1984 Cougar 3.8
As a number of forum members know I've had an intermittent no-start for some time.
Looks like finally failed. Troubleshooted the fuel system today:
1) Removed fuel pump relay and jumped through to just drive both pumps.
2) Checked volume -- for a 10 second run per shop -- both on the supply side and return side at the throttle body.
....Results are: Supply side: 11 oz.
.......................Return side 5 oz.
Per shop 10 second run on return side should be .GT. 9.5 oz.
So it appears I have a blockage somewhere within the throttle body.
Any suggestions as most likely places blockage would cause such a volume reduction (e.g.
(e.g. body itself, injector screens) or am I barking up the wrong tree?
I am confused . What did you prove with this test??? Are the pressures correct?? And was the other systems checked as well. Spark ETC?? Just asking. I gather you think their is a restriction. But if the vehicle is not running whatever is cousing the difference you feel is causing this NO START?? I am not following what you are saying. Sorry. Can you be more specific and how did you do the test. Can you post photos of the place you are testing volume. I assume the engine is not running when testing Correct!! If memory serves me the TB has a built in regulator??. Is the injectors spraying fuel when cranking!!! Thanks
Chrysler uses volume tests rather than pressure tests on their diesels. If his target is correct, it proves fuel pump is A OK. If there is a blockage, it is on the other side of where the supply side was tested. I would expect the return volume to be the same as supply volume if the injectors don't fire, because there would be no fuel usage. Question is, is the injectors fireing? Is the problem even fuel related? I would expect it to be ignition problem or something causing the injectors not to fire.
Mr. Renzo:
Attempting to check if both fuel pumps are functioning OK.
As Chrome stated - and my opinion also --
Chrome is correct vehicle was not running or even cranking. Just running the pumps by themselves.
All volume was checked at the throttle body connectors or in the case of supply the line right before it connect to the TB.
When vehicle was running injectors worked -- but volume unknown at injectors. Fuel pressure was right on at 39 PSI.
Right now vehicle cranks fine, trys to catch and then fails.
Tried starting fluid but again no start.
Getting spark (though orange) on #4 and #6. -- only ones tested
Have gone over electrical over and over again and finally came conclusion elsewhere.
Based on my internet reads, fuel issues cause some funny things to occur which leads one to go down the electrical path.
Can't explain why no start with starting fluid (did get a backfire once), other than injectors may be putting out some gas
but not enough to start and when starting fluid added causes an overly rich condition.
Hence my original question re the TB as where I should start looking for a blockage.
Injector screens my best guess but hope someone who's rebuilt these TB's may have more insight.
The regulator is restricting the flow more that it normally would to get the pressure to 39psi.
The available flow on the supply side is too low.
Clogged filter. Pinched fuel line. Weak pump. Or anything else you can think of that would reduce the supply volume.
This is what the above test is indicating.
This is not to say you don't also have other problems. Sometimes we can tie ourselves in knots trying to theorize all of our symptoms down to one solution.
That would be true if the info he has for correct volume is incorrect. Honestly, I don't know. I have never seen this test ran on a gas engine. Don't have a clue as to what volume it should have.
Oops! I just discovered that you thought his volume test was fuel pressure. His fuel pressure is 39psi right where it should be. All is good up to and past pressure regulator.
Try a node light. See if the injectors are getting the signal to fire. Don't know your system too well, but if it is not getting the signal to fire, it could be a cam and or crank sensor. Could be a bad wire somewhere. PCM could also be the problem, but that would be a last resort and not likely.
How do you build PRESSURE IF YOU DONT RESTRICT FLOW???
The return is always restricted that is why their is a regulator in the return. NO RESTRICTION NO 39 LBS!! Example it is like a garden hose without a nozzle. Once you install a nozzle the pressure in the hose climbs. Without a nozzle the pressure in the hose is very low. The return side is restricted their fore it should not have the same flow as the supp;i
Return is on the restricted side!!!
