So I had the master cylender and front brake pads replaced on my '87 T-bird (the rear shoes were still alright), expecting a lot more stopping power when I hit the brakes. To my dismay, the brake pedal still requires more effort and just feathering it (like in all the modern cars I've driven), and while it's firmer feeling than it used to be, I still have to press pretty hard to get it to stop.
Is this just the way it is on old cars like this?
did you bleed the lines? and have you checked the rears?
Lines have been bled as well as new shoes on the back. It's a bit better but still sucks. I've had to push the break pedal down all the way a few times during normal driving for a somewhat hard stop.
When I did my brakes about a month ago, I realized that most everything was original (26 years old). I replace everything, all hardware, shoes, drums, rotors, calipers, brake lines, and pads. Now they are better than I can ever remember in the 7 years that I've owned it. There is a break in period for new brakes, maybe you just need to put a few miles on them. I also noticed that after I put a little more money in for good quality parts, I got my money's worth.
If I were you, I'd pony up for some calipers. At the very least, caliper kits (assuming you have access to a caliper hone). The square cut seal in the calipers tends to either wear, or expand slightly after that many years, additionally you can find the piston to be corroded or loaded up with crud under the dustboot (depending on the condition of said boot). Follow with a good bleed, and even though I'll catch hell for this, I recommend flushing the brake fluid (especially if any of it, any at all, is as old as the car). The reason is that Dot3 absorbs moisture from the air every time you open the cap. This also includes the half bottle of fluid you added that sat in your garage for a year with the seal broken. With moisture comes air(at high temps the water in the fluid boils and separates into it's component gasses), and with air and moisture comes corrosion, thermal expansion, brake fade and a softer pedal. All of these are worse when the brakes are hot. At my shop we flush with Dot4, why? Not completely sure except that it absorbs less moisture and boils at a higher temp (I'm not a chemist or an engineer, though, so don't quote me). Some of the '13 cars are starting to come with DOT5.1 which is fully synthetic.
Liquids are incompressible. With that said if you are having to push the pedal all the way down to get the car to stop something is not functioning correctly. First the MC could be bypassing and yes I know its new but did you bench bleed it before it was installed? Second, are the front calipers in good shape as TheFoeYouKnow stated above? If they are the originals then change them along with the front soft lines. Third, do the rear brakes function as needed? If the rear slave cylinders are the stock units replace them along with a new hardware kits. IF you do the rear slave cylinders then replace the rear soft line between the axle and body. The soft lines will eventually close up on the inside as the old rubber expands. Found this on one of my cars and battle those brakes for days before I figured it out. And last, definitely cycle all of the old brake fluid out of the system as mentioned above.
One other note is the rod inside the booster that actuates the MC has to be correctly adjusted. Typically you do not mess with this if you are putting a stock MC back in the car but I thought I would bring it up to cover all the bases.
Is this expensive or more than most people want to pay? Usually, but compared to stopping in time and not wrecking its cheap.
Darren
If you really want good brakes, what I've noticed is most everything is designed for 5 lug application. That would make it real expensive for me, because I have 4 lug rims. I would love to have disc rear brakes!
Brakes, like most safety systems, aren't cheap initially, but are well worth the investment. I have seen many a nice car sent to the s yard for want of nothing more than a reasonable investment in brakes. It happens because we have become a disposable society who doesn't do the work to maintain vehicles, or anything else for that matter, anymore. About 10 years ago, I rescued a '93 Cobra from just that fate and all she needed was a MC, calipers, new pads and a flush of the lines. I bought her for $600 after the PO had been told that it was going to cost her $1500 for the brake work. It took 2 weekends, about $500 in parts and materials and I found her a new loving home for $6,500 four days after I put her up for sale. My point is that having the knowledge of how to tackle these kinds of tasks not only puts us in the minority in this country, but at a distinct advantage over those that don't know how to do anything more complicated than filling the tank and maybe changing the oil.
Not much advantage stopping power wise going from drum in the rear to disc when it comes to the four lug set ups. Been there done that and wished I had saved my money.
Darren
There is an advantage to be sure, but it isn't as simple as just replacing the brakes in the rear. You have to change the MC and plumb in a proportioning valve to be able to adjust the bias correctly, after many rounds of testing. Otherwise, you actually decrease the effectiveness of the braking system by increasing front-end bias, seen in increased stopping distances.
I would try bleeding them a few more times, sounds like you still have air in the system.
when you stop and at times does the nose of the car dip down?
Foe,
interesting thoughts, is there a way a general wrench like me can fully back presure the lines with air so i can empty out all the old stuff.
I agree with your air / corrosion opinion, physically seen in in about every moving part and as well every brake line on my cars.
I generally end up wasting a lot of brake fluid just to make sure i bleed enough.
About a month ago was the first time I had ever attempted doing the brakes. I cheated.... I bought everything brand new. So, all I did basically was remove and replace. The disc's were fast and easy, the drum's well... I had to put a muzzle on it, I didn't want to neighbors to here me. I really didn't put a whole lot of money in them, about $500.00 at most. Now I have the piece of mind knowing everything is new and functional. I was shocked to find that everything except the shoes, drums, pads, and rotors were original parts.
When corrosion isn't a factor, hard parts last a good long while. Still, flush the fluid. You'll thank me afterward.
That is not cheating at all, when doing a complete overhaul of a 25+ year old critical safety system, that is SMART.
The best way to bleed braking systems is by using a tool like this (http://"http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PSL-2002/?rtype=10"), or similar.
(http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/PSL-2002.jpg)
Just curious i have a pressure bleeder in the shop!!! But what is wrong with gravity bleeding????
Only that time is money. Pressure bleeding only takes a couple minutes to flush the system, and while gravity bleeding is perfectly effective, it takes longer.
^^^ what Foe said ;)
In addition, you can do it alone, recycle the captured brake fluid and can almost eliminate the possibility of air in the lines. When I say recycle the brake fluid, what I mean is capturing the clean brake fluid and using it to keep the MC topped up.
My problem with that is how can you tell when you're only dealing with clean fluid?
If it is brown flush it down. If it is yellow let it mellow!!!!!
This is the only pressure bleeder a person should buy IMO:
http://motiveproducts.3dcartstores.com/Ford-Three-pr0ng-Bleeder-0107_p_117.html
We use them all the time and especially with ABS cars. I had a Phoenix brake bleeder and it was a pain in the ass to use compared to this one. Again, my personal experience.
Darren
I just bled my system for the second time in a month and it's still coming out a dirty brown. I've used a lot of fluid and it's got a new reservoir. I think I'll spend a little more time on them.
Keep bleeding them until the fluid is clear. Start at the left rear then move to the right rear. After those come up clean then go to the right front and then the left front. The reason to do it this way is so that you work from the farthest point to the closest point to ensure you do no commingle the old and new fluids.
Darren