Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: beast50 on July 21, 2012, 12:29:12 PM
Post by: beast50 on July 21, 2012, 12:29:12 PM
Im in the middle of a 3g upgrade amongst other things on my 88 5.0 cat. I was able to remove entire harness for front lighting, horn and charging system by unplugging from drivers side 2 major harnesses, a 2 wire harness and the lug from the solenoid. I removed all the electrical tape, flexloom and tracked down what goes to the alternator.
I purchased a premade d shape connector for my 3g that has the yellow/white wire hooking onto the lug of the alternator with a ring connector, the green/ red wire going to cars old green/red wire and the white/black wire looping around and connected to the single male spade inside the alternator. What this leaves is me needing a heavy gauge and fuse coming from the solenoid.
What i have noticed is the yellow/white wire( voltage sensing wire) in the carsi harness is obsolete due to the new d shape connector loops it over to the lug where the heavy gauge battery cable and fuse will be hooking up from the solenoid. This is also where the cars yellow/white wire and fusible link join up with more wires at the same solenoid lug.
My question is, by deleting the cars yellow/white wire and fusible link from the
lug is this going to work the way its supposed to? The way I see it, the voltage sensing wirw on the alternator will be picking up voltage at the power twrminal at the alternator?
I purchased a premade d shape connector for my 3g that has the yellow/white wire hooking onto the lug of the alternator with a ring connector, the green/ red wire going to cars old green/red wire and the white/black wire looping around and connected to the single male spade inside the alternator. What this leaves is me needing a heavy gauge and fuse coming from the solenoid.
What i have noticed is the yellow/white wire( voltage sensing wire) in the carsi harness is obsolete due to the new d shape connector loops it over to the lug where the heavy gauge battery cable and fuse will be hooking up from the solenoid. This is also where the cars yellow/white wire and fusible link join up with more wires at the same solenoid lug.
My question is, by deleting the cars yellow/white wire and fusible link from the
lug is this going to work the way its supposed to? The way I see it, the voltage sensing wirw on the alternator will be picking up voltage at the power twrminal at the alternator?
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 21, 2012, 01:25:08 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 21, 2012, 01:25:08 PM
The alt only needs an exciter voltage ONE WIRE. This comes from the alt light. If a gauge it can be a battery lead switched.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: softtouch on July 21, 2012, 05:15:08 PM
Post by: softtouch on July 21, 2012, 05:15:08 PM
What you have done will work fine. It's OK to delete the stock Y/W wire.
In the stock setup they sense the voltage closer to the load. The regulator would then raise the voltage enough to compensate for any voltage loss between the alternator output and the load.
Nobody ever worries about that with the 3G upgrade.
In the stock setup they sense the voltage closer to the load. The regulator would then raise the voltage enough to compensate for any voltage loss between the alternator output and the load.
Nobody ever worries about that with the 3G upgrade.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 21, 2012, 09:50:53 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 21, 2012, 09:50:53 PM
I eliminated the fuse links altogether and installed an output lead I had pulled off a used Escape motor we were throwing out. It has a 175A fuse molded into the line and I switched the field power to an inline mini fuse holder at the solenoid where the fuse link had been. I probably don't have a proper appreciation for fuse links, but I like fuses. They change out fast and I've got lots of spares. Lots.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: beast50 on July 22, 2012, 01:54:47 AM
Post by: beast50 on July 22, 2012, 01:54:47 AM
I was trying to trace all the wires in the first part of the harness and fusible links to find out which ones are redundant. I snipped and capped the orange/black wire close to the larger gauge yellow wires and fusible links.
I am assuming that 1 of these plugs goes to the cars computer (ECM) and the other goes to the dashboard and fusebox? Is there anything else from this area that can be deleted or should I consider this area at the solenoid and under the battery tray batch of wires ready to be bundled up?
I am assuming that 1 of these plugs goes to the cars computer (ECM) and the other goes to the dashboard and fusebox? Is there anything else from this area that can be deleted or should I consider this area at the solenoid and under the battery tray batch of wires ready to be bundled up?
