Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: budnscrap on September 04, 2011, 09:22:21 AM
Post by: budnscrap on September 04, 2011, 09:22:21 AM
This is probably a dumb questions! what is the diference between an 87 and 88 T-bird?
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 04, 2011, 10:21:52 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 04, 2011, 10:21:52 AM
Depends on the model/engine...
There were some different colors available that did not carry from year to year...
The 3.8 switched from CFI to EFI, HP was upped(don't know numbers, I walk a wide path around the Ford 3.8)... The 5.0 got dual exhaust and was upped to 155Hp(WOW), the 2.3 Turbo received different computer programming that allowed full boost in all gears(5-speed only)... The 2.3T also received a Hitachi alternator to repl the failure pr0ne Ford 2G unit...
The Base, LX & TC changes were minimal... For the LX & TC the trim was changed on the door handle pull from a painted one piece design to a chromed two piece... A early change(Oct '87) to all models(incl Base) was the rear window trim went from a four piece powder coated design to a one piece rubber molding, these are not directly interchangeable... There were some audio deletions, the phospscent dial radio used mostly in other carlines since '85 was dropped for '88...
The Sport gained the TC Recardo seats and buttstuffogue gauges, a few got the 8.8" rear, best I can determine that was late year model change...
No doubt are a few other minor changes, but mostly '88 was mostly a carry over year...
There were some different colors available that did not carry from year to year...
The 3.8 switched from CFI to EFI, HP was upped(don't know numbers, I walk a wide path around the Ford 3.8)... The 5.0 got dual exhaust and was upped to 155Hp(WOW), the 2.3 Turbo received different computer programming that allowed full boost in all gears(5-speed only)... The 2.3T also received a Hitachi alternator to repl the failure pr0ne Ford 2G unit...
The Base, LX & TC changes were minimal... For the LX & TC the trim was changed on the door handle pull from a painted one piece design to a chromed two piece... A early change(Oct '87) to all models(incl Base) was the rear window trim went from a four piece powder coated design to a one piece rubber molding, these are not directly interchangeable... There were some audio deletions, the phospscent dial radio used mostly in other carlines since '85 was dropped for '88...
The Sport gained the TC Recardo seats and buttstuffogue gauges, a few got the 8.8" rear, best I can determine that was late year model change...
No doubt are a few other minor changes, but mostly '88 was mostly a carry over year...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: cougarman on September 04, 2011, 10:47:41 AM
Post by: cougarman on September 04, 2011, 10:47:41 AM
5.0 wiring harness is different between the years also, mainly in the connectors. (found that out the hard way)
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 04, 2011, 11:48:16 AM
Post by: Beau on September 04, 2011, 11:48:16 AM
As far as the '88 cars, that year only the 3.8 had a balance shaft, it was gone again for the '89 and up cars, and also hadn't been used prior to '88.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: budnscrap on September 05, 2011, 09:32:39 AM
Post by: budnscrap on September 05, 2011, 09:32:39 AM
the wiring is a much needed tip! My 87 has a digitial dash wich I would like to keep. Have been busy, so not much done on engine swap but hope to get bird under car port today to finish up! It is raining here!! lol
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: budnscrap on September 05, 2011, 09:37:08 AM
Post by: budnscrap on September 05, 2011, 09:37:08 AM
Hate to make new thread...can some one send me pic of 87 tbird front end under hood..body shop did last clip change a few years back and I think there are a few things missing behind headlights etc that hold up weight of header panel an light assembly.. "nose" is just bolted to fenders...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 12:34:57 PM
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 12:34:57 PM
Yeah, the header bolts up to the fenders, and there's also two bolts that connect to the the core support, with nuts on the far side of those...that's about it..lol
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: RoyLPita on September 05, 2011, 06:29:49 PM
Post by: RoyLPita on September 05, 2011, 06:29:49 PM
My early build '88 sport had an 8.8 rear but didn't have the "c" pillar interior lights.
Also, Turbo coupes in '87 only had boost in 1st and 2nd gear with the manual transmission. '88 had boost in all 5 gears.
Also, Turbo coupes in '87 only had boost in 1st and 2nd gear with the manual transmission. '88 had boost in all 5 gears.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 05, 2011, 07:00:05 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 05, 2011, 07:00:05 PM
From what i know the 87-88 TC has the same ECM and boost parameters. The back window on the 87 TC has metal trim and the 88 has a vinyl strip. Other than that they are fairly identical i think. Why would ford limit the boost to first and second only. That makes no sense whatsoever. As far as the other models i really don't know the differences other than the engine options.
Both the 87-88 had an 8.8 and sail panel lights. I have an 87 and an 88 Both make BOOST IN EVERY GEAR
Both the 87-88 had an 8.8 and sail panel lights. I have an 87 and an 88 Both make BOOST IN EVERY GEAR
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 05, 2011, 07:10:00 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 05, 2011, 07:10:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaGCZuuBw10
Look at the BOOST GAUGE. The guy hits third and the boost goes past 16 LBS.
Look at the BOOST GAUGE. The guy hits third and the boost goes past 16 LBS.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:29:22 PM
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:29:22 PM
A stock '87 will NOT make full boost in all forward gears...
When this fella talks about Tbird....rest assured he knows his shiznit..he's had more TC's in his driveway at any one time than most have probably seen in our lives....most of us.
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;366743
the 2.3 Turbo received different computer programming that allowed full boost in all gears(5-speed only)
When this fella talks about Tbird....rest assured he knows his shiznit..he's had more TC's in his driveway at any one time than most have probably seen in our lives....most of us.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 05, 2011, 07:37:34 PM
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 05, 2011, 07:37:34 PM
Strange this thing about the back window having vinyl trim on the 88. My late build (Oct 1988) 88 had metal trim - I'm certain of this because I destroyed it taking it off for the paint job and ended up using the trim off the 87 TC parts car. Had a w of a time finding the metal clips that hold the trim on, too - I believe a member of this forum mailed me some...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2011, 07:41:25 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2011, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;366810
A stock '87 will NOT make full boost in all forward gears...
