Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 17, 2012, 08:41:21 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 17, 2012, 08:41:21 PM
Well, this is the third time I have replaced the intake manifold gasket and I'm still getting coolant in the oil. First try the I used the wrong RTV. second time I only used a little on the valley gaps (dry otherwise) and this last time I put a little Permatex ultra blue around the coolant ports on both sides of the gasket. This last time I also put four 3" all thread in the four corners to make sure it guided the manifold straight down. I don't think I could have a cracked head, I haven't even ran it much since I started working on it. Maybe a warped manifold? I think I'll run a straight edge along it this time and see if I can see anything. If that's my problem do I get it milled?
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: vinnietbird on October 17, 2012, 08:46:11 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on October 17, 2012, 08:46:11 PM
What engine?
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 17, 2012, 08:47:28 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 17, 2012, 08:47:28 PM
Sorry,
1986 cougar 5.0 engine w/FI.
1986 cougar 5.0 engine w/FI.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: vinnietbird on October 17, 2012, 09:15:38 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on October 17, 2012, 09:15:38 PM
Are all of the bolts torqued? Did you tighten them in the right sequence? Did you let the sealant set up a bit before running it? Are you using quality gaskets?
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 17, 2012, 09:21:10 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 17, 2012, 09:21:10 PM
All the bolts were torqued at 7 lbs., 15 lbs. then last 24 lbs. in the sequence according to my manual. I did not try to start the car until the next day (about 18 hours later). I've only used fel-pro gaskets.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 88turbo on October 17, 2012, 10:15:31 PM
Post by: 88turbo on October 17, 2012, 10:15:31 PM
have you ran a compression test to see if you might have a blown head gasket?
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 17, 2012, 10:35:54 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 17, 2012, 10:35:54 PM
Good idea! That's one thing I can do without running the engine. Wouldn't that have been a problem before I started to work on it? Would having two dead fuel injectors and the rest dirty really add enough pressure to take out a head gasket? I guess if they are 26 years old, anything is possible. Thanks!
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 88turbo on October 17, 2012, 10:58:26 PM
Post by: 88turbo on October 17, 2012, 10:58:26 PM
its one more thing that could put coolant in the oil and easy enough to check.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Crazy88 on October 17, 2012, 11:14:48 PM
Post by: Crazy88 on October 17, 2012, 11:14:48 PM
I am glad that you used dowel pins (made of allthread) to locate the manifold. It makes it a piece of cake to install. However, all felpro gaskets are to go on dry, with the exception of cork valve cover gaskets, but even then, the adhesive is just to hold the gasket in place and not used in an attempt to seal anything, because the cork can easily do that all by itself. The RTV should ONLY go in the corners of the front and rear seals at the intersection of the heads and the block. Only then, do you install the front and rear seals and then the intake. I didn't take pictures when I assembled the 5.0l in Dad's Exploder, but no leaks and it fired right up the first try.
You said that you used felpro gaskets, does that include the silicone front and rear seals? If so, these should also go on dry, with the exception of the ends being set into the bead of RTV(oil, gas, coolant resistant) at the corners. Here is a picture of what I am talking about.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img203/5928/midmodified.jpg)
I also noted the location tabs that intersect with the head gasket tabs. I seriously doubt that the manifold is warped, though I suppose anything is possible. More likely is blown head gasket or cracked head. That flourescent kit I was telling you about sure would come in handy right about now, eh?
You said that you used felpro gaskets, does that include the silicone front and rear seals? If so, these should also go on dry, with the exception of the ends being set into the bead of RTV(oil, gas, coolant resistant) at the corners. Here is a picture of what I am talking about.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img203/5928/midmodified.jpg)
I also noted the location tabs that intersect with the head gasket tabs. I seriously doubt that the manifold is warped, though I suppose anything is possible. More likely is blown head gasket or cracked head. That flourescent kit I was telling you about sure would come in handy right about now, eh?
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 18, 2012, 12:18:30 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 18, 2012, 12:18:30 AM
Quote from: Crazy88;400694
I am glad that you used dowel pins (made of allthread) to locate the manifold. It makes it a piece of cake to install. However, all felpro gaskets are to go on dry, with the exception of cork valve cover gaskets, but even then, the adhesive is just to hold the gasket in place and not used in an attempt to seal anything, because the cork can easily do that all by itself. The RTV should ONLY go in the corners of the front and rear seals at the intersection of the heads and the block. Only then, do you install the front and rear seals and then the intake. I didn't take pictures when I assembled the 5.0l in Dad's Exploder, but no leaks and it fired right up the first try.
