1.8L kia sophia 4cyl
car over heated on monther in law
Car has had some brown looking in the radiator fluid.
No coolant found on the dip stick.
Car runs fine, quite as a sewing machine.
found several holes / leak in radiator
order up and installed new radiator and Tstat
took out and cleaned off temp sender and temp sensor
flushed out heater core
ran car heater core supply line off, coolant dumps out so thats good.
ran car with heater core return line off and coolant dumps out of other end of core so thats good.
ran car with all hoses on and began my verification problem was solved.
tested car today and it was like hell getting all the air out but finally heat arrived at the heater core.
Let car idle for several minutes with / without heat on and guages were normal.
Took car for drive and car will over heat inside of a mile if i trust my guages.
Fan comes on just at or barely above middle range of guage.
Fan runs constant once here and needle will climb up.
I am stumped by the brown stuff that was in the coolant and am pondering a cracked head or bad water pump.
water seems to circulate fine, is it possible to have a bad water pump but yet not have any coolant leaking past the weap hole/ isnt the shaft of the water pump physically welded to the impeller or is there a termal disonnect somewhere on the shaft. Is it possible to have a bad water pump that does not leak yet also does supply coolant?
If the head is cracked, do i need to buy a coolant system check kit and put aire on the system ?
stumped here.
not loosing any coolant, and the car runs fine yet it pysically seems to be over heating. TSTAT was original 0EM 85DEGC / 88DEGC and i replaced with a 190deg tstat, this seems ok to me.
should i go with a lower deg Tstat or do you all think i need to let a shop diagnose what the issue is here, its my mother in laws only car.
It's certainly possible for the water pump to shiznit the bed without leaking, in fact Volkswagen 1.8 and 2.0 engines are notorious for it. They have a plastic impeller that comes apart, and the car overheats with no leaks. It quite often only comes partially apart and still circulates the coolant enough to prevent overheating, and you don't even know there's a problem until you do the timing belt and water pump.
However, you said the water seems to be circulating, so this likely isn't the problem. Also, if you can see coolant circulating in the radiator it isn't likely a thermostat issue. This is easy enough to check though - get the engine hot (hot enough that the fan comes on without the A/C on - this also means not in defrost mode), and feel the upper rad hose. If it's hot the thermostat is opening, if it isn't, the thermostat may be stuck shut. You can also tell by feeling the air the fan is pulling through the rad - if it's warm hot coolant is entering the rad. If it's cool the rad is not getting any hot coolant from the engine.
There's also a chance the gauge is lying to you. If the car has separate sensors for the gauge and computer you can check this with a scan tool - just observe the engine coolant temperature on the tool and compare it with the gauge. This will only work if it has separate sensors though. An infrared temp gun can help too, just point the gun at the upper rad hose outlet and watch the temp. If it never gets hot the t-stat is stuck. If it gets hot but stays within a normal range the gauge is lying. If it gets hot and keeps climbing you'll need to dig deeper...
One must not forget the basics, too. If the car has A/C and the condenser is plugged up with road grime there might not be enough air getting through the rad. I had this happen on a customer's 2010 F-150 that was a farm truck - it was overheating, and the condenser was plugged up solid with hay dust. After blowing the dust away the truck ran fine...
thanks, you gave me a few things to look at.
whats your thoughts on my seeing brown milk shake goop in the radiator fluid?
its like oil getting in there i suppose.
I will check the condensor for debris
I do like your point about the plastic impeller, ill now put my money on that.
upper hose does get hot, air coming off fan does feel warm, i dont think the two sensors i have are telling lies, i could replace them both though if i want. I dont have a scan tool but i do have a laser thermometer that i didnt think of using till you mentioned it.
thanks again, post back, gotta have this fixed for her in the next couple days.
in my origina post, i failed to mention something i noticed. When the heater core hoses were off, i was kind of amazed at how slow the water was actually flowing. it didnt shoot out like i expected the coolant to do.
I'd have to think that the brown goo might be corrosion. Could the water pump be clogged to some degree as to restrict the flow?
I think this because you said there wasn't a lot of flow from the heater hoses, might it be that one of the radiator hoses is clogged or pinching itself off?
could be, nother good point,, which means ill have to figure out how to get at the water pump,, good thing i have a brand new timing belt as well.
I'll prob shot gun the water pump and replace it.
Already got the rad & tstat new and in, what the hell, might as well keep on with a new water pump.
who knows, maybe the engine will blow up next and Ill see it on a roll back with 400 bux in new parts going to the bone yard...LOL... that would make perfect sense.
i yet again failed to mention something else...........
after i thought i had all the air out of the system, and car was still over heating by way of visual on guage, i removed the coolant temp sensor to clean it. i figured the brown goop may be coating the probe causing a delay in when the eFan gets signal to come on.
so yesterday evening, one of the last things i did was remove both the sender and sensor.
