Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: dw85745 on November 13, 2011, 03:23:58 PM

Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: dw85745 on November 13, 2011, 03:23:58 PM
Well I just had the Cougar towed from a shopping center yesterday.
Would try to start, but no go.
Went out this AM, and started perfectly.

Was wondering if because of age I've got a lot of junk in my tank and by
towing it, it moved the sludge away from the tank filter and solved the problem.

Questions:

1)  Any way to determine if I have a lot of junk in the tank other than pulling it
    (Ah for the days where the gas line had a glass bowl which would show
      any junk before it reached the carb)?
2)  Anyone know where I can get a new tank -- ruled out trying to clean old,
    and paint inside, based on a friends issue with his tank?

Thanks
David
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2011, 08:13:09 PM
David
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: Haystack on November 14, 2011, 12:36:13 AM
Pull codes and jumper the sti connecter and do a wiggle test.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: dw85745 on November 14, 2011, 09:45:32 AM
Mr. Renzo:

Quote
Note i disconnect the switch with a pair of cutters some shrink tubing and a soldering iron. They are more trouble than they are worth.
Interesting.  Never gave the inertia any consideration as just pulled into parking spot.  About 1/2 hour later no-start.    Definite consideration if happens again.

Haystack:
Did the wiggle test while in lot.  Didn't pull the codes in lot as didn't have a VOM handy-- nor since restarted -- but will pull them now for a quick look see.  Most everything new under hood, and I watch it pretty closely.
First thoughts were the distributor stator or TFI had gone out.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: dw85745 on November 25, 2011, 09:21:01 PM
Removed Inertia Switch from vehicle.  Still No-Start Condition.  After several tries final got it started.
Codes are: 

On Demand (11) -- OK
Continuous -- 48, 32, 13, 77

Following book troubleshooting using codes not much help IMHO. 

Question:  The oxygen sensors on this vehicle have never been replaced nor tested.
The passenger side O2 appears to be a %$#@& to get at. 
Is trying to get to the pins at the ECM a better way to test -- or -- got an easier solution?
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 25, 2011, 09:51:50 PM
Ok
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: dw85745 on November 26, 2011, 01:24:08 PM
Tom:  Thanks for your input.

Where did you get the description for the posted codes?

 I have the original shop for the 84, 3.8 and Quick Test points me to HC (p25-125) which addresses EGO at HC20 for 3.8.  I don't have a breakout box.

I do see where vacuum is listed after EGO at HC.  Since I pulled codes with air cleaner off and hoses NOT plugged figured I'd start with EGO since HC listed it first.

FWIW I did notice that the upper rad hose was VERY HOT (couldn't hardly touch)  and not pressurized (soft) after running for about 2 minutes which per HC21 does throw me back to Quick Test Step 5 for retest.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: softtouch on November 27, 2011, 03:03:12 PM
Code 13: Not reaching low idle fast enough.
I had this problem on my 84 3.8.
The throttle return spring did not have enough oomph. The square pad on the throttle linkage didn't push on the ISC motor plunger hard enough to operate the idle tracking switch.
I drilled a small hole in the square pad and added an extra spring. May be shade tree, but it solved my problem. I put the spring inside a chunk of shrink tube to keep it from snagging an adjacent spring.
Also check for proper clearence between the ISC plunger and the square pad with the plunger retracted.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: dw85745 on November 27, 2011, 09:25:20 PM
Softtouch:

Thanks for the suggestion. 
Great Pics!  Following your pics will make an easy install.  Haven't yet checked ISC, but last time I replaced it I set it at "7/32"
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: jcassity on November 28, 2011, 12:44:56 PM
refer to my diy link and check you ECT sensor~ once upon a time i had fuel but no spark and after the codes made no sense i went ahead and invested in FoMoCo stator and TFI, and to my amazement still not spark.  Moved on to wiring check and the like and stumbled across a statement in the shop manual which got me curious and , a new ECT cured the issue.  It is my belief that the ECT can act as an over heating fail safe  ,, ie- since you said your car seemed hot at the upper hose.

You dont need a meter to pull codes, just a paper clip, i include a small 12v buzzer to produce audible beeps so i can wite the codes as i hear them.

Inertia switches typically are not intermittant so bypassing isnt worth it, if it has continuity or power in / out then move on.

If you go out again and there is no start, push in the fuel pump test point needle and see if fuel sprays everywhere (have a towel), that rules out fuel delivery.
Check for spark at the driver side after the fuel has evaporated away since the driver side is easier to get to.

vac delivery is a bitch on these CFI's, so one day you aught to remove the base plate and clean up near the gold fitting on the rear driver side ,, it clogs up and never gets any attention.  you have to remove the whole cfi and flip it over and you will see what I mean.

so, all it comes down to is do you have fuel and spark.

if no fuel, use something to bet on the tank with the key in the on positioin.  This is a problem with one person if you want to make the fuel pump run but the timer circuit in the eec has timed out the complementary 3sec with KOEO.
Solution, jumper the tan and light green wire in your eec self test connetor directly to frame ground with the Key OFF!!!
now turn on your key and the fuel pump will run continuous, if it does not on a few different tries then your pump is intermittant.,,replace it.
If it runs each and every test and delivery up at the shrader valve sprays like a bat out of hell, you probably have spark issues.

Spark needs to be blue / white,, nothing else, if its any shade of orange, then your probably right and the stator is being nice and is giving you warning,,either that or the tfi.  Be thankful, no one else gets a stator warning sign, it just goes bad.