Noid light is mandatory for pulse confirmation. I agree with Chrome on this 100%
Tried starting fluid but again no start.
Then you dont have fire or the compression is LOW. Did you check the COMPRESSION. And spark. If it does not start with fluid then something is wrong with something ELSE. Make sure you have spark at the PLUGS. All of them and check the compression.
Thanks all for responses: What I did is "almost" identical to the shop. (p. 24-35-5)
Shop test suggested to disconnect wire harness at high pressure pump and use an auxillary one and a separate B+.
Shop says fuel pump OK if:
1) pressure reaches (35-45 psi)
2) volume at return line is for 10 seconds is 9.5 oz or greater
3) fuel pressure remains at 30 psi immediately after shutdown.
Volume test FAILED (at return) per above, but before troubleshooting the pumps thought I'd check the supply side which IMO gave good results.
That IMO seems to indicate some kind of restriction within the TB -- hence this thread.
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Since injectors are NOT firing under this test, don't see where noid light would help at this point.
Can't explain the starting fluid issue other than as previously stated.
SOFTOUCH's comment:
This makes sense
Not sure if this is a "statement of fact" or suggestion.
QUESTION Softtouch -- Any idea what the volume should be on the supply side??
ADD: Based on my calculations: (see shop 24-35-2) for a 100 L (26.4 gal per hour pump) I should get 9.38 oz in 10 seconds,
For a 60L pump (15.9 gal hour) I should get 5.65 oz for 10 seconds.
Replaced high pressure pump several years back (about 4) and as I recall was the 100L.
I'm exceeding that on the supply side.
That coupled with fact I put in a new fuel filter couple weeks back and the old still appeared to be OK (no junk).
So still going with a blockage somewhere in the TB.
Guessing that gas flow is just from supply side connection, to pressure regulator, to injectors then out the return.
Can anyone please confirm ?
Always possible. THanks for the reminder.
David
I have a couple of questions:
1) Does your car have a low pressure lift pump in the tank and then a high pressure booster pump that is frame mounted?
2) Is the pump(s) the factory unit(s)?
3) Have you dropped the tank? If so what was the condition of the tank i.e. any debris in the bottom and what did you do i.e. replace pump and/or sock filter?
4) Have you chased all the fuel lines and visually inspected for kinks or crimps?
5) I think I remember you replaced the fuel filter but wanted to double check.
Darren
Seems to me that if the engine wont fire with a shot of (starting Fluid) why spend so much time on fuel delivery. If i may why does it not start when shot with starting fluid. Just curious??
If you system was restricted and the pressure was as you claim 39 PSI. Then their would be more then enough fuel at the injectors. you fall within factory specks with the test you have dun!
Lack of fuel should be a non issue if the return is blocked. I or you are not getting what is going on here. If restricted on the return and supply is ok then more fuel would be available at the injector. So if the return is blocked the engine would run RICH. That is what happens when a return line is kinked or restricted. The engine sees more fuel with injector pulse. Back to starting fluid!!! Why does it not start with a shot of this stuff. If you lack fuel a shot of this stuff will fire that engine in a second. I am missing something here!!!
OK so does the car have proper cranking or pump run pressure. App 35 Lbs ??? And does the supply side have the proper flow??? And is both pumps working properly??? And a no start with a shot of fluid wont start it i am going to assume something is bad other than fuel supply. Because 39 LBS of pressure is good enough at the injector rail for the injectors to work. I am missing something here. Can you clear it up a bit!!!
coil
Darren re your questions (Answers under each quesiton):
Tom:
Couldn't agree more. HOWEVER and I mean HOWEVER, I've been over this vehicle with the Intermittent No-Start, and even replacing the distributor (for a new stator) would not allow it to start.
At that time, about 2-3 week before this Final No-Start, taking off the return line (for whatever reason ???) allowed it to start right up. Go Figure!!!
Stangman
Always a possibilty esp with orange spark at plugs.. Easy check, but previously checked OK even with orange spark at plugs.