That is correct, the ECM is different in a '87 vs '88(LA2 vs LA3), the boost was limited to around 10psi in 3rd, 4th & 5th... These days most have probably had the BCS disconnected and a adjustable valve installed it set boost, so yeah they will full boost in all gears...
BTW supposedly late '87 did receive the LA3 ECM(has been reported over on NATO)...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:42:19 PM
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:42:19 PM
Mine was made in April '88, has the vinyl rear window trim..as to it being 100% factory..I couldn't tell you. Did find a shiznit-ton of glass under the back seat when I first removed it though. It was under the whole seat, which makes me wonder if the back glass wasn't busted out, and replaced with something different.
EDIT:
My white '88 had the metal trim, I *thought* it was a later build though..I'll look, see if I can find some info or a pic of the tag etc.
EDIT:
My white '88 had the metal trim, I *thought* it was a later build though..I'll look, see if I can find some info or a pic of the tag etc.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2011, 07:51:01 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2011, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;366814
Mine was made in April '88, has the vinyl rear window trim..as to it being 100% factory..I couldn't tell you. Did find a shiznit-ton of glass under the back seat when I first removed it though. It was under the whole seat, which makes me wonder if the back glass wasn't busted out, and replaced with something different.
EDIT:
My white '88 had the metal trim, it was a later build though..I'll look, see if I can find some info or a pic of the tag etc.
The switch from rear window metal trim to the vinyl strip was in Oct '87, so early '88 had the same trim as the '87... The ones I currently own have 5/88 & 6/88 build and the vinyl strip...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:53:07 PM
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:53:07 PM
For differences on the Sport, '87 Sports had a digi cluster, the TC style door panels, base seats, and a console, but were column shift, I *think*.
The '88 Sports had LX/Base door panels, TC seats, floor shift, and obviously the console. Not to mention the buttstuffog cluster.
That was pretty much it...and of course the '88 5.0 cars had the dual-to-single-to-dual exhaust that gained 5 HP and probably 40 pounds lol.
Mechanically the V8 cars were the same.
Differences in wiring connectors, as well.
The 3.8 cars as mentioned went to sefi instead of keeping the cfi as the '87 had.
Not that it's relevant here, but if you have a 3.8 car, and you're swapping in a 5.0, not only are the fuel lines different, but also the wiring (5.0 vs. 3.8) is somewhat different as well. I discovered this when attempting to use a 3.8 dash harness in my Sport. Both are '88. The connectors are different, and the 3.8 has a different method of connecting to the headlight harness. Just a FYI...
The '88 Sports had LX/Base door panels, TC seats, floor shift, and obviously the console. Not to mention the buttstuffog cluster.
That was pretty much it...and of course the '88 5.0 cars had the dual-to-single-to-dual exhaust that gained 5 HP and probably 40 pounds lol.
Mechanically the V8 cars were the same.
Differences in wiring connectors, as well.
The 3.8 cars as mentioned went to sefi instead of keeping the cfi as the '87 had.
Not that it's relevant here, but if you have a 3.8 car, and you're swapping in a 5.0, not only are the fuel lines different, but also the wiring (5.0 vs. 3.8) is somewhat different as well. I discovered this when attempting to use a 3.8 dash harness in my Sport. Both are '88. The connectors are different, and the 3.8 has a different method of connecting to the headlight harness. Just a FYI...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:54:55 PM
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:54:55 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;366816
The switch from rear window metal trim to the vinyl strip was in Oct '87, so early '88 had the same trim as the '87... The ones I currently own have 5/88 & 6/88 build and the vinyl strip...
Earlier than 4/88 possibly? Or maybe mine WAS replaced later....hmmm.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2011, 07:58:27 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2011, 07:58:27 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;366817
For differences on the Sport, '87 Sports had a digi cluster, the TC style door panels, base seats, and a console, but were column shift, I *think*.
The Sports used the same door panel as Base, LX & TC are similar if not same... I've owned 14 '87 & '88 TC, but only one ea of the '88 Base, LX and the '87 Sport... I did have a '88 Sport here for a week or so with the option to buy but decided against it...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:59:36 PM
Post by: Beau on September 05, 2011, 07:59:36 PM
Ahh wasn't sure.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 05, 2011, 11:07:23 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 05, 2011, 11:07:23 PM
My '88 Sport has the metal trim on the rear window (and I'm happy about that). I believe there was a mid year change in that if I recall correctly. Both my other '88's had the plastic type trim. Hated that once they started getting older.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 06, 2011, 08:13:07 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 06, 2011, 08:13:07 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;366812
Strange this thing about the back window having vinyl trim on the 88. My late build (Oct 1988) 88 had metal trim - I'm certain of this because I destroyed it taking it off for the paint job and ended up using the trim off the 87 TC parts car. Had a w of a time finding the metal clips that hold the trim on, too - I believe a member of this forum mailed me some...
Carm in Oct of '88 they were building 1989 models... All the 1988 Oct '87 & earlier builds I've seen had the metal trim, one of my '88 TC had it, possibly was a early Nov change... A guy I race with has a Oct '87 build Sport, it also has the metal trim....
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: RoyLPita on September 06, 2011, 10:26:53 AM
Post by: RoyLPita on September 06, 2011, 10:26:53 AM
The blue Turbo Coupe that I looked into needs the metal trim because the other rubber trim nowhere to be found.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 06, 2011, 01:28:20 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 06, 2011, 01:28:20 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;366813
That is correct, the ECM is different in a '87 vs '88(LA2 vs LA3), the boost was limited to around 10psi in 3rd, 4th & 5th... These days most have probably had the BCS disconnected and a adjustable valve installed it set boost, so yeah they will full boost in all gears...
