Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: sarjxxx on March 02, 2012, 06:48:25 PM

Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: sarjxxx on March 02, 2012, 06:48:25 PM
Well my engine light has been on for a while, I figured because of no EGR but I decided to self test anyway. I got some strange ones.

KOEO I got,
31 -EGR valve position sensor failure, no surprise,
67 -Neutral safety switch curcuit failure?,
84 -EGR solenoid failure, again, no surprise,
85 -Canister purge solenoid curcuit failure, that explains some things but I have no idea why its showing up.

CM I got,
29 -VSS reading malfunction???,
31 again,
51 -ECT signal too high?,
54 -ACT signal to high?, and
96 -fuel pump secondary circuit failure?

I tried running a KOEO but it won't work. What I mean by that is when I start it up it idles normal for a second, then jumps to about 2000 real quick then back down to just below normal, and then I get a solid CEL and let it sit for a few minutes, never got anything. I did this a few times. Same thing every time. Never got an EID code either. I have no idea why its doing that to me...

Also I'm a little confused about why the heck I'm getting weird codes like 29, 51, 54, 67 and 96. Does anyone know how to clear the CM codes? I'd like to clear them and then drive it for a few days and see if they return. Also how the heck to you fix 85?
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: ACCEPT on March 02, 2012, 08:12:07 PM
is your cougar a 1988 ls???
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: sarjxxx on March 02, 2012, 09:09:06 PM
Why yes it is. (as you can see in my signature):)
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: softtouch on March 02, 2012, 09:44:45 PM
To clear the CM codes, pull the jumper off when it is displaying the codes.
Run it again to confirm they cleared.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: softtouch on March 02, 2012, 09:55:01 PM
Quote from: sarjxxx;382766
I tried running a KOEO but it won't work. What I mean by that is when I start it up it idles normal for a second, then jumps to about 2000 real quick then back down to just below normal, and then I get a solid CEL and let it sit for a few minutes, never got anything. I did this a few times. Same thing every time. Never got an EID code either. I have no idea why its doing that to me...

Did you turn the key off and wait at least five seconds after the KOEO before starting it for the KOER?
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: sarjxxx on March 02, 2012, 10:26:30 PM
Quote from: softtouch;382803
To clear the CM codes, pull the jumper off when it is displaying the codes.
Run it again to confirm they cleared.

You are meaning the STI jumper right?
Quote from: softtouch;382805
Did you turn the key off and wait at least five seconds after the KOEO before starting it for the KOER?

I waited much longer. In fact I even tried pulling the ground jumper off and running the car for a while and then trying again, even though the engine was already warmed up.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: softtouch on March 02, 2012, 11:44:07 PM
Yes the STI jumper.
The STI should be jumpered to "signal return" not ground.
It confirms that the signal return is good and that is important.
I know some write ups on line say to jumper to ground, but that is not by the book.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: ZondaC12 on March 03, 2012, 02:21:37 AM
Ground out the lone STI connector.

Turn the key to 'run', wait for the fuel pump to run and solenoids to click, etc. Wait for the check engine light to flash its super-fast initial sequence too just for the hell of it. I say this only because I did a KOER tonight and this was my exact process.

Interrupt that blinking, go ahead and start the vehicle. Wait for the engine ID to flash. 4 flashes = V8. Don't know about a V6. Probably 3 lol. Once that is done, wait a few seconds I guess, firmly press the brake pedal and hold it for at least a second, then let off. Jerk the steering wheel to one side and bring it back. There is no power steering pressure sensor on these cars...maybe it detects the change in idle. Do it anyway, easy enough lol. Then be patient. The idle will go up and down as things are tested. You should see the codes after this.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: sarjxxx on March 03, 2012, 10:47:16 PM
ok that could be the problem... I was doing what FFI was saying and just starting it right up with it grounded out. I guess I will try jumping to SIG RTN and waitng for the KOEO to start before I turn it on. Let yall know tomorrow.

These need to do the goose test too, correct?
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: softtouch on March 04, 2012, 12:50:40 AM
Run KOEO with STI jumpered to Signal Return.
If it doesn't work it means the signal return line is blown.
If you get codes it means the Signal Return line is good.

Were you able to reset the CM codes?

