What ler would you guys suggest for a 3.8 mine seems to be rotting out so i want to get it replaced. Also is the tailpipe 2.5 or 2.25? Thanks
Glass packs, or chambered lers flow better, and will gain u power and gas mileage. They tend to make V6s sound funny though. I have never heard a turbo ler on a V6. Anyone else hear one with one? If u want to keep it factory quiet, use as close to the factory as possible.
I want it to be louder, yeah that's what I've heard that glass packs will make it sound like an import.
I would not say glass packs make them sound like an import. Imports sound much better. Chambered lers would be more of a performance import sound. I am still curious as to what turbo s would sound like.
Would you happen to know the diameter of the pipe?
Would not be 2.5. It would be 2 or 2.25. Most likely 2.25. Sure would be nice if it was 2.5!
When I had a 3.8 many moons ago, I had dual 2 1/4 pipes and a nice set of turbo lers. Nice sound, and the duals didn't hurt the car any.
The real secret to getting a sweet exhaust note on the V6 is having an equal length Y-pipe or a dual exhaust. Its the only way to get the exhaust pulses to arrive to your ears in proper order and prevent it from sounding like a poorly tuned bag of . If you can do this, almost any ler will sound good. Otherwise I would just recommend getting the quietest ler you can to hide the chaotic exhaust pulsing.
I dont want anything super crazy or flashy just want it to have a deeper tone.
how about something like this?
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s320x320/423384_599426604143_202200388_31487980_218329676_n.jpg)
No I don't think i need to sea foam my engine haha
My 3.8 (that I mentioned earlier) had full dual exhaust and a crossover pipe.
Yup, the duals sound great because they are equal. On the single the left bank has to travel further than the right bank, so the pulses are all out of time and make for an unpleasing sound no matter what ler you use.
(http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4323/3421/23306710028_large.jpg)
Does the stock mustang/tbird/cougar 5.0 with dual exhausts come with a h pipe and would it bolt up?
Stock ler. The 3.8 does not sound good IMO.
Reason turbo lers are called TURBO is because they RESTRICT EXHAUST FLOW LIKE A TURBO!!!! lers dont make HP. Any ler will loose HP. And increasing pipe diameter can loose a great amount of HP If you go to BIG. Bigger is not better in this area. A Y pipe cancels out NOISE from frequency differential and can make more HP than duals in some cases. But normally a dual conversion with a connector pipe can gain app 12 HP. Cat only exhausts make the most HP APP 20-23. This is not me it is from the dyne
I doubt running just cats is legal here in California, and it would sound like . So far it looks like i should save up for a h pipe.
That's mostly what I've always heard as well. Lots of guys around here with small straight pipes. No lers. No cats. Man, sounds like !!! A few of us down town have talked, and I told them noise doesn't mean power.LOL.
I know that wasn't the topic here, just saying. But with the 3.8, I had two cats, the crossover pipe (H-Pipe), and two lers then out the back. Sounded good, and seemed mildly more peppy.
I couldn't find one for our cars with the 3.8. Had the ler shop make it.
Vinny it is simple thanks for your post. By the way you are 100% correct
Hot gases move faster than cold gases through a system. Once the gases cool down they get heavy and are harder to move in an exhaust system. (EXAMPLE MOST NOVICE MECHANICS SEEM TO THINK REMOVING A CAT INCREASES HP. IF IT IS NOT CLOGGED AND HAS A LOW CELL COUNT IT DECREASES HP BY ELIMINATING IT LOL) Running cat only exhausts are legal in most states probably other than CA but i dont know the law in CA. But in my state lers do not count as emission required. The cat or cats keep the gases hotter and that means they are easier to move through the pipes. As does a smaller pipe diameter. Noise does not mean HP as some think. As i was told by WILLIAM TYLER JENKENS the noise has to stay in the engine where it makes HP. So increasing heat as a cat does increases exhaust speed and that helps scavenging. Increasing the diameter to a certain extent helps but to big and velocity decrease the gases get heavy and hard to move. That is why a lot of the car companies are working on cat systems only. They are called CAT LERS. And they will be showing up very soon from the OE. We have dun extensive research on exhaust systems over the years. Other than TURBO cars you have to design a very sophisticated system to gain HP. Remember an exhaust system does not make HP as some believe. Thanks
Electronic lers are another example the engineers are working to increase exhaust flow. Every ler on this planet restricts exhaust flow. That is their job to sound differently from restriction.
