what in the name of god was ford thinking with the SOHC 4.6 in the newer F150's? i had to replace a head on an '04 last week and it was a COMPLETE and total nightmare, from start to finish.. first the intake, the the stupid exhaust manifold with their piss poor frame design that blocks all the bottom studs, then the starter (my hand is still cramped and hurting after that 1).. THEN the stupid studs that are bolted to the back of the head, vacuum lines that are too short to pull the intake forward to remove (and can't get to without doing so) and finally.. THEIR POS HEAD DESIGN.. this truck needed a new head, because it blew the spark plug out, stripping the threads.. the dealer did their heli-coil ghetto rig and that blew out a month later..
/end bs rant :mad:
Time sert wasn't done right. i'm afraid its common on those. Sucks that it gave you a difficult time.
dificult is putting it lightly.. i'd love to know what the job calls for in flat-rate time, because i spent 3 wasteful days on that pos.. now that it's finally fixed, i convinced the owner to sell it and get a pre-97 F150
So much hate. So much anger.
Oh, and I've not heard of many LS1/LS2 engines spitting plugs....:flip:
good for the LSx's, way to make a tom statement.. had it been a GM truck with a 5.3, it would have been a 1 day job.. lets see you go through the bullsh*t and headaches i went through to get the job done, and not come out ranting about ford's half-assed design
and btw.. the cab-over design is no help in the matter.. talk about 1 hell of a screwed up design
Bet the guy buys a chevy next time if he is smart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way the 5.3 does not spit out plugs over the fenders. Please dont use my name in your posts i dont appreciate it one bit. By the way the 4.6 is a is not the sharpest knife in the draw. OR DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT
LOVE THE DESIGN THOUGH IT KEEPS ME IN CASH BEERS and MONEY.
Note the repair was not dun correctly on the thread repair. We repair them all the time with no issues. And the head removal is a bear but that is what it is. with 58 police cruses in our town that we service from time to time we see this all the time and their is a set procedure for plug changes. Once again i have not posted here in a while for obvious reasons . So GROW UP and dont use my name in your RANTS about the engine that is the best power plant on this PLANET. YES THAT WOULD BE THE LSX PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Thank you !!!!!!!! Now hold your breath stomp your feet and fire back at me i am waiting!!!!!
You design/engineer/build something better then.
Modern cars are complex. Deal with it or don't work on them.
OR
Instead of throwing a fit, you could look at it as a learning experience. Now you know what to look for the next time you decide to tackle this project.
Well said Chuck.
Really? I've seen you use other peoples names in posts on other boards. Nice double standard you've got there.
As for holding your breath and stomping your feet, weren't you the one who just recently went all "Joe Morgan", threw a baby fit, deleted all your old posts, took your toys and went home?
Back to the op's rant:
"Fitting ten gallons into a five gallon pail" is the only way manufacturers can make the vehicle light enough to meet CAFE regulations. Pretty much "a learn to work on them or stay home" situation. I wouldn't look for it to get any better. No, it's not pleasant working on a vehichle when you can't even see what your doing, but it's the way it is. I had a wonderful time changing the back 3 spark plugs and the pre-cat 02 sensor on the van, seeing how they're buried under the cowl, and you can't even see them from underneath. Just the way it is, and it's only going to get more difficult in the future.
We're NOT going to do this. Folks clear on that?
We did the plug fix on my brother in laws expedition, I didn't think it was that bad. Maybe the underhood is laid out different or something.
I've helped a friend do the repair on his '99 F truck, 5.4
While it was a little on the PITA side, I have worked on several worse engines....
Bad design? 3.8 Esshag? I don't even have to say anything
351M/400 Ford for example. No, the plugs don't blow out of those, but as far as a piss-poor design, they trump the 4.6/5.4
Bad oiling, distributor shafts twisting off, cams breaking...all of those have happened to every M engine I have ever seen.
I drive 2 different Chevy trucks pretty well every day, and with the exception of a fuel pump for each, and an ignition module for the 1/2 with the efi SBC, they've been problem free.
My '92 F truck with a 5.0 was also dead-nuts reliable.
It's all apples to oranges. Calling people names, acting like a like a little kid that doesn't get his/her way, and throwing fits is pretty ignorant. And to be honest, I'm sick of seeing the same ole "This engine or that engine is junk" from the same source, nearly every post.