You said that you used felpro gaskets, does that include the silicone front and rear seals? If so, these should also go on dry, with the exception of the ends being set into the bead of RTV(oil, gas, coolant resistant) at the corners. Here is a picture of what I am talking about.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img203/5928/midmodified.jpg)
I also noted the location tabs that intersect with the head gasket tabs. I seriously doubt that the manifold is warped, though I suppose anything is possible. More likely is blown head gasket or cracked head. That flourescent kit I was telling you about sure would come in handy right about now, eh?
This is how I did my intake when I swapped on Edelbrock Performer heads this spring. The alignment rods help A LOT. I just used some bolts I cut the heads off of instead of all thread. I used the Felpro MS95952 intake gasket set for EFI GT40 intakes. It has graphite/steel gaskets and the blue rubber end seals. I just put the gaskets on dry, put a strip of Ultra Black RTV in the corners, put the end seals on, put another strip of Ultra Black on the corners, lowered the manifold on, and the torqued it to spec in three steps. On the final torque step keeping going around till the bolts stop moving. I had to go around my lower intake 4 times at the final torque spec till all the bolts stopped moving. I fired the engine the same day I put the manifold on (about 6 hours after doing it) and it was fine. No leaks no problems.
Also a FYI on the alignment rods: the thread is the same as the thread in the bolt holes for the upper intake manifold. You can use them as alignment studs there to keep the upper to lower intake gasket from moving around.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Crazy88 on October 18, 2012, 12:39:10 AM
Post by: Crazy88 on October 18, 2012, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;400699
I just used some bolts I cut the heads off of instead of all thread.
I used allthread since it was $1.34 for two feet of it and was more than enough to make my own set of 3" studs.
On the final torque step keeping going around till the bolts stop moving. I had to go around my lower intake 4 times at the final torque spec till all the bolts stopped moving.[/QUOTE]
I use a 'click' type torquewrench and I click once, back off just a bit and click the second time. I never, ever try to get the bolt to stop turning, as it is entirely possible that stretched bolts can continue to turn and suddenly snap... making for a really bad day...
Quote from: thunderjet302;400699
I fired the engine the same day I put the manifold on (about 6 hours after doing it) and it was fine. No leaks no problems.
I actually waited until the next morning, but that was only due to the extra reassembly necessary for the engine swap.
Quote from: thunderjet302;400699
Also a FYI on the alignment rods: the thread is the same as the thread in the bolt holes for the upper intake manifold. You can use them as alignment studs there to keep the upper to lower intake gasket from moving around.
I knew that, but it is a good tip, if you can use it. On the Exploder, you can't do it due to the way that the upper manifold nestles in just under the cowl.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 18, 2012, 01:03:46 AM
Post by: 86cougar on October 18, 2012, 01:03:46 AM
I did the intake gasket just like you said the first and second time. I would be willing to bet it's either a cracked head or a blown head gasket. Hopefully, just the gasket. I need to check out the heads and make sure they are alright. Gives me an excuse to clean them up as well. I guess I will be adjusting the valves, been a while since I've done that. I might polish up the valves also being they will be available. If I can get them to not leak with a little elbow grease, why not. Looks like shop class is off to another chapter. I can't wait to see what I find!
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 18, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 18, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
I install studs and leave them in!!!! This also holds the side gaskets nicely in all the hole positions.Then i use a flat washer with a split washer then a nut. Use a stud with course threads on one side and fine on the other . This way you get more consistent clamping. No need for the alignment studs as you already covered that part with studs installed permanently. I personally never use the front and rear gaskets on the block to manifold seal. A thick bead of silicone is the ticket for that. I think i invented it as i have been doing it since i was 15. Not only on FORDS. But all other engines that have this setup. It works much better. 88 is correct no silicone on the side gaskets. Fel Pro does not recommend it. Just a thought
Note make sure the manifold gasket is not slipping down. Normally i use HIGH TACK to hold them in position and that works great. I know the tabs are their for that. But sometimes they dont work correctly are are missing on an old engine.
Note make sure the manifold gasket is not slipping down. Normally i use HIGH TACK to hold them in position and that works great. I know the tabs are their for that. But sometimes they dont work correctly are are missing on an old engine.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 18, 2012, 07:30:10 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 18, 2012, 07:30:10 AM
Have you spent any time looking at the timing cover?
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 18, 2012, 10:44:37 AM
Post by: 86cougar on October 18, 2012, 10:44:37 AM
Tom,
What I did was after I put in the all thread, I put all the other bolts in place (just snug), then I took out the all thread and replaced them with the original bolts. Every time I have taken the manifold back off the gasket has been right where it should be (under the tabs and no movement). I think I'll try the bead on the front and rear of the manifold next time. I did not put any RTV on the end gaskets other than the top four small cracks. I also took my time the last two times I replaced the gasket and I was very cautious, that's why I would bet something else is going on.