PUMPING LOSSES
Whenever an engine modification increases the average area of the airflow paths into and out of an engine, there is a chance the velocity of the flow will decrease. Most of the time the factor of velocity decrease is very small compared to the area increased, so flow is generally increased. If modifications are taken too far, the velocity will decrease more than the area increases, so flow is adversely affected (example - four inch exhaust system on a 1.6 liter engine). Bigger is not better in this particular area. Vinny i have been doing this many many years and i have spent endless hours on the DYNE. We test this stuff because my TC is basically a small motor and i need to get each and every bit of HP out of it. With a big V8 It is a little different. But a big car with a small low torque motor you have to extract every single HP available. How else can i embarras those V8 Guys. Thanks and have a good weekend Vinnie
You too Tom. have a great weekend. I'm gonna order pizza and watch DVD's with my boy while my sweetie is in Texas at a Daughtry concert with her gal pals.
Sounds good i just ordered some old DVD movies and am going to watch them as we speak Thanks. Have Fun
All exhaust systems are a restriction. The name of the game is to reduce that restriction as much as possible, while maintaining a acceptable sound, and of course getting the poisonous gasses safely away from the driver and passengers. Perhaps 2.5 would be too big for a 3.8 with duals and good flowing s. Its a good size for a V8. Not enough restriction can cause the exhaust valves to burn up. Duals would be a good idea for sound and flow. H or X pipe makes it even better. Yes, turbo lers do restrict. All lers do, but they flow way better than OEM.
Not enough restriction can cause the exhaust valves to burn up.
Old WIVES TALE
but they flow way better than OEM.
Not completely true. Aftermarket lers are basically designed for different sounding exhaust not back pressure or flow.
Some say that "an engine needs backpressure to work correctly." Is this true?
No. This idea is a myth. As with all myths,
People fear that too little backpressure will lead to valve burning. That is not true unless the engine is running extremely LEAN
I know a guy with a sn-95 3.8 that was running 4" duals on a stock n/a block, without any problems. He was running a stock computer, no chip. He said it just made it a bit louder. He got it installed because he was going to a high hp 418" stroker block, but ended up putting it off for a year or two, so he put the 3.8 back in.
No cross over pipe is required for the 3.8, where it has a ballanced firing order. Part of the v-8 rumble, is what requires a cross over pipe. Two cylinders adjacent to each other fire one right after another. This makes that bank move too much air, so a cross over pipe is used to stop the air from "backing up". Basically, you do not need a cross over, and technically, neither does a v-8 depending on your setup. If you are running a good enough flowing exhaust and intake setup, the collector works as the merging pipe. Your exhaust system should actually be setup according to your firing order.
When we tested MAN A FREE exhausts on in lines we tested this by pairing off cylinders. (Three in to two) Here is what we found
H pipe has a slightly narrower power band than an x pipe does . The X pipe also smooths things out a good bit more and gives mid and top . But it depends on the firing order in a V8 as stated above. I have never seen a late model Mustang without an H pipe because of the firing order. Pulse smoothing. That is why i posted single exhausts can make more HP over some true duals.
Here is what i wrote
A Y pipe cancels out NOISE from frequency differential and can make more HP than duals in some cases.
NOTE Frequencies differential is what i call Siamese cylinder firing.
Cross over pipes always increase bottom end. H pipes work on upper rpm band. Once again i have never seen a stock later model mustang without one. What do i know i am the JERK WITH A DYNE!!!!!!!
http://www.spintechlers.com/x-pipes-h-pipes-y-pipes/cat_57.html
Every car guy on the planet knows the distinct sound of a mustang because of it's firing order and H pipe.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What I was trying to say that I didn't really get out, was that a 3.8 needs no cross over pipe. if you do all the pipe on your own, it would be easier to skip it. If you used a v-8 kit, I am not sure if a cross over would help or not.
Tom, why must you make every thread into an argument? We were simply telling our opinions, and what has worked for us. Sorry about the whole "not enough restriction" thing. It is just something I have always heard. It makes sense that it is just an old wives tale. Turbo lers have always worked for me in the past. Seem to get more power with them than stock lers. Apparently, they work for Vinnie as well. Haystack makes an interesting point about crossovers. I for one would have a cross over anyhow. Local exhaust shops will put them in for a little bit of nothing.
