 sn-95 auto pcm and the car was a nice driver. Parts are hard to find but if you take your time and shop around you can build one for a reasonable cost. Headers will be a problem for you unless you do a steering mod. There is a forum for the mn-12 birds with lots of info on those cars, i would reccomend you do your homework first before you get too involved with your project. Knowledge will help you save money and do it right.