Did you mean supply side? Injectors need 39 Psi not the fuel tank. I do agree, a fuel pressure test is needed to make sure regulator is functioning.
If you have determined you have fuel at the injectors, it is time to see if you have fuel coming from the injectors. I am concerned that starting fluid will not start it. Tells me it is not fuel related.
FWIW:
No-Start Pinpoint test per shop (p. 25-4) are:
1) Check spark at any spark plug. If spark, no coil test needed as well as lot other electrical test.
Next is
2) SPOUT Verification.
Here want a breakout box (which I don't have). However do have DVOM to check voltage from Pin-36 to chassis ground during crank.
This can be accomplished easily bu accessing SPOUT from the TFI module harness -- BUT -- for Breakout box they want:
>>>>>> Anyone have any idea what this Switch does over an above testing for voltage on Pin-36????
ADD: Based on my read of Ford breakout boxes the answer is:
"Rocker switch allows change from computer-base timing to distributor base timing"
3) Fuel Pump Check is Next if voltages between 3.0 and 6.0 volts
You have made it this far so you really think about everything you have done and write it all down. Break it down into mechanical, fuel, and ignition and put it in your next post. This will help those that are following the thread see what all you have done so we are not having to look all over the place for that info.
Once you have all of that written down its time to start with the basics. Have you run a leak down test on each cylinder? Not a compression check but a leak down test. IF not do you have access to a testing kit? If you can borrow a kit then I would strongly suggest you do this and perform the test. When you are doing the test pull the valve covers. This will allow you to make sure the valves are closed on the cylinder being tested and it also allows you to inspect the valve springs, retainers, and keepers, rocker arms, and push rods. If all this checks out then I would move on to the fuel system. You have to make sure all your mechanicals are 100% before you start the electrical trouble shooting. I am a controls engineer and if the mechanicals are not functioning properly the controller has all kinds of hell doing its job.
With the age of that car I would replace the intank pump, sock filter, and the rubber hose between the pickup tube and the pump. The fuel pressure at the fuel rail should be 39 psig. You will have to jump the fuel pumps to check this since the motor is not running. If you see to low or to high a pressure change the regulator and check it again. I am sure someone on this site has a stock regulator that you could have for shipping if need be. Once you know the fuel system is doing its job then the ignition is next.
You can pull the distributor, reconnect the cap and plug wires, and reconnect the spout connector. Turn the key to the run position and then spin the distributor by hand. You will hear the injectors working which all this does is make sure the distributor is functioning. From here I think you need to address the yellow spark at the plug as I see this as a problem. The spark should be a bright light blue. Some additional questions:
1) When the distributor was replaced did it come with a new cap and rotor bug?
2) When was the last time the plugs were changed? What brand are they? Never and I mean never run AC Delco's or Champion plugs in a Ford. Stick to Motorsport or Autolite plugs only. Some may disagree here but my Coupe and Bird both run like shiznit with the other two.
3) I would change the coil to a known good one and if that does not fix it then try new plug wires if they have not already been replaced. If you replaced them what brand and style did you use? The most common today is a magnetic suppression and there are a few names manufacturers use like mag wire, spiral core, helical core.
Now if you have good cylinder pressures and decent leak down (80% or higher), good fuel pressure, and good ignition and the thing still won't start then its time to dive into the electronics. Most likely at this point there will be a few to say this is all overkill but if you do all of this then you know 100% that you have a solid mechanical system, no doubts.
Darren
You need three things to start the engine, ignition, fuel compression.
Right now you have fuel taken care of with your starting fluid. This leaves only ignition and compression. We know your ignition is bad, where your getting orange spark.
Does the coil hit constantly? What happened why you throw a timing light on the coil wire, is it consistant?
Check the easy things first:
fuel pressure at rail/throttle body.
timing. you may have done this already, but hey, anyone can make a mistake.
That orange spark means your coil isn't putting out the volts it should be. Darren is correct that it should be a hot blue color, nearly purple, almost.
