Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

David, the MN12 thunderbirds did get the HO but it does not apply to this particular car.

If he wants the next owner to be meticulous about preserving the car, then I'm sure that same person would be meticulous in vetting it first.

So i found a really nice 83 Heritage for sale on CL and emailed the seller to gain some clarifications:  Here is what he represents the car to be.

"All factory original". Here are my 3 issues with the ad>

1. The car has 10 holes on it which look nice but were not original to a 83.
2. The "factory" HO Motor.
3. The "factory vendor sunroof".

Here is the ad:
1983 Ford Thunderbird Heritage Edition

This is a real sweetheart of a car. A collector's item that is all factory original with 68,000 gentle miles. This car has all of the Heritage Edition upgrades- Power Windows, Tilt Wheel, Premium Sound, Factory Vendor Sunroof, Power Seats, Power Mirrors Cornering Lamps etc all in working order. This model features the HO 302 cid Fuel Injected V-8 , Automatic Overdrive Trans. This is a really nice car that has been driven. It is not concourse perfect but it is in exceptional condition and a great testimony to the quality that was put in to this edition. 1983 was the first year to bring the T-Bird to this body style and was also the year of "Ford -- Quality is Job One" the assembly line workers signed the panels of this car during the build process. Asking $4500. . .reasonable offers accepted (Eight 5 Zero) Seven Two Eight-6 Four Four Zero Call or Text for Details. You may also reply to this ad with e-mail.


Here is my email and his reply:
hi there,

Great looking 83.  A few questions……  You claim the car is all factory original…..here are my questions….

1. The 10 hole rims look great but were not available in 83, do you have the original wheels?

2. There was no "HO" motor ever for the Thunderbird, so i assume this is a V8 EFI car?

3. What exactly is a factory "vendor" sunroof?  I know a bit about these cars and there were factory sunroofs or aftermarket ones.  Do you mean this was installed by a Ford dealer after purchase?

Thanks for your time and attention, and do you have interior/engine and trunk pics as well?
Best regards,
David


His reply:
David,
thank you for your interest in the car. I will do my best to answer your questions / comments. I do have the factory order sheet and invoice for this vehicle which sheds light on it's pedigree and history.
This car has only had 2 owners....the previous owner and us. We bought it from the original owners son when the father passed away last year. The Father / Owner was a civil engineer and very particular about details. We kept the Dpt. of Defense parking sticker on the windshield as homage to the owner. As I have stated this car was a custom order over and beyond the fact that a Heritage Edition was already a custom order.  We also have to factor in that this was 1983 and not today. I was around dealerships in this year and even  before too so I know that records and history are not as good as they might be now with all of the electronic storage and archival functions.
 
1. Wheels on the vehicle are, according to invoice and orig. owners Son, factory wheels that came in "Std" measurement. Father did not like or accept "metric" sized tires and asked that these wheels be installed  so he could continue to use "American" tire sizes (ie 15 inch H60 etc  not P225/70R/15 ). I can not say if these were put on in Michigan or at the Dealership but the sales invoice makes mention of wheel upgrade. These could have come from any other vehicle in the lineup that Ford made with the same wheel bolt pattern etc.
 
2. There were 2 302 V-8 options in 1983  one in the 130 horse range and one in the 158 range.  In my opion neither is High Output ( I don't blink or consider something HO until 400+ hp). However, this is the 158hp engine that was in the "HO" mustangs of that year. This year is the first year to sit on and share the fox body with the mustang. 1984 will find a Lincoln Mark VII that had this engine with HO badging, and pseudo dual cat back exhaust sitting on this platform. But this is the more powerful F.I. 302 ( TBI / CFI ) engine from 1983 and original to the year and vehicle.
 
3. The sun roof shows as a factory option but cut and installed by a Factory vendor. Not by the Dealer. Much like the conversion vans of yesteryear or Shelby or Yenko etc, This was put in from the very beginning and shipped from the factory with this option. Does that make it better or worse, I don't know, but I do know that it does NOT leak, is manual ( thus sunroof) and is a feature of this car.
 
My knowledge of cars from this era and in general is that I am a car guy, but mainly GM. I have dealer experience wirth GM for many years and actually spent time at a Lincoln Mercury shop in the late 80's in the parts and service dept so I have a little bit of knowledge of how things worked then. All of these points that you bring up could very well be dealer ad ons, factory add ons or a blend of both. However, everything discussed here was done at the time of the original sale and not added on by an enthusiast on down the line to ize the car. I know at the dealership where I worked, we put on "carraige roofs" from both the Factory and on the lot via local vendors in 88-89 on Grand Marquis and Contenitals so anything is possible.
 
