Ok I have been having a hard start problem and I have tracked it down to 3 leaking fuel injectors. The one in the very front I never leaks. But the back 3 leak. Some times they don't sometimes they do. I have replaced all 3 with no change. So I'm thinking its a electric problem. Any idea where to start.
Are you saying the body of the injector is leaking? As in, outside the engine?
Sorry I should have been more clear. The fuel is in the cylinder. I pull the spark plug out and the end of them is wet. It only happens on 2,3, and 4. 1 Always stays dry.
bump
I think if they are leaking, they have to be replaced with "known" good ones.
I cant imagine its an electrical prob. Could the hard start be ignition related? When are you checking the plugs?
Have you run codes?
Are you sure it is gas on the plugs?
I can't see three intakes being open at the same time.
OK yes they where replaced with "known good injectors". Yes codes where checked and there are none. And yes it is gas. 3 intakes don't have to be open at the same time. The fuel could pool up and dump in to the cylinder when you try to crank it. And the problem is interment. It will do it for a while and then there will be no problems and then it will happen again.
What are the cindition of the grounding pins, resistance wise, for the harness?
Also, not sure if the 2.3 has the "salt pepper" connectors or not, but clean up and check the condition of all connectors, clean contact pins, ect.
Does that mean you got code 11 or no code at all?
Ok being that the injectors are paired group fire. I find it interesting that 3 are leaking. That would rule out at least one group if it was an electrical issue. But just maybe the dry one is the one with the issue. Strange??? I would clean the injectors and start over. Is the engine running rich?? I assume it is and is it blowing black smoke when the issue occurs. Also when it runs OK are the injectors wet at this point. And how do you know when this happens. I would think a hard start and or black smoke after start. Need more info. But it is in my view extremely hard to figure an electrical issue because of the group injectors. I would check the regulator and the fuel pressure for proper operation. Also you might want to swap an injector with number one. This way if the dry injector moves the other 3 have issues. So if 1&2 are swapped and one runs dry the issue is not the injector. I had a GM engine with a MISS fire. When we disconnected the alt battery lead it cleared up. That was a real complicated trouble. But you will have to check a few things and RE-POST. Also make sure the pressure reg is not blown. Check the vacuum hose for fuel. And or run the engine with the vacuum hose disconnected. I think i might have an answer to this. So try swapping and disconnecting the regulator and post back.
I always thought the 2.3 cars were sefi, unlike the "sefi" 5.0's.
no, 2.3 is bank fire on pins 58 and 59 just like the CFI. The 88 3.8L also bonds three injectors to one EEC pin.
2.3 is not sefi or batch fire.
83 were green top e3ze-ba bosch 30lb/hr 2.40ohm injectors
84 were green top e4ze-aa ddk 30lb/hr 2.35ohm injectors
85 were brown top e5ze-aa ddk 35lb/hr 2.35ohm injectors
86 were brown top e5ze-ab ddk 35lb/hr 2.35ohm injectors
see the issue?
actually the CFI 3.8L might actually be an upgade
3.8L cfi got green top e3ve-a1a or e3ve-A1b Bosch 37lb/hr 2.25 ohm and 2.00 ohm injectors respectively
I never really noticed this until now but the 3.8L CFI injectors are plentyful.
Turbocoupe50 (the other tom) would correct me if im out of line on this but id really dont see the issue using the 3.8L inj on the 2.3.
Check your injectors application (pn), color means nothing anymore.
this doesnt answer the problem though as to why the same 3 cyl are intermittant dumping of fuel.
never really knew how to take the injectors apart, i do see up on the plastic top there appears to be a divit, perhaps a pin that can be poped out? separates the solenoid?
odd problem for sure
my guess is something like haystack
when you shut off your car, there is a time delay to when the eec relay turns off. during this time depending on the distributors position, there may be power applied to the same three injectors with a somewhat simulated ground being supplied to the injector (typically the job of the eec anyway. without having the car here, hard to speculate but im guessing the jury isnt really out on an electrical source to the issue.
you should at the least have a rich code cause the eec would record such an event, otherwise its truley a hard mechanical fault and i have no idea why after swapping in other injectors the same 3 do the same thing.
