Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 18, 2012, 12:20:46 AM
Post by: 86cougar on September 18, 2012, 12:20:46 AM
I take it this is for weight distribution. I just read an article that said that putting a battery in the right side of the trunk is like moving your engine 5"-10" back. IF that is true, why don't I see more people doing it?
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86T-bird on September 18, 2012, 04:53:05 AM
Post by: 86T-bird on September 18, 2012, 04:53:05 AM
Because it's a PITA to do it!
The article may have overstated the benefit if the reference was to V8 RWD cars. Moving ~40 lbs from the front to the back is an improvement for weight transfer, but it's unlikely the equivalent of an engine set back.
I've recently done it on the Thunderbird and did it years ago on the Mustang. There are couple schools of thought on how to wire it, but if you want to be NHRA legal, there is only one way.
The article may have overstated the benefit if the reference was to V8 RWD cars. Moving ~40 lbs from the front to the back is an improvement for weight transfer, but it's unlikely the equivalent of an engine set back.
I've recently done it on the Thunderbird and did it years ago on the Mustang. There are couple schools of thought on how to wire it, but if you want to be NHRA legal, there is only one way.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 18, 2012, 05:50:00 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 18, 2012, 05:50:00 AM
A photo is worth a thousand words!!! Trunk mounts are cool and i love doing them. It is an easy MOD and it cleans up the engine compartment and it works for weight distribution!!
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Picture007.jpg)
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Picture007.jpg)
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 18, 2012, 07:26:12 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 18, 2012, 07:26:12 AM
I recently got in an argument with a friend over trunk mounting, he says ground the battery solely to the body and make the engine ground from the body on the other end, I say I don't want to push starting amps through the sheet metal and I would expect radio noise from his single ground, so I would ground the battery at it's location, but also run a main ground up to the engine. Your pic doesn't show either, so which do you do? Also, looking at your pic, I want to know if 1 battery is inadequate in some way.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 18, 2012, 11:59:22 AM
Post by: 86cougar on September 18, 2012, 11:59:22 AM
86T-bird,
If you ever see me on a NHRA track, I have only one thing to say to you...RUN! Hope your yesterday was a Good Day! I'm sure setting up a trunk mount battery by their rules can be a PITA. I could pretty much tape the cable to my roof, I won't, but I could.
Tom,
Nice picture! I have already ordered my standard length battery cables, they should be here today. I wish I had seen the article sooner. I also read that putting 40 lbs. over the rear axle will give you a little more launch traction.
TheFoeYouKnow,
From what I've read, you should only need two batteries for a vehicle if you are running a lot of accessories. I also bought a ground strap (engine to body) for my Cougar. Maybe someone will chime in on grounding issues. Thanks!
If you ever see me on a NHRA track, I have only one thing to say to you...RUN! Hope your yesterday was a Good Day! I'm sure setting up a trunk mount battery by their rules can be a PITA. I could pretty much tape the cable to my roof, I won't, but I could.
Tom,
Nice picture! I have already ordered my standard length battery cables, they should be here today. I wish I had seen the article sooner. I also read that putting 40 lbs. over the rear axle will give you a little more launch traction.
TheFoeYouKnow,
From what I've read, you should only need two batteries for a vehicle if you are running a lot of accessories. I also bought a ground strap (engine to body) for my Cougar. Maybe someone will chime in on grounding issues. Thanks!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 18, 2012, 05:37:44 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 18, 2012, 05:37:44 PM
I have been mounting batterys in trunks for 40 years. And you most certainly can ground them to the body. I do it all the time. NOPE the battery's are in PARALLEL of course and the engine in this car is massive NA with 12.5-1 CR. So i did not want any issues with cranking. It can crank with one battery but the DUAL battery setup is just a talking point. Something of an eye catcher. And a talking point. One battery is all you need. Thanks for asking
Body to engine cable
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/family238.jpg)
Engine side
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/family240.jpg)
Trunk ground
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/family235.jpg)
Here is another one. Every car we build has a trunk mount. It is like my signature of sorts!!
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Kitties.jpg)
And another one in my CAMARO
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-1.jpg)
Body to engine cable
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/family238.jpg)
Engine side
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/family240.jpg)
Trunk ground
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/family235.jpg)
Here is another one. Every car we build has a trunk mount. It is like my signature of sorts!!