Chrome i am not arguing at all. I personally like to pass on info to help people as i do on all the GM sites as well as the Porsche Honda Toyota Mazda ETC. If i sound like i am arguing i apologize. Stacks brought out a good point on Pairing which we did a great amount of testing on. As the matter of fact an early gen chevy can gain a lot of HP by a 4-7 swap. Just as a Mustang is a unique sounding car with it,s firing order and H pipe. Look at it this way. Years ago guys wanted to swap out their old 3 speed manual transmissions for the Muncie 4 speeder. We did a lot of them and most of the swaps were a disasters. Here is why The 3 speeder had a lower first gear than the Muncie. Like some where around 2.8-2.9 but the Muncie even in the higher ratio was only 2.52-2.56 depending on the model. And an optional 220 first. Well heavy car reduced first gear ratio the car fell on it's face. But no one cared they were up grading to a 4 speeder and in their mind the car performed better. The guys that got the close ratio boxes 220 were really disappointed pairing it up with a final drive of like 3.08 ETC. I explained this to them before hand and they did not care until the car performed like . So just adding a gear 3 to 4 forward was not the full story. A rear gear swap was needed in the car as well. Just an example. Of how systems must be balanced like the exhaust. As Vinny pointed out Loud is not Fast!!!!
First off, all the piping is 2.25", secondly, in my opinion, a magnaflow sounds great with stock piping and cats. Not extremely loud, but does have some grumble to it and can really be heard when you step on it. I ran a glasspack for a while, but that was after the cats blew themselves empty and I was also dumping right before the rear axle. It did sound really good though. I am running a thrush right now, and while it does have a nice idle, it doesn't sound so great at high rpm's. In fact, it really isn't that loud. But I am running a single 2.5" y pipe not duals so that could have something to do with it. It might sound better with the cats though, as I run the same ler on my truck, and it sounds amazing.
If you want to hear what mine sounds like with the thrush just to give you an idea it is on my project thread in my sig on one of the last pages. But keep in mind mine is currently a complete custom set with headers and no cats.
Also, do not be afraid to go on youtube and listen to what the 3.8 mustang guys have put on their cars. They have almost the exact same engine, (granted, yes the fuel injection system is a little different, but its the same idea), and unless they have a fully custom exhaust system, whatever ler they have put on theirs will sound almost exactly the same on yours.
I was also dumping right before the rear axle.
That is illegal and should be avoided. Exhausts must exit past the rear axle in most states unless OE designed. Also the fuems can enter the cabin with a design this way. Not judging just giving info. But i know many that do it. By the way the shorter the piping the louder the system even with lers. As i point out it is a system and any changes reflect back pressure and Noise.
Yes, I agree, and that was part of the reason I got rid of that setup. It was really only supposed to be temp anyway b/c I was curious about how the glasspack would sound and it was easier to rip my tailpipe out and dump it than it was to tie it in. Although, using a side exit system really is not that bad and I am considering doing it again when I put my 50's on.
If you want power, the less exhaust you have, a majority of the time, not always, is almost always going to be faster. Even if it loses power on a dyno, it will be faster. If your exhaust is free flowing enough, the engine isn't going to care if it has a cross over pipe or not. If your running 2" primary's (very common for high rpm 302 based motors), your restriction is going to be after the collector, and the scavanging will occour well before cross over pipe. It really doesn't make any sense that bottling a exhaust system to connect it with a tube farther down the line would be faster then dumps.
Now making it work on a car where you drive everywhere, take anywhere do anything, you might not be happy with a 2" collector, 8000+ redline, a 4" dumps. But if you are racing a car and it does not have to pass emissions or state saftey tests, your not looking for maximum performance out of your engine.
To answer the op's question, you can order the entire tail pipe from autozone. I would buy the cheapest ler in the correct size. I replaced the entire cat back on my 88 wagon for $80, including lers.
If you want power, the less exhaust you have, a majority of the time, not always, is almost always going to be faster. Even if it loses power on a dyno
EXPLAIN HOW THIS WORKS ??????????????????????
This happens when you go to certain web sites populated by know-it alls who spout things as fact without clarifying that THE COMBINATION matters ... they say things like "That is a myth" or "Old School " thinking and "Every car will be faster in the 1/4 mile with open headers no matter what" .
Now what is actually true is sometimes an engine can show a slight drop in "dyno hp" but actually accelerate through he RPM band faster .
Full tube headers? Dumps? We have gone way beyond a simple question of ler replacemet. Not just after power here. He wants a good sound as well. A small rumble is all he can hope for without it sounding like total . Besides, I don't think we should be getting so carried away here with exhaust. It's just a 3.8 V6. Only so much flow can be achieved before we just start spinning our wheels.
Easily, hp is just a number. To basis of which power is mesured on its own, is flawed. Similar to how mpg is about the worst way to mesure mileage. It should be gallons per mile. Taking a car from 40 to 50mpg saves virtally no gas compared to a car that goes from 14 to 18mpg, over the same trip. Mesured in gallons per mile, the numbers are way more accurate.
Hp is mesured using a calculation between torque and rpm's. Going to light weight brakes on your rear axle, lowers your rwhp. Because you have less rotating weight, the calculation assumes you have less power, even though the car will accelerate quicker. Same with gearing. A lower gear ration will have more rwhp then the same car with high gearing, while not always being faster.