BTW supposedly late '87 did receive the LA3 ECM(has been reported over on NATO)...
Thats funny it was posted that the 87 does not make boost in 3/4/ 5. That is definitely not true. And my 100% stock TC has an LA3 and i bought it brand new. For what reason would ford build a turbo car that limited boost in 1/2 gear. That statement is not true. My 87 boosts in all 5 forward gears to max. Did you see the commercial. As the matter of fact ALLDATA shows the same part number for both cars (5 SPEEDER). I am confused to the fact when ford went to the LA3. Most all my friends with 87 birds have the LA3 stock from the factory Thanks 50
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 06, 2011, 01:38:39 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 06, 2011, 01:38:39 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;366810
A stock '87 will NOT make full boost in all forward gears...
When this fella talks about Tbird....rest assured he knows his shiznit..he's had more TC's in his driveway at any one time than most have probably seen in our lives....most of us.
Just for the record the 87 does not boost past second gear!!!!! That statement is the silliest thing i have ever read. (That according to your EXPERT?????) Now you know that is NOT TRUE. And i have a 100% stock 87 that has an LA3 computer and it came that way from the factory. I dont know when they went from an LA2 to an LA3 but my car came with an LA# from ford and it makes full boost in all forward gears. By the way i know a few things about the TC fords or haven't you been reading my posts. Either way as usual you are correct and i am a DUMMY. And as a body shop i have removed more T BIRD windows than you can imagine. And both my 88 birds have vinyl and my 100% stock 87 has metal. SEE YOU.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 06, 2011, 01:42:44 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 06, 2011, 01:42:44 PM
LOOK at the ford commercial and when the guy hits 3 the boost goes past 16 LBS. That is exactly what my 87 DOES and it did that from DAY ONE. Once again SEE YOU. I can feel the tension and i will take it and say BYE BYE.
Either way this is where it is AT anyway. Thank you and good bye
http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-Copy-2.jpg
Either way this is where it is AT anyway. Thank you and good bye
http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-Copy-2.jpg
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 06, 2011, 03:47:05 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 06, 2011, 03:47:05 PM
As I posted, the '87 with with LA2 ECM boosts fully in 1st & 2nd, but only around 10psi in the other gears... I have no idea when the change occurred from the LA2 to LA3 ECM, supposedly was a late year change...
The automatics were limited to 8-9psi both years do to a higher bleed rate on one of the fittings on the turbo, HP rating was cut to 150...
The automatics were limited to 8-9psi both years do to a higher bleed rate on one of the fittings on the turbo, HP rating was cut to 150...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 06, 2011, 04:47:49 PM
Post by: Beau on September 06, 2011, 04:47:49 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366882
LOOK at the ford commercial and when the guy hits 3 the boost goes past 16 LBS. That is exactly what my 87 DOES and it did that from DAY ONE. Once again SEE YOU. I can feel the tension and i will take it and say BYE BYE.
Quote from: TOM Renzo
Either way this is where it is AT anyway. Thank you and good bye
http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-Copy-2.jpg
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Glocklimited9 on September 06, 2011, 06:04:51 PM
Post by: Glocklimited9 on September 06, 2011, 06:04:51 PM
"When this fella talks about Tbird....rest assured he knows his shiznit..he's had more TC's in his driveway at any one time than most have probably seen in our lives....most of us."
Lmao another character that thinks he knows our life stories, unlike alot of the trash talkers on here, Ours actually run ;) When i was into Tbirds we had my white one, my red one that was the rainy day bad weather beater, and then our black one. ALL of them had modifications, big valve heads, schnieder cams, ect ect, do some research before you trash talk idiot.
The picture above is cute, there Must be a reason people are swaping these motors in everything, How do you feel knowing you can spend 6 grand on a good Heads/cam setup or even a supercharger on your 5.slow, and a cam only LS1 will still make more power.
Not to mention, me and my dad are off our LS1 kick, We've moved on to LS3's and LS7's for our toys now :)
Lmao another character that thinks he knows our life stories, unlike alot of the trash talkers on here, Ours actually run ;) When i was into Tbirds we had my white one, my red one that was the rainy day bad weather beater, and then our black one. ALL of them had modifications, big valve heads, schnieder cams, ect ect, do some research before you trash talk idiot.
The picture above is cute, there Must be a reason people are swaping these motors in everything, How do you feel knowing you can spend 6 grand on a good Heads/cam setup or even a supercharger on your 5.slow, and a cam only LS1 will still make more power.