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Kitties.jpg)
And another one in my CAMARO
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-1.jpg)
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 18, 2012, 06:36:07 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 18, 2012, 06:36:07 PM
I think I have come to the conclusion that the cables I received today will work fine as part of my battery relocation. If I do it right, it will look like I'm running braided line all the way to the front. I will just connect it to #2 cable for my positive. The other braided cable is plenty long to mount to the chassis. The battery box I have is metal and can mount from the side or the bottom. All I need now is the #2 cable.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 19, 2012, 01:35:16 AM
Post by: 86cougar on September 19, 2012, 01:35:16 AM
Tom,
A marine battery in your Camaro?
A marine battery in your Camaro?
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 05:34:29 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 05:34:29 AM
YES!!! IT has more cranking power.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 347Thunder on September 19, 2012, 08:40:03 AM
Post by: 347Thunder on September 19, 2012, 08:40:03 AM
The best way to do it is straight from powermaster they said run 1 awg from pos to starter relay, 1 awg ground to frame then 6awg ground to the back of head. this is what I did and I have the same voltage at the back of the alternator as I do at the battery, its nice having everything on and still have it over 14v
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 347Thunder on September 19, 2012, 08:42:16 AM
Post by: 347Thunder on September 19, 2012, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;398505
A photo is worth a thousand words!!! Trunk mounts are cool and i love doing them. It is an easy MOD and it cleans up the engine compartment and it works for weight distribution!!
(http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Picture007.jpg)
those look sweet but the tards at the track wont let you run the the batterys open at the track unless you have a 1/8" bulkhead sealing you off from the trunk
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 12:12:23 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 12:12:23 PM
With a one gauge wire. The entire car as the ground did you expect you would have a voltage DROP. I DON'T THINK SO ????
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 12:15:20 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 12:15:20 PM
The BLUE top setup in the photo above has a 3/0 ground and a 2/0 battery feed to the starter. Engine ground to body is 1 gauge
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 12:18:31 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 12:18:31 PM
Basically i dont go to the track much so i really dont care about tech inspection. At the shows with the trunk and hood open it does all the talking!!! Thanks 347
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Chuck W on September 19, 2012, 02:05:45 PM
Post by: Chuck W on September 19, 2012, 02:05:45 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;398506
I recently got in an argument with a friend over trunk mounting, he says ground the battery solely to the body and make the engine ground from the body on the other end, I say I don't want to push starting amps through the sheet metal and I would expect radio noise from his single ground, so I would ground the battery at it's location, but also run a main ground up to the engine. Your pic doesn't show either, so which do you do? Also, looking at your pic, I want to know if 1 battery is inadequate in some way.
I've thought about this too. I have the battery mounted towards the rear of the TBird (behind pass seat on old rear seat floorpan. It's a non-spillable Odyssey). I have the battery grounded at it's location, and a couple engine-to-chassis grounds. I have a little radio noise and have thought about adding another ground from the battery up to the engine.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 08:45:06 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 08:45:06 PM
Well RADIO NOISE is RF. And not from the battery . RF is very bad for electronic cars. WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ????? The Body of the car is how it is DUN even by the OEM guys. Check out some cars that have trunk battery's from the manufacturer. Explain why having a seperate ground cable running the entire length of the car is better than using the entire CAR???
