Just a question. I have a 1967 Firebird with a chevy motor. I built is many years ago as a DD. It is nothing special just a 350 HP small block. It has a carburetor. It also has a stock HP chevy 2 line mechanical pump. When i tried to start it for the summer it would not start. Very strange for this car as it always starts after the carb bowl fills up after a few cranks. But this time NO GO. So i grabbed a spare pump and installed it. NG no fuel. So i installed a vacuum gauge on the pump got good vacuum from the tank side of the pump. But no start. So i created a syphon on the line back to the tank. Gas came out nicely. So with that i hooked everything back up and filled the carb with fuel through the carb vent. Naturally the car ran. And ran perfectly. So far so good. I disected the old pump and found the check valves eaten up by the fuel. Now 10% alcohol has been in our fuel for years so what happened??? Now the car sat for a few weeks because i use my other cars in the summer and the Pontiac laid around for a while again. BINGO same thing pump Valves curled up and were brittle and would not work. My question is why all of a sudden does the fuel eat my pumps?? I think the fuels in my area has more alcohol than years ago. Any thoughts Gentlemen. And what to do about it. I am thinking of a modern electric pump. But i hate frame mounted pumps. So i will have to come up with an in tank pump that is putting out about 6-8 lbs. Any answer will be appreciated. Thoughts please Gentlemen Thanks :hick::hick:
Did you do a separation test a sample of the fuel to verify the mix ratio? You could be dealing with a higher mix of ethanol, it's not hard to imagine a tanker driver accidentally filling a tank for a couple minutes with E85, and just not telling anybody about his mistake.
Also, I imagine that it wouldn't be a huge deal to set up an in-tank pump with an adjustable regulator either at the tank, returning fuel on site, or in the tank between the pump output and the top of the pump carrier, dumping the excess back into the tank. It wouldn't be too different from early returnless systems, just lower pressure.
Gas swells when hot, as does ethanol. It's possible there may have been more ethanol in there than what the (delivery) driver thought. Also, the minimum (Missouri, at least) ethanol requirement is 10%, but it's usually higher.
My dad has hauled gas, ethanol, and even race gas since 1998....anything you want to know, just ask.
In other words, Tom Renzo, my gut is that there was/is too much corrosive alky in the tank. I'd get a new electric pump like you mentioned, but make sure it's good for the higher levels of ethanol in fuels...stuff ain't goin' away.
Yes that is my feeling on the subject. I went to the local car show Friday night and talked with some of the regulars. I spoke to some of the purist Camaro and Chevelle guys. They tell me that they are also having pump issues as well. Like you guys point out the fuel must be higher in E85 as posted. This seems to be a trend. Is their any way to actually measure the percentage. Please ask you dad for me. I can see this as an issue. I am wondering if someone makes a mechanical pump more alcohol friendly. The needle and seat in my carb is E85 compatible so no issue their. But i was thinking of using an older Caddy in tank pump or a SVO in tank pump. They are low pressure in tank pumps. I can use a regulator or bypass under the car to regulate the Pressure. No big deal with that. Thank you all for your input. If you can think of anything else i would appreciate it. This has me concerned because their are loads of older cars with low pressure engine mount pumps. Known as mechanical pumps you know what i mean. Please ask you dad Thunder i would really appreciate that. He most likely has an answer. Because i can see this as an issue for me and some og my buddies and customers Thanks Gentlemen. Tom
Hang on Tom...do you actually put E85 in there, or just the normal 10% (give or take) unleaded!?
If you've put, or are putting E85, then yes, you will have serious issues. Hoses corroding, certain older plastics being "eaten", etc.
They "claim" 10%-15% is fine....and for the most part, it probably is, but truth is, 85% ethanol is more than most older fuel systems will tolerate. I even put about 3 gallon of straight ethanol and 1 of gas in my 92 F150....thankfully the return on top of the tank was easy to get to, because it didn't run for long. And after that, I had to put on a new fuel pressure regulator, as the E75 mix I'd concocted had apparently caused a hole in the diaphragm.
Now, like I've said, here, you can't get gas that isn't at least E10...and have had no noticeable adverse effects from it. Lawnmowers, saws, weedeaters, tractors, anything. I even use it in my old tractor that has a requirement for the CD2 lead substitute.
No issues.
Would I put E85 in any of them? Hell no.
Sorry i ment 10% not 85%. I got cought up in the moment. According to my gas station the fuel is 10% ethinol. Is this to much for the hew pump i installed ans is the new pump made of bad materials. My old pump was an original AC DELCO. The new pumps is an AC delco made in CHINA. WOW. So it is 10% according to BP. But i think it is a higher percentage than 10 can that be tested??. Sorry for the confusion my mind is running on full speed ahead. This issue is bugging the out of me. Thanks for listening and helping
I think the mandate is that be at LEAST 10%, but who's to say it's not more. I'm not sure how, or even how cheap it could be tested to determine the ratio.
Come to think of it though, I've been changing a lot of fuel pumps lately..ones you'd not think would go bad....with 40K, 61K, and my blue truck is on it's second f/p. So who knows...maybe there is more corn liquor in the gas than just 10-15 per-cent.
