Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 01:14:01 AM
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 01:14:01 AM
I've had a torn down 5.0 HO sitting in the garage since last october, and it's time I started doing SOMETHING to it. I had in my mind I wanted about 450-500hp out of it...no NOS, no supercharger. I heard a lot of different things in other forums-some say its nuts, you cant do it, some say you can, some say you need a supercharger or stroker, and others say if you DO get that much out of it, the block will end up cracking. I WAS going to do a 347, but a local builder told me its a bad idea, because it will just break. Here's what I was thinking:
- Stock bore - Forged crank, rods, and flat top pistons - Aluminum ford racing heads, machined - Big cam (NO idea what grind) - tubular gt40 intake manifold - equal length BBK shorty headers (local guy told me theyre better for low end torque) - BBK fender exit intake - x-pipe
Anyone on here ever done any performance builds? I've never done ANY engine building, so I'm just going by what I've read right about now lol. Help would be appreciated
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: FirstBird on August 26, 2012, 01:19:12 AM
450 is accomplish-able N/A but it's kind of to the blow up point of the 302, If you're looking for that much power I'd recommend a 351w based motor since they can handle 700ish hp. And it's much easier in my opinion to reach your goal. Just my opinion.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 26, 2012, 01:43:06 AM
It isn't as much the HP as it is RPMs that destroyed the POS 5.0 blocks, 450Hp NA isn't practical... It'd take spinning it to 7000 plus to get that amount of power and would be almost undrivable on the street unless it was in a stick car... With the cam required, probably would not idle below 1200-1400 RPMs...
I know a guy who races vintage SCCA and has split a 5.0 Ford Racing block spinning it to around 7600 RPMs...
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: T-BirdX3 on August 26, 2012, 02:02:19 AM
^hahaahaa that picture is full of awesomeness!
Can't help with your build but do wish you the best on it! :D
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 04:06:55 AM
So I guess that means it is possible but would most likely overload the block and destroy it..ruining all the work.. I had considered a 351...but since A) its bigger (will it fit properly?), B) already bought a 5.0 and C) wanted to keep with the factory options, and use a 5.0 badge, I kind of shyed away. Why is it that the 5.0 is weak but the 5.7 is stronger, if they're both ford Windsor blocks? The thing that confuses me also is the Modular engine they used to make the new 5.0 and the ford GT engine, they pound 550 horse through them and they're about the same size as the windsor, plus the GT is an aluminum block....are they just built structurally stronger?
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 04:17:39 AM
Is there a rev limiter that keeps the stock engine's rpm at 4-5 grand, or whatever the stock redline is, or does it rev to a certain point based on the power? Might be a dumb question, but I'm new to engine building lol.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: 86T-bird on August 26, 2012, 05:22:45 AM
A simpler way to get 420 hp out of 5.0 is to swap in the Coyote engine.:D It just might be cheaper too!
Though that answer may seem flippant, it points out the level of technology necessary to achieve a large amount of power from just 5 liters (and Coyote engine's power level is a bit less than your goal).
The parts listed might provide a little north of 300 RWHP. Depending on cam choice. If a "big cam" is chosen, power & drivability may be questionable.:hick:
There are two things necessary to make big power out of a (relatively) small engine: Air Flow and RPM. -well actually that's what it takes to make big power from any size engine-
Do a search on the net to see what the cylinder heads flow and the RPM range of the Coyote engine (ignore the phased cam timing and the greater sophistication of the engine control system [in comparison to the EEC IV]).
So with that in mind, let's review the parts listed:
Stock roller 8.2" block: It has serious issues with RPM above 6,000 and substantially increased power levels (these blocks were initially developed for power levels of 120 and peaked in 1993 in the Mustang Cobra at 235).
Do a search in the engine tech section for pics of the stock roller block in comparison to an early non roller and aftermarket blocks. There is info there on inherent structural issues which result in the above pic of a split block.
Forged rotating assembly in a stock block: The stock rotating assembly (assuming an HO assembly, which has forged pistons) can take more power than the stock block. Given the weakness of the block, spending money on a forged assembly are funds not well spent. Forged assembly = good block (ie. aftermarket).
GT40 intake: This is great street intake. It's peak power is 5,500 RPM, well below the 7,000 needed for 450 HP n/a out of a 5.0. For that, think Spyder or an Edelbrock EFI 5.0 (w/a matching 90MM T/Body)
Equal length shorty headers: A great set of tubes for a mild street combination. These will mate well with the RPM range of the GT40 intake. Big power needs big full length tubes, think 1 3/4" to 2" with a matching large full flowing exhaust system.