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 08:52:15 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 08:52:15 PM
FOE please explain further your theory on this RADIO NOISE THING. Radio NOISE is as i explained RF. Normally from the ALT or the Ignition system. If you ground at the back of the car why in the world would you need a ground all the way back from the engine to the trunk battery???? Please explain your theory !!! Thanks
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 19, 2012, 09:13:17 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 19, 2012, 09:13:17 PM
Radio noise is usually related to grounding problems, such as would create interference along the ground path. This causes radio noise because the antenna is grounded (usually, excluding glass mounted antenna grids and mini masts that sit on top of satellite antennae). Lincoln LS and last gen T-Bird have trunk mounted batteries, both run ground through the body, but use more than a usual amount of diodes to stop kick-back as well as lots and lots of shielding throughout the electrical system (all networks, low level amp feeds, speaker wires, CAN connected module grounds and crash sensors). They also run 2 positive cables to the front, one to the starter terminal (which also serves as the junction to the alternator, hence Ford refers to it as dirty power) and the other to the central junction box as a jumping off point for the rest of the electrical system. I believe they're both 2 AWG. You do not want to chase electrical gremlins in an LS, serves us right for sharing with Jaguar. My fear of using the body as the sole ground path comes from knowing all the potential ground problems an old car can be hiding between the trunk and the engine bay. Tom, on your restorations and hot rods everything has been gone over, on most anybody else's car that's not the case, and it's these unknowns that cause me to think about a main ground to the engine.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 19, 2012, 09:18:02 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 19, 2012, 09:18:02 PM
I'm not suggesting that anybody who trunk mounts WILL have noise, I'm suggesting that an improperly preped car MAY have noise or other grounding issues.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Crazy88 on September 19, 2012, 10:02:10 PM
Post by: Crazy88 on September 19, 2012, 10:02:10 PM
Grounds, in an of themselves are not the cause of the RF interference heard through a sound system. Improper RF shielding within the sound systems and unfiltered power feeds are the root cause. I am with Tom here, with regard to the chassis ground. If one were to look closely, our cars get their battery ground from the chassis directly or to the block and then to the chassis. This is generally the case with most unit body cars, such as ours. When dealing with either a framed car or one with rubber isolated subframes, extra steps must be taken to ensure that the chassis and the body of the car at at the same ground potential, usually through braided grounding straps.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Chrome on September 19, 2012, 10:33:16 PM
Post by: Chrome on September 19, 2012, 10:33:16 PM
Battery relocation is mainly for traction. Puts weight over the wheels without adding weight to the car. It's done on the right side because that is the wheel that tries to spin, especially on cars without limited slip of some sort. I suppose it could help weight distribution as well. I have thought about doing it at one time. My concern was not the ground, but the long cable for the positive. Has to be a lot of currnent loss. Lots of people do it. Guess it just takes a really thick cable.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 10:57:10 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 19, 2012, 10:57:10 PM
Not really CHROME. I have a number 2 cable on the MIDNIGHTER. And i have absolutely no issues with it. On my Firebirds Mustangs and Camaros i use a 2/0 wire. When you use cables of this size their is literally no voltage drop.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 19, 2012, 11:26:34 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 19, 2012, 11:26:34 PM
I measured my positive cable at about 17" long. Moving my battery to the back, I will probably need at least a 8'-10' cable. That is quite a stretch! Personally I would want to stay away from moving the starter relay closer, even if it would change up cable lengths. Tom's picture show two optima batteries, but he say's you only need one. I think I'm going to have to have a better look at the PRO's and CON's before I decide if it's worth it. A lot of food for thought. Thanks!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 19, 2012, 11:32:42 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 19, 2012, 11:32:42 PM
OOPS! Guess I was typing when I should have been reading. Ok, so if I move my battery to the back and if I ever need a jump, I'm going to probably have to do some explaining...
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 19, 2012, 11:37:31 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 19, 2012, 11:37:31 PM
No big, set up a pos junction lug (http://"http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RFW-JB48/") on the inner fender.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 20, 2012, 05:38:56 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 20, 2012, 05:38:56 AM
86 NEED A JUMP????? How EMBARRASSING TO SAY THE LEAST!!!!! 86 a pos post under the hood. YUCKIE DUCKIE. That is over designing and grossly UGLY!!!! Pop the trunk and dazzle the NOVICE!!!!
86 once again the dual battery's were installed for show. And just to be different. Everyone has jumped on the trunk mount battery thing. So as i have to be different and come up with things out of the norm i built a dual battery setup. Just an attention getter. A single battery will work just fine. But then again 1700 CCA is ASSUME !!!!
86 once again the dual battery's were installed for show. And just to be different. Everyone has jumped on the trunk mount battery thing. So as i have to be different and come up with things out of the norm i built a dual battery setup. Just an attention getter. A single battery will work just fine. But then again 1700 CCA is ASSUME !!!!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 20, 2012, 12:52:08 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 20, 2012, 12:52:08 PM
Tom,
I never know when my Optima is going to die. Speaking of novice's... you lost me on the 1700 CCA, please explain.