If the coil is known good, then look at the connections and grounds associated with it. To me, since you've had an intermittent issue with it for some time, I'd have to guess it's electrical in nature and something is broken or not cleaned or grounded as it should be. Does that year have a TFI module? If it does, I'd sure as hell suspect it, plus, they're easy to change if you have the little 1/4" socket, most any auto parts store has them for sale...an ordinary 1/4" drive 1/4" socket will be too thick-walled to fit inside the recess on the TFI.
If the engine runs when you spray ether or carb cleaner (if you've got no ether) into the TB, then it's fuel, if it sill doesn't run it's either mechanical (such as timing being way off, like a distributor out 180*) or else the spark isn't setting off the a/f mix.
If you've got another 80's/90's Ford, borrow it's coil and/or TFI, and try those.
'Luck.
Actually a leak down test is not good with your issue. You need to take a compression test. Reason being you may have a stretched timing chain. And a leak down test will not show that. But if you have low compression across the board you have a stretched or jumped chain. You need to know the compression number. Also i think you have a spark issue from what you are saying. Once again why would it not start with fluid???
You need 3 things for an engine to run
1 Compression Normally somewhere around 140-150 LBS
2 Spark at the right time and energy. Normally at app 20KV
3 Fuel with EFI at the correct time and quantity and pressure.
I have a known good DIZZY in my tool box to check the system. All i do is plug it in to the wiring harness and spin it with the ignition keyed. This will test spark and injectors. Any dizzy can be used as a test. As long as it is TFI if your car is so equipped. Good Luck. SPARK would be my guess without personally seeing the ISSUE IN PERSON!!!
ONE IS MISSING!!
Haystack I'm with you. I think its an intermittent coil especially with the backfires with starting fluid...
WHAT BACKFIRES??? If the engine does not have spark it wont run. Did he mention backfires??? I cant find that post??? If the engine back fires it has spark. We are getting off the issue here. Simply put this engine has a no start and their is only a couple of things that can cause it. To follow up with an answer we need some logical trouble shooting answers.
What is the compression numbers
Is their sufficient spark at the plugs
Is their fuel delivery.
Is the ignition timing set correctly
This needs to be checked correctly
With the introduction of an outside combustible chemical STARTING FLUID this leads me to believe either compression is low or their is no spark at the plugs. A compression test will eliminate one issue. So what is the compression. And is their spark at the plugs. The TFI ignition system can produce tuns of spark to the plugs. IS IT THEIR????? Untill these questions are answered he is chasing BALLOONS!!
I'm starting to wonder if its jumped timing too. The vacuum line on most old cars is to advance and retard timing. If it won't run with the vac connected, I dunno.
I still say it shouldn't be orange at all at spark plug wires. However, having spark at the wires rules out your pip/pip module, as long as signal is consistant. Hency why you should check for consistancy at the coil.
What is your input voltage to the coil? I wonder if you have a bad cucuit backfeeding power at 5v to the coil or something supercool like that.
Thanks All.
Had plan to "double check" everything (ignition, fuel, compression) this weekend and post results. Unfortunately did not get the opportunity. Hopefully this week.
Aerocoupe (or anyone else who may have the answer)-- re:
This has plastic fuel lines that lock on.
Question (since I've never pulled the tank),
IS there a rubber connector that connects the low pressure (in-tank) pump to the line that feeds the high pressure (rail) pump ?
(I know the fuel line end that connects to the high pressure - rail -- pump is the push on lock type connector)
I almost want to guarantee you..But am not 100%..That ur Transmission is the problem..No fuel..No spark...No throttle body..Your tranny is causing the no start..Just a guess though..But when the valve body and t cable are having problems..You will get absolutely no crank at all...Instead of checking all the usuals..Sometimes its something you would never guess..Maybe your valve boddy needs adjusting..And your rubber grommet lookin piece is chewed up..Which will cause no start..No crank..
Seriously, dude, don't drink the bong water.
That's a nicer version of what I'd originally typed, but in the interests of preserving the minds of women, children, overly sensitive adult males, and small furry mammals, I deleted it and posted what I did.