I noticed that when i removed the sensor that triggers the fan, no water came out. This is even after i was for certain i had all the air out.
so i take off the radiator cap , pinch off the radiator over flow hose, i blow as hard is i can into the radiator and out spews coolant out the hole the sensor was mounted.
keep in mind when i removed the sensor, no coolant came out.
It may be possible that i have air still in the system????????????
this would put the sensor in hot air only which would trigger over heating.
anyone know of a way to get all air out?
since the heater core is higher than everything else cooling, could i remove one hose and blow into it or add air to push water around in the system........since its bypassing the Tstat??
Take a hose, hold it in your radiator with a rag (for pressure) and make sure you flush out your cooling system real well. Run just water for a day or two with/without A/C on, heater on/off and flush it out again. I let the car do the work for me. I open the spout on the bottom of my radiator to drain. What usually happens is if there is still in your system it will mix up like a milk shake. I flush it until it is clear, then add coolant.
purchased water pump, yet to install.
so last night i was troubleshooting some more to insure all air is out of system.
I was squeezing the lower radiator hose and i felt what seemed to be random "THUMPING" in the hose. thats the only way i know to describe it.
when i pinch off the lower hose, i dont feel the turbulance of the water like i think it aught to be with the tstat open.
Also, the oem pump has a metal impeller, thats bad news for Tchickens theory, the replacement is BRAND NEW oem as well with a metal impeller.
defective rad , old tstat were replaced.
compression numbers are 185, 185, 188, 186 on cold motor.
what could the thumping be ?
I think you're starting to chase your tail.
Check for debris and/or obstruction between the condenser and the radiator, and use a block tester to check for combustion gas in the coolant. What you're describing sounds suspiciously like a blown head gasket, but remember that all blown head gaskets are not created equal, there's a dozen (or better) ways for one to blow: oil to coolant, coolant to oil, oil to combustion, combustion to oil, coolant to combustion, combustion to coolant, cylinder to cylinder, cylinder to atmosphere, oil to atmosphere, etc. Most of the cases I see are combustion to coolant. Get the block tester. fill it with blue fluid, warm up the motor, stick the tester in the radiator opening, squeeze the bulb a few times (being careful to not suck up any coolant) and watch for the fluid to turn green/yellow. Boom.
The "thumping" could be air bubbles in the coolant. While replacing the pump won't hurt anything, I would bet that getting the air out of the system will actually solve the problem.
Unless the engine is making it's own "air". If you're leaking combustion gas, it will seem like you just can't get all the air out. Use a block tester. Before you throw any more cash at it, you want to know what you're dealing with.
On the other hand, if you just like throwing money away, you can throw it at me and sleep well at night. Lol
I have to agree with Foe on this one and it would probably be much cheaper in the long run if you can eliminate for certain a cracked head, block or blown head gasket. If I recall correctly though, you had already posted the results of a compression test, which
should have ruled out a blown head gasket. Have you located and used the air bleeds on the engine itself? Have you filled the overflow tank, started the car bringing it up to operating temperature and then monitored the level in the overflow tank as it cools? I am not sure about that particular model, but other models in the KIA line have air bleed fittings on or very near the thermostat housing. Of course it goes without saying that the best thing you can have is a good service manual for that particular model.
Doesn't rule out a blown head gasket at all. It rules out a major gasket failure. At cranking speed there may not be enough heat, compression or both to overcome the gasket. This may change with the engine warmed up, or with the engine above idle. I once owned a 4 cylinder mustang i bought with a blown head gasket and cracked head, once sufficiently warmed up it would smooth out and quit blowing white smoke. Basically it would expand with the heat until it sealed up. You still want to get the motor hot and run the block tester.
Is the block tester kit something that can be sourced locally or from Summit?
The one we use at the shop comes from Napa.
Is this (http://"http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=BK_7001006_0361121739") the one you are referring to Foe? If so, $42.99 seems pretty reasonable considering the cost of shotgun troubleshooting which could be avoided.
That's the one. you only use about an ounce or maybe 2 of the fluid at a time, so you can use it over and over again. You can use it to help your buddies out, who knows?
Normally it is cold coolant butting the hot coolant. My dads old house used to do this with those old radiators. When they got air bound they used to BANG. Or you have a blown head gasket or cracked HEAD!!! Just a thought???
I always drill a small hole in the rim of the stat. If the stat has one of those silly ball bearings or bell check valves i remove them. This makes it much easier to get trapped air out of the system. Waiting for a sealed STAT to open is a pain in the AS$$. Been drilling holes in state for many many years IT WORKS GREAT!!!
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-15.jpg)
How many miles on the car and was it running just water instead of coolant for an extended period of time? Sounds like some symtoms of a cracked head to me, but I had similar problems with my 2000 Cherokee 4.0. Found that I had been running water instead of coolant for at least 3 years (someone hit my jeep in a parking lot head on and toasted the rad, the autobody shop put water instead of coolant in it, when I checked the coolant level it looked green but not green enough I guess). Anyways started having problems with overheating, engine missing slightly, building pressure inside the rad, intermittantly working heat, all sorts of silly querky things. The mechanice tried to tell my head was cracked and needed a remaned head. Well here it is what the water pump looked like....