Not to mention, me and my dad are off our LS1 kick, We've moved on to LS3's and LS7's for our toys now :)
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: hypostang on September 06, 2011, 06:19:06 PM
Post by: hypostang on September 06, 2011, 06:19:06 PM
Really ???????????........... again with this
"Also, Turbo coupes in '87 only had boost in 1st and 2nd gear with the manual transmission. '88 had boost in all 5 gears. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"this was posted by a member named "ROYLPITA" not TurboCoupe50 and it is factually incorrect "
Everything Tom and Turbocoupe50 posted is not incorrect ,
Tom Jr you do not need to come in here and defend your father every time someone disagrees with him , He is a big boy with great tech info and is appreciated by most people on this forum ...You just come across as an ass when you start bragging . Granted Beau could try being less of an ass to Tom too and there would be less of this nonsense going on
"Also, Turbo coupes in '87 only had boost in 1st and 2nd gear with the manual transmission. '88 had boost in all 5 gears. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"this was posted by a member named "ROYLPITA" not TurboCoupe50 and it is factually incorrect "
Everything Tom and Turbocoupe50 posted is not incorrect ,
Tom Jr you do not need to come in here and defend your father every time someone disagrees with him , He is a big boy with great tech info and is appreciated by most people on this forum ...You just come across as an ass when you start bragging . Granted Beau could try being less of an ass to Tom too and there would be less of this nonsense going on
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Glocklimited9 on September 06, 2011, 06:46:10 PM
Post by: Glocklimited9 on September 06, 2011, 06:46:10 PM
Hypo, maybe you should look at the post more, its not about disagreeing, this is a forum and thats what its for and my comment had nothing to do with the la2/3 debate. Its the fact that he had to make a smartass comment and say "When this fella talks about Tbird....rest assured he knows his shiznit..he's had more TC's in his driveway at any one time than most have probably seen in our lives....most of us"
If he wants to be a smartass ill return the favor ;) but enough nonsense, i have some custom tbird body parts that just finished baking in the paint booth i need to attend to
If he wants to be a smartass ill return the favor ;) but enough nonsense, i have some custom tbird body parts that just finished baking in the paint booth i need to attend to
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 06, 2011, 06:57:26 PM
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 06, 2011, 06:57:26 PM
Why the shag is it that every time somebody dares to disagree with one of these two in a thread, ANY thread, regardless what the thread is about (and apparently regardless whether these two are right or wrong), it goes all to hell? Growing really tired of it...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 06, 2011, 07:03:31 PM
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 06, 2011, 07:03:31 PM
Oh, and Turbocoupe50, you're right - I just looked at the pic I still have of my old door tag, and the car was indeed built in 10/87...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 06, 2011, 07:27:16 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 06, 2011, 07:27:16 PM
The 87-88coupes were built with 5 DIFFERENT ECM'S. Early late auto and 5 speeder.
Just trying to give out some info. You are correct Thunder Chicken. I will move ON.
Just trying to give out some info. You are correct Thunder Chicken. I will move ON.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 06, 2011, 07:37:09 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 06, 2011, 07:37:09 PM
My Sport was born in August of '87 (she's an '88 model).
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 06, 2011, 08:00:46 PM
Post by: Beau on September 06, 2011, 08:00:46 PM
Yeh, I'm done with this. Sorry I caused any ill feelings. See ya.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 06, 2011, 08:54:35 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 06, 2011, 08:54:35 PM
Nobody has to be "done" with it, we just don't need to argue about it. It's not a big deal.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 06, 2011, 11:29:53 PM
Post by: Beau on September 06, 2011, 11:29:53 PM
That's what I meant...that I was done arguing about it. No worries...
But, for the record...mine runs too.
But, for the record...mine runs too.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 07, 2011, 12:24:14 AM
Post by: Mischief on September 07, 2011, 12:24:14 AM
Question: With a MBC, does the prem/reg switch still retard timing at all?
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/CyLMischief/TC%20/IMG_20110907_000429.jpg)
LA3. Before MBC it pushed around 15lbs on Prem. 8-10lbs in reg. Perhaps it was where it was manufactured at/for? Sort of like the Canadian Cherokee's that had 3 cat's where as American had 1 with the same 4L inline 6? The world may never know.
I will say that the gloating shiznit is kind of stupid. It's a funny picture and it made me laugh, despite the fact that I do have mad props for the LS motors having lived for so long and being rather powerful engines. I have seen several of your posts where your automatic defense is to engage a g contest saying "My dad and I are awesome and this is why!" That doesn't put either of you in a particularly good light. I have an astounding amount of respect for Tom as he has given me some of the best insight I have received so far as my car is concerned. But, as his son, his accomplishments are not yours. Your arrogance completely detracts credibility from him as everything I have read from you when you get defensive contains no fact, only gloating and criticizing others. Your vehicles run, awesome, so do 700 million other cars in the world. That was a stat from 04 as the study has not been done again and I'm sure you can assume it's an approximation, considering more than an additional 100 million have been produced since then, we can estimate closer to 780 million.
Now, more to the point, I think, just for the personal edification of all of us, we should find the source of the LA2/LA3 87-88 Turbo Coupes. I have heard and read from MANY sources the LA2's DO NOT boost fully in all forward gears. I don't think this is some shiznit 16.5 million sources would make up. So lets get to doing some research!
(Disclaimer *** I am not the original owner of the car so I cannot, at this time, Validate the LA3 ECM being factory as I am not pulling it out at 12:30am. That can wait for the next time I need to crack it open) The stock boost controller has been replaced as well.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/CyLMischief/TC%20/IMG_20110907_000429.jpg)
LA3. Before MBC it pushed around 15lbs on Prem. 8-10lbs in reg. Perhaps it was where it was manufactured at/for? Sort of like the Canadian Cherokee's that had 3 cat's where as American had 1 with the same 4L inline 6? The world may never know.
I will say that the gloating shiznit is kind of stupid. It's a funny picture and it made me laugh, despite the fact that I do have mad props for the LS motors having lived for so long and being rather powerful engines. I have seen several of your posts where your automatic defense is to engage a g contest saying "My dad and I are awesome and this is why!" That doesn't put either of you in a particularly good light. I have an astounding amount of respect for Tom as he has given me some of the best insight I have received so far as my car is concerned. But, as his son, his accomplishments are not yours. Your arrogance completely detracts credibility from him as everything I have read from you when you get defensive contains no fact, only gloating and criticizing others. Your vehicles run, awesome, so do 700 million other cars in the world. That was a stat from 04 as the study has not been done again and I'm sure you can assume it's an approximation, considering more than an additional 100 million have been produced since then, we can estimate closer to 780 million.
Now, more to the point, I think, just for the personal edification of all of us, we should find the source of the LA2/LA3 87-88 Turbo Coupes. I have heard and read from MANY sources the LA2's DO NOT boost fully in all forward gears. I don't think this is some shiznit 16.5 million sources would make up. So lets get to doing some research!
