Hello everyone. First time poster and newbie to car repair. Essentially I'm a computer geek, but I'm trying to bridge over into the mechanical realm as well. My main goal is to completely restore my T-Bird, but that's a long term goal. Right now I just need it working.
Okay with that aside, I have an 88 T-Bird Turbocoupe. I just dropped three grand into the engine, but a month later it has died again. After talking with several mechanics, we came to a consensus that it was a fuel issue. My current objective is to replace the fuel pump and restore the tank. Me and my dad replaced the fuel pump on my 88 Cougar three years ago, but my T-bird has a lot more rust.
Onto the details. I need to know two things before I can do this.
First, there is a second electrical connection to the tank. I have been unable to find any details or replacement parts for this. I honestly have no clue what it is, what it does, or where to find a new one. The connectors need replaced too, which I have also had trouble finding.
Second, the fuel pump and lock ring are rusted all to hell. I've had it soaking in WD-40 for a couple days, but I've had no luck. The lock ring won't budge and the rubber fuel lines won't come off. The metal just bends. Chances are I'll have to replace those lines, but I absolutely need to get the pump out if I don't want to purchase a new tank.
Here are some images I took real quick. The unit in question is on the left. The pump, in all it's rusty glory, is on the right. All images were taken from my phone and in a rushed manner so quality might not be the highest.
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9094/img20111012190914.jpg
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8721/img20111012190932.jpg
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/1914/img20111012190921.jpg
To summarize, I need to know what that second electrical connector is to, where to find the electrical connectors themselves, and how to get the rusty fuel pump out without breaking off the tabs.
second connector is for the fuel level sending unit, the connectors you might have to find in a junk yard or ask a member here that is parting out a car. as far as the lock ring you might have to let it soak and try working the ring back and forth to free it up with a hammer and chisel.
hmm.. don't know why your lines won't come off, you removed the plastic clips so they should pop off with relative ease..
you will need the special disconnect tool for the return line.....
my lines were permanently rusted to the nylon, and wouldn't come off too
rock auto sells the locking rings and hanger assembly
those pics look exactly like mine... even the broken connector for the wiring
Thank you for the expedient responses.
That's one mystery solved. I'm assuming finding that particular unit would be a major pain, so I'll try to reuse the one that's there if possible. The only issue is the rust; I'd hate for it to go out in the future. Plus I need to get it out to clean and coat the tank, which probably won't be easy or forgiving.
I'll keep working on that lock ring, but I've already destroyed one tab. I'm switching to a block of wood instead of a chisel for now. Maybe a couple days of pounding and soaking will loosen it out enough.
I'm clueless as to how the lines got stuck on as well. I've yanked and tugged on them quite a bit, but all I've succeeded in doing was bending the steel pipe a little. I'm thinking I'll just cut them off and replace them. Whatever is causing them to stick probably destroyed the o-rings anyways.
Also, what tool might that be? If I know what I need, I can make one or just improvise. I did not need a special tool for my Cougar, so I've never heard of it.
I doubt they're exactly the same. If they are, here's another one showing a self mod we did. We welded on a drain/fill plug to the differential about a year and a half back.
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5268/img20111012202803.jpg
to coat the exterior of the tank, use POR 15.. it works amazingly.. just give the tank a nice scuff down with 220 grit sand paper or a wire wheel on a grinder and coat it.
at the tank? you sure? after popping the plastic clips off mine, they both slid right off with little to no effort.. and that's on all the fox cars i've owned
the lines do have clips, and should pull off.
I actually have a POR 15 restoration kit for the inside. I just planned on using a cheap paint on the outside. POR 15 is expensive.
at the price of Por 15... why not just buy a new tank?
Looking at the tank and sender it is SHOT. Could be wrong but i dont think so. Tank and pump ass is still available. Fuel sender is obsolete. But you can make one quite easily. I have dun many. The tank is like 120 bucks +or - abd the fuel pump ass is app the same. Start looking on line for a used good unit. They are available. Good Luck
you can still buy it by the pint, can't you? it's been a long time since, but my dad bought a pint of gray when he swapped the frame in his cutlass.. a pint was enough to cover the entire tank
I don't know about that tank... it's pretty rusted
Once th
good possibility it is shot.. it's an ohio car after all.. he's in 1 of the worst parts of the rust belt..
they also have replacement connector ends for the nylon lines.... I redid a couple connectors on mine that were mangled. but you need the compression tool.
hmmm lol I thought there was one at the tank but I must be wrong. guess I was thinking about the one on the other end of the plastic lines
Not for nothing !!! But STEVIE WONDER CAN SEE THAT TANK AND SENDER IS SHOT!!!!
they have a special word for people who make comments like that.. for your info, i was on my phone.. which makes the pictures 25x SMALLER
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Relax, Tom. You've made your point.
To the original poster: you may try using some penetrating oil (PB Blaster) instead of WD-40, which really isn't the best tool for penetrating rusty, frozen parts.