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: beast50 on July 22, 2012, 03:27:49 AM
Post by: beast50 on July 22, 2012, 03:27:49 AM
I do like the idea of using an underhood fuse/relay box from another Ford product. These cars really do not have any extra room next to the battery to run the power leg from. I thought about running a power cable all the way to passenger fender/frame rail and adding one. This way I could have a MEGA fuse for my alternator to run off of and have a place to store my fuses and relays for my headlamp harness/relay upgrade.
I wonder if I could run my power for my headlamp relay harness from the orange/black hot wire that used to run to the alternator?? It is getting power from a lug off the solenoid and I could fuse my highbeams and low beams from this if I decide not to use the underhood fusebox.
I wonder if I could run my power for my headlamp relay harness from the orange/black hot wire that used to run to the alternator?? It is getting power from a lug off the solenoid and I could fuse my highbeams and low beams from this if I decide not to use the underhood fusebox.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2012, 03:54:42 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2012, 03:54:42 AM
If you're going to run your headlamp relays from anyplace, it should be from the battery. Since I like terminated cables, this is how I do mine (pic is an example, my work on an expedition) so that I have good attachment points later.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: beast50 on July 22, 2012, 05:17:01 AM
Post by: beast50 on July 22, 2012, 05:17:01 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;394734
If you're going to run your headlamp relays from anyplace, it should be from the battery. Since I like terminated cables, this is how I do mine (pic is an example, my work on an expedition) so that I have good attachment points later.
Good solid connections!
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 22, 2012, 10:55:13 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 22, 2012, 10:55:13 AM
I hate to tell you that those connectors are GARBAGE. They loosen up and i never use them. Havent for many many years. Just me could be wrong again
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2012, 02:26:31 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2012, 02:26:31 PM
They're solder filled copper terminals and without a torch, they will never come off that cable. Neither will the nuts in the terminal base. The lead universal terminals will last YEARS longer that the new stamped steel ones I've started seeing, and when they do wear out, you unbolt them and bolt the cables to a new one. I've been doing it that way for at least 8 years, and never have problems with it. Not one single time. When I learned this method, the tech who taught it to me was at least 3 times my age. I usually also use waxed heatshrink tubing, but for this one I didn't have any handy. What you can't see in the picture is that these lead terminals nave nyloc nuts in the base for the 2 bolts. I only discovered those terminals year before last, but even before that I haven't had trouble with them. I experimented for a while with putting the bolts through the other way so they were like studs, but I didn't like that way it looked.
This is my Kung Fu, and it is strong.
This is my Kung Fu, and it is strong.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: ipsd on July 22, 2012, 02:59:36 PM
Post by: ipsd on July 22, 2012, 02:59:36 PM
Those look like a nice connection. I also haven't had any trouble out of that style setup. The only thing better that I have found are the same lead type but they have four bolts to hold them together. Now they make some that have a steel top plate but they also make them with a thick lead top plate those are the ones that I like the most. I due believe they call them HD or mil-spec something like that. I also like the soldering of the copper lugs nice neat clean and yes it takes a torch. I buy plain cooper lugs and use strips of solder I slide in the lug with the wire. Give them a nice pinch with the vice and a torx bit to press in just the center, then heat with torch and when cool cover with heat shrink.
Stuckman
Stuckman
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2012, 03:19:09 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2012, 03:19:09 PM
I lock them lightly in vice grips so they stand in place hands free, then I heat the open end of the terminal (usually with my mapp gas torch) and feed it solder til it's half full, then I quickly move it to the vehicle (I've stripped and fluxed the cable end beforehand) and insert the cable end into the terminal while the solder is still molten. I hold the two together for about 30 seconds and then I slide the heatshrink tubing up the cable (I put the tubing on before the terminal) and shrink it down with a butane torch. I put the bolt through the plate and the terminal end, and tighten down both bolts (not every one of these I do has multiple cables per terminal like the pic shows). Sometimes I get a battery terminal that comes with regular nuts in its base, but I just get a couple nylocs from parts and swap them out. No crimping needed.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 22, 2012, 08:43:44 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 22, 2012, 08:43:44 PM
THEY SUCK CASE CLOSED. Just me most likely wrong again.
