Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: Shadow on November 09, 2011, 07:19:40 PM
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 09, 2011, 07:19:40 PM
alright, since i'm getting this new TC with the motor/trans, i have some questions. i don't know what's done to it, if anything, besides the boost controller that's ziptied to the passenger side fenderwell.
the guy said it pushes 23psi according to the gauge, it that safe for a stock motor? seems like i bit much to me, but i'm new to these so i have no clue.
what's the best size to run for the downpipe? while looking under the car, i saw the exhaust is pretty rusty and it has a couple holes in the tailpipe.. so i'm considering replacing it all, including the downpipe, cat and ler
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 09, 2011, 08:05:32 PM
If you're trusting the factory gauge, don't. Get an aftermarket one and see what it says. If the turbo is still the factory IHI, 23psi is suicide/almost impossible. All it's doing at that point is putting out hot air and getting ready to self destruct. If it's been swapped for a T3, 23psi is at the end of it's effeciency range. 20-21 psi would much better for T3 turbo life. As for exhaust, go 3 inch or go home.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 09, 2011, 08:31:50 PM
Quote from: jangus;372432
If you're trusting the factory gauge, don't. Get an aftermarket one and see what it says.
has an autometer gauge in place of the digital clock.. i don't know a single thing about the motor, neither does he. i basically have to pull it apart and see what's what (not that i'd really know what i'm looking at under the valve cover lol)
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 09, 2011, 09:54:58 PM
The
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 09, 2011, 10:56:40 PM
thinking of putting a T3 on it.. there's 1 in the junkyard i've been eying up everytime i go.. never really had the time to try and rip it out.. or a reason to, until now lol i don't really want to hit max boost before things break, but i'd be satisfied with 20-22 with a FMIC, a little porting and ranger cam.. might pull the head off and clean it up, check it for cracks or wasted valve seats just to be safe
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: T-BirdX3 on November 09, 2011, 11:19:47 PM
I didn't notice what year your TC is, but if it is "87/88 here is article for installing a T3. If it is "86 or earlier it already has a T3. http://www.turbotbird.com/techinfo/Installing_T3_on_87-88TC/Installing_T3_on_87-88.htm
Hope this helps.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 09, 2011, 11:24:19 PM
she's an 87.. lol thanks for the links
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2011, 05:18:16 AM
Sha
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2011, 05:22:05 AM
Shad
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 10, 2011, 05:47:43 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;372457
Shadow if you want HP better not consider the RR cam. If you are going through the trouble of pulling the head and checking the exhaust valve seats for cracks.(they most likely will be). You are wasting your time and money on a cam that could not pull a fat girl off a bike. I would suggest a cam with more GUTS. The RR cam is actually smaller than the stock slider. Good luck on your build.
really? thought the ranger cam was a 'hot upgrade.' this is why i love forums, i would have been pissed if i found out the hard way.. lol.. what's the going rate for having valve seats done?
Quote from: TOM Renzo;372458
Shadow here is a cam that i use frequently that will wake up that motor like GANG BUSTERS. It has a strong mid range and buzzes right up to 7K. I see you are in NJ so i dont know about a tail pipe test their. This cam is clean but not capable of passing SMOG. Good Luck.
unfortunately, i have to keep it sniffer legal, since we have inspection in this state, as well as delaware.. so either way she needs to play kindly with emissions laws >:l
thanks for the info :burnout:
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 10, 2011, 07:12:01 AM
My machinist charges $12 a seat for install, I provide the seats. If you want to run a cam with over .450-.470 lift, you'll need to have the top of the guides cut down for proper clearance.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 10, 2011, 07:53:53 AM
thanks, i'll keep that in mind.. i doubt i'll go really big, maybe a bump or 2 over stock.. valve seats are pretty cheap.. at roughly $12 a pop, i should be able to sneak away with buying them and having them installed for just under $100, plus the cost of gaskets/new bolts to put her back together.. sounds pretty good to me!