Just a
I don't think that locking ring is going to come off in one piece anyway..
For those of us that might do one or two fuel pumps in our lives, and how easy it is to replace the ring, I'll be able to sleep tonight knowing somone used a screw driver instead of a punch.
I think everyone who has used a screw driver with a hammer knows your not suposed to hit it with said hammer. But a screw driver is cheap, and easy to replace, and something I can pick up 24 hours without any problems. A brass punch or special tool to remove it on the other hand...
And just for the record, I am all over using the right tool for the job, but I won't go broke if it doesn't save me any time, or money, or if I might use it once.
we were trying to relate by sharing the obvious right?
And
I stand by my comment. Its hard to get a spark inside of a gas tank that is still sealed shut. I hope the metal ring a gas tank don't spark while using the brass puncch. I see that as just as likely.
who said anything about painting the ring with por 15? certainly wasn't me.. the ring should definitely be replaced if it's rusted that bad, because we all know it's going to wind up getting wrecked when it gets beat on to remove it..
ANYWAY.. If a new tank is that cheap, just replace it. just make sure you spray the new tank with a couple good coats of decent paint.. decent meaning no 98 cent cans of walmarts cheap paint lol
I s
Well, I've been pounding on it for a couple days now, and I'm not sure I'm going to get it off without destroying the tank or blowing something up. I'll give it until the end of the weekend. If I can't get the ring to budge at all, I'll call this tank quits. I'll try PB Blaster today.
Definitely need a new sending unit, though. It's still working, but it's in too poor of shape to keep. I did tons of searching and came up with nothing. Making my own is starting to sound like a good idea. At least then I'd know it wouldn't rust away. Either that or salvage what I can of the current unit.
Good news is I found a tank for under 100 including shipping =D
pb blast always does the trick for me.. i haven't used wd40 since i was 14, over 10 years ago lol i would soak the ring good enough that there's a little puddle all the way around the ring.. that'll give it more to soak in as it sits.. also try moving around the 3 spots where you can get your chisel or whatever you're using.. that always helps in breaking it loose.. 3 impact points are better than 1 lol.. and cover the filler neck hole with duct tape to keep some of the fumes from escaping and making 1 giant firework.. lol
Haynes Manual directions for removing a tank ring.
QUOTE Tap the lock ring tabs with a brass punch and hammer.
suppose you could try a piece of hardwood too,if you don't have a brass punch
Their is also a way to evacuate all the fumes from a gas tank. A good friend of mine owns a radiator shop and told me how to do it many years ago. All you need is a shop vac. One that is certified flame proof. Hook the hose to the exhaust port of the Vac. Then remove the rollover valve and or the sender pump assembly. And then start the vacuum with the hose connected to the fill pipe. The air blowing into the tank will blow out all the fumes. It takes a couple of hours but it works. We do this when installing fittings or return lines for EFI conversions. Or bottom feed fittings. This allows you to braze or solder on an old tank. Dont rush the evacuation and test it for fumes before doing modifications to a tank. Hope this helps.
Note make absolutely certain all the fumes are evacuated before putting a flame to a tank. Thanks
Thanks. I always considered a screw driver to be lethal. Now I have proof.
screw drivers are more lethal without a gas tank.. i've heard of plenty of murderers who used a flathead as their weapon of choice lol
Never
Mr tom, I would like to appologize for the way I reacted. You are right that you should go with the safest way possible, even with little chances.
I have been going through some personal things, and I took what you were saying the wrong way.
So, I got busy for a week or so, but now I'm back at it. I've got a lot of good news, a little bad news, and hopefully my final question.
First off, I got myself some real penetrating oil. In my arsenal, I now have PB Blaster, Kano, and CRC Freeze Off. I could tell the difference right away.
Anyways, I sprayed that on last night, and today worked out almost as good as I'd hoped. I got the lines off first and pulled the tank out. The gas that was remaining in it is in the bucket to the right. A lot more than I thought would be left.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7309/img20111023150254.jpg
Unfortunately, part of the piping from the pump broke off along with the line.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/479/img20111023145533.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7426/img20111023154317.jpg
Well, anyways, I got the tank out and started working on that sending unit. Cleaned it off to find that the metal had rusted through.
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/9009/img20111023145526.jpg
Now, I knew I couldn't cut it off, but I had the bright idea of pulling it off. I grabbed my trusty pair of pliers and yanked on it for a while. Probably not the safest way, but it worked.
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2997/img20111023151124.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1031/img20111023154234.jpg
It came out better than I could've ever hoped. All I have to do is tear off the rest of the top and remake it. Connector and everything is still in one piece.
Now, onto my question. How do I replace those ends on the fuel lines? I'm assuming it's not just plug and play.
I also still have to remake the electrical connectors, but that shouldn't be that bad. Worst case scenario I machine a block of plastic to fit and find a way to secure it. Best case I make a mold and melt some plastic into it.