You don't like 'em, that's fine, but Ford is no better and definitely not any worse with some of their designs. It's the nature of the beast, deal with it, get a sack, STFU, and live your life.
Really? I've seen you use other peoples names in posts on other boards. Nice double standard you've got there.
As for holding your breath and stomping your feet, weren't you the one who just recently went all "Joe Morgan", threw a baby fit, deleted all your old posts, took your toys and went home?
YES I AM and mostly because of guys like you. Anyone that posted they blew away a turbo Porsche at 80MPH to boot and did it 4 times with different cars in the same day is a little over the top. And you actually believed it. I have a tower in FRANCE FOR SALE JANGUS INTERESTED!!!! That's great a street driven TC wasting a 550HP Porsche. I took exception to that and called it BS as it was. So lets see if you disagree with something you are Banned and labeled a JERK. So do some soul searching JANGUS and them spout off. So keep in touch with those 2.3 guys that in their best day can make 350 RWH WOW I AM IMPRESSED. With that i would have said doing that job is a bear and i applaud SHADOW for accomplishing it. But we in the automotive field work on plenty of hard jobs .If you dont like to do it then DONT. With that i apologize to the board i was brought into this minding my own business. Sorry chuck just got me the wrong way. I will bow out again and i do enjoy the site 99% of you guys are great. SORRY AGAIN.
the 1 thing i don't get, is the fan shroud is massive.. remove it and you'll see there's plenty of room to move the motor forward 5-6 inches.. the fan is about 8-10" from the radiator, so it's not really crammed in there, they just shoved it against the firewall for god knows what reason
tom, the guy is anti chevy.. it's either ford or puppiesanese.. not my cup of tea, but whatever.. i prefer to stick with all american in my stable, with the exception of old toyota and mazda pickups.. i didn't say the 5.3's spit plugs, i just said if it was a chevy, the head removal would have been easier.. but the truck is now rolling around with a 'FOR SALE" sign in the back window.. he's going pre-97 F150.. you know, the GOOD, hard to beat down trucks.. i gave him some guidelines to help him find the perfect truck and he's on the hunt.. the guidelines were..
- 92-96 with as low of miles as possible
- NO LIFTED TRUCKS, as i've had way too much trouble keeping balljoints, wheel bearings and drag links in the junky TTB setup
- 5.0 or 5.8, for better power (he said the 4.6 is a dog.. no duh!)
- AUTO.. AUTO AUTO AUTO
- check for rust around the body mounts and the floor boards.. he lives up in hellertown, PA where they use a sh*t load of salt on the roads
and i left a little laughter piece for the next sucker that has to work on it.. yellow dot was already there, so i couldn't help myself
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/430475_10151298119710335_585700334_23229111_31285103_n.jpg)
It was directed at all involved, not just you. I'm tired of all the nastiness, from everyone.
I'll be glad when winter's over...
The reason would be better weight distribution. Bet the newer trucks handle better (less like trucks) than the old ones do.
Good point Chuck i agree100%.
didn't really take that into consideration, because it's a truck and the 2 don't normally go together.. at least not in the older stuff i like/own.. wouldn't have hurt them to pull the motor an inch forward, since 2/3 of the motor is even with or behind the wheel centerline
Weight distribution is the main thing. Ford had planned on the Lightning from the get-go with the '97+ up trucks, and it didn't make much sense to have 2 sets of frame/engine mounts, so the engine placement was common, and in the interest of better handling, well, that's how it ended up. Chevy did it years past with the Big Montes, I remember those having a fan shroud that would do a wind tunnel at McDonnell-Douglas proud..
As fast as the E4od goes in the '96 and older Ford, it's really no better than the AOD...get a lot of miles and too many heavy right feet, and it'll die as fast as anything else.
And the TTB doesn't need to be lifted to give problems, even running tires 2 or 3 inches taller than stock will make it go haywire. Add in a few hundred thousand miles with questionable maintenance, and you're probably going to need new ball joints right off the bat.
With that said, I'm kicking my own ass for ever getting rid of my '92. It as beat, dented, and looked like hell, but it still ran as hard as the day it was made. I just wish I'd done as much for the rest of the truck as I did in preventative measures for the 5.0. I literally wouldn't have hesitated to drive it to either coast.