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 10, 2011, 11:12:00 AM
Uhmm, you've left out the cost of the valve job that'll be needed after the seats are installed. In addition, factory springs are marginal at best, totally inadequate with a better cam, better figure in the cost of those, along with new guide seals. All of this assumes the actual head itself isn't cracked. If it is, which it probably will be, the cracks may be taken care of with the new seats if the cracks are small enough. If the cracks are large, and unable to be taken care of with new seats, you'll need to find another head. As far as costs go: Seats: $20-$30 Install: About $50 Valve job: $100-$150 Springs: $50 on up (You can pay more if you want, but the ones I run for a mild hydrualic cam run $50 Valve seals: $25 for good quality Viton seals Cam: Choice is yours, but I wouldn't run anything but a roller. They can be purchased from various sources: Schnieder, Engle, Bo-port, etc. Expect to spend upwards of $400 for a cam and proper roller followers. Everyone dogs on the Ranger Roller, but for a person on a tight budget who wants a roller cam, or someone who's slider cam is wiped out, it's not a terrible choice. It has good manners, a strong bottom and mid range, and it's a roller. It's just a little weak on the top end, runs out of steam around 5500.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2011, 05:36:37 PM
Shadow
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: fordguy545 on November 10, 2011, 06:24:45 PM
I would probably recomend one of boports cams. The 1.5 I have in my autox car will pull easily over 7000(seen 7500 more than once) and thats on an unported head. I have a 1.9 in my burgundy car and it would probably be great if it had a slightly smaller turbo. The 1.9 is actually alot bigger cam than I thought it was going to be. It idles at 9in vac. The 1.5 is 16in vac.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: flylear45 on November 10, 2011, 07:10:33 PM
Lots of good advice here, Shadow. I totally agree with putting in some healthy springs. Not crazy stiff, just fresh and adequate to the cam you choose.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 10, 2011, 09:24:53 PM
Quote from: jangus;372473
Uhmm, you've left out the cost of the valve job that'll be needed after the seats are installed. In addition, factory springs are marginal at best, totally inadequate with a better cam, better figure in the cost of those, along with new guide seals. All of this assumes the actual head itself isn't cracked. If it is, which it probably will be, the cracks may be taken care of with the new seats if the cracks are small enough. If the cracks are large, and unable to be taken care of with new seats, you'll need to find another head. As far as costs go: Seats: $20-$30 Install: About $50 Valve job: $100-$150 Springs: $50 on up (You can pay more if you want, but the ones I run for a mild hydrualic cam run $50 Valve seals: $25 for good quality Viton seals Cam: Choice is yours, but I wouldn't run anything but a roller. They can be purchased from various sources: Schnieder, Engle, Bo-port, etc. Expect to spend upwards of $400 for a cam and proper roller followers. Everyone dogs on the Ranger Roller, but for a person on a tight budget who wants a roller cam, or someone who's slider cam is wiped out, it's not a terrible choice. It has good manners, a strong bottom and mid range, and it's a roller. It's just a little weak on the top end, runs out of steam around 5500.
i don't pay for valve jobs, so that cost is exempt for me (old family racing connection).. i don't think he's capable of replacing the guides though, not sure.. i will have to call and find out..
what should a 2.3T pump for compression #'s? thinking i may just run a compression test before i do anything
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 10, 2011, 09:28:02 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;372489
By the way what type of tail pipe test does NJ do on older non OBD2 Cars??? I am guessing ASM 25/25
don't know.. i'm not very big on inspection, if you know what i mean.. i don't know anything at all about the tests except whether i pass or not.. lol
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 10, 2011, 09:30:36 PM
Quote from: flylear45;372496
Lots of good advice here, Shadow. I totally agree with putting in some healthy springs. Not crazy stiff, just fresh and adequate to the cam you choose.