Maybe some of those higher end fuel system preservatives are worth a thought after all..?
maybe you got ahold of some over enriched winterblend?
We have a separation tester at our shop we use to make the ethanol and gasoline separate. The tube the test takes place in has graduations in percent so that when the two settle apart you get a surprisingly accurate reading of the ethanol percentage. I do know that this is a Ford essential tool, so if you've got friends in the local Ford shop, or other shop that has one, it's worth checking. Most of the time we use it when we have drivability problems on non-flex fuel vehicles and suspect E85 is in the tank. I've only used it on a couple of occasions, but that isn't the sort of work I do there.
"Accidently" filling the pumps with E85 or even E15 can cause alot of us with cars older than 2001 some HUGE problems!
The "law" is 10% and I say "law" because, well, PEOPLE make up the government and PEOPLE are fallible, not machines. Mistakes are made. All the stickers around here say Maximum 10%.
I have heard from more than one person that the process involved with mixing alky and gasoline at wherever it happens, is way too pr0ne to incorrect mixtures. The alcohol is dumped in the tanker first, then if there's a mistake in the request for fuel....less gasoline is added, richer ethanol mixture. That makes my blood boil, if it's correct. My 100% original, especially in the fuel tank area, 1938 Buick runs just fine on the fuel available. I'm convinced 10% is fine for ANYTHING except 2-strokes, where it literally will prevent the 2-stroke oil from adhering to metal surfaces and starve the poor wead-eater or leaf blower of lubrication. But there is definitely not enough control over the level when people's cars suddenly run like a beat neglected old turd that's had zero maintenance done in 50k miles.
On a local board composed of just fly-by-night 8/9/10-second pro-street guys that organize *ahem* hangouts week-to-week, a couple years ago I saw one of them post a flagrant thread, the guy knew someone that drove truck or worked down at the port, he wanted to let everyone know to avoid "brand x" stations that day because a mixture of over 50% ethanol had gone out, and the situation was known and being taken care of, but someone could be at risk if they went and filled up. Possible anyway...
I had a situation with my Cougar last year where it started acting funny after a fillup. I was furious, all I could think was I got a bad tank of gas, I hightailed it back to the station to complain. The clerk gave me the managers phone number and he was like talking to a wall. It's nice to know they know nothing about the product they sell. I turned in the station to the Illinois Department of weights and measures who later resolved no fault with the gas. I wonder if they just tested for impurities or if they do test for ethanol percentages when they tested the fuel?
I guess I will have to invest in gasoline testing kit to measure the ethanol % before I put fuel in this car from now on. Luckily my 2011 Impala is flex-fuel I bet that even has its disadvantages when switching from E85 to normal pump gas.
E85 in a flex-fuel is convenient when low on cash but the mpg loss is quite noticeable.
I was concerned about running ethanol through my cars and other power equipment a while back and I found this site. http://pure-gas.org/ (http://"http://pure-gas.org/") They list stations that sell ethanol free fuel.
That list isn't exactly true. By Missouri state law (since 2008, I may add) there can NOT be gas sold with any less than 10% ethanol.
Fact.
And since that list appears to be made up mostly by people sending in where they bought straight gasoline, I'd say it's pretty unreliable, as there are still pumps here that have no stickers or notices that the gas is E10.
So what do we have here? Nearly widespread E10 gas, and most likely, no sticker or label saying so. The ONLY time there will be NO ethanol in gas is when ethanol EXCEEDS price of gas, gallon for gallon.
And knowing my dad's take on the business, I'd say it's this way everywhere. He's hauled all over the east, and south east, even down to texas several times. About 6 times a year he and 4 other trucks take loads of E100 to DC for the feds...
There are a few gas stations here localy that advertize pure gasoline. They run about 10 cents a gallon higher.
Tom, is there any way to format flex fuel pumps into these older cars?
It's not the pump's function to to compensate for the different stoichiometric ratio (that's in the ecm and ignition, etc), rather, it's what the pump, the seals, and all the parts that come in contact with 85% ethanol are made of. Ethanol is more corrosive than gas, so different plastics have to be used.
My wife had an '02 S10, it was Flex Fuel. Right after I met her, the fuel pump went out, and I put a new one in. 450 bucks.
Here's another thought to worry over: alcohol draws water. A tank sitting around with any kind of opening, no matter how small, will attract moisture if not tightly sealed.
I thought the 10 percent min, was only applicable to 87 octane fuels. Around here there are a few stations that sell premium 90, stated on the pump as "no ethanol".
KS isnt even required to post on the pumps the ethanol content or if there is any. Other than E85.
This ethanol me off, I only burn a tank ever month or 2, but I dont like it sitting in the tank.