And..when the GM guys ballyhoo the LS-whatever's greatness...just remember....ole Robert Yates and crew had the Windsor in mind when they helped the General. A dose of NASCAR expertise sure didn't hurt either.
Leave the egos at the door...if it's mechanical in nature, it WILL break down...sometime...
you complain like its new, yet its 8 model years old. its going to break sometime.
whine about how its designed, but yet you have no way of making it better. i just dont get it.
i work on these things day after day as a career. it's really not as bad as people make it out to be.
please don't even start on the ls1 lsx whatever you call it bs. the debate of ford vs chevy is really childish and pretty old. they both have there good and bad points. and they all build JUNK!
:rollin:There really IS something um, off, so to speak with you. Entertaining though.
These days people want trucks to feel more like cars. More daily driveable. I see more ladies driving them than ever. It's clear to see. Fords fit in finish across the board the last 10 years really shows and proves this. The earlier 97 up "new body style" trucks were freaking awful until Ford fixed them. Ditto for expedition.
Head replacement probably 6-8 hours by the seasoned tech.
When doing major engine work on these trucks it is easier to pull the body.
Tom and Chuck, I agree 100% that Tom's name should have not been used in that post. It was just rude and un-called for.
Shadow, I hate these modular engines with a passion. Yes, we have to grin and bear it when we have to work on the PITAs, but the original breakage was stupid. Spark plugs blowing out is a problem we used to never have. Ford is doing something way wrong with their head design. Yes, they have to follow government regulations for emissions and fuel consumption, however, Chevy and Dodge are not having these issues. I for one, do not want to own a truck with a 5.4, and sure will not own one with a 4.6. Glad I don't have to work on the stupid things anymore. I do not see it nessesary to pull the body on a gas engine. After pulling the shroud and accessories, there is plenty of room to stand in the engine compartment to work.
i prefer the good ol' days when a truck was a truck, car was a car.. kudos to improving the handling, but take away major points for the design flaws.. but i believe it'd probably be more in the 10-12 hour range, because of the work involved.. this was the first 1 i ever had to tackle, so i know it took me longer than it normally would..
the manual actually suggests pulling the motor, but i can't see that helping at all.. all i did was the passenger side head and that took long enough.. to remove, tuck away and remove all the necessary to pull the whole motor, you're probably looking at a day and a half for a first timer..
but i do have an idea to fix the head slug problem.. COARSE THREAD.. coarse thread bolts have a much deeper, stronger thread.. the fine threads in the head are easy to strip, because they're so small.. i came to think of this, because we had similar problems with the micros and fine thread bolts/slugs for the radius rods and shocks.. luckily it happened on my test car and not on a customer's.. we drilled out the old slugs, tossed new 1's in, tapped them for coarse thread 7/16" bolts and whala, fixed.. ford could do the same by re-tapping the heads for a thicker spark plug stud with a coarse thread and the problem would be far less common.. at least by my train of thought, anyway lol
They just didn't use enough threads. The material probably sucks as well. Took them till 04 to fix it. NEVER attempt to remove the plugs from a warm modular engine. As specially the aluminum 4 valve cars. They must be cold. Like over night cold. They never got anti seize from the factory. Should be one of the first things done when purchasing one. None of the modular engines are well suited for truck use. 4.6, 5.4 V10. They all suck in that application. The Raptors 6.2 liter is okay but the Coyote out performs it. Fact of the matter is, Trucks aren't race cars.
that's what i told the owner LOL his wife said he does 90 down the PA turnpike with it every day on the way to work lmao
Probably. But to do that Ford would have to acknowledged there was a problem. Likely there is a TSB on it but I doubt a recall ever happened. But yeah, one would have thought to beef that up a little somewhere along the production time line. Every manufacturer has their issues, defects or design flaws. Many of them exist for assembly line reasons, logistics, bean counters, or the engineer just plain wanted things a certain way. To be honest, those plugs probably weren't intended to have to be serviced for 100,000 miles either.
Ford would not recall that unless they absolutely had to. It would cost them way to much to recall that many vehicles for that much of a repair. Somebody would have to prove it a safety concern.
it is a TSB, but never made it as a recall.. it should have been, but like chrome said, they wouldn't/won't because of the cost.. but changing the thread design could really benefit the problem.. but i guess ford just figures they'll make their money replacing heads on the customer's dime..