TFYK,
Honestly, no the timing gasket never crossed my mind. I take it the only way to check it is to replace it? I don't see any leakage from it. I will be taking my heads off today and hopefully I will know more.
Lately, I've been buying stock in that liquid gold, five quarts at a time. If I find out the head gaskets are shot, I will put the intake back on dry except for the valley cracks. Either way the intake and head gaskets are going to be replaced. Good news is that the first start up the car sounds solid and runs smooth.... then comes the smoke.
What I did was after I put in the all thread, I put all the other bolts in place (just snug), then I took out the all thread and replaced them with the original bolts. Every time I have taken the manifold back off the gasket has been right where it should be (under the tabs and no movement). I think I'll try the bead on the front and rear of the manifold next time. I did not put any RTV on the end gaskets other than the top four small cracks. I also took my time the last two times I replaced the gasket and I was very cautious, that's why I would bet something else is going on.
TFYK,
Honestly, no the timing gasket never crossed my mind. I take it the only way to check it is to replace it? I don't see any leakage from it. I will be taking my heads off today and hopefully I will know more.
Lately, I've been buying stock in that liquid gold, five quarts at a time. If I find out the head gaskets are shot, I will put the intake back on dry except for the valley cracks. Either way the intake and head gaskets are going to be replaced. Good news is that the first start up the car sounds solid and runs smooth.... then comes the smoke.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 18, 2012, 10:59:30 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 18, 2012, 10:59:30 AM
I've had a quick look at mine since earlier and I would say nevermind on the timing cover. coolant runs external to the cover, unless the cover is broken in some way (unlikely).
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 18, 2012, 05:09:34 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 18, 2012, 05:09:34 PM
Well, I now have the passenger side head off. The cylinders were full of coolant (surprise!) and the head gasket (they make these at "toys are us"??) anyway, what was rubber is now about 80% gone, and if it is there it is thinner than paint and all messed up. Most of the ports were half/all plugged up. and of course it was smashed, smashed, smashed. I will probably clean out the ports in the block even though it means that I will have to take the oil pan off again to clean it out. I will probably get slammed for this, but would it be alright to flush the oil pan and block out with a hose and let it drain/dry over night with the heads off? Then I would be able to leave the oil pan on...just asking. It's not a big deal. Thanks!
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: vinnietbird on October 18, 2012, 05:23:04 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on October 18, 2012, 05:23:04 PM
Water causes rust......immediately.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 18, 2012, 05:34:07 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 18, 2012, 05:34:07 PM
Yep, I wiped out the cylinders.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Crazy88 on October 18, 2012, 11:12:30 PM
Post by: Crazy88 on October 18, 2012, 11:12:30 PM
I'd probably use a vacuum to clean out the ports, rather than soap and water. Some of those ports are coolant and some are oil. But, even the oil passages don't necessarily all drop right back into the oil pan. I guess what I am saying is that gasket debris can wreak havock in the futuer by clogging up the cooling system, blocking the pickup screen, clogging a coolant or oil passage within the block itself... nothing good can come from that scenario. Use a vacuum (shop vacs come in handy, right?) and carefully remove the debris from the ports using something like a small ser, razor blade or even a small flat head screwdriver, being careful NOT to scratch the gasket surface itself. I use a 3M Roloc (http://"http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRM-5539/") Rotary surfacing pad (http://"http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRM-7481/")(Maroon) and low speed with the vacuum right along side of it picking up the loose debris. One the gasket surfaces and ports are all cleaned up, on both the block and the heads, then scrub the gasket surfaces with acetone or paint thinner to remove ANY residual oil, anti-freeze, etc. Then put the head gaskets on dry, paying attention to the embossed directions, such as "this side up", etc. I recommend Felpro. You might also consider the investment in new head bolts, ARP being my recommendation.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Beau on October 19, 2012, 12:00:40 AM
Post by: Beau on October 19, 2012, 12:00:40 AM
Quote from: 86cougar;400738
I will probably get slammed for this, but would it be alright to flush the oil pan and block out with a hose and let it drain/dry over night with the heads off? Then I would be able to leave the oil pan on...just asking. It's not a big deal. Thanks!
Would it be alright to take a shiznit on your pillow and leave it over night, with the pillowcase off? ;)
(horrible buttstuffogy, but it's all I could come up with on short notice lol)
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 19, 2012, 05:44:35 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 19, 2012, 05:44:35 AM
I hate to say this but you need to remove that engine and either rebuild it or replace it with a good one. Just a thought!!!