(Disclaimer *** I am not the original owner of the car so I cannot, at this time, Validate the LA3 ECM being factory as I am not pulling it out at 12:30am. That can wait for the next time I need to crack it open) The stock boost controller has been replaced as well.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 07, 2011, 03:11:31 AM
Post by: Beau on September 07, 2011, 03:11:31 AM
I agree, the LSx engines are pretty sweet, make good power with few mods, and are rather common nowadays.
However, I don not jump on many bandwagons...my pic was a joke, I've posted it here before, probably in response to one of Renzo's posts...I meant no personal insult to him..in fact, I kind of looked at it as a little ribbing....no harm, no foul.
I DO have a problem with some smartass punk firing off on me when all I've done was quote PROVEN, and factual info, pretty much verbatim from another member here....
So be it...life goes on. I think Renzo misread my quote where I stated a stock '87 TC wouldn't make full boost in all forward gears...
If I'm wrong, say so...don't assume my shiznit doesn't run because you're an arrogant rich kid with a shop full of hot shiznit.
You never know...I might just be the guy who's step-dad owns a Viper...
The point is...who gives a shiznit what the next guy has...we're here to share info and help one another.
So glocklimited or whatever your handle may be, if you've got a beef with me over what I said, then kiss my ass, hot stuff.
NOW, I'm done with it. :)
However, I don not jump on many bandwagons...my pic was a joke, I've posted it here before, probably in response to one of Renzo's posts...I meant no personal insult to him..in fact, I kind of looked at it as a little ribbing....no harm, no foul.
I DO have a problem with some smartass punk firing off on me when all I've done was quote PROVEN, and factual info, pretty much verbatim from another member here....
So be it...life goes on. I think Renzo misread my quote where I stated a stock '87 TC wouldn't make full boost in all forward gears...
If I'm wrong, say so...don't assume my shiznit doesn't run because you're an arrogant rich kid with a shop full of hot shiznit.
You never know...I might just be the guy who's step-dad owns a Viper...
The point is...who gives a shiznit what the next guy has...we're here to share info and help one another.
So glocklimited or whatever your handle may be, if you've got a beef with me over what I said, then kiss my ass, hot stuff.
NOW, I'm done with it. :)
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 07, 2011, 05:16:49 AM
Post by: Beau on September 07, 2011, 05:16:49 AM
I think my post was misunderstood...what I meant to say was that a stock and unaltered '87 TC will not make as much boost in all 5 forward gears as an '88, in regards to 3rd, 4th, and 5th, because of EEC differences...didn't mean to say that it made less boost in all gears than an '88.
Tom Renzo...if that was how you interpreted it, I'm sorry for not being more clear on my wording...they way I typed it, it looks like it could have been easy to misunderstand.
Tom Renzo...if that was how you interpreted it, I'm sorry for not being more clear on my wording...they way I typed it, it looks like it could have been easy to misunderstand.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 05:54:14 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 05:54:14 AM
Just one more thing and i will never post here again. THEY HAVE THE SAME ADVERTISES HP (87-88 confirmed by FORD SPECKS) AND THAT IS CONFIRMED ON MANY DYNO RUNS WE TESTED ! So why do they make the same HP if they boost LESS????
87-'88 TurboCoupe SPECIFICATIONS
Vehicle Type: Front-engine, rear-drive; 2-door 5-passenger sedan
Engine:
2.3L (2295cc, 140 cu in) 4 cylinder engine
2 valves per cylinder, overhead cam
190 HP with 5 speed trans, 150 HP with automatic trans
Torque 240 @ 3400
8:0:1 compression ratio
Bore and stroke: 3.780" x 3.126" (96.0mm X 79.2mm)
MPEFI injection
Cooling fan turns on at 221 degrees F
Turbocharger:
steering: 2.4 turns lock to lock, curb to curb circle = 39.4 ft, 15:0:1 on center rack and pinion
firm suspension settings kick in (in ~40ms) with 0.3g or more cornering or braking, when throttle is floored, when boost exceeds 10 psi,
or when speed exceeds 80 mph.
The 87 has the same suspension computer as the 88. So why would they design this feature in the 87 if it cant reach over 10LBS. ????????? !D'OH!!!!!
SOURCE of info FORD MOTOR COMPANY
As a side note i have actually worked with ford on the 2.3 engine. And i will admit everyone does not know it all. I have picked up valuable info on this site and i will be the first one to admit that. I was sivil and always try to be polite. But when someone posts that a TC does not boost bast second gear thats over the top, Then a person flames me as sayinf the guy has had more TC than you can believe or something to that effect. Believe me i have had a TUN OF TC in my life. I will also admit their are a lot of same year changes. And in fact the LA2 ECM only came in an 87. Reason being as far as i know the 87-88 is the only coupes with a large VAM and BROWN TOPS. Have a good day and i thank all that i helped or appreciated my experiance in the automotive business since 1900 when my grandfather started our business. Thanks
87-'88 TurboCoupe SPECIFICATIONS
Vehicle Type: Front-engine, rear-drive; 2-door 5-passenger sedan
Engine:
2.3L (2295cc, 140 cu in) 4 cylinder engine
2 valves per cylinder, overhead cam
190 HP with 5 speed trans, 150 HP with automatic trans
Torque 240 @ 3400
8:0:1 compression ratio
Bore and stroke: 3.780" x 3.126" (96.0mm X 79.2mm)
MPEFI injection
Cooling fan turns on at 221 degrees F
Turbocharger:
steering: 2.4 turns lock to lock, curb to curb circle = 39.4 ft, 15:0:1 on center rack and pinion
firm suspension settings kick in (in ~40ms) with 0.3g or more cornering or braking, when throttle is floored, when boost exceeds 10 psi,
or when speed exceeds 80 mph.