I never know when my Optima is going to die. Speaking of novice's... you lost me on the 1700 CCA, please explain.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 20, 2012, 12:56:39 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 20, 2012, 12:56:39 PM
He has 2 850cca batteries in parallel. See previous pic.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 20, 2012, 01:10:41 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 20, 2012, 01:10:41 PM
Got ya.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Big B on September 20, 2012, 05:59:30 PM
Post by: Big B on September 20, 2012, 05:59:30 PM
I'm getting ready to relocate my battery to the trunk, only I'm gonna relocate the Solenoid with it as well to keep the positive battery cable short. Then, running the ALT charge wire directly to the battery in the trunk, and a new 4ga wire from the Solenoid to the Starter, running through the interior. Since the 2ga ALT charge wire probably will get hot while having 130amps pushed through it, would it be best to run that wire under the car instead of through the interior?; where it could possibly take out other wires if it ever melts down.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: thewestie on September 20, 2012, 06:19:21 PM
Post by: thewestie on September 20, 2012, 06:19:21 PM
Quote from: Big B;398732
I'm getting ready to relocate my battery to the trunk, only I'm gonna relocate the Solenoid with it as well to keep the positive battery cable short. Then, running the ALT charge wire directly to the battery in the trunk, and a new 4ga wire from the Solenoid to the Starter, running through the interior. Since the 2ga ALT charge wire probably will get hot while having 130amps pushed through it, would it be best to run that wire under the car instead of through the interior?; where it could possibly take out other wires if it ever melts down.[/QUOTE
I can show you some pics of what I did to keep NHRA happy and I kept the solenoid in the stock location and went with a New style mini torque starter the more you look on the net the more ways your gonna find to do it.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 20, 2012, 07:02:20 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 20, 2012, 07:02:20 PM
Pictures!! Gives you guys a chance to show off the work you've done, and it makes it easier for novice like me to leaned from you.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 20, 2012, 07:06:32 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 20, 2012, 07:06:32 PM
Leave the solenoid put, if you have a PMGR starter, run to the starter feed post on the actual starter, then connect the 3g alternator there as well. This way you can keep the cable shorter and you don't have to cross the engine bay to the other side of the car. Besides that, the solenoid studs are only so long. What do you need the most current for? The starter. Attaching the alternator there also gives you the shortest possible path back to the battery, and the cable that used to feed the starter now feeds the car via the junction point at the solenoid. I'd run inside the car with the biggest cable you're comfortable with. If I understand right, Tom says he uses 1 AWG and that seems best to me. I'd also shield it with either some heavy nylon sleeving, or some convoluted tubing to protect it from the vehicle. 1 AWG isn't likely to get hot from what you're going to be able to run through it, the most you're talking about carrying through it is 200 to 250 amps during cranking (probably still on the high side), and it's good for WAY more than that. Keep it in a certified externally vented box if you want to stay good for tech.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 20, 2012, 07:28:53 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 20, 2012, 07:28:53 PM
Quote from: big b;398732
i'm getting ready to relocate my battery to the trunk, only i'm gonna relocate the solenoid with it as well to keep the positive battery cable short. Then, running the alt charge wire directly to the battery in the trunk, and a new 4ga wire from the solenoid to the starter, running through the interior. Since the 2ga alt charge wire probably will get hot while having 130amps pushed through it, would it be best to run that wire under the car instead of through the interior?; where it could possibly take out other wires if it ever melts down.
Bad Idea!!!
Wire size is to small and running an alt wire back to the trunk and along with an enable lead is not the way i would do it!!!
Not following you post at all. You want a 4 gauge for cranking and a 2 gauge for the alt. You are not thinking this out. A single 1 or 2 Gauge wire to the underhood solenoid is all that is necessary. Moving the solenoid is not what i would do.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 20, 2012, 07:43:10 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 20, 2012, 07:43:10 PM
I think this has been a good thread.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Big B on September 20, 2012, 08:51:56 PM
Post by: Big B on September 20, 2012, 08:51:56 PM
Quote from: thewestie;398734
I can show you some pics of what I did to keep NHRA happy and I kept the solenoid in the stock location and went with a New style mini torque starter the more you look on the net the more ways your gonna find to do it.