thanks.. that seems to be a given on any ford motor.. 5.0/5.8 springs are barely strong enough for a stock cam, not surprised that the 2.3 springs are the same way
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: fordguy545 on November 10, 2011, 09:43:33 PM
Compression should be 140+. Don't remember if stock ones are higher or not, but mine usually ended up 145-150psi
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 10, 2011, 09:50:28 PM
that's really the problem.. it's unknown if it's stock or not.. for all i know, it could be fully worked and pushing 400rwhp.. not likely, but who knows.. we'll find out when she's in the driveway and i start poking at things
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2011, 09:53:11 PM
Stock
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 10, 2011, 10:07:20 PM
when i bring it home.. i'm going to pop the valve cover off and inspect the cam to see if it's stock or aftermarket.. from there, i'm going to run a compression test to see what that yields.. hopefully the compression is relatively equal across the board.. if so, i'll put the plugs back in and inspect the compressor housing.. if it's the IHI, i'll drop the boost to 18 where it really should be.. if it's a T3 or anything else, i'll adjust accordingly.. if it IS the stock IHI, i'll be replacing it soon anyway. the guy said the car pulls harder than his 347 notch, so something tells me the IHI has already been ditched
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 11, 2011, 01:51:41 PM
anyone ever use a marshall reman head? are they a good reman or a sloppy thrown together pile of ? they're only $480 plus core charge from rock auto
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 11, 2011, 02:21:44 PM
Their website is acting kind of py right now, but these guys have affordable heads: http://www.cylinder-heads.com The other choice is to get a good core and do it yourself.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 11, 2011, 02:38:18 PM
don't see any 2.3T heads.. i have no problem paying $480 for a head, if it's a quality reman and mine is thrashed
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 11, 2011, 03:15:36 PM
Oops, wrong site. http://www.cylinderhead.com They do carry turbo heads. Several people from the NATO board have used their heads.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 11, 2011, 03:37:27 PM
lol.. that explains it.. i'll call for a price if needed
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 11, 2011, 05:47:41 PM
No matter what online type place you use, it's my opinion you won't get as good a product as you would by working and establishing a relationship with a local machine shop. Do your research, and go to a few and check them out. Ask if they're familiar with a 2.3 Lima (many won't be). Check for cleanliness, and ask around the local car enthusiast community for reccommendations.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 11, 2011, 06:03:57 PM
i have a working-relationship with a machine shop in delaware already. they CNC a lot of the parts i use/sell for my micro business. on the auto side of things, i have 2 machine shops i used to send stuff to, here in jersey. i have yet to send anything auto related to the guys in delaware, but i know they pump out quite a bit for the local racers/mechanics
on a side note for anyone in jersey (or around jersey).. DO NOT go to tony figga (figga's auto machine), instead of milling heads, he puts them on a large belt sander to 'level' the surface.. he cuts too many corners to line his pockets
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 12, 2011, 12:22:52 AM
anyone make an aftermarket throttle body for these motors.. or is the stock TB sufficient for making (relatively) big power?
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: RDOG on November 12, 2011, 01:24:46 AM
Stock Tb is fine for up to 350 horsepower, but for better response I went to a 65mm 95 mustang TB. Forced 4 sells a TB adapter kit for the 95 TB. You can get a 95 Stang TB at the jy for about $45. I got mine on half off day for $22, and the added plus is the IAC from your stock unit bolts right up, AND another added plus is the TPS on a 95 stang is nonadjustable, so you wont ever have to set it. You will need to cut and solder your old TB female connector to the 95 TB harness, but its easy.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 12, 2011, 01:49:25 AM
YIKES.. $210 for an adapter? holy lol i may be able to get the machine shop to CNC me 1 for less than that, if i can find a better pic and drop off an intake and 94-95 TB
350hp is roughly my current goal with simple mods.. so my stock 1 will do for a while. thanks for the info
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 12, 2011, 04:53:00 PM
If you're handy, and it sounds like you are, you can just fab up a bracket to move the throttle cable/cruise cable to the correct location for the 'Stang throttle body. It would require the use of a longer intercooler/throttle body coupler
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 12, 2011, 05:26:18 PM
well 1 of the first things i'm doing is ditching the top mount and moving onto a front mount. i may not know much about these TC's yet, but i do know a fair amount about turbos and the fact that a front mount will be a pretty substantial upgrade for cooling the cold side before it reaches the throttle body.. so that would fix any 'fitment' issues with the TB and intercooler..
so that's the only difference between the 94-95 mustang body and the TC body? that's highway robbery for that adapter, than.. i can probably make a new cable bracket for under $20 if i don't already have the right materials laying around.. i guess it all just falls into the 'supply and demand' way of things
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: fordguy545 on November 12, 2011, 06:27:07 PM
On my burgundy bird, I'm making 400whp through the factory throttle body. I don't see it as being that much of a restriction. You can also upgrade to a supercoupe throttle body too
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 12, 2011, 06:48:29 PM
REAAAAAAAAAALLY!? i have a polished 75mm TB from my SC.. think it might be a little too much?