When KOEO finishes outputting codes it goes into a test mode called "Output State Check" and stays in this mode until you turn the key off.
Earlier I wanted to make sure you turned the key off to get out of this mode before you started the KOER.

You don't have to wait for the KOEO test to start before you start KOER.

If during KOER you get a single pulse (Dynamic Response pulse), this is when you do the momentary WOT (kick down test).
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: sarjxxx on March 04, 2012, 04:30:45 PM
Ok so I jumpered STI to SIG RTN and got KOEO codes, same as before, and was able to clear the CM codes using the above method. Still can't get KOER codes. The car starts like normal, idles for about 3 seconds, jumps to 2000 rpm for about 2 seconds, then idles back down to normal, then about 5 seconds later I get a solid CEL and stays that way for at least 3 minutes.

Is it possible that for some bizzare reason, KOER was not integrated into the EFI 3.8 ECU's? I only ask because of other strange things, like only having one oxygen sensor on 88 3.8's.:wtf:
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 04, 2012, 05:57:43 PM
If it doesn't work it means the signal return line is blown.

If blown he would have several codes in KOEO. Any sensor that depends on SIG RTN will show up with faults.


Below is an ECM with a good SIG RTN

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-56.jpg)


Bellow is an ECM with a bad SIG RTN

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-28.jpg)
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: softtouch on March 04, 2012, 06:34:52 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;382984
If it doesn't work it means the signal return line is blown.

If blown he would have several codes in KOEO. Any sensor that depends on SIG RTN will show up with faults.

Tom, I had him switch from grounding the STI to jumpering STI to Sig Return for pulling codes to verify the Sig Return was good.
If Sig Return is blown, jumpering STI to Sig Return will not activate the self tests.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: softtouch on March 04, 2012, 06:53:36 PM
Quote from: sarjxxx;382969
Ok so I jumpered STI to SIG RTN and got KOEO codes, same as before, and was able to clear the CM codes using the above method. Still can't get KOER codes. The car starts like normal, idles for about 3 seconds, jumps to 2000 rpm for about 2 seconds, then idles back down to normal, then about 5 seconds later I get a solid CEL and stays that way for at least 3 minutes.

Is it possible that for some bizzare reason, KOER was not integrated into the EFI 3.8 ECU's? I only ask because of other strange things, like only having one oxygen sensor on 88 3.8's.:wtf:

The KOER should run on your car.
I am trying to think of something external to the EEC that would cause this.
1. Check the EEC ground. You should have a small "pig-tail" wire (BK/LG) on the negative battery cable that goes to a one wire connector from the harness.

2. We need to figure out why you get the "Nuetral Safety Switch" code.
Pin 30 of the EEC has 12v when ignition switch is in start.
When the ign switch is not in start and the transmission is in park or neutral, pin 30 "sees" ground through the N/S switch and the starter relay coil.

Maybe the EEC thinks you are not in Park or Neutral when you run KOER.

Is everything stock in the transmission area?
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: sarjxxx on March 04, 2012, 07:12:18 PM
Quote from: softtouch;383003
The KOER should run on your car.
I am trying to think of something external to the EEC that would cause this.
1. Check the EEC ground. You should have a small "pig-tail" wire (BK/LG) on the negative battery cable that goes to a one wire connector from the harness.

2. We need to figure out why you get the "Nuetral Safety Switch" code.
Pin 30 of the EEC has 12v when ignition switch is in start.
When the ign switch is not in start and the transmission is in park or neutral, pin 30 "sees" ground through the N/S switch and the starter relay coil.

Maybe the EEC thinks you are not in Park or Neutral when you run KOER.

Is everything stock in the transmission area?

Everything is NOT stock in the transmission area, or the starter circuit. I have not changed any wiring in the transmission connectors, but there is the fact that I swapped to a floor shifted aod from a 90 tbird. I don't think that should matter though, since the trans is definitely in park, and I did not have to modify any harnesses or wiring to hook it up.

I'm wondering however, if the the way I rewired my starter circuit has anything to do with it. I installed the PMGR starter, and in the process changed a bunch of wiring... like eliminating the stock starter solenoid, since the new one has it built onto it, and adding a standalone push button start to eliminate the need for the tiny wire from the solenoid. With it wired that way, I can engage the starter anytime I want, including key-off, and with the trans in gear. However the car will not start without the key being on. All wiring that had been attached to the original starter solenoid I moved to a mega fuse holder wired inline to the main battery cable. Safer, and more sensible than having everything bolted to the one side of the solenoid.