As far as pictures go, I can take whatever pictures are needed and will do so for any serious buyer. If you are considering this as a purchase, I can assure you that I am just a concerned that the car be purchased by someone who will preserve it for what it is as I am concerned about selling it at all. I have turned down 2 offers strictly on the fact that the potential buyers were going to chop it, put huge wheels on it and pretty much destroy it's heritage ( all puns intended). It is unique by the nature of the Heritage badge and options and should be considered as such. As far as I am concerned if you want to hot rod a 80's t-bird go get a V-6 model and have at it. This is NOT part of the garden variety v-6 t-birds for this, or any year of this body style.  I bought for my wife, who just had to have it, but she has moved on to other toys and distractions and I have been more pre-occupied by motorcycles lately. So I would rather upgrade my toys for once and we decided to put it up for sale. I also have the option to sell it back to the Son.
 
Please let me know if you indeed would like other pictures, and forgive me for asking, but please indicate that you are seriously interested in purchasing this and not just asking for pictures to prove a point or satisfy a curiosity. This my sound rude, and I apologize but I have had some really off the wall reuqests from Craigslist in the past. I am open to working with the "right" buyer on this car so again, if you know what it is, what is should be etc., and wish to preserve or improve it, then I will help in any way possible.
 
Thanks
Jason


My reply:



Hi Jason,
Thanks for your speedy and detailed reply.  Your explanation of the wheels is plausible as the TRX tires have become very costly since the early years of production and they are now cost prohibitive for most people, but just for your knowledge they are not original to the car as they were not available from Ford until 1985.  As for the engine, i maintain 1000% respectfully that there is and never was ever a HO motor for the Thunderbird/Cougar Line-up from 1983-1988. All were EFI Standard V-8 models.  The Thunderbird came with a base V-6 and V-8 Was an option. HO was mustang only.  The Lincoln did get the HO but not thunderbird. Thanks for clearing up the sunroof option as well.  Without seeing the rest of the car its hard for me to say if I'm serious or not, as that has a huge impact on price and desirability.  If its not that much trouble to take 3 or 4 snaps of the other areas, i would appreciate it.  Sounds like a very well loved and cared for Thunderbird.  Thanks once again.
Best,
David


i am awaiting his reply.........

come on now,, ask the one obvious question.

What color are the fuel injectors.
You all know  well ive disected these CFI's to the enth degree and there is absolutly nothing stopping the dealer from "performing and upgrade" to the engine with an H0 CFI.  That would have been the limit to the HO upgrade so to speak unless also he obtained the intake as well to completement the additional runner cfm.

I would bet that during that time, he asked for and paid for what he got....
Wheel upgrade (yes were very common back then that the tires being metric the dealership "could" swap out.
CFI upgrade, very very pluasable so in all rights, the both of you may be right but perception is reality. His perception is since day 1 of purchase the car has all these goodies, hes not accurate in using the term "factory".

so, whatcha think about this ?  sound reasonable?  I bet he dealer did the bare min ho upgrade.

heck, just one picture in good quality of the engine might even show the plug wire routing and that might point to perhaps even a cam upgrade so he got the whole deal to convert.
a vew visual tale tale signs could confirm he does have a "dealer" upgrade.

having the documenation showing a dealer did  this would likely make the car more unique in its own heritage catagory i would think.  A dealer wont do xyz unless the warranty would still cover it.

Regardless if the dealer did or did not "upgrade" parts of the motor, his contention is that the HO Motor came factory, and that there were in fact 2 V8 options for Thunderbird in 1983.  This is wrong and he is misrepresenting the car.  The same way he implied the Sunroof was a Factory "vendor" installed item, which is clearly aftermarket and the roof was hacked.

I also had to laugh when seller mentioned he didn't consider an engine to be "high output" unless it was around 400 horsepower or whatnot...

This is wrong and he is misrepresenting the car.

you just said what i said

Ask him for a few underhood shots.  Particularly the distributor and wire routing (without showing that you're looking at the firing order difference) and one of the head casting numbers.

now hold on a minute, this may or may not apply here but.....  my 79 t-top bird.  is a "factory vendor" installed item done by Cars & Concepts they are shown in the factory owners manual and in the sales brocure and on the ford 999 report.  Ask him if he has the original window sticker showing these items and also verify that the sunroof was or wasnt in the owners manual/sales brocure.

does he list any pictures or did I miss that part?

Does appear to have T-Bird center caps.  Maybe accessory wheels?

The 83 CFI would be EEC III. Did Ford make a HO version of the EEC III?
My 84 shop manual shows the 84 Mustang HO has a 4180-C 4V carburetor.

There you go guys, no HO CFI until the EEC-IV in '84 & that was for LSC Lincolns & automatic Stangs in '84 & '85... 5-speed Stangs were 4-bbl carbed...

It being EEC-III(or was originally), I'd run away from it...

you could get the cfi HO in the LTD LX in '84. also was there a 15 inch wheel option for a 83 bird?