Great info guys. I am stuck for words on this. But i visited my buddy over at the POWER shop and he tells me the blend is over15%in our area. He has a due hickey to test the fuel. This fuel is playing havoc on his equipment as well. I am researching pumps as we speak. NONE OF THE PUMPS SAY THEY ARE ALCOHOL COMPATIBLE. I find this strange with the fuels they blend today. Thanks for the info Guys i appreciate you time and knowledge on this subject. Needless to say i am very concerned over the fuels for the older vehicles. Thanks Tom
I think the 10% is the maximum amount allowed in my state. Any more and dead cars would start lining the sides of the road. Its pretty much garbage. They dont put it in marine or aviation fuel. Really shouldn't be running it in anything in my opinion. Im sure the material being stripped from the rubber in the pump and lines isnt doing the injectors and valves any favors.
Just another way to get rid of our old POS cars. Make you change the fuel pump every year. Assholes.
82 i have actually considered this as a viable answer. Example my state still does asm25-25 emission testing on 95 and down vehicles, And my state slashed the emission levels in half on these cars, As the matter of fact the test numbers for older cars and OBD1 vehicles are twice as strict as when they were built. My state has personal property tax on cars every year. One can figure that older cars dont bring in TAX DOLLARS. I firmly believe this is part tof the problem and i believe it is a definite PLOT TO GET RID OF OLD CARS!! Thanks
Wow I thought it was bad here!!!! NY tends to follow right in the footsteps of CA in a lot of things, or so it's said. It's honestly pretty easy to do what you want with your car as long as it's not OBD II. Downstate they JUST recently eliminated "high-enhanced" emissions testing or whatever it's called, where it was the same thing, near NYC if it was a '95 or older, it would get chassis dyno'd and sniffed. Around here just about anything older than 2000 is starting to rot, another five years? Plenty of total rustbuckets already by that point...
What state do you live in? I think I'd move, I couldn't deal with that sort of oppression.
Yeah, I knew the pump can't compensate for the mixture of fuel to make the engine run better. I just figured the flex fuel pumps would be made of materials that could tolerate the mixture of ethanol and gas and perhaps the pump could last longer. Of course, it would not help if the pump had gotten ran dry or of dirt had got to it. Just a thought. I don't believe a regular in tank or frame mounted pump would do any better than a manual pump. No need to modify if it doesn't help anything.
I totally agree, although we are lucky we do not have mandatory emission testing in Illinois
Yet!!!!
Wow, that is rediculous. 2 x as strict as new, that isnt even close to logical. I guess the voters dont care about classics out there, or werent made aware of the vote, assuming it was even on the ballot.
It definitely sucks. Thank god JR has a repair plate in the body shop. NO EMISSIONS REQUIRED with it. some guys register in TEXAS. I am told many people with motor homes ude texas as their home state even though they are on the road and some dont have permanent addresses. ESCAPEES is an organization that can do this i am told
I see a lot of trailers in NY registered to Maine. 5 years for the plate as opposed to one.
Yes sir! Everything's better in Texas!
:headbang:
Yes sir! Everything's better in Texas!
I know that but i want to move but no one wants to come with ME HIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Might just work after ALL
Ok pulled the tank today on my BIRD. FIREBIRD that is. And the whole thing stunk like hell. It was filled with rust colored gas and the sock was in good shape other than this disgusting thing they call gas. It turned a dark dark Yellow or orange. I am going to install a stainless tank and pickup without the sock. I am planning on installing an outside Pre-Filter so i can change it without dropping the tank. The fuel is app 4 months old and i use stable. I am going to use another brand as a test. BP is my normal fuel but i am going to switch. Any ideas of what happened. Please comment. The pump is next on my list. Is their a better stable available. The guys at the local MARINA tell me that the stable for boat engines is much better. Any opinions?? Thanks
I don't know how I missed this thread.
About 2 years ago I noticed my car was getting 5-10% worse gas mileage after a tune up. I was sure I had a bad spark plug or something and couldn't figure it out. There were days when I was driving over 400 miles a day for work, and this was a big impact. I went from 27-29mpg average freeway to 24-27mpg. I stopped filling up at a local maverik gas station and my mileage went back up. Some of my work trucks at fuel pump when filled with maverik gas, so I assumed it was just cruddy gas.
Started filling up at flying j's and 7-11 and all was good. Chevron and philips 66 and conoco gas stations started doing the same thing, worse mileage, slight loss in power.
Found out in june 2010 utah joined the 10% club. I think it ought to be against the law to water down gas. Almost every 7-11 no longer has pumps, and flying j's are generally a ways off now that I don't drive so much freeway.
Locally we have several gas stations that started a website called no ethonal partnership or something like that. There's about 6 in about a 25 mile area, and I stop and fill up at one everytime I can.
One plug though, I could advance my timing from 12 degree's to a bit over 16 without any pinging, and slightly better throttle response. Still cruddy gas mileage though. My crown vic I can barely hit 20mpg average over a tank with 100% freeway now. Before I could hit 22-23mpg.
the guys at the marina are also using marine gas which is ethanol free.
Thank you i did not know that. That is a great point!!!!! Is that correct!!! Never crossed my mind. I am going to check that out. THANK YOU
This site is pretty informative. I assume the info is correct.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_additive_safe_with_e10_list.html