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 10:29:34 AM
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 10:29:34 AM
Crazy88,
Thanks for all the good information. I took the head and removed the valves and springs and cleaned it up. I didn't find much build up on the valves as I expected to. I'm only using a razor blade for sing the gasket surfaces.
TBS302,
I knew what the answer would be and vinniebird said exactly what I was thinking. Let's see.... no stool on my pillow, and no stool in my engine block (lol). Gotcha!
Tom,
You don't have to feel bad about telling me that my engine needs to be rebuilt, I know. I looked in my engine compartment and it's getting empty. What I'm thinking about is rebuilding it myself. Have all the machining done, buy new parts and I'll put it together. Problem is with emissions, I have to stay with a stock engine and this engine is rated at about 150 hp.? If I tinker with it and just get it running I have more time do my homework. Now I'm thinking that even if I drop in a 351w I will do the same with it, but if I have to keep it stock at least I will have some h/p.
Thanks for all the good information. I took the head and removed the valves and springs and cleaned it up. I didn't find much build up on the valves as I expected to. I'm only using a razor blade for sing the gasket surfaces.
TBS302,
I knew what the answer would be and vinniebird said exactly what I was thinking. Let's see.... no stool on my pillow, and no stool in my engine block (lol). Gotcha!
Tom,
You don't have to feel bad about telling me that my engine needs to be rebuilt, I know. I looked in my engine compartment and it's getting empty. What I'm thinking about is rebuilding it myself. Have all the machining done, buy new parts and I'll put it together. Problem is with emissions, I have to stay with a stock engine and this engine is rated at about 150 hp.? If I tinker with it and just get it running I have more time do my homework. Now I'm thinking that even if I drop in a 351w I will do the same with it, but if I have to keep it stock at least I will have some h/p.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 88turbo on October 19, 2012, 12:11:57 PM
Post by: 88turbo on October 19, 2012, 12:11:57 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;400738
Well, I now have the passenger side head off. The cylinders were full of coolant (surprise!) and the head gasket (they make these at "toys are us"??) anyway, what was rubber is now about 80% gone, and if it is there it is thinner than paint and all messed up. Most of the ports were half/all plugged up. and of course it was smashed, smashed, smashed. I will probably clean out the ports in the block even though it means that I will have to take the oil pan off again to clean it out. I will probably get slammed for this, but would it be alright to flush the oil pan and block out with a hose and let it drain/dry over night with the heads off? Then I would be able to leave the oil pan on...just asking. It's not a big deal. Thanks!
Looks like I nailed this one :-)
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 12:40:01 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 12:40:01 PM
Well, I just got my new Fel-pro gaskets. I'm wondering now that the coolant ports are clean, new radiator, thermostat, that now it has coolant pressure where it hasn't had it for years, if it blew out some gaskets? I going to concentrate on getting everything real clean, now I have the Permatex "ultra blue" I'm going to put everything back together dry. If it don't work this time, I'm going to start sending parts to the machinist.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 19, 2012, 03:04:19 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 19, 2012, 03:04:19 PM
THERE IS ONLY 1 USE FOR RTV IN A HEADGASKET JOB AND YOU DON'T USE BLUE. Blue is not oil resistant, it will swell and leak. Use black, in a 1/4"x 3/4" bead at the corners where the intake front and back seals meet the head, place the seals down, and then do it again over top of the end seals. EVERYPLACE ELSE IS DRY. Using RTV where it doesn't belong does not prevent leaks, it creates them. It you removed the timing cover, use a small blob at the corner where the oil pan meets the block before you put the cover back on. NO PLACE ELSE. We have an engine rebuilder here in town whose engines come in to OUR shop packed full of orange RTV. We can't make them stop, their poor customers are paying for the same work twice because those retards don't know how to use RTV.
So that I am very clear, see this pic:
So that I am very clear, see this pic:
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 04:40:18 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 04:40:18 PM
TFYK,
Well it sounds like the "blue" is no different that the red that I used. The swelling and leaking is exactly what the "red" did. That sure would explain why I can't get the gasket to work. TFYK, I only put the RTV across the front and rear seal on top, about a 1/2" bead, no where else, but I used the "red". The last time I put the "blue" around the water jackets. What good is RTV if it's not oil resistant? This last time I do it dry except on the four corners of the valley, I use "black" RTV. Is it Permatex "black"? Thanks!