The first thing i would do is swap injector 1 with 4. The 2.3 pairs 1&2 and 3&4. This way if the trouble happens again and moves you have a better idea of what is happening. Because of the paired injectors their may be an imbalance in that group. But as for it doing the same thing with the 3 suspected injectors is puzzling at best. But with a trouble like this all avenues must be tried and or tested. Also were the injectors bought new and the proper application used??? I would also change the coolant temp sender just for kicks. But swapping the injectors is in my view a good start. There may be an impedance issue between the injector number one and two as they are paired. Tough call on this one. The chances of another set of injectors doing the same thing is highly unlikely. You can also check the paired resistance readings with a good meter and compare the balance. But that is a long shot i guess. You would need a good FLUKE with low ohm stability to read it. Also the number one injector just might be the bad one. Replacing the three did the same thing. So my thinking is maybe the number one is bad. You might try installing one of the old injectors in position ONE just for kicks. Just a thought.
when you shut off your car, there is a time delay to when the eec relay turns off. during this time depending on the distributors position, there may be power applied to the same three injectors with a somewhat simulated ground being supplied to the injector
1&2 are grouped together. So it would be highly unlikely. Just me could be wrong again.
I asked this to confirm that the software in the EEC is running and it is not in LOS mode.
I don't know how the intake is designed, so this may be a dumb question. If the front of the engine is a little higher than the rear, and the injectors pulsed while the engine was stopped, wouldn't the gas from the #1 injector run toward the rear?
To theorize a little more on the 5 second time period the EEC stays powered up after the engine shut down.
Something generating electrical noise being picked up by the PIP wire from the TFI causing the EEC to pulse the injectors. Maybe non-stock cooling fans still running after shut down. Maybe the fan wires are too close to the TFI wires.
Maybe a bad TFI module. If the PIP pulse voltage is not switching between good on and off levels, but is staying near the switching level. In my old computer trouble shooting days we called this being "on the hairy edge".
yeah, i see what you mean tom, odd problem for sure
I wonder if a bad or intermitant ground to the eec could effect the pip sensor, giving the engine the effect that it is turning over differently then normal. Thee evc4 system only uses pip input for rpm's right?
Once again if false trigger is the issue why is not the paired 1&2 having the same ISSUE??? Swap the injectors . Just me could be wrong again.
Well I will go do more testing today. But I probably wont find anything. I have not had the problem the last few days. And when the problem first started I replaced the fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, and checked fuel pressure. The 3 injectors I replaced came off my spare motor. The motor ran just fine when I pulled it. So I would say the injectors where fine.
O and some one asked how I knew it was doing it. Normally it will start up just fine if it was running with in a hour of trying to start it again. If it sits any longer then that then it gets very hard to start. If I let it sit over night it more then likely wont start unless i pull the spark plugs and dry everything out..
I have been using the fuel cut off switch to kill the pump while the car is still running. Then before I go some where turn it back on and it starts just fine.
Is this a dumb question?
From the 88 EVTM:
Fuel injectors on the 2.3L and 3.8L engines fire simultaneously (once for each crankshaft revolution).
Well that seems to put the problem outside the 5 second EEC power down delay.
Put a volt meter on the red wire to the injectors. The battery voltage should go away about 5 seconds after key off.
If it doesn't, you are looking a either an ignition switch problem or an IRCM problem.
If it does, you don't have an electrical problem.
If it is intermittent, good luck catching it when it is failing.
humm,,, good points ,,, noid light on injector would be the right choice... never gave the ign sw a thought.
Just curious why would an ignition switch be an issue. And even if it was how do you explain number one not being effected. Unless the paired 1&2 are out of balance impedance wise. Or the paired 3&4 is out of balance and is effected by a BACK EMF!!! But why is it not effecting number one injector??? you might want to see if the injectors are leaking from a carbon build up on the PINTEL. You did say the injectors were USED!!
I asked him to check to see if the battery voltage was staying on the injectors with the key off. If it was, the ignition switch could be shorted and keeping the EEC power relay picked.
Tom he says it has to sit with the engine off for a long time before the problem shows up. If the front of the engine is higher would the gas from the #1 injector drain to the rear?
logical, the fuel rail does lean down in the rear
I suspect your nailing this one softtouch
in other words Tom, if the ign sw is off and is allowing the fuel pump to power down, if there is a defect in the ign sw keeping the EEC relay picked, then the injectors may have some degree of power irregardless of distributor position, the back two injectors sit lower,, with the fuel pump off **but** with fuel presure still on the tops of all the injectors,,, its possible the fuel pressure could bleed out the pental.