If you are capable of removing the pump and thermostat it is worth doing to have a look, gaskets are cheap and then you can rule them out for sure, long as you don't trap air inside the system.
problem cured but interestingly enough, when i screw up I typically screw up pretty big.. read on an see how my screw up paid off.
been jackin with this car for a week.
10/5- towed car home
10/6- replaced leaky radiator and installed new Tstat
.......car still overheated.
i asked a few questions here , decided to move on to water pump.
..pls remember the date above where i replaced the radiator :)
10/9, 10/10 & 10/11- spent 3 hours each evening tearing down my wonderful 2 1/2'' working area on the passanger side engine bay.
every bolt ,, and i mean every single bolt was nothing short of just taking a sigh and just simply dealing with the impossible. Ive got 9 man hours into tear down to get to the water pump including time spend adding radiator & tstat.
10/11- I put my finger over one weep hole of the old water pump, i blow through the other weep hole and i hear air coming out around the impeller seal. BTW. the impeller on this water pump is metal welded to the shaft. The new oem pump i have purchased is sealed so no i must have a bad water pump also.
Had the wife pick up an oem valve cover gasket.
10/12 at 8pm-start to assemble things back together from 8pm to which my conclusion of the whole episode arrived at 2pm saturday on 10/13 ,, thats 18 straight hours.
I replaced the water pump, timing belt and started the car up around 2:30 am = car still over heats.. im really lost now as to why and my mind wanders to many impossible thoughts. compression good, block is free of blockage, tstat opens / closes, fan kicks on , burp air out of system, lower hose **EVENTUALLY** gets hot but the thing over heats.
At 9am on 13oct i take off to get a lower temp Tstat- Kia recommended temp is 85degC, advance sold me a 195deg tstat so im thinking maybe thats my problem.
Install 180deg tstat and car still over heats.
Take out tstat, disconnect lower rad hose, shove garden hose inside engine block and let the water flow through block down to ground. Water flows through block fine.
well,, long story short............ You know when you buy a radiator they come with throw away plastic caps that are shoved inside the upper / lower radiator hose knecks? well i forgot to take out the plastic cap that was inside the upper rad hose kneck.
My engine rejected the cap and pushed it up into the upper radiator hose but did so such that water could get by but not sufficient for proper cooling.
better yet.... if i had not had goofed up like this, i would not have been able to find that the water pump was also on its way out. The benefit was that i got to change the water pump and timing belt.
this whole ordeal boils down to human error.
parts replaced:
Radiator
Tstat
Water pump
Timing Belt
valve cover gasket
..compression test yielded 185psi on all four cyl even up.
total hours with this was about 30 all together.
1996 Kia Sephia 1.8L 4cyl.
Does anyone know if i am close to the qty hours the shop would be allowed to charge? just tryin to see if i am on track or not in speed.
thanks for the advice everyone, been checkin this thread every day but could not respond due to so much going on and evey minute of every day seems to be spoken for.
Hey Tom, I do that to, and you are right it allows you to "be able" to remove the rad cap sooner without all the spillage.
In good spirt and having thick skin, im issuing myself the resident dumb ass award for this screw up per my novel above.. at least until someone else does something worse to which i will pass on the torch.
I think we need a little icon or tag on our sig showing who currently holds the award. it would be kinda fun i think.
if one of you guys did this, id be laughing my ass off right now.
Hey man..it ain't a screw up if it's fixed now ;)
I would guess that the owner of a pro shop would have you eat the extra time and part beyond the original radiator replacement. It would be an immediate and sometimes painful reminder to pay attention to details, thus reducing the likelihood of the same mistake being repeated. Think about this, without replacing the water pump this time, the happy customer would be a repeat customer and could be billed twice for the coolant drainage, teardown, etc.
Jay the banging was the GIVE AWAY. When an engines coolant is blocked it bangs. Just like a radiator in a house in the winter time that is air bound. Either way you fixed it ant that is GOOD.
thanks, i thought i had jumanji stuck in the block.
jcassity,
I don't think you can have that award so easily! You got newbies like me that HAVE to learn the hard way. I remember thinking that I didn't want to remove my starter. Now I have a new starter and it's been off probably (8) times now. I even tried putting it in upside down. Same with my oil pan, first time a PITA, second time not so bad. I'm sure glad I didn't give up and take my car to a shop, they would own my car by now. Afraid of the unknown.... practice makes perfect... Well, I'm far from perfect but I'm not so afraid of the unknown any more and I can replace my starter, radiator, intake manifold all in a fraction of the time it used to take me. At my rate I might kill my car before I fix it, but it's a perfect candidate for shop class. TBS302 is right, if the job's not right, it makes me want to get right back in there and make it right so that NEXT TIME I can even improve on what's there. Some times I carry a torch... some times I carry a candle (lol).