I will pass on this one BIG TIME. WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
is that a car forum troll? I'm baffled....
Hopefully that one feller just has a well developed sense of sarcastic humor, but then again...what do I know?
Getting back to the matter at hand, Tom has a good point but I still think that a leak down is necessary as it establishes how well the cylinder is sealing (the rings are sealing and the valves are seating). From there a person would move to a compression check which deals with carbon build up, cam timing, and engine cranking speed. I just don't think a person can assume that if all the cylinders are low on compression across the board a timing chain or belt has skipped as it could be that the motor has ring or valve issues i.e. worn out. So with all that said do both if you can.
Until you prove out the mechanicals your chasing your tail.
Darren
All the cylinders LOW and not a timing ISSUE. I DONT THINK SO???? Cylinder sealing is one thing Compression is another. A quick compression test is what he needs to do. You can have a great leak down with low compression. This was very typical when engines used to skip time with those NYLON GEARS. Leak down was fine but compression was in the dumps. Trust me on this. I am not saying it is his issue but it is something to get out of the equation. Just me could be wrong again!!
I am not saying that it could not be a timing issue. All I am saying it you just cannot say that is what it is without further buttstuffysis. Agree to disagree I guess.
Darren
Exactly that is why a compression test will clear that up . And he can move ON., Personally i think he has no spark. Just me could be wrong again.
He said he has an orange spark...compression issues aside, that's enough to throw a flag in my head.
Again? You were unsure about fuel volume test, but not really wrong. Leak down or compression would both be good tests to do. I would start with compression test just because it is quicker. In the end, he may have to do both depending upon results. If I had enough money to gamble, I would put it on lack of spark. It's just the whole starting out as intermittant thing that makes me think it is not mechanical.
AHAHAHAHAHAH....Just saying i had the same problem with my 88TBird..Thought it was fuel...Starter selenoid...But my tranny needed work...Which caused no crank at all...Tranny has a soleniod by pass thingy on our cars...I fixed the tranny...After spending weeks looking for the problem...And to my suprise it was my tranny...
You must mean a neutral safety switch or whatever you wanna call it..
OK guys: Here's what I've done:
1) As you may recall engine was rebuilt about 3000-4000 mile ago by an AERA rebuilder. Had to redo head twice and used a sealant (Irontite) the second time around. This was done without my knowledge and most probably to get the car past his warranty period.
2) Have noticed a little coolant seepage from the bottom of the head (underneath and outside by the #6 cylinder). Have NOT noticed any coolant in the oil AND pressure testing the cooling system when cold, the head gaskets hold pressure. My conclusion is that like a lot of GM's the head seep when hot.
3) Pulled the plugs (were Bosch platinum) and all looked like they had been running rich -- lot of carbon for 4000 miles. I also noticed some white flaky material (almost like ash) on the porcelain of the >> #2 <
4) Did a compression test (used my old Penske push on tester and borrowed an Autozone screw-in type for confirmation) Could Not use Autozone screw in type as unable to access the cyclinders with the engine in the vehicle. Even with my push in type had a "h#$%^& of a time and not sure results are correct. For reference (cylinder and results):
1---Unable to access (Put finder over hole and there is compression)
2 -- 100
3 -- 135
4 -- 120
5 -- 120
6 -- 135
I know #2 looks low, but a %^&* to access so not sure of the results. (see above note about ash on porcelain of #2).
Given the fact engine was just rebuilt I'm going to say compression OK and that test may be off because of difficulty accessing cylinders.
=====================
Replaced all plugs with new Autolite copper (Believe car originally came with Champion copper, but had bought Autolite previously so had them available).
=====================
Followed manual for No-Start condition (p25-1)
Electrical checked out OK.
However did fail on Fuel Pressure Leak Down Check.
MANUAL COMMENT re: failure:
"Immediately CHECK for hydraulic lock up or fouled spark plugs. REFER to Group 24 for CFI Injector and/or regulator service."