Well it sounds like the "blue" is no different that the red that I used. The swelling and leaking is exactly what the "red" did. That sure would explain why I can't get the gasket to work. TFYK, I only put the RTV across the front and rear seal on top, about a 1/2" bead, no where else, but I used the "red". The last time I put the "blue" around the water jackets. What good is RTV if it's not oil resistant? This last time I do it dry except on the four corners of the valley, I use "black" RTV. Is it Permatex "black"? Thanks!
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 19, 2012, 05:54:01 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 19, 2012, 05:54:01 PM
Blue RTV is suitable only for coolant. You can use it on things like water pumps and thermostat housings. Red is good for exhaust since it's temp tolerance is much much higher. I say you can use it in exhaust, and I have once or twice, but generally even though I can, I don't. I like a good gasket better. I'd only use RTV in exhaust if the s were really rusted badly but not to the point where I'd cut them out. Even then, I'd be more inclined to use ler cement. Black is your general good all around RTV, it's temp tolerance is high, it's oil resistant, it's soft but not squishy (like blue and especially orange), and it doesn't damage oxygen sensors. Then you have Godzilla, grey RTV. Grey is much harder and stronger when cured than any of the others, although not quite as heat resistant as black. Grey is good for hot high vibration sealing like diesel engines and transaxle cases along with split seams on transfer cases. I also like grey for differential covers (a good exception to that is non-integrated carrier diffs like a Ford 9", they like a dry gasket). When we break seals with grey RTV, we commonly have to use large prybars or mallets or even hammer and chisel (only when we're not trying to reuse the weaker part ex: stamped oil pan). There's your rundown on common RTV's and their uses. Generally almost all gaskets are meant to work best when installed dry. There are exceptions, such as where the OEM used RTV in place of a gasket, but you have to keep in mind that they use a robot to install it, so less is more.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 06:22:33 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 06:22:33 PM
TFYK,
So, I just noticed that you said put RTV on both the top and bottom of the end seals. I only put it on the top. Thanks,for the explanation of RTV! That's what really helps me out. I've learned a lot about my car these last few months! I'm having fun doing it too! I better get back to work.
So, I just noticed that you said put RTV on both the top and bottom of the end seals. I only put it on the top. Thanks,for the explanation of RTV! That's what really helps me out. I've learned a lot about my car these last few months! I'm having fun doing it too! I better get back to work.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Sick88Tbird on October 19, 2012, 08:38:57 PM
Post by: Sick88Tbird on October 19, 2012, 08:38:57 PM
Grey is really the way to go...it's pretty much all we use and it works on everything. I ALWAYS put a skim coat around the water jacket ports on the heads, install gasket and another skim coat...and when I say skim coat, I mean you can see through it...it's not uncommon to pull and intake and find that the bolts closest to the coolant passages are almost rotten in half and on high mileage engines, you can often times get little pits in the heads/intake around the coolant jackets even if they weren't an evident leak. A skim coat around this area with the Grey rtv is the best way to go...I've been doing it for years and it's never failed me...some guys get nuts with gasket prep and install and all have their own weird little things that they swear is the ONLY right way. An engine builder on corral forums said the only way to install any gasket was on a perfectly prepped surface using only a razor blade, never any rotor tool and use a little assembly lube on the gaskets....yeah, they come off nice when you pull it apart, but you risk a leak.
An example of how good Grey RTV is...a friend was rebuilding a '94 LT1 and I went over to help him out, the head gaskets went and sucked coolant into the cylinder and during compression stroke acted as a water jet on the heads...they were "repaired"(welded and machined) and during install I found a few considerable pits still from a poor weld job...we filled them with Grey RTV and a skim coat around the affected area and installed...this is NOT the correct way to do it, BUT, it's held up great and is daily driven...2yrs and going strong. Personally I would told the machinist to piss off and fix them right before I handed my money over.
Good luck,
Don
An example of how good Grey RTV is...a friend was rebuilding a '94 LT1 and I went over to help him out, the head gaskets went and sucked coolant into the cylinder and during compression stroke acted as a water jet on the heads...they were "repaired"(welded and machined) and during install I found a few considerable pits still from a poor weld job...we filled them with Grey RTV and a skim coat around the affected area and installed...this is NOT the correct way to do it, BUT, it's held up great and is daily driven...2yrs and going strong. Personally I would told the machinist to piss off and fix them right before I handed my money over.