The 87 has the same suspension computer as the 88. So why would they design this feature in the 87 if it cant reach over 10LBS. ????????? !D'OH!!!!!
SOURCE of info FORD MOTOR COMPANY
As a side note i have actually worked with ford on the 2.3 engine. And i will admit everyone does not know it all. I have picked up valuable info on this site and i will be the first one to admit that. I was sivil and always try to be polite. But when someone posts that a TC does not boost bast second gear thats over the top, Then a person flames me as sayinf the guy has had more TC than you can believe or something to that effect. Believe me i have had a TUN OF TC in my life. I will also admit their are a lot of same year changes. And in fact the LA2 ECM only came in an 87. Reason being as far as i know the 87-88 is the only coupes with a large VAM and BROWN TOPS. Have a good day and i thank all that i helped or appreciated my experiance in the automotive business since 1900 when my grandfather started our business. Thanks
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 06:30:12 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 06:30:12 AM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;366950
I think my post was misunderstood...what I meant to say was that a stock and unaltered '87 TC will not make as much boost in all 5 forward gears as an '88, in regards to 3rd, 4th, and 5th, because of EEC differences...didn't mean to say that it made less boost in all gears than an '88.
Tom Renzo...if that was how you interpreted it, I'm sorry for not being more clear on my wording...they way I typed it, it looks like it could have been easy to misunderstand.
JUST FOR THE RECORD THE 87-88 MADE AND IS ADVERTISED AT THE SAME HP. Can you explain this if one makes LESS BOOST????? The FORD specks on both engines are IDENTICAL
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 08:47:17 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 08:47:17 AM
I'm glad I have a 5.0.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: cougarman on September 07, 2011, 09:14:34 AM
Post by: cougarman on September 07, 2011, 09:14:34 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;366953
I'm glad I have a 5.0.
Me too!!
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 07, 2011, 09:22:32 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 07, 2011, 09:22:32 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;366953
I'm glad I have a 5.0.
Yeah me too... The turbo fours with five speed are fun, but they ain't a V8...
As far as being rated less HP in '87 why would they be??? Even with the LB2 they still made 190Hp in 1st & 2nd...
The '88 dealer album has a note in it about the automatics being rated at 150Hp, I can scan & post that if someone wants to see...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 12:28:57 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 12:28:57 PM
So when you go through 1/2 gears then you drop off 40 HP?????????????? Fascinating. Clearly i posted fords advertised HP and it clearly shows the auto at 150. The speck sheet i posted is from ford records on HP and torque.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 12:31:36 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 12:31:36 PM
1987:
ENGINE APPLICATION VIN CODE HP @ RPM TORQUE(Ft.Lb. @RPM)
2.3 turbo Turbo Coupe (Automatic) W 150 @ 4400 200 @ 3000
2.3 turbo Turbo Coupe (5-speed) W 190 @ 4600 240 @ 3400
3.8 V6 T-Bird, Cougar 3 120 @ 3600 205 @ 1600
5.0 V8 T-Bird, Cougar, Mark VII F 150 @ 3200 270 @ 2000
5.0 V8 Mark VII LSC M 200 @ 4000 285 @ 3000
1988:
ENGINE APPLICATION VIN CODE HP @ RPM TORQUE(Ft.Lb. @RPM)
2.3 turbo Turbo Coupe (Automatic) W 150 @ 4400 200 @ 3000
2.3 turbo Turbo Coupe (5-speed) W 190 @ 4600 240 @ 3400
3.8 V6 T-Bird, Cougar 3 140 @ 3800 215 @ 2400
5.0 V8 T-Bird, Cougar F 155 @ 3400 265 @ 2200
5.0 V8 1988 - '92 Mark VII, LSC M 225 @ 4000 300 @ 3200
This is also from FORD SPECKS.
ENGINE APPLICATION VIN CODE HP @ RPM TORQUE(Ft.Lb. @RPM)
2.3 turbo Turbo Coupe (Automatic) W 150 @ 4400 200 @ 3000
2.3 turbo Turbo Coupe (5-speed) W 190 @ 4600 240 @ 3400
3.8 V6 T-Bird, Cougar 3 120 @ 3600 205 @ 1600
5.0 V8 T-Bird, Cougar, Mark VII F 150 @ 3200 270 @ 2000
5.0 V8 Mark VII LSC M 200 @ 4000 285 @ 3000
1988:
ENGINE APPLICATION VIN CODE HP @ RPM TORQUE(Ft.Lb. @RPM)
2.3 turbo Turbo Coupe (Automatic) W 150 @ 4400 200 @ 3000
2.3 turbo Turbo Coupe (5-speed) W 190 @ 4600 240 @ 3400
3.8 V6 T-Bird, Cougar 3 140 @ 3800 215 @ 2400
5.0 V8 T-Bird, Cougar F 155 @ 3400 265 @ 2200
5.0 V8 1988 - '92 Mark VII, LSC M 225 @ 4000 300 @ 3200
This is also from FORD SPECKS.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 12:42:55 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 12:42:55 PM
I'm STILL glad I have a 5.0.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 12:43:31 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 12:43:31 PM
I prefer the computers from 87-88 Thunderbird Turbo Coupes. This would include the LA3, LA2, LA, 8UA, and LB3 code ecu's. All of them are functionally interchangeable with each other as long as a 5 speed is used.
NOW does anyone know who wrote this???????????????
NOW does anyone know who wrote this???????????????
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 12:47:22 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 12:47:22 PM
Can someone tell me how the LA2 ECM KNOWS WHAT GEAR THE CAR IS IN ????????????????????????????????????????