I'd love to see some pics of your setup. I've looked at quite a few, and so far moving the solenoid seems like the best option, and is what I'm going to do, until I see a better setup that doesn't involve a 25ft long 0ga positive battery cable running through the car. I can always switch to 2ga instead of 4ga for the starter wire. I'm looking to stick with the stock starter for now as well.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 20, 2012, 09:02:55 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 20, 2012, 09:02:55 PM
Sorry to say you are way under capacity with a 4 gauge cable. Maybe a 4 banger can get away with that small of a cable. I dont understand you logic on having a heavy cable. And you will need at least 18' plus or minus to move it to the trunk. Better rethink that wire size. just saying!!!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86T-bird on September 20, 2012, 09:04:37 PM
Post by: 86T-bird on September 20, 2012, 09:04:37 PM
There are a few ways of doing it!
To be NHRA legal requires an approved battery box or fire wall, shut off switch on the positive lead and when the switch is turned off, the engine dies. This means the alternator must disconnect too, or the car will continue to run (the alternator runs the car, the battery starts it).
This arrangement can create issues which may fry electronics (as in an EFI computer), due to voltage spikes. In addition: in a rear collision, the switch; with it's exposed positive leads will likely ground to the body, creating a fire hazard. But if you need to be NHRA approved, you gotta do it (or find a way to cheat...).
If you're not concerned with NHRA, a way considered safer; is to mount a solenoid at the trunk mounted battery (even on the battery box). The only wire which does not have the ability to have fused protection is the heavy wire, which serves to power the starter. The only time you need such a heavy wire is when the starter is engaged. By using a trunk mounted solenoid, the heavy cable only has power when the starter is engaged, thus minimizing the chance of fire in the event of a dead short of the heavy cable.
A wire must be run from the alternator to the battery to keep it charged, but does not require a large gauge. Once the car is started, the alternator runs the electrical system, there is no need for heavy cable for this task. This wire must have a fuseable link to protect against overload (TOM has a great thread on fuseable links).
A cable runs from the alternator to a connection block to run the accessories (located in the engine compartment).
Should you wish to have an external battery switch, running it through the negative lead (grounding to the body) will minimize the chance of an electronics destroying voltage spike (though the switch will not shut off a running car) and in the event of a rear collision there is NO potential for a short.
I have my Mustang wired per NHRA specs (it's primary purpose is driving to and from the drag strip). The Thunderbird is wired per the second description.
This will probably lead to a bit more discussion!
To be NHRA legal requires an approved battery box or fire wall, shut off switch on the positive lead and when the switch is turned off, the engine dies. This means the alternator must disconnect too, or the car will continue to run (the alternator runs the car, the battery starts it).
This arrangement can create issues which may fry electronics (as in an EFI computer), due to voltage spikes. In addition: in a rear collision, the switch; with it's exposed positive leads will likely ground to the body, creating a fire hazard. But if you need to be NHRA approved, you gotta do it (or find a way to cheat...).
If you're not concerned with NHRA, a way considered safer; is to mount a solenoid at the trunk mounted battery (even on the battery box). The only wire which does not have the ability to have fused protection is the heavy wire, which serves to power the starter. The only time you need such a heavy wire is when the starter is engaged. By using a trunk mounted solenoid, the heavy cable only has power when the starter is engaged, thus minimizing the chance of fire in the event of a dead short of the heavy cable.
A wire must be run from the alternator to the battery to keep it charged, but does not require a large gauge. Once the car is started, the alternator runs the electrical system, there is no need for heavy cable for this task. This wire must have a fuseable link to protect against overload (TOM has a great thread on fuseable links).
A cable runs from the alternator to a connection block to run the accessories (located in the engine compartment).
Should you wish to have an external battery switch, running it through the negative lead (grounding to the body) will minimize the chance of an electronics destroying voltage spike (though the switch will not shut off a running car) and in the event of a rear collision there is NO potential for a short.
I have my Mustang wired per NHRA specs (it's primary purpose is driving to and from the drag strip). The Thunderbird is wired per the second description.
