Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

ok experts,    on my 88 TC the abs and brake light came on today, stayed on for a few miles, then went off, ( brakes seemed fine)  then came back on and a short time after that  i have nearly no brakes with a super hard pedal. all while on a road trip on the city highway.  white knuck trip home after i verified i had fluid.
  so my electric brake booster must not be working?    any ideas on testing procudure? are these known to fail eventually or do i have a relay issue maybe...  I see no fuses other than fuse links at the solenoid, and they seem fine.  thanks for the help

to me it sounds like a relay issue, the relay is located under the vacuum tree and it is the first relay you will see.  I have done away with ABS completely in both of my 88 TC's and gone with a power brake setup.  very easy to do and only takes an afternoon if you have access to a good parts car.  I recently did mine from an 86 cougar, I took the booster, master, proportioning block and hard lines going from the master to the block plus you will need the one from the block to the drivers front wheel.  now if you want to go this route be prepared to change a few fittings and flare some tubing.  its really an easy swap. Autozone had all of the fittings I needed and rented the flaring tool to me, just take the block and they should be able to fix you right up.

Yep, it is a relay that turns on the abs pump.  I had the very same thing happen to me while in stop and go traffic (Sevierville / Pigeon Forge , TN).  I thanked God that mine was a manual transmission and for giving me diligence in keeping things like my e-brake in proper working order.  I was able to drive her home (about 40 miles) using backroads, replace the relay and go on to work and be only about 20 minutes late.

is it the same relay that powers the abs and the booster?

You might also want to check the IGNITION SWITCH ALSO. Does other things in the car not work. Like the blower motor etc. Just a thought!!!

You don't have a chassis guy at your shop that goes back that far?  Cuz that's your best bet from my POV.  Otherwise, here's the diagrams, check your powers and grounds, I know what the salt does here, so check your connectors, too.  Suspect the pump or related wiring/components.  Your accumulator isn't staying/being charged.  Hope this is helpful.

Mine was the hydraulic pump motor relay, but like any electrical problem, you need to half split as much as you can and then do a linear trace to find the culprit.  As an example, I would check the input to the Hydraulic Pump Motor Relay (T/Y) and the output (GY/R).    If the input voltage (T/Y) is not battery voltage check both sides of Fuse Link "S".  If Input (T/Y) has battery voltage and the output (GY/R) has battery voltage, then the relay relay is good and the motor itself is the likely culprit. If the input (T/Y) has battery voltage, but the output (GY/R) is not battery voltage, check the relay trigger wire (GY/Y) for battery voltage.  If 12 volts, chances are better than average that the relay is bad.  If the relay trigger wire (GY/Y) does not have battery voltage, check the ignition switch.

wow thanks for the info guys. i was able to locate the relay on the firewall, the 2c013 one . i thumped on that a couple times and it came to life.  so i unplugged it and figured out which ones to jumper to bypass the relay.  i did that and it started pumping up. so i will look for a new relay tomorrow.  what a great forum we have here!

If you "thumped" it a couple of times, then it either has at least some life in it, or the connections to the relay are the problem.  Try cleaning the connector contacts and the relay contacts.  I wouldn't drive the car with the relay bypassed, as the hydraulic motor is controlled by the anti-lock pressure switch applying the ground to the hydraulic pump motor relay and avoiding over-pressurizing the ABS system, e.g. it turn the pump on when it needs to build pressure and turns it off when pressure is within norms.  Bypassing the relay will either blow out the seals in your ABS system somewhere, or burn up the pump.  Don't do it... as tempting as it might be, troubleshooting is one thing, bypassing a critical safety system is something else.

http://www.turbotbird.com/techinfo/TEVES%20II%20ELECTRO-HYDRAULIC%20BRAKING%20SYSTEM%2087-88%20TCs.htm

This link has good info/testing procedures.

oh no, i am not driving it until i can buy a new relay. its 25yrs old, i will change it out, and clean & regrease all connections before installing.

Yep, very close to exactly what I said. ;)

you dont need brakes all they do is slow you down.

If the pump motor does not work their will be no brake assist. Those relays go bad all the time. And the new ones are made in CHINA and they are not exactly PRISTINE. A Bosch HD relay should be substituted for a better relay setup. Just a thought!!!

He runs the parts dept. I'd say if it took the last one 25 years to fail, then another one of whatever it came with is probably the best choice.  If I'm not terribly mistaken, the original Ford pn relays were and still are Bosch parts. I've got 20 of them in my box, I'll check them when I get in this morning.

I guess I'll have to take that one back.  Most of my spares say Made in USA or Made in Canada.  I only have one that says Bosch and it came out of a contour.

check out my diy  link below, i put in the EVTM page a troubleshooting process but glad  you found your issue.

i ordered a new relay today. the ford one is discontinued, but i found a NOS one at another ford dealer. one from napa or carquest were a couple days away too and similar in price. so it looks like i am driving my py truck for a little while longer...

That is what i was trying to tell you in a nice way. My sales people have a better relay for that application. But what the heck do i KNOW!!!!