Machined Aluminum Ford Racing Heads: There is quite a range of "Ford Racing Heads" and an even greater range of what the term "machined" may entail. Ford heads are book ended by some great street heads and true race heads, with quite a few in between. A pair of GT40X falls into the range of street head, even "machined". They can be a great match to the intake and headers mentioned on the parts list.
For 450/500 hp, a head should flow ~300 CFM on the intake and 200+ CFM on the exhaust.
X-Pipe: X, H, pro-chamber, they aren't a whole lot different at the high horse power/RPM level. They can impact low speed torque on a street engine with a power peak of ~5,500.
Cam: Big cams are not compatible with the parts listed. Cam selection matched to the rest of the combination results in the greatest satisfaction in regard to power, mileage and drivability. "Big cams" are miserable in a mis-matched combo! With the right heads (read big) a big cam may not be required to meet the 450/500 goal, though the lobes would be aggressive with a supporting valve train capable of controlling valve float at high RPM.
The majority of the parts listed above may make for a great first engine build, provided power expectations are realistic.
If 450/500 n/a horsepower is a solid goal: Set a realistic budget. The dollar amount will not be cheap!
Sort out what supporting modification are needed for the power level. Think; brakes (first), suspension, tires (traction will be needed), clutch/converter, transmission, rear end, fuel system and so on...
Good luck on your first engine build!
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Crazy88 on August 26, 2012, 06:18:19 AM
If you are even going to contemplate that much horsepower, I would recommend a solid block, either a Dart Sportsman (http://"http://www.dartheads.com/products/engine-blocks/ford-small-blocks") or World Products Man O' War (http://"http://www.worldcastings.com/products/engine-blocks/small-block-ford-blocks/"). Follow this with a forged and well balanced rotating assembly. For a relatively heavy street car, build with more torque in mind rather than maximum horsepower. Not only will it be more pleasant to live with on the street, but it is torque that will plant your backside firmly in the seat and put the ever lasting grin on your face. ;)
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 26, 2012, 10:03:51 AM
Quote from: Driverguy;396659
Why is it that the 5.0 is weak but the 5.7 is stronger, if they're both ford Windsor blocks?
There is something like 60-70Lbs more iron in the 5.8 block, the roller 5.0 was basically cheapened by cutting weight everywhere possible... Older flat tappet 5.0 blocks weigh 20-25 lbs more and probably live at 500Hp for short intervals...
There are some good aftermarket blocks out there that can be bored & stroked to around 370Cu in(that's 6.0L)and handle 600Hp but they aren't cheap... A 5.8 is a snug fit and require some different pieces(headers, accessory brackets) but the only real issue is hood clearance, most intakes will require a hood scoop...
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: 86T-bird on August 26, 2012, 10:11:28 AM
Quote from: Crazy88;396662
If you are even going to contemplate that much horsepower, I would recommend a solid block, either a Dart Sportsman (http://"http://www.dartheads.com/products/engine-blocks/ford-small-blocks") or World Products Man O' War (http://"http://www.worldcastings.com/products/engine-blocks/small-block-ford-blocks/"). Follow this with a forged and well balanced rotating assembly.
Probably meant to add: With an increased stroke & bore for a 347/363 CI. Then it can do this! ;)
Quote from: Crazy88;396662
For a relatively heavy street car, build with more torque in mind rather than maximum horsepower. Not only will it be more pleasant to live with on the street, but it is torque that will plant your backside firmly in the seat and put the ever lasting grin on your face. ;)
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2012, 11:16:11 AM
Wont happen without a block FAILURE. The higher RPM needed to accomplish 450+ is way to stressful for that block. 400 MAX. You will need at least a DART BLOCK for reliability. And with the poor flow rates of the heads achieving over 450 is going to hard m and expensive !! Those engines just dont breathe good at all !! Just a thought!!!