Since engine cranks I'm assuming No LockUp (NOT really sure how to test for this ???)
Plugs were fouled and replaced so no issue with plugs.
==============
Per previous post the fact I got good volume on supply side and NOT on return side indicated (to me) something inside throttle body. The above test seems to point to this also.
My guess fuel pressure regulator, but going to pull CFI and rebuild it.
==============================
Any input or comments or disagreement is appreciated.
David
Before I rebuild the CFI, one question:
Removed injector wires from TB. Also removed Fuel Pump Relay.
Rational here is this way no chance of any fuel entering engine (for example if internal leakage from inside TB).
After sitting overnight -- spayed Start-Up Fluid into top of TB with choke open and engine seemed it tried to start (at least better than previously).
QUESTION:
With starting fluid and NO other gas available, will the engine run for a short period (10-15 second for example) -- or -- what response should I expect from the above conditions?
it will stay running if you keep squirting it in, but it's definitely not good for the valves..
Thanks for feedback
WORD OF CAUTION TO ANYONE READING THIS --
Wouldn't even consider "keep squirting. IMO if backfire, could follow spay back into can and blowup -- similar to lighter fluid and a barbeque.
If i have this story corect and that engine is a fresh rebuild!!! Those compression numbers are atrocious!!
Compression #s not great, but it should still run. Looks like a fuel issue. Too much or not enough. The shreader valve to test fuel pressure is normally located after the fuel pressure regulator. An old fashion fuel pressure test will tell you if it's the regulator. Putting noid lights in the place of the injectors and then cranking the engine will tell you if the injectors are being told to fire. The noid lights should flicker as you crank. No flicker would indicate a bad wire, bad sensor of some sort, or bad ECM. After this ur looking at injectors. And please, never run Bosh plugs. Autolight or Motorsport are great. Champion are fine in a pinch. Bosh is NEVER good. The Platinum in the Bosh plugs just makes it expensive junk.
well don't just hold the button down.. what i meant was when it starts to stall just give it another little squirt. And yes, you have to be careful or it will BLOW UP
They call it starting fluid to start an engine, not run it for a few minutes lol
thanks for stating the obvious... How long will it run? as long as there is a fuel supply, but as it still doesn't seem to start with the starting fluid... it's not fuel related, soo it's irrelelevant. do you have cats? might want to make sure the exhaust can escape.. probably another dumb statement but its an idea
wow dude, that's real cool. You are the man. I hope everybody gets a nice laugh. Apparently you've got an issue with me.. why? I have no idea. Guess I'll keep my opinions and ideas to myself.. since there's people here who know everything about everything.
............ But for real, whats your problem?
Ok, I apologize for whatever got you going. Also my questions were directed towards the OP. I have no cats, dogs, kids, or mice. I thought this was a friendly forum. Not an insult board for trying to help and propose ideas. If that's just your sense of humor coming into play, then cool. Best regards and good luck to the OP.
Tom and Chrome
I agree kinda low, but not sure whether my tester. That's why wanted confirming test if I could have got the Autozone one to work.
That's my feeling also with the return side volume being low.
Maybe some kind of restriction as don't see fuel in the oil (unless its evaporating off quickly.
That's why I was interested in stangman_1987 answer regarding starting fluid as "my logic" said by shutting off the injectors and fuel pump relay the only fuel source would be the starting fluid and
confirm fuel as the problem.
Chrome for what its worth, I usually use a stethoscope and listen to the injectors. This was you don't have to disconnect the injectors and sound will tell you if the injector solenoid is working.
Not so dumb a thought. Prior to this last NO-Start, my thought also, so took it to Midas to have them check out the catalytic convertor. As "Luck" would have it died in their parking lot.
Consequently, had them work on it. Worked on it 8 hours, put in new dissy and PIP and still no start. Finally with my help had them check fuel volume, and by taking off return line allowed vehicle to start.
Had them put back in old dissy and PIP, and with return line off again started right up, Took it home, ran it twice more and finally died for good and this post is the result.