Good luck,
Don
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 09:25:47 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 19, 2012, 09:25:47 PM
S88tb,
Ok, I think I've gotten about every RTV suggested to me now. I think the only thing left is welding the head and manifold together (lol). Really, I like it when I get all these different opinions with reasons for it backing it up. Truthfully every thing I have used has just washed away. When TFYK explained the differences of RTV, I did wonder about the gray. I need something that's going to stay where I put it. Maybe TFYK will chime in and give his thought's on your suggestion. When he said that it would take a prey bar to get it off, I thought that sounds good to me. So far, for what I'm dealing with, (pitting) I like your suggestion. Oh! I unplugged (grease) another port (heat tube?) that is on the back, top side of the passenger head (right over the freeze plug). I don't even see it listed in my manual. Next??
Ok, I think I've gotten about every RTV suggested to me now. I think the only thing left is welding the head and manifold together (lol). Really, I like it when I get all these different opinions with reasons for it backing it up. Truthfully every thing I have used has just washed away. When TFYK explained the differences of RTV, I did wonder about the gray. I need something that's going to stay where I put it. Maybe TFYK will chime in and give his thought's on your suggestion. When he said that it would take a prey bar to get it off, I thought that sounds good to me. So far, for what I'm dealing with, (pitting) I like your suggestion. Oh! I unplugged (grease) another port (heat tube?) that is on the back, top side of the passenger head (right over the freeze plug). I don't even see it listed in my manual. Next??
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 19, 2012, 10:37:23 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 19, 2012, 10:37:23 PM
The gasket should conform enough to deal with some small pitting, but if your heads are that rotten throw them away and get some different ones. Have you had them to the machine shop for inspection, cleaning and resurfacing? It costs less than you might think and there's nothing as nice as clean parts and nice surfaces.
Your 86 SO motor probably won't take E7's or GT40's without flycut pistons, but there are tons of good stockers out there if things are that bad. You can use grey if you want, but it's not like you're running a continuous seal with it, you're just sealing the corners. This is not an application where you need what grey has to offer. And the bolts will keep the intake where you put it. That's not RTV's job. The ports on the back of the heads are for air injection I think. They don't affect the way it runs.
Sick, your buddy is right you should only ever have to clean the gasket surface with a razor blade. Anything more harsh risks disrupting the sealing surface, especially with aluminum. If it's ever so bad you feel like grabbing a power tool, reach for some chemical gasket remover and then go back to the razor blade. Cast iron is fairly forgiving, but don't risk shooting yourself in the foot.
Your 86 SO motor probably won't take E7's or GT40's without flycut pistons, but there are tons of good stockers out there if things are that bad. You can use grey if you want, but it's not like you're running a continuous seal with it, you're just sealing the corners. This is not an application where you need what grey has to offer. And the bolts will keep the intake where you put it. That's not RTV's job. The ports on the back of the heads are for air injection I think. They don't affect the way it runs.
Sick, your buddy is right you should only ever have to clean the gasket surface with a razor blade. Anything more harsh risks disrupting the sealing surface, especially with aluminum. If it's ever so bad you feel like grabbing a power tool, reach for some chemical gasket remover and then go back to the razor blade. Cast iron is fairly forgiving, but don't risk shooting yourself in the foot.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 20, 2012, 11:03:10 AM
Post by: 86cougar on October 20, 2012, 11:03:10 AM
TFYK,
Thanks again! The pitting really is not that bad. About 1/8" around the coolant ports. I'm replacing the head gaskets also with FEL-PRO just to be safe. I've only taken the passenger side head off for now. The head looks good, no cracks. I spent yesterday cleaning it up and I should be finished with it today and I can paint it. For as old as it is there really is very little build up in the head. Other than oil saturated, it's pretty clean. So, what I've been told is I should wipe it off with acetone?
Thanks again! The pitting really is not that bad. About 1/8" around the coolant ports. I'm replacing the head gaskets also with FEL-PRO just to be safe. I've only taken the passenger side head off for now. The head looks good, no cracks. I spent yesterday cleaning it up and I should be finished with it today and I can paint it. For as old as it is there really is very little build up in the head. Other than oil saturated, it's pretty clean. So, what I've been told is I should wipe it off with acetone?
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 20, 2012, 11:04:44 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on October 20, 2012, 11:04:44 AM
or brake cleaner
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Sick88Tbird on October 20, 2012, 07:49:03 PM
Post by: Sick88Tbird on October 20, 2012, 07:49:03 PM
It does take a good feel and eye and the right wheel if using a whizz wheel(everybody seems to call it something different). The plastic wheels are specifically for aluminum and work like magic, hardly abrasive at all...I've seen a lot of people gouge aluminum with a razor blade...I don't have time for all that and it's never compromised a gasket surface for me yet...it's not idiot-proof though and I don't recommend it for novices with a heavy hand and an 80-grit sanding disc...lol.
86cougar, good luck and get'er sealed up!