This will probably lead to a bit more discussion!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 20, 2012, 09:21:26 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 20, 2012, 09:21:26 PM
You think 1ga is too big for the long cable? I figure if you're talking about potential sustained charging current over 100 amps over 15+ feet, a large cable is the best way to not only minimize losses (resistance) but also to keep the cable cool. If you're sticking with the stock monster direct drive starter, you're going to want the extra capacity. At least that's how it seems to me.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 20, 2012, 10:03:53 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 20, 2012, 10:03:53 PM
So, I will need 1 gauge wire for the starter. I have a mini-starter that uses a negative for that, and a small positive wire (maybe 10 gauge) that connects to my solenoid. So. I only need 1 gauge to reach my starter. If I put my battery box on the trunk shelf (for lack of a better name) over to the right side, will it really need 15'-18' of cable? Like I said before, I had already ordered some Taylor braided 4 gauge cables thinking I was going to keep the battery up front. Could I use the 4 gauge hooked up to my starter negative and connect it to my relay negative post being the need for current is much less? I only have one other wire to connect and that's a small (maybe 10 gauge) positive that hooks up my 6A MSG box. I read an article that said that Lowe's sells 1 gauge and 2 gauge cable for cheap. Is that an alternative to use? I'm with you "TheFoeYouKnow", this thread has really been a good one! Not to mention I really don't want to fry my computer or torch my car.... go figure.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Chrome on September 20, 2012, 11:03:09 PM
Post by: Chrome on September 20, 2012, 11:03:09 PM
I hate to post what other people have posted, but.... If it were me, I would leave the starter solenoid and alt wiring alone. I would use the biggest friggin wire I could find to run from the front to the battery. It would have to be ran inside the car to protect it. Careful to rout it away from anything sharp. Make sure it does not rub anywhere. A battery enclosure that is fastened down with an external vent would be a must for safety sake. I would also do whatever is possible to keep battery acid from ever reaching the trunk. Starter wire could be left factory. However, a little larger one would be even better. Larger starter cable is a good idea even without battery re-location. :2c:
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 05:54:53 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 05:54:53 AM
86 it seems like you dont know how to do this!!! What do you mean by the NEG CABLE TO THE SOLENOID??? I am missing something here or you are confused on how to do this!!! You are complicating this and it is the easiest thing in the world to do. Mount a battery in the trunk. Ground it to a thick portion of the body. Run a 1-2 gauge cable from the positive post to the existing solenoid. Then ground the engine to the body with a heavy gauge wire. If less than 10 inches the engine to body ground can be a number 4 Gauge wire. But feeding a number 4 Gauge as the main battery feed is way to small.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 06:11:42 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 06:11:42 AM
CHROME look at the positive cable!!! Protected as i invented this 45 years ago. You have to protect the pos cable and route it safely. Normally on full frame cars i install it inside the frame. On Monolithic cars i normally run it inside the car. Either way the POS cable has to be protected. By the way that cable is a 2/0 and the ground is a 3/0
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-1.jpg)
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-1.jpg)
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: jcassity on September 21, 2012, 06:15:47 AM
Post by: jcassity on September 21, 2012, 06:15:47 AM
makes sense to me, too easy
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 11:14:47 AM
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 11:14:47 AM
I think I understand, but I better make sure. Battery is in back, positive cable (18' of 1 gauge wire) on battery goes to solenoid (route this wire under car), I also hook up my small #10 gauge positive from the starter to my solenoid, positive should be complete. The negative on battery is grounded to chassis in back (#2 gauge) , battery is now complete. The negative on solenoid has three wires connected two small negative wires,(alternator and one other) and my (#2 gauge) that I hook up to the engine block. So, I have two positive wires and three negative wires hooked up to the relay (relay is now done). I will add a ground strap at this point from the engine block and connect it to the chassis. Also here I connect another (#2 gauge) to starter. I am NOT going to move anything other than my battery (solenoid stays put). I hope this makes sense to you guys! Thanks!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 11:17:12 AM
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 11:17:12 AM
Oh, I forgot to ask Tom, is that 18' of hose you use to protect the positive cable to the solenoid? Looks good!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 21, 2012, 11:52:36 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 21, 2012, 11:52:36 AM
Mostly makes sense, except that as far as I know, there are no negative cables attached to any of the solenoids. I'll post a diagram with what I think you're talking about and you can tell me what I've got that's different from what you're saying.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Chrome on September 21, 2012, 12:17:30 PM
Post by: Chrome on September 21, 2012, 12:17:30 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;398775
CHROME look at the positive cable!!! Protected as i invented this 45 years ago. You have to protect the pos cable and route it safely. Normally on full frame cars i install it inside the frame. On Monolithic cars i normally run it inside the car. Either way the POS cable has to be protected. By the way that cable is a 2/0 and the ground is a 3/0
Looks good Tom. I wasn't trying to argue or anything. I was just saying what I would do. I agree with everything you have posted on this. Putting the cable in a rubber hose is a great idea.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 21, 2012, 12:37:14 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 21, 2012, 12:37:14 PM
Ok, stock vs. my suggestion.