I use crimp ends that you fill with solder.
First the cable ends you posted do not make a good connection. By bolting them with a 1/4 20 i do not consider that a good connection. Second they are one size fits all. Top post battery's have 2 different diameter posts. That means the connectors are different for pos & neg. When you use those connectors you are installing a connection with a joint at the worst possible place. Below is a good set of connectors that you first crimp they are wire sized for the correct application and they are clearly marked POS & NEG. After crimping with the recommended tool i flow solder in the cavity then shrink tubing for the approperate color. Red for POS And black for NEG. The connectors below are the only way to do it. This will give you a resistance free connection and they dont look like a cheese quick repair. Note below the two connectors are clearly designed for pos and neg application along with the proper wire size for a perfect connection. Note they are clearly marked Pos and neg. Just me could be wrong again
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-80.jpg)
I use crimp ends that you fill with solder.
First the cable ends you posted do not make a good connection. By bolting them with a 1/4 20 i do not consider that a good connection. Second they are one size fits all. Top post battery's have 2 different diameter posts. That means the connectors are different for pos & neg. When you use those connectors you are installing a connection with a joint at the worst possible place. Below is a good set of connectors that you first crimp they are wire sized for the correct application and they are clearly marked POS & NEG. After crimping with the recommended tool i flow solder in the cavity then shrink tubing for the approperate color. Red for POS And black for NEG. The connectors below are the only way to do it. This will give you a resistance free connection and they dont look like a cheese quick repair. Note below the two connectors are clearly designed for pos and neg application along with the proper wire size for a perfect connection. Note they are clearly marked Pos and neg. Just me could be wrong again
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-80.jpg)
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: beast50 on July 22, 2012, 09:41:08 PM
Post by: beast50 on July 22, 2012, 09:41:08 PM
With the wire delete for the 3g upgrade, how far has everyone gone with this? I dont like the idea of having a couple of capped off hot wires sitting in my engine bay, especially under my battery tray.
The bundle that the orange and black wire goes to, there are a few larger gauge yellow wires and some fusible links that all connect to the main harness. Is this for the cars computer?
The bundle that the orange and black wire goes to, there are a few larger gauge yellow wires and some fusible links that all connect to the main harness. Is this for the cars computer?
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2012, 11:42:09 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2012, 11:42:09 PM
Those are nice terminals, where do you get them, how big are the cavities, and how in Gods name are you going to cleanly install 2 cables (like the car in my pics) into one and have it look neat? Don't get me wrong, they are nice, and I might use them on the right project, but these are not the solution for every vehicle. My repair is neat, problem free in my extensive experience with it, safe, and strong. These terminals in your pic, Tom, are well suited to vehicles with a single cable to each terminal. but I think it would look like a square peg/round hole repair with 2 cables coming out of it. You're welcome to show me a pic and prove me wrong, but in my imagination, it seems like it would look crammed.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: Beau on July 23, 2012, 12:17:21 AM
Post by: Beau on July 23, 2012, 12:17:21 AM
Fellas, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I for one like the looks of Foe's cable routing/terminal method...I will do something like that when/if I ever put the Sport battery in the trunk. Yes Tom, anyone that's worked on a Ford more than 10 years old knows the posts on a top post battery are of differing sizes..as long as his solder/crimp terminal jobs are strong, what's the issue...the battery terminal itself can and should be replaced every so often, due to corrosion, and such. (I'm hard on most of mine, have had 2 sets on my Sport since 2009, and the car has not racked over 30 miles or so in that time..)
I can say by looks alone it'll beat ANY of those stamped steel wal mart-esque cheap pieces of shiznit they want to sell you nowadays. I have on one the Sport. It's a joke at best. The solid lead pieces ARE better, even though they tend to corrode more if you leave them unattended for periods of time.