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: bigbada1 on August 26, 2012, 12:42:48 PM
Im shooting for the 450 mark with my 306 but it will have boost.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Beau on August 26, 2012, 01:43:22 PM
Quote from: Driverguy;396653
I've had a torn down 5.0 HO sitting in the garage since last october, and it's time I started doing SOMETHING to it. I had in my mind I wanted about 450-500hp out of it...no NOS, no supercharger. I heard a lot of different things in other forums-some say its nuts, you cant do it, some say you can, some say you need a supercharger or stroker, and others say if you DO get that much out of it, the block will end up cracking. I WAS going to do a 347, but a local builder told me its a bad idea, because it will just break. Here's what I was thinking:
You can get 500 hp out of a stock bottom end, but it won't last if you beat on it. Also, as mentioned, getting that much NA will be undrivable and also will not last long. Also, if any builder tells you that a 347 will blow up, I'd get the shag out of there and never go back. Lots of guys are running 347, 331, and other stroker packages. I'd also not reasonably expect any kind of big power like that to be reliable with a stock block. In short, why spend 10 grand on internals and run it in a 50 dollar block. Get a Ford Racing block or even one of those trick 4 bolt boss blocks and build with that. Just my opinion..
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 04:51:00 PM
Alright...I guess I should lower my goal to that of around 400-420, something like that lol. As 86 T-bird mentioned...I wanted my build to rival the new 5.0 coyote mustang, because they're running 400+ STOCK, but I guess the modular engine is a more solid structure. And yes, I'd also thought about an aftermarket block. I'm guessing they're build stronger to handle dragsters, but on that note I don't have dragster cash. I read the other day about this budget build for some muscle car mag, they got 398hp and only put in a grand for internals...so with my set up I mentioned I could probably get the 400 mark easily. Another easy question; is it worth boring my motor .030 over, or should I leave it stock?
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 05:01:50 PM
Oh, and also, I was planning on staying with an AOD, freshly rebuilt of course...will that suffice?
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Crazy88 on August 26, 2012, 05:25:05 PM
What are you planning to do with this setup? Drag, burnouts or serious street machine? As I mentioned, the torque numbers are what motivates the car and tends to break things... like the input shaft on the AOD (Ask TurboCoupe50 about that), broken cranks and blocks, twisting chassis, etc. You are NOT gonna see anywhere near Coyote of power out of a normally aspirated small block Ford, using a standard bore and stroke. The small block Ford just doesn't breath well enough, but you don't really need to either. If you effectively double the whopping 155 hp of a stock SO 5.0 liter(302) small block Ford in a reliable and streetable way, you will have more than enough grunt for the street and ought to do pretty well on the strip as well, in a properly prepared race car.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 05:35:05 PM
Not really a drag car, persay. Just a cruiser with a lot of power at the disposal of my right foot, and probably a lot of burnouts lol. How do you effectively boost torque levels?
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2012, 05:44:45 PM
Wind!!!! Or better yet this is what you need 500 RWH NA and with just a cam change and headers and a TUNE. The below engine is what you want!!!
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Crazy88 on August 26, 2012, 05:58:58 PM
Some may disagree, but I would probably recommend a 347 stroker kit, which if memory serves is a .030 overbore. Invest in high quality hardware (ARP) in the bottom end, stepping up to studs for both the main and heads. In addition,have the block both torque and line honed to ensure concentricity and close tolerances with regard to the new stroker crank. The block needs to be de-burred, chamfered and basically race prep'd to get rid of stress risers. The torque will come about based upon the combination of cam grind, ignition, fuel and breathing efficiencies. The cam grind will determine, to a large extent, where in the RPM range, maximum torque will be reached. Most naturally aspirated street engines see service in the 1000-2500 RPM range, so cam selection is critical. I would advise calling the tech line of a name brand cam manufacturer like Crane or Comp-Cams for the most knowledgeable advice, based upon your unique set of needs and desires. I would also recommend a MAF conversion, which will allow you to custom tune the fuel map, timing and a plethora of other settings to optimize both fuel and ignition. Get a decent set of heads, either iron or aluminum for the street and headers of some kind, shorties probably recommended for the street.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Crazy88 on August 26, 2012, 06:02:17 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;396702
Wind!!!! Or better yet this is what you need 500 RWH NA and with just a cam change and headers and a TUNE. The below engine is what you want!!!
As I have said, a lot of it has to do with a combination's ability to be efficiently breathing. An engine is nothing more than an air pump, the more efficiently you can move air (breath) the more power will be produced.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 06:07:59 PM
that a 351?
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 06:16:21 PM
Yeah I think its a good idea to call Comp and ask them whats the best grind.
I read this, and I figure If i put just a little bit more into it, I can break the 400 mark and be satisfied. I WAS going to go aluminum crank and rods, fearing the stock ones would break, but after reading this I'd probably be okay with keeping the stock ones. And as for tweaking the computer...that sounds liek rocket science to me right about now, maybe that's for another day lol.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Crazy88 on August 26, 2012, 06:24:46 PM
Quote from: Driverguy;396706
I WAS going to go aluminum crank and rods, fearing the stock ones would break, but after reading this I'd probably be okay with keeping the stock ones.