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: flylear45 on November 12, 2011, 06:57:23 PM
It's better to match the TB to the HP output of the engine. Smaller is better for driveability.
If you need it, do it. If it's not a restriction, don't.
With too large a TB it ends up being such a small deflection of the pedal to get a big change in the air delivered that it isn't as fun to drive.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 12, 2011, 07:13:01 PM
i guess i should have started this by asking,, how big is the stock tb? or should i say small lol.. 75mm seems a bit big for a 2.3, but again.. i don't know much about these turbo 4 bangers yet.. learning something already, but i wouldn't say i'm comfortable enough to dive in and build a potentially 400hp motor like i would a small block
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 12, 2011, 07:58:38 PM
here's a list of things i plan to do before i start driving it..
- compression test.. if that checks out good, than:
- front mount intercooler with my own mandrel bent plumbing - 3" downpipe to 2-1/2" duals with stainless tips - 3" fresh air intake - fresh tune-up/fluid change - new timing belt and accessory belt - a good throttle body/intake cleaning - adjust boost according to what turbo is lurking under the hood
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 14, 2011, 05:32:41 PM
well, things are looking up for this car already and it's not even here yet.. i'm getting a rebuilt, 0 mile garrett T3/4 for basically nothing (my current turbo plus $50 cash, whether it's the IHI or a T3).. just need to take a ride to de to get it
now, out of spontaneousness, i went on summit's site and looked up cams for the 2.3.. since i know nothing about these 2.3 cam durations/lift/lobe separation, i figured i would ask how well any of these cams would work. none of them (as least that i've seen) are 'SVO/TC/2.3T only' cams, infact, none of those are mentioned.. but it doesn't say NA only either..
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 14, 2011, 06:35:30 PM
Don't waste your time there. Call either Engle and ask about there line of 2.3 roller cams, or Boport (although he is currently experiecing supplier issues, and his stock is VERY limited, if he has any at all). Schnieder also offers some nice grinds. Esslinger carries rollers, but they're pretty pricey.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 14, 2011, 07:20:07 PM
was just curious and looking.. was on there ordering a remote oil relocator and figured i'd check some out. the only thing boport has in stock is stage 4, which i want nothing to do with at .620 lift.. the others don't list prices up front, which i HATE.. not to mention, i see nothing 2.3T specific.. i don't like playing guessing games and i hate dealing with companies (and people) who don't give a price up front..
i'm not touching whatever cam is in it anytime soon, if at all, i was just curious.. if the motor dies before next winter, it's getting trashed for a built SC motor.. i was originally going to take that direction, but i figured i'll give the 4cyl a chance.. if i like it, i'll rebuild it next winter.. if it dies on me and i'm forced to put my yota back to daily driver status, i'm not going to be a happy camper.. i don't want to daily drive a bagged truck again
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: jangus on November 14, 2011, 07:35:52 PM
Engle and Schnieder both have very good reputations. Give them a call. Last I knew, Engle's price was a little under $300 for the cam.
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 14, 2011, 07:49:05 PM
i'll basically be forced to IF the 4cyl lives until next year, since these companies don't know how to list prices.. a cam change isn't really an option right now, though.. just basic 'bolt ons' that didn't really involve downtime. i get the car next week and it needs to be on the road within a week from then, so my yota can go into winter hiding from snow and salt..
this is basically just down-the-road research.. thanks for the company names though, i wrote them down in my 'shop' notebook so i don't forget who/what they are
Title: TC 2.3 questions
Post by: Shadow on November 15, 2011, 01:35:24 AM
looking at these 2 intercoolers. the first 1 i have on my capri and it works pretty well for cooling the air it's cramming down the 408's throat.. the 2nd is a little wider and an inch over half the height of the 1st 1.. 1/2 an inch thinner, too