What I suggest uses the least amount of large cable and uses much of what you already have. The factory starter cable stays only it moves from one solenoid post to the other, and attaches to the large post on a mini starter, you add a 12ga wire from the solenoid stud you moved the starter cable off of to the small post (or tab) on the mini starter. You route the new battery cable from the trunk to the large post of the starter (where the stock cable is now also), and you move your alternator output cable from the main solenoid to the large post of the starter (where the battery cable and the stock starter cable are at).
Done.
The battery now makes it's engine bay junction at the starter (resulting in a shorter cable) the alternator cable is connected more directly to the battery, and power goes up the the old junction at the old solenoid, feeding the rest of the car. Minimal changes. If anyone can point out errors in this method, please feel free, but be nice because we're trying to help somebody, not bash each other.
What I suggest uses the least amount of large cable and uses much of what you already have. The factory starter cable stays only it moves from one solenoid post to the other, and attaches to the large post on a mini starter, you add a 12ga wire from the solenoid stud you moved the starter cable off of to the small post (or tab) on the mini starter. You route the new battery cable from the trunk to the large post of the starter (where the stock cable is now also), and you move your alternator output cable from the main solenoid to the large post of the starter (where the battery cable and the stock starter cable are at).
Done.
The battery now makes it's engine bay junction at the starter (resulting in a shorter cable) the alternator cable is connected more directly to the battery, and power goes up the the old junction at the old solenoid, feeding the rest of the car. Minimal changes. If anyone can point out errors in this method, please feel free, but be nice because we're trying to help somebody, not bash each other.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 12:49:33 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 12:49:33 PM
Thanks Chrome i know that is what you meant. No Worry's.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 12:51:48 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 12:51:48 PM
FOE i cant figure out what he means about the GROUND AT THE SOLENOID!!!!! Their is none???? Naturally the inherent ground when it is screwed to the BODY OF THE CAR for the pull in coil section of the solenoid. Better make a schematic for him as to the proper HOOK UP!!!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 21, 2012, 01:11:41 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 21, 2012, 01:11:41 PM
I suspect he's calling them negative because the stock cables are black, I noticed this when I posted diagrams a couple posts back.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 04:54:34 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 04:54:34 PM
Sorry guy's I was outside hooking up my starter. I haven't stated moving my battery yet, I need more cable. Starter solenoid has two bolts one at each side and a small one between them where I hook up my starter positive (10 gauge). My solenoid is in the stock position, mounted on the left side next to the battery. On the solenoid post closest to the battery is where I hook up the positive battery connector and my wire to my MSD box. On the other side of the solenoid relay are the 3ea. black wires. One large goes to the engine block one to the alternator, and the other (I think) goes to instruments. The large wire on my starter goes to the negative post on my battery. That's the way my car has always been set up. I haven't had time to look over Foe's schematic, I will do that now. Thanks!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 05:05:34 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 05:05:34 PM
Guys, tell me if I'm wrong... It looks like my car has the alternator hooked up to starter relay (10 gauge positive), and your schematic has it hooked up to the starter . Also, your negative battery post goes straight to the chassis, mine goes straight to the starter.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Big B on September 21, 2012, 08:09:32 PM
Post by: Big B on September 21, 2012, 08:09:32 PM
I'm trying to appease the NHRA, so they will let me run my car at the 1/4mi track we have here. Otherwise I wouldn't care. I think 4ga will be fine for the starter, since it will never be a continuous usage. It only runs for about 1.5 seconds before the engine fires up. If the motor doesn't fire up within 5 seconds of cranking, I always know to stop cranking anyway, because something is wrong. This is a 2.3T with a n/a head on it resulting in 9:1 compression, it's not that hard to turn over. I could only see the 4ga wire overheating if you are cranking over and over for 5-10 minutes or more at a time, which I will never do. I'm also gonna run a 2ga Negative ground cable directly from the battery to the stock engine block ground point. Not interested in having a shiznitload of radio interference to deal with, by taking the easy way out there.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 21, 2012, 08:30:47 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on September 21, 2012, 08:30:47 PM
@86, In the first diagram it shows that the battery grounds to the body and to the engine. The main ground can be anywhere on the engine, out of curiosity, what engine do you have? I assumed you had a 5.0 when I posted diagrams, and I know that the 3.8 and 5.0 cars have the starter on the opposite side of the car from the battery, but if you have a 2.3 we could be on different pages here.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 09:52:51 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 21, 2012, 09:52:51 PM
BOTTOM LINE a 4 gauge cable of that length is way to small. Why would anyone use a 4 gauge cable when a number one cable is a few bucks more to buy. Once again even with a 2.3 i use a number 2 gauge and that is marginal. Now if you are using welding cable that is a little different. Welding cable can handle more current because it has finer strands of wire to make it a number 4 compared to automotive or marine cable. Just saying.