As stated above, whether return line just a fluke -- engine had cooled by then -- or a fuel issue hopefully will eventually find out as ready to send the Cat to Cat heaven.
-----------------
Somehow overlooked INFAMOUSAPA comment and stangmans response:
Actually neutral safety switch not a bad guess -- is part of the start-crank circuit -- but since engine cranks, IMO this drops it out of the picture.
Easy test for this (and the ignition switch) is to run the common DVOM lead to the dissy base and then turn the iginition switch to both run and start while separately checking TFI pins 2, 3, and 4 (use straight pin attached to pos DVOM lead).
If you get 90% of battery voltage both ignition and neutral safety switch are OK.
HaHa, yeah I know that's not your case, cause yours cranks.. I was referring to what his solenoid thingy must have been. Soo, I can see why you think it's a fuel issue with how it ran with the return line off.. weird that it won't fire with the starting fluid. And yes I do know it takes more than fuel for an engine to run. I'm just really thinking it's not fuel related if it doesn't start on the can. I guess it's possible to be a combination of things.. it's been a while since I read your first post, but was it sluggish at all before this happened?
Stethoscope for testing injector function.... That's clever!
I'm just a bit too ADD to re-read the whole thread, but may I ask where you're disconnecting the return at in the system, and have you tried disconnecting it a different points (if there are multiple accessible points)? The reason I ask, is that if there might be a problem with the return, you may be able to determine which section of line it is.
TheFoeYouKnow: Be glad to:
What I did is this (going from memory instead of copying previous post):
1) Disconnected injector harness
3) Put on fuel pressure gauge.
3) Disconnected return line at TB.
4) Turned ignition on for 10 seconds and collected gas in a calibrated container (BTW repeated this three times to make sure no volume changes)
Pressure BTW was 39 PSI. (per spec)
5) Container had about 5.5 oz of fuel. - (Per shop should of had approx 9.5)
6) Next disconnected supply line at TB.
7) Turned ignition on for 10 seconds and collected gas in a calibrated container (BTW repeated this three times to make sure no volume changes)
8) Container had about 11.5 oz of fuel. - (shop does NOT give any specs for supply side), but calculating high pressure pump volume based on pump output, this is good).
After reconnecting lines -- and couple days later --ran the pressure test again. Still 39 PSI -- BUT -- after cycling on/off 5 time for 10 seconds each time,
pressure dropped more than 4 psi (dropped about 6-7 psi) after waiting 2 minutes. This is NOT per spec per manual..
Both the above indicate to "me" either a restriction in the TB and/or failure of the Fuel Pressure Regulator.
=========================
FWIW I can also test before the high pressure pump (this will test the low pressure pump) and just after the high pressure pump which effectively is the same as pulling the supply line at the TB.
Since volume on supply side good, I ruled out any pump issues for now.
/////////////////////////////////////
stangman:
Sometimes would take two or three (mostly two) key turns to start, but vehicle is NOT run daily, in fact about once a week when it runs (LOL)!!
Didn't read the entire thread either, but is this a double fuel pump car? One high pressure one volume, and could one of them be going bad?
Soul:
Yep: But based on previous thread both pressure and volume on supply side look OK,
Let me see if I can conceptually clarify this pressure regulator thing.
If the fuel pump was only capable of 39psi of pressure, the regulator valve would never open and there would be no return fuel flow.
If the pump is capable of more than 39psi, it forces the regulator valve open and some fuel returns to the tank.
How wide does the regulator valve open? It depends on how much more than 39psi the pump is capable of.
Softtouch regarding:
Makes logical sense.
Again logical - but - How this pressure correlates to the volume that is pushed through the regulator is the question (at least for me)?
Per the shop the return line is supposed to put out a volume of 9.5 oz at 39 psi.
So if it is less (volume that is), does that mean there is something wrong???
-- or --
Is the pump pushing just air (> 39 psi) and no gas?
