Block- D1AE-6015-A2C
Heads- ~info taken with cover off)D1AE-A1C (the A could be a 4, but i think its an A)
additional head info on side shows a stamp "W ITE"
Intake- D2SE-8425-AA
2bbl carb- D2MF ..... C 2d 20
I am pretty sure its a 351M 400 but not sure even with all my casting info i have in my diy link below. I am more interested in the heads.
valve covers are "powered by ford"
With valve covers off, they reveal your typical stock rockers on a 302, nothing special.
According to THIS (http://"http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/engine2.html"), the block is a 400. Obviously 2 bbl Cleveland heads.
how is it obvious these are clev heads?
this part stumped me because of the missing 3 characters, a D1AE shows up in a couple different areas even in your link.
clev heads would be a nice to have in the parts pile i would think.
Everything you want to know about a 400/351M...
http://grantorinosport.org/BubbaF250/parts/parts02.html
2V Cleveland heads ain't nothing special....
BTW by the casting numbers it would have to be a 400 or 351C as the 351M didn't start production till the '75 models...
How are 351c 2 barrel heads not special, they have 2.05" intake valves and 1.65" exhaust valves, thats bigger than any other small block engine every produce other than the 4 barrel 351c. They flow better than any other small block too. They flow more than the engine can take in stock form thats why they put them on the 400s. They might live up to the bigger is not always better saying but with a cam, intake, and a better carb, they scream.
Well I was referring to the fact they won't fit a Windsor without special machining, manifolds and/or adapter plates... For what it costs to adapt and rebuild them, a new aftermarket Windsor head can be bought... Sorry I didn't make myself clear, was gettin' late...
Now if you want to build a carbed 400 that's a different story, but then I'd look for a 4V Cleveland head...
BTW, Scott that block you have is supposed to have the small block transmission bolt pattern, not 429/460 as most do...
Be wary of just using casting numbers. I have handled my share of Cleveland parts and I know you can have a 2 bolt block and a 4 bolt block have the same casting number. The 400 block with the small block bellhousing pattern is rare. I have owned one in the past. I would verify by more than a casting number. 400 heads up to 75 and 351C 2V heads are the same head. 75 and up heads (351M & 400) are slightly different. A coolant passage was cast above the exhaust port which causes a different port shape.
They also have exhaust passages above the exhaust ports like the 302 and 351W. Thats the easest way to tell the difference between the 351M and 351C heads, the 351Ms have EGR ports the the ends of the heads like the 302.
That is true Bruce M. Some late 351M/400 heads had an "M" cast in the top corners outside the valve cover rail. But this wasn't always the case. It probably had to do with where it was cast as there were two casting plants that cast these parts. Hey jcassity, if you aren't sure what you have post some pictures of the heads and block. I can help you ID them. The block will have a rib that runs adjacent to the dist. bore if it is a 351M/400. A 351C does not have this rib. Hope this helps.
I can post pics,
I was thinking these heads are probably the ones folks c00ch up to upgrade thier 302's cheaply, 2v or not they do flow better more air in/air out volume and thats and fuel is what its all about.
pics in the next day or two.
I agree with you tom that they arent all that special but the valve size is what its all about on a budget. I may be able to get the oil pan off, these motors are sitting on a trailer easy to get to.
Sorry though, 351/400's confuss the hell out of me during these early D years.
NO egr ports on the heads like the 5.0
You can buy a nice set of used aftermarket Windsor heads in aluminum for the price it would cost to put those on a 302...
so the cost possibilities of the iron heads rework parts / labor would exceed that of the Windsor eh? good point.
I was basing this on a broad assumption that the valves "might be good" and all the springs would be shimmed along the lines of .010 and then do refresh lap job on the valve seats and then pay a shop to shave the heads. Granted i would know more once i tested the valve guides.
my younger son will need a car soon and i am pondering parts you sold me a while back along with what i have collected and get the white coug back on the road as a daily driver for him.
I am more interested in if these heads would be a cost effective solution.
Scott you have a PM...
TurboCoupe50 is right. To put Cleveland heads on a 302 you will need specific pistons with the right valve reliefs. You will need an intake that matches the deck height and port shape. B & A used to make such an intake. When they sold out someone else made it for a while but I don't know if they are available anymore. There was a rumor that TMeyer in Minnesota was making them again. Although I have not verified this. You may run across one at a swap meet but they usually sell for $300 or more. The machine work to direct the coolant in to the intake isn't complex but it adds to the cost. Putting them on a 351W isn't so hard. You can use a Cleveland intake with spacers. You will then have to fabricate/plumb a coolant block which would house the thermostat. You will still need specific pistons though. Both engines will need specific push rods. I would just build a Cleveland engine in the first place. It will bolt in where any Windsor will. I am a Cleveland engine fan. I have built and raced a few over the years. Right now I have one in a 93 Mustang. It makes about 450HP. I would like to see a picture of the block you were looking at to see if it is in deed a small block bellhousing pattern 400. I am curious whether the casting number holds out.
Edlebrock makes a manifold for about $300 for either 302 or 351. The special mechine work is drill some 1/8th inch holes into your block, and blocking off a hole or two in the heads with a freeze plug if I remember right. There are a few companies that make the clevor piston to use with a stock rod, but I never got into it enough to really firgure out costs. Do a couple of google's for clevor, and you will find everything you need to know.
But with $300 for a manofold and $200+ for piston, you are half way to aluminum heads.