The whole blow out problem is because there are only five threads in the heads to secure the plugs, if there had been eight or so there would have never been a problem... Emissions has zip to do with the problem, it's a $hitty design plain and simple but Ford won't admit to it... They blame loose or over torqued plugs as the problem, but many of the trucks have blown out the original plugs...
I posted this same info over on the Crown Vic board this morning as there were some members whining about the same in the Vic 4.6...
who said anything about emissions? i didn't see anything like that stated.. lol but 5 threads? seriously? ford should have seen this coming..
No argument here. Emissions was just mentioned because emissions, fuel mileage, and the desire to make them more car like have contributed to the PITA design of the truck as a whole.
I think he was refering to post #22. Emissions has a great deal to do with design, just can't be blamed for everything.
didn't even see this.. lol but that's exactly what i did, pulled the accessories, fan and shroud and climbed my fatas* in there to finish ripping it apart.. it was almost necessary in order to get to anything around the intake.. i'm 5'9" and this truck made me feel like a little person.. i literally felt like i was working on my old shortbed, which sat on 9" of lift and 39.5 TSL's.. ri-friggin-diculous
I believe it's actually 4 threads/fine. The late 04 heads (DOHC anyway) finally went to a 9 thread.
ok I just saw the smiley face, either you are a genuis or a jerk, depending on who sees that next lol. Personally I give it my seal of approval.
it was the only thing that put a smile on anyone's face at that point.. i hope it cheers the next guy up a little lol
I just went threw the whole plug change nightmare in my 06 5.4 broke 5 of the 8 glad I bought the tool before I started.
It didn't get any better in '04. Yes, there are more threads on the plug, but then ford went with a two-piece spark plug that breaks when you try to remove it. Ford has issued an updated one piece plug but that doesn't do much good to the guy with a broken plug in his engine. Ford actually has a convoluted removal procedure for this style plug that includes soaking with combustion chamber cleaner.
I'm a tech at a used car lot that sells all makes and models, mostly three model years old, and I can tell you all from experience that shiznitty design is not a Ford exclusive. I can look at any car on the road and tell you what issues that particular model is known for. GM, for example, couldn't manufacture a wheel bearing to save their arses. Dodge hemi and 4.7 engines tend to break exhaust manifold bolts (which can be just as exciting to do as ford plugs). I could go on and in but lunch break is over...
the 4.7 is garbage top to bottom.. they're known as 'sludge motors' because sludge tends to build up everywhere and restrict oil flow
My good friend owns an 8 bay mechanical repair shop.
We spend hours BSing about factory stupid , Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Asian, whatever.
On newer fords the joke is step 1 remove neg battery terminal. Step 2 remove engine. :)
When it came time for me to purchase newer (ie 10 years old or less) daily driver for the wife. I talked to him at great length. When it comes to the purchase prices, durability, cheap to fix....you cannot beat a panther IMHO. They just work.
When it comes to trucks....GM all the way. They seem to have less stupid stuff. In his opinion.
Newer is never better in my opinion nowadays. Just way too much stupidity to overcome.
Travis
P.S. Don't even get me going on Modules to control power windows that has to be replaced and then reprogrammed to the BCU....just to open the window....geez.
x2 on both of these.. i refuse to own a ford newer than 96 and at that point, it can/will ONLY ever be an SC or F150.. everything else (including GM, dodge, asian. european, etc) could fall off the face of the earth for all i care, as far as personal ownership goes.. both for the piss poor designing that makes everything difficult and the body styling..
as for the stupid window modules, as soon as the customer tells me the window won't go down, i refer them to the dealership.. could it be the switch? sure, but i'm not going to waste my time and theirs, just to find out it's the module that has taken a dump.. i usually get 'well you can do it a lot cheaper, can't you?'.. then they get mad when i tell them no.. lol
didn't see that part.. my sonoma agrees with that statement! 3 hubs in 2 years with lousy 32x11.50 AT's.. that's why i haven't touched her, i need a D44 i can narrow
Fix't. :hick:
Does the 3.5 V6 come to mind here, lol?
i was being nice to the dodge owners here.. they already suffer enough from owning the ugliest US built trucks on the road.. lol i've never laid a hand on a 3.5, so :dunno:
I own a 3.5 and haven't had any problems with it, nor have I seen any major problems with them and their relative, the 4.0. I know there is a tendency for them to gum up intake valves, but I haven't seen any yet serious enough that a can of combustion chamber cleaner and a Seafoam treatment hasn't cleared up. I think you're thinking about the 2.7, Beau, which is notorious for sludging...