If for some reason FOE does not understand that those old relays were coated with some sort of expensive alloy. Not sure what it was but it kept the contacts clean. Today's relays are not as good because the coating is not their. Hazardous waste i am told.

tt

the old F19Z  green fuel pump relays, got superceded by ford a few years back into a cheap chinese generic relay, they even changed the base number from 9345 to 14n135. and they were JUNK. i wouldnt even sell them to walk in customers, i stocked a premium NAPA relay. so i agree there is a vast difference in quality of relays,  i figure i cant go wrong with OE if its still avail ( like mentioned, it lasted 25 yrs) . if i couldnt have gotten OE, i may have tried an aftermarket one for now, but have started looking for a used oe also!  I should get it tomorrow, and be able to install it tomorrow evening.

You see 351 that is where me and my staff stay up nights thinking about modifications. Example the fuel pump assembly on GM cars(early ones ) lasted forever other than the FUEL PUMPS. Gm has a replacement and so does the aftermarket. But WAIT!!! It sucks the CHINA unit fails all the time. So with GM not making the unit and the vehicles OBSOLETE and old they do not give a shiznit!!! So my mind has to take over. My TYPHOON is a real nice TRUCK and as fast as HELL. But no pump assembly available. So my brain came up with a MOD. But how many people out their can do mods??? Clearly people on this site can and they do a great job!! But the average guy and local shops do not have a clue. The shops tell customers they replaced the entire unit and that is all that is available. Then they shrug their shoulders. Or some tell customers to see RENZO or others with VISION ON THESE ISSUES. So here is the fix below. So as 351 points out the replacement relay is JUNK and FOE does not understand things wont last any more as was built years ago a new and heavy duty relay replacement was necessary in my view. Or better YET remove the ABS as it is not something worth saving anyway. Thanks

The problem????

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/008-12.jpg)


The FIX!!!

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/011-5.jpg)

Move the grounds and double up on the connectors for the PUMP!!!

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/013-1.jpg)

wow.    just to clarify i was saying OE not FOE

There you have it, I guess.  Alright Tom, I agree, you are the only guy who knows anything about anything.  Is there a place where I can come worship you?

Enough, you two.  It doesn't have to be a g contest every time you both chime in on a topic.

You're right, Chuck, I'm out.

Lets not get crazy i was not being negative. Just pointing out how replacement parts can be superseded and junk. Not trying to out do anyone. Here is another example. When doing a final drive we always use TIMKEN BEARINGS. The Chinese bearings are junk. Just another example of how parts change and as consumers and car builders we need to also know what parts to stay away from as well as fixing cars. Another thing is seals. We always use factory seals like PINION SEALS ETC. Sorry for the confusion

tom said,, screw that connector! solder the  thing.

Timken is still king for the moment.. hard to specify a "do not substitute" when ordering though. 
My Ghia bearings are made in germany,,forget the name but its an odd ball name.

The coating on the relays is CPC (Corrosion Prevention Compound) similar to the milspec variety of protection. 
For snits and grins, i may just take an old OEM Bosch apart and lay it beside a china equal unit to see the visual differences.

I had hear of sh*ts and giggles before and used it myself.  I love learning new things every day.  I think I'll start using snits and giggles in polite company from now on, thanks.

relay came in today, installed it, now brakes work, happy daily driver again. thanks for the help guys!

J i did not know the name of that compound or coating Thanks!! I do know using dialectic is out of the question. We tried that on the ABS sensors as instructed by the dealers on frieghts. We got hammered with issues . We now cant use any compound on those connectors. The coating i am talking about is on the relay contacts!!! One of our vendors explained the older relays had a plating of lets say silver on the contacts that is not used any more.  Normally we always solder everything. But the OE is instructed to not solder any more for a couple of years. A few years back i had an argument with one of the authors of Motor Magazine about this. He claimed that solder less connectors are far superior to soldered connections??? So as you know me i mailed him a dozen failed factory crimped connectors that were melted at the crimps. Never heard a single thing from him on this subject again. As usual the author put his head in the sand. In the shop we see bad connections all the time from solder less connectors. I was thinking of making a post on relay and connector devices and their safe amperage capacity. Basically relays are marked like the BOSCH 75A But we never run them any where near that rating. The 5 pr0ng relays are rated at 25 & 30. Once again we never run them any where near the rated capacity. I got in a bind a year ago by wiring 2 fans on one 5 pr0ng and the relay held up perfectly but the fuse holder melted. The car overheated at a show because of this and my name is now MUD. And to top it off the FAN manufacturer provided the fuse holder in the KIT!!! And the setup was like $2000.00 BUCKS. It was a duel fan BE COOL fan assembly. I called them and as usual they said the fuse holder was adequate and they did not have any issues with it. Very embarrassing to have a car at a show with my name on it do this !!!. By the way the fuse holder was rated at 40A a weather pack covered unit and failed at 18A. So i never assume anything any more and i am in the process of complying  a list of connectors and relay capacities. Maybe you can chime in on this problem. And do some research on amp capacity's as i am trying to do. It just might be the materials the vendors are using. And as usual the salesmen cant contact the makers as they most likely are in CHINA. Thanks