Incase you did not know, your fuel presure regulator atop your CFI is adjustable (66% chance that is).  there are or were three makers of this, (ford, vendor A and vendor B).  If you pop the freeze plug out the top for an OEM model or the plastic button for after market, you will see an allen head screw, one turn cw is about 3psi increase but this isnt linear so dont fool with it too much. 

If you do know the fuel pump is running, listen to see if you hear fuel returning back to the tank.


I liked my old CFI for one reason , because anytime I needed fuel for a lawn mower or whatever, i could just jumper the test connector, remove the pass side feed line to the CFI and drop it in my fuel can, turn on the key and fill up for cutting grass.


Next check for
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 28, 2011, 06:52:44 PM
I like
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: dw85745 on November 29, 2011, 12:14:29 PM
Softtouch:

Do like your spring idea.
 "Softtouch"  do you recall where you got your spring?

Vehicle always had a problem coming off fast idle.    Played with it a bit by putting pressure on DC motor plugger.  Seemed to to improve idle. 

==============
JCassity:

Quote
You dont need a meter to pull codes, just a paper clip, i include a small 12v buzzer to produce audible beeps so i can wite the codes as i hear them.

I use a 12v test light but buzzer would make it easier.

Quote
If you go out again and there is no start, push in the fuel pump test point needle and see if fuel sprays everywhere (have a towel), that rules out fuel delivery.
Check for spark at the driver side after the fuel has evaporated away since the driver side is easier to get to

First thing I always do is air, fuel, spark.
Air -- Remove top of air cleaner make sure plenty of air.
Fuel-- Have helper crank engine, and see if injectors are putting fuel on top of the CFI throttle plates.
Spark -  Pull and easy plug wire.  Put in a test spark plug that goes to ground
  and have helper crank engine to see if getting any spark.

In this case all three worked fine.  Tried yesterday AM and started fine.

Quote
check you ECT sensor

Will do thanks for the tip.

Quote
you aught to remove the base plate and clean up

Done not too long ago.

Quote
Incase you did not know, your fuel presure regulator atop your CFI is adjustable

Didn't know that thanks for the tip.

Quote
Spark needs to be blue / white,, nothing else, if its any shade of orange, then your probably right and the stator is being nice and is giving you warning,,either that or the tfi. Be thankful, no one else gets a stator warning sign, it just goes bad.

Interesting on color.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: softtouch on November 29, 2011, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: dw85745;374097
Softtouch:

Do like your spring idea.
 "Softtouch"  do you recall where you got your spring?

Vehicle always had a problem coming off fast idle.    Played with it a bit by putting pressure on DC motor plugger.  Seemed to to improve idle.

That has been quite awhile ago. I am pretty sure I got it at a hardware store.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: softtouch on November 29, 2011, 04:29:35 PM
They had some software problems with the 84-85 EEC's and the fix was to install an 86 EEC.
I never got around to doing on mine, but it may be something to think about.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: dw85745 on November 30, 2011, 08:57:18 PM
Softtouch:

Made note of 1986 EEC.  Thanks
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: jcassity on December 02, 2011, 03:53:44 AM
you have spark and fuel and no start,, that is difficult to deal with.
the car should start, unless your dumping too much fuel

Idea 2
mark dizzy base and then........
loosen dizzy hold down bolt
turn key forward only
rotate distributor cw and ccw
Do the injectors shoot fuel out when you rotate dizzy either way?
Do you hear them click and then see them shoot out a burst of fuel

You should see this happen if you do this test, if not, get a pressure tester up at the shrader valve and look for 40psi of Fuel pres.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: jcassity on December 02, 2011, 03:55:59 AM
opps
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: jcassity on December 02, 2011, 03:58:25 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;374038
I liked my old CFI for one reason , because anytime I needed fuel for a lawn mower or whatever, i could just jumper the test connector, remove the pass side feed line to the CFI and drop it in my fuel can, turn on the key and fill up for cutting grass.

I normally throw a gas can in the trunk of my car and go to the GAS STATION !!!!!

LOL, yeah but it was just so easy and it saved time
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: TOM Renzo on December 02, 2011, 05:30:59 AM
Soft t
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: softtouch on December 02, 2011, 06:54:31 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;374429
Soft touch not a good idea to have the spring inside that sleeve. BMW did that years ago and had a very bad situation. Heat hardened the sleeve and the spring actually got stuck on many cars. It caused a high engine speed and some people had cars that ran away on them. I also used a buffer spring on the stop arm to bring down the idle as designed. But dont install it in a tube. Thanks

Yeah, I can see where that could be a problem. Maybe DW85745 can come up with a better way to keep it from getting tangled with the spring that is next to it.
Title: 84 Cougar 3.8 Fuel Tank Bad??
Post by: dw85745 on December 16, 2011, 09:14:38 AM
After last post, went out and car started fine.  Waited a couple days, went back out and no start.
Turned cold here -- for me -- so letting vehicle sit until get a warm day.

Has anyone every come across a VOM lead sensor similar to a wrap around AMP meter so you don't need to pierce or strip a wire for testing.  I have an extra lead for my VOM which is like a pin which can pierce the wire covering, but would prefer something not intrusive??

Update (12/18/2011)
Had a nice 65 degree day yesterday.  Went out, turn key and car started right away in same location and without car having been moved.
So this is going to be a tough one folks.

Re VOM Lead:  Found several that are clamp on and will test DC voltage without piercing wire.  However -- BIG bucks -- and more than my budget allows considering expected meter usage over the rest of my life expectancy.  If I were 40 or under, I'd go for it.