The fact that we are having a conversation about a modern engine that has gumming up issue is ridiculous.
This isnt the mid 70's.
Travis
It will only get worse from here. Engines gum up because of poorly designed PCV systems. Modern direct injection engines will be even worse because they don't even have the benefit of washing the back of the intake valve off with gas. That being said, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that modem engines, even trouble-pr0ne ones like the Chrysler 2.7, run far cleaner and last far longer with far less maintenance than any older engines ever did. 100k used to be about the best you could hope to get out of an engine, nowadays it's just getting broken in at that mileage...
Yes Carm, I meant the 2.7 lol
(Had 3.5 on the brain after reading some article about the EcoBoost 3.5 Ford..dunno why the numbers stuck..)
And I agree about the sludging. I had a Jeep J series truck as my first vehicle....I rebuilt the 360 in auto class in high school, that thing had about an inch of crud caked inside the valve covers....at that point, I'd only been driving it about 5 months..lol
, that was 17 years ago..please excuse me now, it's time for my geritol, can someone hand me my cane.
I would say overdrive transmissions, interstates, and better oils play a huge role in the mileage increase. You take an old 460 and you can beat the far out of it and it is going to just sit there and look at you! Just my opinion though! :D
the F150 repair you mentioned should be done with the cab removed. Next time ask a certified mechanic.
You can pull the heads without removing engine/trans/cab. Be will likeley break several bolts on the exhuast theough.
At my last job, we pulled the heads off a v-10 without oulling the cab, and it was half the work of pulling the cab. Just had to pull front acessories. Not much room though.
Same thing happened on my dad's 2000 Expedition a few months ago -- blew out plug #4.
*cringe* I hope that doesnt happen to our 2001 :(
I dont know why ford didnt put more threads in the heads but Ive always been told to change them with the engine cold.
Good stuff in here for me to remember with the F150's.
The 4.6 is a remarkably smooth running motor that has been proven to make great horsepower to cubic inch ratio through the years. I know they started out with badly designed valve seals so they would burn gobs of oil in the Panther chassis and mn12 until Ford redesigned the valve seals and then the blowing out spark plug issue which who knows why they took them so long to redesign this. They also had a few designs of intake manifold disasters that were finally upgraded.
What I have seen and since owning a 1997 Grand Marquis panther with 150k miles on it, those motors (if properely maintained) run and operate very nicely. Those cars are very shade-tree mechanic friendly. I used to frequent on the Panther forums and the panther "box" "aero" and "whale" all are a well respected masterpiece from Ford. Now if they could have used some of that greatness with the trucks from 1997 on up?
I have owned some cars over the years with some proven "junk" motors from our domestic manufacturers.
255 Ford oiling systems sucked and choked by EPA
301 Pontiac sheared off the crankshaft pulley keyway
2.8 MPFI Chevy numerous sealing problems with intake, rubber plug to block distributor hole
2006 and 2000 Chevy Impala, 2 different designs and still could not figure out the intemediate steering shaft design
But the thing is the manufacturers have always got to be competitive, safe designs, value for the money, stylish, "environmentally friendly" and above all profitable in a crazy economy.
What gets me is that we Americans have invited such import companies as Kia and Hyandia to be so successful in our market along side the already proven import market as Nissan, Honda, Volkswagon, Toyota, Mitsubishi and Mazda which has helped make the domestic market to have to cut so many corners. They have had to discontinue beloved builds and makes and eliminate way too American jobs or send them to Mexico.
If you think about where Hyandai and Kia started with there py econo boxes in the 1980s and 1990's, if American consumers would not have bought that cheap , they would not have created the revenue to build themselves up to where they are today- being one of the biggest names on the roads. I am sure today they are a decently built automobile, but so is everything else in this cut-throat auto industry or they would not be on the showroom floors.
I would have been satisfied seeing a Kia or Hyandai microwave on Wal Marts shelves today and drive by Mercury dealership with a new line of 2013 rear wheel drive Mercury Cougar XR-7's with the new 5.0 that is based on a well optioned Mustang but with Mercury's premo finesse.
Sorry for the rant and rave and getting off topic, just had to throw in my $.02