Um...ok. Yeah, that sounds much better than an aluminum crank for sure. :wtf:
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2012, 06:30:36 PM
Quote from: Crazy88;396698
What are you planning to do with this setup? Drag, burnouts or serious street machine? As I mentioned, the torque numbers are what motivates the car and tends to break things... like the input shaft on the AOD (Ask TurboCoupe50 about that), broken cranks and blocks, twisting chassis, etc. You are NOT gonna see anywhere near Coyote of power out of a normally aspirated small block Ford, using a standard bore and stroke. The small block Ford just doesn't breath well enough, but you don't really need to either. If you effectively double the whopping 155 hp of a stock SO 5.0 liter(302) small block Ford in a reliable and streetable way, you will have more than enough grunt for the street and ought to do pretty well on the strip as well, in a properly prepared race car.
Op's goals are eerily similar to my long term goals, so to this line of thinking I say: Challenge accepted. An FRPP block, some good heads and intake, mildly aggressive cam and some headers combined with the right engine management and I say its easily attainable. I'll even stay at stock displacement to prove my point, although I HAD planned on a 331. I won't touch a 347 (py piston side loading, leading to a motor with a taste for rings), and a 306 is just a silly waste (pay for machining, new pistons, new pins and fitting all for 4 lousy CI).
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 06:41:18 PM
oops, my mistake..i meant to say aluminum rods and forged crank...aluminum crank wouldn't be a good idea xD
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Crazy88 on August 26, 2012, 07:10:19 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;396708
Op's goals are eerily similar to my long term goals, so to this line of thinking I say: Challenge accepted. An FRPP block, some good heads and intake, mildly aggressive cam and some headers combined with the right engine management and I say its easily attainable. I'll even stay at stock displacement to prove my point, although I HAD planned on a 331. I won't touch a 347 (py piston side loading, leading to a motor with a taste for rings), and a 306 is just a silly waste (pay for machining, new pistons, new pins and fitting all for 4 lousy CI).
In accepting my challenge to the notion that you can obtain 412+ horsepower out of a normally aspirated small block Ford, without using aftermarket or race bred parts, by all means please elaborate how you plan to accomplish what Ford couldn't, making the small block Ford breath well enough and provide reliable 412+ horsepower and be streetable. Would it be safe to assume that when you say "FRPP block",you mean a non-stock casting? Would it also be safe to assume that when you say "good heads and intake", you do intend to use non-stock, aftermarket, race bred pieces...right? It goes without saying that when one says "mildly aggressive", with regard to a cam, they envision to the use of non-stock parts. Without even covering fuel and ignition management, I believe I have made my point. What you describe is nothing like a stock spec'd engine, regardless of bore and stroke. 347 might be overkill for the OP's intended use, but maximum torque is what were had been talking about. You will note that I didn't say that a small block Ford can't produce the 412+ hp, just that it can't do so reliably, cheaply and in a streetable way. 300-350 is fairly easy to attain with the correct combination of parts and be reliable. Streetable, for the purposes this discussion, is decent fuel economy, reasonable vacuum and an idle that isn't so lopey that it makes the car feel more like a washing machine.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2012, 07:34:50 PM
Ford never intended to get to that power level with the motor. And it's strictly because of the market at the time and what it's competition was, not to mention cost. To that end, Ford doesn't provide pieces that will reach that power level, I would like to separate "aftermarket parts" from "race bred parts" because they're not the same, and Op didn't specify OE parts. Having said that, I could dig up non-factory parts from the OE that would get there, but it's unnecessary, to go that far. The Coyote engine operates at these levels because it was engineered to do so based on the current car market, not because the design is in any way inherently superior. The Coyote engine's block is an alloy version of a 25 year old design, the heads aren't different enough from the original Mark VIII heads to call them new either, with the only significant change being raised ports and additional oil flow to operate 2 cam phasers per head. What sets the Coyote apart from the original Mark VIII engine is cams (both profile and advancement tech), crank throw, and airflow.