-Don
86cougar, good luck and get'er sealed up!
-Don
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Crazy88 on October 20, 2012, 10:41:13 PM
Post by: Crazy88 on October 20, 2012, 10:41:13 PM
The 3M Roloc wheels that I use are made out of spun Aluminum Oxide, thus are softer than either steel, iron or aluminum. You might also note that I specified taking your time and using low speed. These pads are specifically designed to prep surfaces without gouging. Even on the much softer aluminum, as long as you keep the disc moving, you shouldn't have any issues.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 20, 2012, 11:16:44 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 20, 2012, 11:16:44 PM
Crazy88,
I'm glad you joined us! I just got through cleaning up one head and no matter what I try to clean it up with it is saturated in oil. I have some Roloc wheels, I also have some aluminum oxide disc for my orbital sander from 180-600 grit. I imagine the same could be said for it, light touch and keep it moving.
I'm glad you joined us! I just got through cleaning up one head and no matter what I try to clean it up with it is saturated in oil. I have some Roloc wheels, I also have some aluminum oxide disc for my orbital sander from 180-600 grit. I imagine the same could be said for it, light touch and keep it moving.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Crazy88 on October 21, 2012, 12:18:41 AM
Post by: Crazy88 on October 21, 2012, 12:18:41 AM
What do you mean saturated with oil? Can you post pics? As for the Aluminum oxide discs for your orbital sander, I would avoid something that is designed to be used for sanding... but the prinl of keeping the tool moving is right on the money.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 21, 2012, 09:41:30 AM
Post by: 86cougar on October 21, 2012, 09:41:30 AM
I'm still working on getting pictures. The head is a dark brown where all the gaskets go. Would a scotch brite pad help? I had some carb. cleaner handy so I tried that and it didn't faze it. I need to get me some more brake cleaner and try that. The head still feels like it has a film on it.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on October 21, 2012, 06:25:10 PM
Post by: 86cougar on October 21, 2012, 06:25:10 PM
I bought some more brake cleaner and it sure made a big difference compared to the carb. cleaner.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on November 07, 2012, 06:54:08 PM
Post by: 86cougar on November 07, 2012, 06:54:08 PM
I just wanted to let you guys know that I cleaned up the heads and intake manifold till it shined. I started the car up yesterday and it ran great for about an hour. Good oil pressure, no smoke out the exhaust. idled smooth, and revved up nice. I checked the oil this morning and I saw NO coolant! Now I need to find my electrical problem. "Thanks!" from me to all of you who helped me!
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: Crazy88 on November 08, 2012, 07:25:47 AM
Post by: Crazy88 on November 08, 2012, 07:25:47 AM
Quote from: 86cougar;402162
I just wanted to let you guys know that I cleaned up the heads and intake manifold till it shined. I started the car up yesterday and it ran great for about an hour. Good oil pressure, no smoke out the exhaust. idled smooth, and revved up nice. I checked the oil this morning and I saw NO coolant! Now I need to find my electrical problem. "Thanks!" from me to all of you who helped me!
Congratulations!
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 08, 2012, 09:51:48 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 08, 2012, 09:51:48 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;400786
THERE IS ONLY 1 USE FOR RTV IN A HEADGASKET JOB AND YOU DON'T USE BLUE. Blue is not oil resistant, it will swell and leak. Use black, in a 1/4"x 3/4" bead at the corners where the intake front and back seals meet the head, place the seals down, and then do it again over top of the end seals. EVERYPLACE ELSE IS DRY. Using RTV where it doesn't belong does not prevent leaks, it creates them. It you removed the timing cover, use a small blob at the corner where the oil pan meets the block before you put the cover back on. NO PLACE ELSE. We have an engine rebuilder here in town whose engines come in to OUR shop packed full of orange RTV. We can't make them stop, their poor customers are paying for the same work twice because those retards don't know how to use RTV.
So that I am very clear, see this pic:
First off according to GE the color means NOTHING. They are all 100% silicone. Call them if you need verification. And we never use the end gaskets to install a manifold. We use a bead of silicone across the front and rear and just a moderate amount. Those rail gaskets leak CASE CLOSED. We do use a modified GRAY Silicone base sealant that is recommended by IH. It has a Ford part number for their DIESELS which are IH any way. If a gasket wont seal your parts you need to either replace the part or have it SURFACED. Just Me could be WRONG!!!
Here it is we buy it by the case load. By the way SILICONE has an expiration DATE!!! BETTER CHECK IT!!!!!