As an added question, how is galvanized steel when it comes to rusting? I'm assuming pretty good, but I'm basing that on the chemical structure, not real world experience. I ask because that's what my new tank is made of.
you can replace the fuel line ends... they have barbed connectors on them that push into the lines.... I had to use a special tool though. (borrowed from my mechanic friend)
maybe you cam borrow one from a shop, or rent one from a parts place
Edit:
This was the tool I used for the fuel lines
(http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/b463/daminc-pics2/putting%20it%20back%20together/IMG_1618.jpg)
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that kit is awesome.. there's a newer kit that doesn't even need the compression tool I believe... it uses press on connectors like the new PEX tubing uses for plumbing water lines
Tha
The sending unit is still in perfect working order. All it needs is a new mounting piece which is extremely easy. I could probably whip one up in about an hour.
Also, I did get a new tank. Fuel pump would have to be cut out to save the old tank. Managed to break off all four tabs using a block of hardwood.
I found the tool for under 70, so I'll probably just order one. Other than that, I just need to get my friend to help weld on some new support brackets for the straps to bolt into, and it'll be good to go.
I'll update when I finish to let you know how it went ^.^
So, back to say that it was almost a complete success. It did end up being a ton more work than it should've, though. Things just kept going wrong.
The sending unit was pretty simple to rebuild, but I did have some unexpected problems. I made the top plate at work and ended up having a coworker weld it together. He tig welded part of it, but he had to mig the tube. The pipe was 1/4 ID and 5/16 OD so I tapped it M7. They didn't have any head bolts in M7 at the local hardware, so I had a coworker rig up something to resistance weld a washer on. Add in a rubber washer thingy (I forget details easily), and all that was left was the wiring. The sending wire was easy, but I learned that you can't solder to steel. Ended up welding over the top of the solder. I just used an old computer connector for it. I used silicone caulk over any openings and then electrical taped over it for added protection.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7489/img20111112141605.jpg
The support brackets were the part that took me the most time. My friend fell through, so I had to buy my own welder and learn how to weld. Welding stock steel was easy, but welding it onto the bottom of the trunk was hard for me. I took this picture before I finished up. Ended up having my dad give me advice over the phone. It isn't terrible, but I am still kind of worried it might break under a full tank. Kinda blurry, but I was more worried about getting it done than getting a good picture.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5158/img20111113213601.jpg
My fuel pump didn't fit the tank completely properly so I had to ground down one side a bit. The sending unit gave me trouble, since it didn't have that bump in the middle to align the ring. I got both in and the tank was all ready. Lifted it into place only to find that the "OEM" straps from every place are wrong. Tried them on both the old and new tanks, and they weren't even close. I ended up welding on an extra 3" on it.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8118/img20111113232053.jpg
The worst part was finding out my sending unit got screwed up somehow. It constantly reads full. I checked it with a multimeter before putting it in and it read correctly. Not sure what the problem is, but it'll have to wait. I'm wore out from this.
Considering I came into this with almost zero knowledge, I didn't do too bad. I'll probably have to have someone else touch up on things, and I have no clue about the sending unit. Theoretically everything should've been good, but I guess I screwed something up. Anyways, unless someone has an idea about the sending unit, I'm done with this particular issue.
Car is up and running good =D
So, did you use a screw driver, or a brass punch on that crusty lock ring?
(The fate of FTBCF..and the whole universe rests on your answer)
:rollin:
I've changed a fuel pump or 3....maybe more. Used a screwdriver every time.
Never seen fireballs...lol
If you do it every day, yeh, get the brass punch or better yet, the proper tool.
When you're stuck at home, and the truck is the only thing you have to drive, and you need it fixed NOW, then yeah..I used a screwdriver.
It's also a bad idea to urinate on electric fences, but 3 out of 5 guys try it anyway.. :punchballs:
Good Job. The pump hanger and lines look nice. Hope you figure out the sender it sucks trying to calculate mileage till empty.
Good luck.
I used a block of wood on it. I've never had good luck with screwdrivers or punches.
And as an added update, remove the good part. I was being careful with it last night. Tried to give it some gas today and it lacked power. It looks like it was a two part problem >.<
Fuel pressure is good and the car runs good at low rpms(<2-2.5k), but ~3k it just becomes weak. I'm kind of clueless at this point.
Tank didn't fall off, though, so I guess my welding was ok XD
Bump from the dead..im working on getting new lock rings for the fuel gauge sender before I try to pull it off. Rock Auto shows a listing for multiple ones does anyone know which one a turbo coupe should use?
Could be any of these...
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=17616&cc=1430182
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=17617&cc=1430182
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=622773&cc=1430182
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1533694&cc=1430182
When I did my 83, I just went to the dealer and they happened to have the correct one in stock. I think it was like $8. It might be worth a shot to run to a dealer if you have one nearby...
When I helped my buddy do the one on the tbird, the mustang ones fit from orileys.