That's right Haystack. I forgot about Edelbrock making those intakes recently. They are kind of pricy though.
pics shown below for your review
and more pics
and some more ,, i had three pics at a time picture limit
last one to look over
I don't know how to tell which one is which, but I did want to point out that there is a fuel injected intake now made by trickflow, for a 351 clevor. It would be a lot of fun to do a 418 strocker with clevland sized mains. You would get a basically 400 block with clevland mains, clevveland heads and widsoor block and oiling system, with fuel injection.
Too bad they haven't made a lower for the 302 injected. Guess you could do the victor jr lower, it should at least have the bungs cast in, you would just have to drill and tap them yourself. I would be all over a trick flow stock replacement lower for the 302 clevor.
any thoughts on the pics?
If it was me, I'd nab the heads, and sell or s the rest, depending on what I'd have to pay for 'em.
Nothing special about a 351/400m, and most folks I know of that build Fords refer to 'em as boat anchors...
I was about to buy a '77 F-150 in 2004, the seller told me he'd just put a newly rebuilt 400 in it, and it had less than 3500 miles on it since the install/rebuild....
I told him my plan was to replace the M engine with a 460 and put mud tires on it and use it for a mud running truck.
He decided to keep the truck...in fact, I saw it parked at wal mart a coupla weeks ago...he STILL has it lol.
It's a 400 engine and it has the big block bell housing pattern. The heads are basically the same as a 351C 2V if that is what you are interested in.
A 400 can be made to be a very good running piece. I have tinkered with a few in trucks and have even run one in a street stock dirt track car in the eighties. They are not as bad as some make them out to be. The 400 in my 77 F-150 was a very torquey engine after a few mods. The one in my street stock had 4V Cleveland heads and a 4 barrel carb.
I was surprised to see Trick Flow produce a fuel injection intake for their Cleveland heads.
i love the modified motors, they're like the 4.9 I6.. packed full of torque, but on a much larger scale.. they just have super sucky stock bottom ends, but with a little work, you can get them to turn 6k rpms like a smallblock.. i've owned 2 and had my hands in 1 other, all in all, i can't say anything bad about them, except when the *knock knock knock knock* comes to visit :mad:
Every one of 'em that I've seen used has either had timing set failures, oil starvation issues, or both.
I'm not saying they're worthless...but, they don't seem to last very long if gouged on and still in a stock configuration.
stock 351M/400's definitely suck without modification, there's no question about that
From my experience with the 351M/400 the crank journal sizes were always on the big side. The main & rod clearances end up being .001 or less. This left very little room for overheating or sludge issues. I had to have the crank machined for more clearance for the engine I ran in my street stock race car. I needed .002 to .025 for that application. The dreaded nylon on the cam gear was not a very good idea. It usually ended up in the oil pan restricting oil flow through the pick up.
hey fordracer, i see you're in harrisburg.. what track did you run?
I raced at Selinsgrove Speedway and Port Royal Speedway in my street stock in the 80s. I raced at Lincoln speedway in a thunder car 2002 - 2004. I have also helped out on cars at Silver Springs and Port Royal Speedway in the 90s.
aaah, good old silver springs.. i remember when the big flea market was held there.. that track was nice, it's a shame it was bought out to build a stupid housing complex, stripmall or whatever the hell they put/ are putting in there.. i've raced at the little track in selinsgrove, the big track looks like a lot of fun, but i have yet to climb into the seat of a fullsize sprint
Yeah, the race car flea market was always huge. I remember it being pretty big in the late 80s already. They built a big shopping complex where Silver Springs Speedway used to be. I think Alan Krietzer made out pretty good on that deal. Alan owned the speedway. Selinsgrove was always a fast track. It used to have a tight exit off turn 2 which brought you up to the guard rail in a hurry, but they have reconfigured that part of the track a few years ago. That probably made it even faster. I have a friend who's son races a go kart on the small track occasionally.
the gokarts are pretty funny to watch.. lol but the flea market keeps growing every year.. it's now at the harrisburg farm complex or whatever it's called
The kids karts are funny to watch. I have gone along with my friend when they raced at the Penn's Creek track. Sheldon actually beat Jimmy Spencer's nephew that night to win the feature. There is always a lot of go kart stuff at the flea market. The flea market is at the Elmerton Ave. parking lot for the Farm Show complex. Since they added their new building onto the Farm Show complex they had to start using the lot on Elmerton Ave. and shuttle people down to the building. They could use an even bigger lot for the flea market. I think they are turning people away before the sun rises. This year I went on Friday night about 8:00 and left around midnight or so. I bought myself another set of 351C 4V heads.
hahah.. small world, i was there selling new wings, front axles and some other misc micro stuff.. we got there around 4 on friday and had to wait for them to let us in.. the only thing i scored for anything car-wise was a 1050 race demon for $175 and some modified/sprinter afco coilovers for the S10 i'm rebuilding
Small world in deed. That's a good deal on the 1050.
yeah.. i picked it up around 7:30 on friday night, as the guy was unloading his truck.. he said '$200" and i said 'i have 175 in my pocket now' and he took it.. don't have anything to really put it on right now, but it's nice to know i have a carb that's ready to make some real NA power
You can make some good deals at that flea market. I paid $175 for the 351C 4V heads and turned around and sold them for $250 on Craig's list 2 weeks later. I still have 2 sets left.
i'd definitely recommend anyone in this area of the country to take the trip up.. there are tons of good deals to be had around noon-1 on saturday too.. people start dropping prices so they don't have to tote stuff home
Without a doubt it is one flea market to check out. Your right the prices do drop so they don't have to take the stuff back home.