I have been told many times I am wrong, but I honestly cannot belive that the best way to get power out of an engine, is to restrict everything coming out of it. If the car is not tuned correcty, that is one thing. But an engine will be more efficent, with better air flow, as long as you can keep up with the fuel.
Which car would be faster, one that dyno's 450hp, or a car with only 425hp? Let's assume everything is the same as far as weight, chassi, base of engine.
Let's say the 450hp, reaches that power at 4000rpm. And the 425hp car makes it at 7500rpms. Even if the gearing was matched, my money would be on the car with 425hp.
So once again, hp is just a number that can only give you a primitive calculation, that is only as good as the information you put into it. If you cannot acurately read the hp to begin with, then you cannot compare it directly to another car. You can however, compare all the parimiters together and get a good idea of what's going on.
At the end of the day, if you want to brag about dyno numbers, go hang out at the corral where every mustang has 500hp on a stock block and runs 13's.
Hey I answered the OP to the best of my ability...:dunno:
Easily, hp is just a number.
Thats right the more you have the better it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fascinating Just fascinating to say the least.
Engine dynes and chassis dynes are two different animals.
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-89.jpg)
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-52.jpg)
This engine we delivered and when it was installed in the car lost HP on the chassis dyne.(all engines do of course) When engines are installed in the car and tested it looses HP. That is why i normally dont post the HP Numbers. Unless the customer insists on it like this one. Chassis dynos are the bottom line PERIOD. The customer was extremely happy with the numbers at a price tag of 5 GRAND. But in the real world that car will be destroyed on the street with this low HP number. That engine most likely made around 380 To the wheels or so. Anemic to say the least. But it only cost him 5 big ones.
HP LOSS
Definitive formula around -15% for manual and between 18-22% for autos.
If you are using a Dynojet both drum speed and engine speed are measured and used to take out any effects of gear torque multiplication. so please rethink that statement!!!
If the car is not tuned correctly, that is one thing.
This statement is correct. But you fail to understand exhaust is part of tuning. Or didn't you know that!!!!!
Yeah everyone's posting like I'm going to be racing Nascar...just wanted a suggestion on some good sounding lers,Setups,etc. Not looking to gain any horsepower/could care less this car will be a dd only good for spanking Geo Metro's and ricers.
Sounds good I will bow out. Just thought you would like to know the facts. Sorry for clouding the conversation with facts i should have known better. Thanks
I like the way flowtech's sound on my V8..... I'd do some searching on youtube, that's how I ended up with what I got.
Again, I would highly suggest a Magnaflow. Great deep low rumble. If your looking for cheap then go the thrush route though. I paid about $35 for my ler. And honestly, I think the glasspacks sound awesome, and they cost only $20.
These should give you some ideas, and there's plenty more out there on youtube to look up:
Single glasspack with stock y pipe and cats:
[video=youtube;I71vk8BSmX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I71vk8BSmX8[/video]
[video=youtube;rFSpSBAKDME]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFSpSBAKDME[/video]
Magnaflow with stock y pipe and cats:
[video=youtube;B8jSt7Q7sq4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8jSt7Q7sq4[/video]
thrush welded with stock y pipe and cats:
[video=youtube;YBwsZxGOzm8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBwsZxGOzm8[/video]
my car with thrush welded and catless y pipe:
[video=youtube;-TpzGlINy_4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TpzGlINy_4[/video]
Thanks Steve! That was helpful. I had a 66 Mustang with an I6 and a cherry bomb. It sounded much worse than those. Yours sounds fantastic at idle. As for the upper RPM, I feel that duals with a crossover would quiet it down a bit and make it sound less chaotic. To each his own. Don't mean to put down your ride, it is an incredible machine and you have done a great job with it.
So after hearing sarjxxx's cougar I fell in love with the thrush welds. I decided to get them and wow does it make a huge difference.
Your info HAS been discussed here before.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?19019-ler-flow-tests-and-Exhaust-theory
Just sayin'
My first cat was an '87 3.8.
I kept the stock manifolds, put dual 2.25" pipes on it with catalytic converters and Thrush turbo pack lers. I know plenty of guys that have put duals on 3.8 litre Mustangs and IMO the setup on my old 3.8 sounded WAY better than all of them. In no way did this car sound like an import. Deep basso rumble at idle and part throttle. It started to get the hint of the sound of a radial engine at full tilt. It was LOUD though. It rivaled Ford 4.6's with SLP Loudmouths as far as sheer volume. Car alarms were set off on a regular basis.