It took me a while before it clicked what softtouch was saying,, i get it now.
But if the injectors are not powered up they cant LEAK. And if they do without being powered up they need replacing So with all this technical mumbo jumbo The rail still has residual shut down pressure. So the fuel should leak past all the injectors not just 3. Even if the fuel rail was vertical the residual pressure would leak on all 4 if their was an electronic reason for it. Just me could be wrong!!
SWAP NUMBER 1 WITH NUMBER 4 And call it a day. This is so intermittent and random he needs proof of which injectors are actually leaking and he has this info. So by swapping them he can see if the trouble moves. SIMPLE AND takes like 10 minutes to do. just me and without swapping the injectors he is CHASING BALLOONS!!
ahh , yes but "what if the injectors are powered up" because the EEC relay is allowing it to be so due to a faulty ign sw?
An intermittent power condition to. The eec would cause a random miss in the engine, as well as the fuel pump. But where it continues running, I doubt that the fuel pump isn't supply fuel, at least enough to run all 4 injectors.
However, the car might run lean, and the eec could try to richen it up with longer injector pulses in an attempt to make the o2 read right, and putting a bunch of fuel in the cylinders. I don't think this wouldn't effect number 1 though, it should do all of them the same.
I agree with tom, swap number 1.
Have codes been pulled? What about a cylinder ballance test?
Then all of them would FIRE!!! Unless number one is bad in a different way. Another words if number one is harder to fire it might NOT. So in reality he is looking for a common problem and we are dwelling on the issue that one injector is working properly and it is NOT!!!! Either swap number one or better yet install 4 new or different injectors!!!
Theory number 2 on why the #1 plug stays dry.
The engine always stops with the #1 intake valve open. So the gas doesn't pool-up on top of the #1 valve. It runs into the cylinder and leaks past the rings into the pan.
With all due respect this is the SILLIEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD!!! Normally an engine usually stops in 4 different spots.(depending on the number of cylinders to some extent) And testing has proved this time after time. So if your ridiculous theory is correct swapping the injectors will prove that. I have replaced numerous flywheels in my life with gear issues and upon inspection their is normally 4 distinct areas of wear. Saying the engine stops at the same place every time is beyond BELIEF. Do you really believe this !!!
Just curious why does an engine when shut down stop at the exact place every time. This i have to hear!!!
HUMOR ME!!!
man if that were ture, it would be so helpful in troubleshooting and setting timing marks on the dizzy to base.
I know one of the fins on the dizzy is narrower than all the rest so the PIP can ID cyl 1 but ive never had the luxury of my engine showing me it stopping at the same rotating point each time,, never had it happen, cant speak to the 2.3L though. My gut says the ford shop manual says it does though, i have all the manuals and would also be interested.
Lets say only one cylinder has good compression. This may increase the odds it will stop when this cylinder is on the compression stroke.
Hey I agree he should swap a suspected bad injector into #1 to see if it leaks there.
Just trying to think of other stuff incase it doesn't.
Don't really know how many times he has found the #1 plug dry.
I am curoius about something, maybe you know the answer. Why does the the fuel rail still have pressure after the pump stops? Is the spring loaded diaphram in the regulator applying pressure? Also, the pressure bleeds off after some time. Does the gas leak out somewhere? If so where?
The pump has a check valve and naturally the injectors are closed if they are not gummed up and leaking. The pressure regulator also blocks the pressure in so the system keeps line pressure with the engine off. This accomplishes 2 things It keeps cranking time down and also prevents VAPOR LOCK. Turbo cars have a different regulator. They increase boost one for one with positive boost. Another words for every pound of boost the regulator increases rail pressure by the same amount. Normally over the 42.5 line pressure under O vacuum to the regulators diaphragm. Then increases proportionally by your boost pressure.
I understand how this keeps the gas trapped. But liquids like gas can't be compressed like air so I still don't understand where the pressure comes from.
The gas being compressed. It builds pressure. just like a brake system. It cant be compressed so it builds pressure in the system.