If Ford couldn't phase the cams independently, Coyote would be a 350HP engine. And THAT is a fact straight from Ford Engineering.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: 86T-bird on August 26, 2012, 08:26:01 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;396715
Ford never intended to get to that power level with the motor. And it's strictly because of the market at the time and what it's competition was, not to mention cost. To that end, Ford doesn't provide pieces that will reach that power level, I would like to separate "aftermarket parts" from "race bred parts" because they're not the same, and Op didn't specify OE parts. Having said that, I could dig up non-factory parts from the OE that would get there, but it's unnecessary, to go that far. The Coyote engine operates at these levels because it was engineered to do so based on the current car market, not because the design is in any way inherently superior. The Coyote engine's block is an alloy version of a 25 year old design, the heads aren't different enough from the original Mark VIII heads to call them new either, with the only significant change being raised ports and additional oil flow to operate 2 cam phasers per head. What sets the Coyote apart from the original Mark VIII engine is cams (both profile and advancement tech), crank throw, and airflow.
If Ford couldn't phase the cams independently, Coyote would be a 350HP engine. And THAT is a fact straight from Ford Engineering.
Wow... Being an old guy and having lived through the past 40 years tinkering with SBF Ford factory and aftermarket parts (well, once the aftermarket came into existence), I've found your comments in this thread interesting.
Apparently you feel to have been challenged by comments of other members to build an engine comparable to the Coyote (which have been putting down ~400 RWHP) from a basic 8.2 block, OHV head, naturally aspirated.
Please do so. Limit yourself to what ever parts you'd like. Build it, document it and then put 20k miles on it. It'll be a great guide to masses.
I'm confident it can be done and look forward to the parts list, chronicle of assembly, dyno and performance numbers (costs would be nice too).;)
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: bigbada1 on August 26, 2012, 08:27:16 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;396702
Wind!!!! Or better yet this is what you need 500 RWH NA and with just a cam change and headers and a TUNE. The below engine is what you want!!!
That motor is the very reason I decided to buy my paracing kmember I'm to far into my current build to abandon it for the ls but the next one will def be a boosted lax
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2012, 08:46:42 PM
Coyote isn't the magical monster engine you people think it is. I put hands on them every day, and I assure you it's just another multi-valve V8, it can break, it can run bad, and it can be matched by a Windsor in anything except fuel economy. For durability at this level, I'd run the Boss block (http://"http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9085") from FRPP. First because it's inexpensive (relatively speaking, when compared to Dart and World Products), It's strong enough for the job, and last, because I just like Ford parts. Does anybody know what the retail on a Coyote is? I do, and I'll tell you that once you take that and add it to conversion hardware (mounting, wiring, engine management, plumbing, etc), You're over the cost of a fresh built Windsor that's in parity with Coyote. A built 302 at 400-420HP is not less durable than a Coyote when built with proper attention to detail. Build it, run it, love it.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2012, 08:47:44 PM
I am going to cut to the chase here!!! Please take this with a grain of salt. The 302 331 347 engines are good and i have been messing with them for years. Bottom line here is simple. THE HEADS DON'T FLOW. In their best day they can flow 200-210 max. And with those numbers the 400 HP deal is a NO NO. With BOOST you can accomplish 400-420 MAX. But that is it. Basically that SUCKS for the money it will cost. An NA 302 331 347 is best at around 350HP. And if that is your goal fine. But their are easier ways and better engines to do it with. Basically the 302 is a BOAT ANCHOR. But this is a ford site and i will most likely get pounded for saying this. THE 302 IS A DOG PERIOD!!!
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2012, 08:48:29 PM
Hey Tom, why are the manifolds backwards on that LS motor? Curious.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 26, 2012, 08:49:02 PM
Turbo!!!!!!
It is set up for a cheap turbo conversion. And this works extremely well and very cheap to do with the stock manifolds. POOR MANS TURBO SETUP. Thank you for asking. Sometimes i do things off the wall and it works. This works excellent.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
Thought so.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2012, 08:51:35 PM
Quote from: 86T-bird;396724
Wow... Being an old guy and having lived through the past 40 years tinkering with SBF Ford factory and aftermarket parts (well, once the aftermarket came into existence), I've found your comments in this thread interesting.
Apparently you feel to have been challenged by comments of other members to build an engine comparable to the Coyote (which have been putting down ~400 RWHP) from a basic 8.2 block, OHV head, naturally aspirated.
Please do so. Limit yourself to what ever parts you'd like. Build it, document it and then put 20k miles on it. It'll be a great guide to masses.