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 11:41:41 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 21, 2012, 11:41:41 PM
I personally am convinced on the issue of using #2 & #3 gauge wire. I would feel safer that way. Foe, my car has a 5.0 engine, but you schematic looks different from how my car is set up. Maybe they did it differently at the Van puppies plant where my car is from. I do know it's been running well for 26 years with no electrical problems. I will probably set my car up just like it is because I am not going to change anything except the battery location and gauge of wire. I will have more grounds than is probably necessary, but that's alright. #2 gauge from the positive battery terminal to starter, and #3 gauge for grounds. Don't worry, I will let you guy's know when I start that project, it should be soon. Thanks!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 22, 2012, 09:11:10 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 22, 2012, 09:11:10 AM
#3 NEVER HEARD OF IT ?????? dID YOU MAKE A TYPO. i AM THINKING YOU MEAN #4 ???
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 22, 2012, 11:11:32 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 22, 2012, 11:11:32 AM
I think he was referring to 02 and 03. Give the guy a break, it sounds like he is on a steeeep learning curve.
Darren
Darren
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 22, 2012, 11:24:08 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 22, 2012, 11:24:08 AM
One other note even though it should be a whole other thread, do not ground your radio with the ground wire coming off the back of the head unit if you have a fender mount antenna. When you plug the fender mounted antenna into the head unit it will ground the head unit thus eliminating a ground loop. We did it this way for years when I worked at the HiFi Shop and they still do it to this day. The only other source of motor whine will be running the RCA cables near a power wire but if the RCA's are shielded like they should be then even then its not a problem. With all that said this is from my years of experience with car audio but there are all kinds of ways to do things and this certainly is not the only way or the only thing a person would have to do to get rid of the dreaded "motor whine".
Darren
Darren
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on September 22, 2012, 12:45:52 PM
Post by: 88 Blackbird 5.0 on September 22, 2012, 12:45:52 PM
As always Darren, you"re a wealth of information Buddy. :)
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 22, 2012, 03:02:37 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 22, 2012, 03:02:37 PM
02 & 03 cable...(lol) Good to see you guy's feel comfortable enough to give me sh_t! Aerocoupe, that's not a learning curve, that just old, tired and wore out (lol). Last Tuesday, I forgot my girl's birthday... I worked on the car all day. She has no problem reminding me that I OWE HER. So, anyway, have you guy's seen another Cougar wired the way mine is? I have never had a problem with my radio picking up any noise and I do have a fender mount antenna. So, I never got answer about using Lowe's eighty some cent's a foot cable. Is it alright to use or is it rated differently? Areocoupe, steeeep, you have no idea....some days!!!
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 22, 2012, 03:13:28 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 22, 2012, 03:13:28 PM
I use welding cable from a local welding supply. I have to run to Lowes here in a couple hours so I will check out what they have and let you know if it is the same thing, close to, or not close at all to what I use.
Darren
Darren
Title: Battery relocation
Post by: 86cougar on September 25, 2012, 08:26:25 PM
Post by: 86cougar on September 25, 2012, 08:26:25 PM
I want to "Thanks You" guy's for setting me straight on my wiring! I had it all messed up. I think I have been working too many hours on it lately. You were right Tom, it was so easy and I didn't realize what I was doing until I sat down and looked at the schematic. Some thing still isn't right, so I'll post a new thread.