The ECM would have to know this to switch down the boost 6 POINTS APP. Now i know i am not the smartest guy in the world but if this cant be explained away then how is the BOOST CUT????? As far as i know the 5 speed tranny in a 87-88 TC are identical and they only have 2 switches. So seems like we have a little problem HERE CORRECT?????
Switch one Reverse lights
Switch two neutral sensing---- Used for the CRUZE
The ECM would have to know this to switch down the boost 6 POINTS APP. Now i know i am not the smartest guy in the world but if this cant be explained away then how is the BOOST CUT????? As far as i know the 5 speed tranny in a 87-88 TC are identical and they only have 2 switches. So seems like we have a little problem HERE CORRECT?????
Switch one Reverse lights
Switch two neutral sensing---- Used for the CRUZE
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 12:59:50 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 12:59:50 PM
Girls, girls........you're both pretty, now move along ....
What is it with you guys and the constant pi$$ing contests. The drama should be on day time TV for the old ladies to watch or on children's shows about how NOT to act in kindergarten with your little friends.... "I'm right" ...."No, I'm right"...No, I'm right"......."Oh yeah, I'll just quit and go home and never post again because I'm mad at you".......
What is it with you guys and the constant pi$$ing contests. The drama should be on day time TV for the old ladies to watch or on children's shows about how NOT to act in kindergarten with your little friends.... "I'm right" ...."No, I'm right"...No, I'm right"......."Oh yeah, I'll just quit and go home and never post again because I'm mad at you".......
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 01:00:56 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 01:00:56 PM
By the way, did I mention I was glad I have a 5.0 in the Sport?
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 07, 2011, 01:29:04 PM
Post by: Mischief on September 07, 2011, 01:29:04 PM
I'm glad I don't have a 5.0. I like seeing the 5.0 cars in my rear view and the expression on their face when I tell them it's a almost stock 2.3 4 banger. Although, the 5.0 (4.9) is a nice engine, even if it's false advertisp00get. The ECM would not know what gear the car is in physically, but it could know from the vehicle speed sensor and the TPS/Cam position/crank position readings as well as the air speed density and the vacuum pressure. With all of these factors combined, you can figure out what gear a car is in by doing to backwards math. Just saying, that sounds like some backwards ass shiznit ford would do. "We're not going to put 6 buttons in their to tell the ecm what gear we're in, we will make it do ALGEBRA! HAHAHAHA! I'm glad my car is male, it would never be able to get the math right otherwise.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 07, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
Post by: Beau on September 07, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
:rollin:
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 07, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 07, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366976
Can someone tell me how the LA2 ECM KNOWS WHAT GEAR THE CAR IS IN ????????????????????????????????????????
The ECM would have to know this to switch down the boost 6 POINTS APP. Now i know i am not the smartest guy in the world but if this cant be explained away then how is the BOOST CUT????? As far as i know the 5 speed tranny in a 87-88 TC are identical and they only have 2 switches. So seems like we have a little problem HERE CORRECT?????
Switch one Reverse lights
Switch two neutral sensing---- Used for the CRUZE
LOL, you definitely have a valid point, no doubt something worth exploring farther...
The two 5-speed '87 I owned did full boost in all gears... One had a LA2 but the BCS was jumped out, the other was a late build with the LA3...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 07, 2011, 03:42:13 PM
Post by: Beau on September 07, 2011, 03:42:13 PM
Isn't the neutral wiring connected to the safety switch? I had to wire mine together to be able to start mine after the T5 swap...
Not saying it isn't for the cruise, as that would have to figure into the system somewhere as well...but I thought it was called the neutral safety switch?
Not saying it isn't for the cruise, as that would have to figure into the system somewhere as well...but I thought it was called the neutral safety switch?
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 06:14:32 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 06:14:32 PM
Ok now that i have your ATTENTION the ECM can not tell what gear the car is in and their fore cant limit BOOST. Now their are 4 switches involved with the transmission. Clutch has 2 and the tranny has 2. The clutch pedal contains the NSS and the Cruze contact switch. The Trannty has the neutral sensing switch and the reverse light switch. So the ECM does not have the capability of reducing BOOST from the above explanation. So i think we are at the root of the issue . Now please explain to me how the ECM knows what gear the tranny is in. Vinny this is not about My dad can beat up yours. We are discussing things that are relative. And in my case i take this stuff serious. It is what i do for a living.
The ECM would not know what gear the car is in physically, but it could know from the vehicle speed sensor and the TPS/Cam position/crank position readings as well as the air speed density and the vacuum pressure. With all of these factors combined, you can figure out what gear a car is in by doing to backwards math. Just saying, that sounds like some backwards ass shiznit ford would do. "
Not a CHANCE. I am going to say No way and i would like to know how these sensors could do that.
Vss so at a certain speed the boost cuts down????
Tps NG all that does is tell the ECM throttle angle
Cam sensor in A 2.3 t????????????????
CRANK SENSOR IN A 2.3 t????????????
Speed density In a 2.3 T ?????????????
Vacuume or pressure in a 2.3 T ????????????????????
Explain to me how this is possible with the sensors you say are in a 2.3 T ford?????????????
50 i know i have your attention now. You are definitely a sharp guy with facts and ability. My understanding of the difference in the two ECM'S is idle quality and some fuel trim parameters.
So i will pop in time to time and read some posts . If you have any comments on this issue i will chime in. But other than that if i want to get beat up i will go home and have my wife do it. Thanks. :D:D
The ECM would not know what gear the car is in physically, but it could know from the vehicle speed sensor and the TPS/Cam position/crank position readings as well as the air speed density and the vacuum pressure. With all of these factors combined, you can figure out what gear a car is in by doing to backwards math. Just saying, that sounds like some backwards ass shiznit ford would do. "
Not a CHANCE. I am going to say No way and i would like to know how these sensors could do that.
Vss so at a certain speed the boost cuts down????
