As with many older vehicles you will find that an electrical system begins to act sluggish. If you are driving in bad weather and have the wipers running; the blower and lights on---such as me, the accessories begin to slow down at traffic stops---particularly noticeable with turn signals. I had discussions this week with local parts places and they have given me several ideas: 1) Have the existing alternator rewound to produce higher amp output and 2) Change the Alternator to BAT wire to larger gauge. Problem with 2 is that the T-bird alternator has a wiring harness and one wire change will not work in this case. Has anyone addressed this problem. Oh, I have seen discussions on 3G alternators, but one parts place tested my alternator and battery and said they were within specs...? Seems silly to trash a functional alternator.
Idling too slow?
I'm going to have to second this. Unless something is pulling more current than it is supposed to. With everything running, car idling, take a voltage reading on the battery, let us know what the reading is.
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I would also check the voltage output at the alternator and then directly after all the so called "fuse links".
The splices that are labled as "fuse link" are just that,, they are enviromentally seal splices. Corrosion and connection weakness could contribute to this as well as already said, engine idle.
I tend to disagree a little here though, the wring off our alternators in stock fashion are just a bit too small imho or at the least they should have been flex and not stranded type wire.
You might be best off to chill out on your car for a while and inspect / replace the primary downstream wiring from the main connector and beyond the fuse links as far as possible.
I did a fuse link repair for someone here on the board and disected the splices and they look pretty good as far as factory assembly and precess goes, where they go bad is that they are certainly ****not*** able to withstand repeated bending, twisting, kinking or handling and such. the fuse links are just simple solid copper conductors that can easily be weakend by dressing in or bending of the harness itself.
you just gotta take the time to inspect it all,
Thanks for the comments. A local parts place checked the output and the battery-- and told me (as well as showed me) that the alternator and battery were up to specs. The voltage was 14.4 volts. As JCassidy comments--it's probably in the wiring or such. I actually have not put any time into checking it all. Probably will. It does not seem sensible to spend money on something that may not improve the situation. The car doesn't stall and the ALT light does not light, so I guess this is not a big deal. Just annoying.
not to side track the issue but if you can, swap in a larger Amper Hour battery or borrow one that is larger in capacity.
Doing this one small thing may be what you need to do. Heck, you may not have a large enough AH battery now.
Some get fooled into cold cranking amps and thinking thats what your paying for when its really , CCA coupled with AH.
Having a larger bucket of power stored in the battery increases the time frame the battery can deliver the highest potential over the distance required with less concern for voltage drop.
just my 2c,, try a different battery and see what happens.
The
not to get too technical here but i guess we could reverse engineer ford thinking.,,
11.1 x total wire distance in feet x amps / .25vd
Ford logically is allowed to de-rate the ampacity of the alternator at 80% of 65A to approx 52A
They likely (as most industry standards allow) allowed for a 1/4V allowable drop from the alt to the battery.
so
11.1 constant for dc power copper x approx 6 total feet of wire from the alt to chassis x 52A / .25volts allowable drop= 13252 circular millimeters of copper required.
The range to qualify as a #8 is 10381 to 16510KCMIL
This wire installed in our cars is considered "in raceway"
This wire in our cars "might" be 90deg C or better rated wire, however it is not flex, it is stranded.
The electrons travel along the outer skin of each copper conductor within an insulated jacket.
SOL-solid wire has one solid conductor
Str-stranded wire has a few fairly stiff solid conductors
FX-flex has 10's of hundreds of tiny hair like conductors
Flex is going to be best because the electrons typically travel along the outer skin of a conductor to the load. The more conductors, the more surface area and current carrying capacity it has.
#8 does not qualify as 70A unless its installed in a free air situation.
The alt wiring in our cars are stranded from the alternator but suddenly at the fuse links , it is further reduced then stepped back up again for protection. The crimps are a typical corrosion or mechanical weakness, so yeah, checking the voltage difference is always the right thing to do.
I disagree with you on battery AH though, the battery will deliver the power over a period of time when the alternator can not.
I agree with on the other hand though that eventually the battery will equalize with the alternator at some point "if" the constant demand exceeds the additional AH power stored.
Back on topic though,,,,,,,
Check the headlamp switch, and swap it out with another known good unit.
there are several resistive parts in there to include a main connector that has a couple wires that get pretty hot.
Thats why there is a heat sync on the side. Perhaps you may find your answer right there as well.
Use tom's example and note your voltage output at the alternator ,
then with your headlamps on bright, measure the voltage at your headlamp wiring.
Use a stick pin to inject into the wire if you have to so you can have lights on as well as take a voltage reading.