As for the bl/lg wire, yes it is there.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: softtouch on March 04, 2012, 08:16:05 PM
Well I suspect that your rewireing is causing the N/S switch code and the KOER problem.
The question is, do you want to try to fix it?

Does your push button start go to the R/LB wire to the TFI to retard spark while cranking?
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: sarjxxx on March 04, 2012, 08:20:05 PM
the push button is wired directly from an always hot fuse, to the button, then straight into the starter. What I SHOULD HAVE done, was wire the stock starter wire to the new small wire that goes to the starter, but I wanted to retain the remote starter capability of the push button.

Let me try that, I will temporarily rewire the stock starter wire, and crank it up with the switch, then see what happens.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 05, 2012, 06:22:30 AM
Quote from: softtouch;382994
Tom, I had him switch from grounding the STI to jumpering STI to Sig Return for pulling codes to verify the Sig Return was good.
If Sig Return is blown, jumpering STI to Sig Return will not activate the self tests.


I know that. Some conversions from auto to stick will blow out the SIG RTN if not properly dun. Just saying. Seen a lot of Sig Rtn blown out in Fords!!

Have him check pin 30 for crank battery and ground from NSS.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 05, 2012, 06:44:55 AM
When the ign switch is not in start and the transmission is in park or neutral, pin 30 "sees" ground through the N/S switch and the starter relay coil.


True but if that circuit was messed up the car would not crank. So the crank ckt is ok. His pin 30 is not connected or Has an open wire feeding the pin 30 on the ECM. Sounds like pin 30 is not seeing ground through the NSS and start solenoid winding. That is the only way the ECM can set a NSS CODE if i am correct!!

Check pin 30 for a ground when not cranking and a battery when cranking will tell that story real quick.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: softtouch on March 05, 2012, 01:05:56 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;383050
When the ign switch is not in start and the transmission is in park or neutral, pin 30 "sees" ground through the N/S switch and the starter relay coil.


True but if that circuit was messed up the car would not crank. So the crank ckt is ok. His pin 30 is not connected or Has an open wire feeding the pin 30 on the ECM. Sounds like pin 30 is not seeing ground through the NSS and start solenoid winding. That is the only way the ECM can set a NSS CODE if i am correct!!

Check pin 30 for a ground when not cranking and a battery when cranking will tell that story real quick.

Reread his post Tom.
He has disconnected the stock wiring to ths starter relay. He has a direct wire from his starter "push button" to his PMGR starter.
This leaves pin 30 floating and bypasses the N/S switch.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: ACCEPT on March 08, 2012, 04:47:23 PM
Do you can initialize KOEO?

this post is very interesting to my.

regards
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 08, 2012, 06:29:09 PM
Quote from: softtouch;383075
Reread his post Tom.
He has disconnected the stock wiring to ths starter relay. He has a direct wire from his starter "push button" to his PMGR starter.
This leaves pin 30 floating and bypasses the N/S switch.


That will set the code. No question about that. I actually did not understand what he was talking about. The way he wired it if i may is NOT something i would do. It seems kind of silly to wire it the way he did. Being as the car is an auto to begin with and the wiring should have been re- used.
Title: can't pull KOER codes, and some strange KOEO codes
Post by: TOM Renzo on March 08, 2012, 06:39:12 PM
OK soft read his post again. This is dangerous what he did. Being able to start the car in gear is CRAZY. All he had to do is use the original enable lead from the fender solenoid and retain his NSS switch on his new setup. This wiring he did eliminates the NSS and THAT IS BAD BIG TIME. Thanks for pointing that out. I did not read the post as carefully as i should have. If i was him i would wire a NSS in that circuit pr0nTO Before that car takes off on someone. Real dangerous to be BLUNT.

Soft correct Pin 30 swinging in the breeze no can do the codes KOER. Plain and simple. I will assume that is why ford did this to check the NSS for proper operation for SURE

Thanks next time i will read posts twice before answering. I totally miss read it . And assumed no one would eliminate an NSS. That is NUTS. Please excuse my language but that is extremely Dangerous.