I'm confident it can be done and look forward to the parts list, chronicle of assembly, dyno and performance numbers (costs would be nice too).;)
Stick around long enough, I'll show you. Couple years maybe, I'm not made of money, but I promise you I'll give you exactly what you asked for.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on August 26, 2012, 09:46:26 PM
Assuming a good 5.8 short block, this most of is what you need to make 443Hp...
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 26, 2012, 10:24:30 PM
Wow...I seem to have induced arguments here lol. I guess If i want to build a monster supercharged engine comparable with the shelby gt500 and ford gt, id go with the 351 block. For the 5.0, I'm going to go for about 420, to match the 2013 Mustang GT. Anything higher than that is a risk, and I don't really need it anyway, there are speed limits :P. I'm assuming that "OP" in some of these poists refers to me, so I'll say that yes, I did plan on using aftermarket heads, namely, these Ford racing Z series ones (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-6049-Z304P/)
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 26, 2012, 11:20:34 PM
I was considering Z heads as well. I'm not aware of their driveability characteristics, but by the numbers, the port volume and airflow is there.
OP stands for opening poster, or the person who initiated the thread.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Beau on August 27, 2012, 01:33:53 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;396708
I won't touch a 347 (py piston side loading, leading to a motor with a taste for rings).
Times have changed.....there are kits long available that keep the pin below the oil ring. Ford Strokers I do believe sells a couple variations that don't have the oil issues. my buddy had one in a '95 GT stang. He had it for 19 thousand miles. Performed flawlessly, and ran in the mid 11's.
But fact is, unless you go hog wild with cam and heads, and fuel issues are also resolved at those power levels....450 reliable horses with stock block and crank (nevermind the heads, you won't get that power with even mild ported GT40 P's) won't last if you gouge on it....and why build such an engine to only drive it like my granny?
May as well figure in the cost of a 4 bolt block...take your pick of stroked 5.o, or even a stroker 351w-based block..myself, if cash wasn't a consideration, I'd have a 427w, but I can only build my dreams on paper at this point, but I do know what's workable, and what's merely a fart in the wind. A stock 5.0 block (I'll even spot you the 347 stroker kit and whatever heads you want) and you'll still NEVER come close to a reliable AND streetable 450 horse/torque level, period. I read an article once time a few years ago...some Mustang owner swapped a Nascar Cup 358 into his Stang (seems like it was a '94-'95). It ran well enough, but was worthless for stop and go stuff, not surprisingly. Those are basically what OP is after...all motor, crazy power....but...it comes at higher RPM. I'd rather have a monster torque hit down low in a heavy car.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Driverguy on August 27, 2012, 04:57:24 AM
no, I'm after the opposite actually lol. I want something with good torque and is good for a cruiser. I dont know about how the revs will be handled with an AOD, but I don't want to be sitting at 5+ grand all the time. Like I said, 450+ maybe was a little too much for me to think...thats getting into the territory of not being a daily driver motor anymore and becoming a handful. Like that link i showed a few posts back about the 399hp budget build...that's all I'm looking for really, maybe put a little bit better heads on it to boost it up just a bit more.
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: 86T-bird on August 27, 2012, 04:16:10 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;396734
Stick around long enough, I'll show you. Couple years maybe, I'm not made of money, but I promise you I'll give you exactly what you asked for.
Yes, time and money can create a situation where it could be tough to cash the check you've written on that promise! No worries though, I won't hold you to it:D.
I suspect you'll have opportunites to build other combinations with few restrictions and offer a greater bang for the buck over the coming years.
We happen to be in the greatest era of Horse Power Wars yet. Stuff just keeps getting better! The old stuff will gradually slide to the back of garage and be forgotten...
Title: 5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable?
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 27, 2012, 10:07:26 PM
My Coupe had 318 rwhp/ 323 ft-lbs of torque (Mustang Dyno numbers and corrected for altitude) with the 306. I cannot tell you how many of the new 2011/12 Mustangs have seen tail lights, its about a car length every shift and then they just quit. They are a beautiful car but they weigh a ton and have no bottom end. You need to build the engine for what you want to accomplish and not worry about peak numbers, those are for dilrods that like to brag. Area under the curve is what moves the sheet metal.
On another note, you may want to try a custom cam as they are not that much more than an off the shelf Comp and from what I have seen are worth the money. The cam is the brains of the whole deal and if you don't plan the combo out you will be wasting time and money. Work with a good engine builder and plan your build and have realistic goals. Also, building a 306 was the biggest mistake I could have made. The new 331 bottom end only ran me about $400 more and that is cheap for the additional cubes.