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/014-4.jpg)
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on November 08, 2012, 12:18:07 PM
Post by: 86cougar on November 08, 2012, 12:18:07 PM
Tom,
One thing I noticed was that I was only putting RTV on the top of the end gaskets. This time I put some on both top and bottom at the valley corners. The oil looks good and I'm not getting any smoke out the exhaust now. Also, the carb. cleaner was not doing half the job the brake cleaner did. That made a big difference. I took the heads off and put them on my bench and cleaned them up as well, then put on new head gaskets. Taking out the thermactor bump, I took some valve grinding and cleaned up the valves a little, new gaskets, cleaned the fuel injectors, smoothed out the ports on the intake and head, but it sure seemed to make a big difference in the pressure coming out the exhaust. I also have air being pumped into the exhaust that I didn't have before because the heads were plugged. Then I put a filter right after my charcoal canister like you suggested. Thanks! for all your help!!
One thing I noticed was that I was only putting RTV on the top of the end gaskets. This time I put some on both top and bottom at the valley corners. The oil looks good and I'm not getting any smoke out the exhaust now. Also, the carb. cleaner was not doing half the job the brake cleaner did. That made a big difference. I took the heads off and put them on my bench and cleaned them up as well, then put on new head gaskets. Taking out the thermactor bump, I took some valve grinding and cleaned up the valves a little, new gaskets, cleaned the fuel injectors, smoothed out the ports on the intake and head, but it sure seemed to make a big difference in the pressure coming out the exhaust. I also have air being pumped into the exhaust that I didn't have before because the heads were plugged. Then I put a filter right after my charcoal canister like you suggested. Thanks! for all your help!!
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 08, 2012, 01:00:59 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 08, 2012, 01:00:59 PM
No problem. We see a lot of those canisters broken and charcoal sucked in to the engine!!! NEVER USE THE FRONT OR REAR GASKETS. Use a continuous bead of silicone. BLUE IF YOU LIKE!!!
THERE IS ONLY 1 USE FOR RTV IN A HEADGASKET JOB AND YOU DON'T USE BLUE. Blue is not oil resistant, NOT TRUE!!!
86 here is the specks on BLUE PERMATEX. Totally fine for oil and the OLD WIVES TAILS KEEP COMING!!!!!
Permatex® Ultra Blue® Multipurpose RTV Silicone Gasket Maker
OEM specified. Designed specially for high-torque and high vibration
applications, like those common in import engines, this premium RTV
gasket maker exceeds manufacturers’ performance requirements. Sensorsafe,
low odor, and noncorrosive. Maximum vibration resistance, with
outstanding resistance to oils, cooling and shop fluids. Guaranteed not
to leak. Temperature range -65?F to 500?F (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent.
THERE IS ONLY 1 USE FOR RTV IN A HEADGASKET JOB AND YOU DON'T USE BLUE. Blue is not oil resistant, NOT TRUE!!!
86 here is the specks on BLUE PERMATEX. Totally fine for oil and the OLD WIVES TAILS KEEP COMING!!!!!
Permatex® Ultra Blue® Multipurpose RTV Silicone Gasket Maker
OEM specified. Designed specially for high-torque and high vibration
applications, like those common in import engines, this premium RTV
gasket maker exceeds manufacturers’ performance requirements. Sensorsafe,
low odor, and noncorrosive. Maximum vibration resistance, with
outstanding resistance to oils, cooling and shop fluids. Guaranteed not
to leak. Temperature range -65?F to 500?F (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: 86cougar on November 08, 2012, 03:33:13 PM
Post by: 86cougar on November 08, 2012, 03:33:13 PM
Tom,
Just so you know I used the gray. I didn't want to take any more chances.
Just so you know I used the gray. I didn't want to take any more chances.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 08, 2012, 04:49:29 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 08, 2012, 04:49:29 PM
@Tom, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the subject of RTV. I really don't care to be at odds on it every time the subject comes up.
Title: Intake manifold
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 08, 2012, 07:42:04 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 08, 2012, 07:42:04 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;402198
@Tom, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the subject of RTV. I really don't care to be at odds on it every time the subject comes up.
Dont argue with ME Call Permatex. I posted their use and usage of chemicals it is compatible with. I think you are quite knowledgeable but young. You listen to people and take it as fact. Think about what you posted and do you have proof the Blue stuff is any different than any other silicone product. They are all 100% product. And we discuss this with our vendors. Now explain to me what BLUE is used for??? As it is clearly sold as an automotive gasket maker. So tell me what gaskets it is used for that does not have an oil BASE. This is a discussion board and facts should prevail. It is not a g match. When i dispute things i am not always right but this is just a correction on your statement. If you can prove different please do so, Thanks Tom