There is probably some math formula (my guess in area of fluid dynamics) but will have to search net.
This I'm not sure of, My guess is that with any pressure > 39psi, the diaphram and spring in the regulator that controls (limits) the pressure
to 39 psi, would reach its design point (here 39 psi) and any additional pressure (and volume) would be routed through the return line orfice of the regulator
instead of through the orfice to the injectors.
///////////// FollowUP //////////////////
Worth a read:
http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/BAPtheory_kens.pdf (http://"http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/BAPtheory_kens.pdf")
Volukm and pressure are different, and don't match each other.
Think about 120 psi in a squirt gun, then 120 psi in a garden hose. One move much more liquid.
Where you have 39 psi at idel, i. Don't think the pressure is the problem. It doesn't take 9oz of fuel to run a car for 10 seconds.
Going back to the starting fluid,
I ran my car out of gas. The guage didn't work, and the wife cleared the trip computer so I wouldn't know how mmuch she drove the car. I thought the fuel pump died. I tried starting fluid after checking some other things, and it fired right up, with no problems. Half a gallon of lawn mower gas got me to the gas station, and I wasted $90 because I was on the freeway and couldn'kt leave it.
If it won't start on starting fluid, its not gas related.
Haystack:
Re:
Hose and Squirt gun good buttstuffogy.
That's why -- IMO -- shop has two separate tests.
On the volume side they must "think" 9.5 oz on the return side is of importance or why call it out as a spec {see shop p24-35-5} ?
Interesting. In my case I let car sit overnight with both the fuel injector harness disconnected as well as the fuel pump relay - so - the only gas was the starting fluid.
You can tell it wants to start -- just doesn't.
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Before messing with the CFI, I think I'm going to pull all plugs again. Then attach them to the plug wires and crank to see if I'm getting spark at all cylinders.
I also may try and redo compression test and make sure dissy is ot TDC.
That - IMO - should eliminate any questions on spark and compression.
Does that engine have a TFI module? if not, disregard my post...but if it does, try a known good one, and let us know the changes (if any)
Thundersport302
will do, but will have to be this weekend. AFAIK, if you get spark at the plugs, this eliminates the TFI and PIP.
Once again if you have fuel
Spark and compression it will start
Another thing is the exhaust CLOGGED??? At this point anything is possible. But you compression numbers are in the DUMPS. Very low. Min is app 135-140.
My mustang had a piss-yellow spark at the plugs, wouldn't start. swapped in a different TFI, and it started. Ran like , but that was another issue that's not relevant to this thread. Remember, your TFI DOES affect your spark output....if it's weak or deadd, you'll get weak to no spark.
Your car will still run with low compression. My old 86 5.0 with 235k miles or so ran at 110-125 psi with onne cylinder hitting 90psi, and would spin a tire up till about 40mph from a dead stop. but that doesn't mean it will run well. By the time I got to 290k, it was barely running.
Not always , I just dealt with a 79 f250 that would not run at all , a compression test revealed a max of 75lbs on two cylinders...those were the "good" two
Thought I'd do an update:
1) Swapped TFI and till No-Start.
2) Decided to rebuild Throttle body and have injectors tested.
Have TB cleaned and injectors out, but still need to have them tested.
Injector screens look clean.
3) Just noticed a couple of wires where insulation has come off near connector.
So this needs some liquid tape.
4) Haven't got around to pumping some gas yet to check for water in tank.
As noted -- believe this thread -- replaced fuel filter with low mileage on it (around 2000)
to see if any trash or rust. Nothing wrong with filter.
5) Just noticed tranny front pump seal is leaking a bit.
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Kinda reaching a point - my age that is -- of all the little fixes.
Hate to do it, as love this car, but looking into getting rid of the Cougar.
Thought I'd never say that.
Since original owner have a detailed parts history.
Can get $400 - $500 from the metal guy here, but would like to see bird go to a good home, even if just for parts.
Anyone near Tucson, and need a bird with a lot of new parts let me know via this thread and we'll see what we can work out.