I can say by looks alone it'll beat ANY of those stamped steel wal mart-esque cheap pieces of shiznit they want to sell you nowadays. I have on one the Sport. It's a joke at best. The solid lead pieces ARE better, even though they tend to corrode more if you leave them unattended for periods of time.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: softtouch on July 23, 2012, 04:36:12 PM
Post by: softtouch on July 23, 2012, 04:36:12 PM
Quote from: beast50;394774
With the wire delete for the 3g upgrade, how far has everyone gone with this? I dont like the idea of having a couple of capped off hot wires sitting in my engine bay, especially under my battery tray.
The bundle that the orange and black wire goes to, there are a few larger gauge yellow wires and some fusible links that all connect to the main harness. Is this for the cars computer?
I am not clear on what you want to wind up with. Are you deleting the EEC and going carb? Anything else?
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: Beau on July 23, 2012, 05:44:00 PM
Post by: Beau on July 23, 2012, 05:44:00 PM
Quote from: beast50;394774
there are a few larger gauge yellow wires and some fusible links that all connect to the main harness. Is this for the cars computer?
No. Those supply voltage to the electronics of the car, the relays, and other stuff.
I've also had some issues with the 2 different dash harnesses, and have paid a (toasty) price for my troubles. If you're not very sharp with car electrical, I'd leave them to someone who is....of course, I can't make heads or tails of an EVTM...so what do I know.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 23, 2012, 08:46:12 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 23, 2012, 08:46:12 PM
Just curious if you have a trunk mounted battery do you run tuns of wires back to the trunk??? Or do you establish a BATTERY post distribution point under the hood???? Just me could be wrong again!!!
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 23, 2012, 10:22:47 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 23, 2012, 10:22:47 PM
I think that if I were to trunk mount (an idea I'm not in love with), I'd have to run a body ground on the spot, but also an engine ground. For positive, I think i would want a large gauge single cable to run to the solenoid and leave the underhood cabling otherwise stock. I've never set up a trunk mounted battery, I'm just going by what I figure I'd need. And i would be nervous about routing 2GA through the firewall, but I guess with convoluted tubing and a good grommet I could feel better. I'd run positive up the driver's side sill and ground back down the passenger side. Right now, my alternator cable is on the battery terminal, but I suppose I'd tie it to distribution at the solenoid, but that could get crowded pretty quick, so I might add a positive junction lug so that I could send battery primary over to my PMGR starter and also to the solenoid by an 8GA, I could probably tie the alternator to the lug as well to help with crowding. So trunk battery to distribution lug underhood, to starter, alt and solenoid. I think that's the way I'd go. Body ground in the trunk, and engine ground up through the firewall probably to a bellhousing bolt or to a starter bolt. You can't forget ventilation, hydrogen gas isn't something I'd like to store in my trunk, so maybe a sealed box with a vent hose, or better yet a 2" duct. Don't know where I'd vent it to though. That's a lot of extra holes. For now, I think I'll keep it all in the engine bay. Sorry to ramble, just typing and thinking at the same time. But I guess, yes, I'd use and under-hood distribution point, seems like it would be hard to get away from.
Title: 3g wire delete help
Post by: jcassity on August 05, 2012, 03:32:25 AM
Post by: jcassity on August 05, 2012, 03:32:25 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;394770
THEY SUCK CASE CLOSED. Just me most likely wrong again.
I use crimp ends that you fill with solder.
First the cable ends you posted do not make a good connection. By bolting them with a 1/4 20 i do not consider that a good connection. Second they are one size fits all. Top post battery's have 2 different diameter posts. That means the connectors are different for pos & neg. When you use those connectors you are installing a connection with a joint at the worst possible place. Below is a good set of connectors that you first crimp they are wire sized for the correct application and they are clearly marked POS & NEG. After crimping with the recommended tool i flow solder in the cavity then shrink tubing for the approperate color. Red for POS And black for NEG. The connectors below are the only way to do it. This will give you a resistance free connection and they dont look like a cheese quick repair. Note below the two connectors are clearly designed for pos and neg application along with the proper wire size for a perfect connection. Note they are clearly marked Pos and neg. Just me could be wrong again
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-80.jpg)
your right in so many ways!!!