Im betting you'll see a number that might be unacceptable,,, we all do actually. I have .9 difference at my headlamps.
The only fix is to rewire the car or certain circuits...kinda like what thunderchicken did with a remote fuse/relay box thus eliminating the headlamp switch problems.
TC, correct me if i am wrong if your reading this. I totally disagree with the headlamp switch design, but it does work.
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Skin effect. I remember that from my Air Force days 60 years ago. The higher the frequency, the thinner the skin. Some radar equipment used hollow silver plated "wave guides" to carry the high frequency radar signal.
I do
....holy.......I...don't...underst-:shoothead
Ok, I said it nice one way,, gotta be an ass i suppose.
OK internet observers,, 8awg will never ever be acceptable on a 70A circuit in any situation other than free air,, and especially in a dc application.
The NEC still doesnt cover much about dc power up until the 2011 version, then it struck them that they to were not so smart,,, and had to ask themselves one day,, "what the hell is this Bellcore and Telcordia standards stuff all about".
There is a sudden attempt for them to try and include new terms like "cable rack" and such with unrealistic "free" conditions when in effect they cant seem to get it completely right yet.
sorry, you can know it all and this time your way wrong on your max ampacity for "in conduit or raceway" rating of an 8awg wire....just way too small Tom.
6awg or better is what it should be today, back in 87 it was probably an uncontrolled or "lack of any standard" situation where car makers designed the electrical without any oversight. I do this stuff every day, design AC , -48v DC power systems , Gensets, rectifier plants, inverters, ups systems, battery strings wind, solar, FM200, building, hvac , isolated ground rings, ect. I design it all and there are so many things i have to have memorized just to survive.
DC does have skin effect just like AC does...and a larger battery will produce power for a period of time compensating for a low recharge source over a period of time ~~~~~~~~after the coup de fouet effect. its clearly an attribute of storage as you stated but if your storage is low, then your obviously not making it above alternator float after the coup de fouet. The only way to really know is to not have an alternator online when testing this.
All i was just trying to say is that i agreed with you about the voltage drop thing but to also see if his battery was also large enough or the right size.
If you like that formula, save it cause you wont see it again. There arent many people out there who know how to even begin to size a dc conductor properly,, not even the NEC, but yet you must at a minimum comply with the NEC for #8 and 70A does not fit.
I could go on how in one example 70A requires barely a #6 while the same circuit with sixtyfive loop feet of wire will require #2 but thats a different story.
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wow! seriously!, thats the thickest #10 I have ever seen.
with that being approx 3/4'' wire loom, it its amazing its insulation makes it appear to be along the lines of a #4 or #6 at best.
Based on your thoughts on the max amps typically expected out of the alternator, I totally agree as we don't typically expect to see 100% loads. Thats what i suspected earlier when i was trying figure out what ford was thinking with the #8. This coupled with time and corrosion likely does have a negative effect on our cars main headlamp switch.
If DC power requires much less copper than AC, then the entire world would have stayed on the path of DC power plants today as was the case in Chicago during the battle of the AC vs DC war. ,, copper is expensive. If we had stayed DC your service drop to your house would be along the lines of 4/0 or 250KCMIL single phase excluding voltage drop.
AC example
A 100A source breaker engineered for 80% as allowed by the NEC at a reasonable 150' one way distance would require #4awg if installed in conduit at 75decC.
DC example
in dc the total loop footage must be determined and integrated into the engineered circuit.
A 100A source breaker engineered for 80% as allowed by the NEC at a reasonable 150' distance (300' loop) would require 2) 500mcm per polarity or 4 conductors total.
11.1 K factor constant for copper in DC power x 300' loop x 80A / .25v drop = 1,065,600cmil of copper which converts to 2) 500mcm cables per polarity which can be "considered" close enough.
The same 100A circuit in dc power but at 65loop feet would only require 1) 250mcm per polarity but a 4/0 could be "swagged".
The same 100A circuit in dc power but at 100' loop feet would only require approx 1) 350mcm per polarity.
**as a note: when 25' one way is the distance, this is the point at which distance no longer has a huge effect on DC circuits and the wire size for both AC and DC become aligned almost perfectly,, as in all you have to do is refer to the NEC table 310.16 and just select your desired amperage and the wire size is given to you.
In all cases ~ normally~ the distance effects on AC is "not normally" a consideration except in unique situations or very excessive length designs. IF an AC circuit were 300', id be pocking at the math to bring the voltage drop into the consideration list or at best just jump up one size.
You said it yourself in post 11 but reversed your engineering in post 16 which i think you may have just fat fingered a key or two.
At the end of the day, DC power is more reliable and has much much less external environmental influences than AC. In the end, the expense of the precious mineral copper is what sold the world on AC power grids of today, otherwise copper prices would likely exceed or meet gold ,
or.......
Aluminum would be the standard or some galvanic version of it.
Hell, in Iraq, those folks use brass coated steel conductors on their half assed power systems,, 220v on thier hot leg for single phase services.
On a positive note, literally, if cars went back to a -power source, no one today would have to deal with corrosion all that much,,lol.
J the
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If you to see a live solar system on line right now, click on this link from my fat spanial, this is one of my first systems we did for pen 15s.
http://view2.fatspaniel.net/PV2Web/merge?&view=PV/standard/Simple&eid=220809
ummm,, 4 stages above 14awg is #8. Nec does not honer the odd numbered wires except 1/0 and 3/0.
now ask the solar guys how much current carrying capacity does 8awg have if it is conduit : )
The solar industry is really wrecking the electrical industry with Chinese math to electrically explain off their installations to keep costs down.
Besides, solar guys are really all that concerned with distance and voltage drop because they dont deal with it.
They combine series parallel chunks of solar panels with the electrical objective to meet the mid range input voltage of an inverter system, as in 190vDC to 280vDC for a single phase system.
the lower the voltage, the more concern you have with drop. I keep agreeing with you on everything you say except my observation that I think ford derated too far with the 8awg.
you have to wonder why over the past 6 or so years new alternators for these cars are coming with a replacement connector kit,, they are burning up for a reason, adn the headlamp switch assembly plastic connector isnt getting all brown looking due to heat for nothing.
The car is plainly saying it needs bigger wire in just about every situation i can think of.
I was just trying to have a conversation about the problem, not to derate you because im not going to do that.
What i do say though is that if you do wire 8awg to a 70a circuit , in all cases per the NEC, it must not be housed inside of a raceway or jacket and it can not be anything but "free air".
Compare / google
NEC Table 310.16 and table 310.17
the type of wire used with respect to stranded vs flex is a consideration as well as jacket insulation.
its my observation that the OEM stranded wire is obviously rated for less ampacity than the 8awg flex but you have to dig hard to get that data.
Cop-Flex by cobra wire has charts which are the best reference for this info.,, the NEC has yet to catch up with this yet even though cobra wire has been around for ever.
I take it your not the type of person to be in possession of bad information and you would make darn sure you spoke correctly about something,, thats what i was sharing but we can agree to disagree on the idea of how much current 8awg can carry "based on its engineered design".
again, if its installed inside a jacket or pipe or some form of conduit then it is subject to table 310.16
within that table, you must look on the wire and find its "rated" and "designed" temperature range.
If its not listed then you have to ,, and must! observe the lesser ampacity.
Again, i already pointed out that ford "could have" derated the wire as to cover only about 40 to 45 amps and they would be compliant to the NEC in this fashion.
The honest discussion was when you said you can use 8awg up to the amperage you pointed out,, there is no instance that is possible or logical unless the wire is hanging in free air.
dont listen to those stupid solar guys,, Alpha Technologies is about the only Tier 1 supplier who engineers solar system correctly, and why?
well, lucky for all of us this industry has not really taken off real huge yet but if it would, there would be ***Much MORE*** roof top fires than we have already had.
You see, the solar guys are still learnin' and they refuse to understand DC Power like the DC power experts keep trying to educate the the correct applications. It all comes down to cost.
Just a couple day ago, so many roof top fires cause a stupid webinar to happen, and yet the end results are going to come down to simple things like getting their head around ohms law and remembering that kw is kw no matter how you dice it and working with batteries,,, (ie- panels are batteries) that they are subject to low and high current situations, more so in the solar industry as that sun moves, the voltage goes down but the current "demand" in the panel goes up until we reach SCCR.
Time marches on and they will soon come face to face with what is meant by ~amps interrupt current and the differences between it and sccr.
here is the link to their final conclusions of "what they could learn",, its nice to see they decide to do their engineering by using customers as test beds.
http://www.webvent.tv/webinar/140
Ill bet you dont see this happening on my recent project for solar shade shelters
http://www.alpha.com/pen 15s-communications-powering-up-ceremony/
I was solely responsible for the success they have at pen 15s for the Deer Valley project in AZ.
The whole alpha team put together a highly engineered product that is correct but likely will not be cost effective to continue if not for hand outs from the gov't,, as still is the case for the state of NJ.
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/print-edition/2011/08/12/pen 15s-conserves-energy-consumption.html
back to cars,,, and likely backing off hijacking this thread,,lol.
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