Tps NG all that does is tell the ECM throttle angle
Cam sensor in A 2.3 t????????????????
CRANK SENSOR IN A 2.3 t????????????
Speed density In a 2.3 T ?????????????
Vacuume or pressure in a 2.3 T ????????????????????
Explain to me how this is possible with the sensors you say are in a 2.3 T ford?????????????
50 i know i have your attention now. You are definitely a sharp guy with facts and ability. My understanding of the difference in the two ECM'S is idle quality and some fuel trim parameters.
So i will pop in time to time and read some posts . If you have any comments on this issue i will chime in. But other than that if i want to get beat up i will go home and have my wife do it. Thanks. :D:D
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 06:35:43 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 06:35:43 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;366988
LOL, you definitely have a valid point, no doubt something worth exploring farther...
The two 5-speed '87 I owned did full boost in all gears... One had a LA2 but the BCS was jumped out, the other was a late build with the LA3...
Thanks 50 i appreciate your honesty. Have a good evening Sir
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 07, 2011, 07:02:32 PM
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 07, 2011, 07:02:32 PM
TOM Rezno, you need a valium, or something. Calm down, dude. It's the internet. Nobody has to win, and you don't need to get bent out of shape every time someone disagrees with you.
As for the ECM being able to figure out what gear the car's in - dunno about Ford, but I know old (late 90's) Saturn ECM's can tell what gear the car's in based on VSS and TACH signals. In fact if you swap a tranny from an SL2 into an SL1 (or vice versa) the cruise control won't work because the two transmissions have different final drive ratios and the computer will see an error between expected and actual VSS Vs TACH signals. It's not too hard to imagine Ford doing the same thing back in the late 80's, since Ford's EEC-IV was far and away more advanced than GM's ECM strategies (even GM engineers will admit this).
You don't need any special sensors at all to determine the gear the trans is in. You only need TACH and VSS, two inputs that all fuel injected engines already have. It's not algebra, it's simple math. In fact it's not even simple math, it's simply a matter of the ECM expecting to see a certain vehicle speed at a certain engine RPM. For example (and this is JUST an example, I am not bothering doing the math to find out actual numbers), 2500 RPM with a VSS of 10 MPH would indicate first gear. 2500 RPM @ 20 is going to mean second. 2500 RPM @ 30 is third. And so on. This would very easily be included in the ECM's coding. With a manual transmission every gear would have its own VSS to TACH ratio in any car by any manufactuer. And this technology most certainly existed in the 80's, because most 80's 5-speed cars had upshift lights for fuel economy. I don't remember if my old parts TC had one (didn't drive it on the road enough to notice) but my Cherokee did, and it had no gearshift position sensor. It went by engine RPM Vs VSS. My 2011 Sonata does the same. The upshift light comes on at certain speeds, whether going uphill or down (meaning vacuum doesn't matter). It expects an upshift from 3rd to 4th at 60 km/hr, 4th to 5th at 70 KM/hr, and 5th to 6th at 80 KM/HR and will turn that light on and keep it on until I shift, even if I'm going up a steep hill and gearing up would be impossible.
An automatic would be more difficult because of converter slippage, but even this can be used by the ECM to detect a malfunctioning lockup converter, or even a slipping transmission if there is both an input and output speed sensor (in fact this is a common problem with GM trucks - the check engine light comes on, a 700 series code is set meaning transmission problems, and the actual code will be something like "Transmission slipping detected" or "Transmission input/output speed implausibility". If the truck is under warranty it usually gets a new transmission. If it's not under warranty the customer usually learns to live with it because there are no perceivable drivability issues (they can not feel it slipping). Hyundai uses a similar fault detection strategy, which can result in some very interesting driving characteristics in a late model Elantra when the input speed sensor shiznits the bed (it's usually only a faulty sensor but you'd swear the transmission was screwed by the way it drives).
As for the ECM being able to figure out what gear the car's in - dunno about Ford, but I know old (late 90's) Saturn ECM's can tell what gear the car's in based on VSS and TACH signals. In fact if you swap a tranny from an SL2 into an SL1 (or vice versa) the cruise control won't work because the two transmissions have different final drive ratios and the computer will see an error between expected and actual VSS Vs TACH signals. It's not too hard to imagine Ford doing the same thing back in the late 80's, since Ford's EEC-IV was far and away more advanced than GM's ECM strategies (even GM engineers will admit this).
You don't need any special sensors at all to determine the gear the trans is in. You only need TACH and VSS, two inputs that all fuel injected engines already have. It's not algebra, it's simple math. In fact it's not even simple math, it's simply a matter of the ECM expecting to see a certain vehicle speed at a certain engine RPM. For example (and this is JUST an example, I am not bothering doing the math to find out actual numbers), 2500 RPM with a VSS of 10 MPH would indicate first gear. 2500 RPM @ 20 is going to mean second. 2500 RPM @ 30 is third. And so on. This would very easily be included in the ECM's coding. With a manual transmission every gear would have its own VSS to TACH ratio in any car by any manufactuer. And this technology most certainly existed in the 80's, because most 80's 5-speed cars had upshift lights for fuel economy. I don't remember if my old parts TC had one (didn't drive it on the road enough to notice) but my Cherokee did, and it had no gearshift position sensor. It went by engine RPM Vs VSS. My 2011 Sonata does the same. The upshift light comes on at certain speeds, whether going uphill or down (meaning vacuum doesn't matter). It expects an upshift from 3rd to 4th at 60 km/hr, 4th to 5th at 70 KM/hr, and 5th to 6th at 80 KM/HR and will turn that light on and keep it on until I shift, even if I'm going up a steep hill and gearing up would be impossible.
An automatic would be more difficult because of converter slippage, but even this can be used by the ECM to detect a malfunctioning lockup converter, or even a slipping transmission if there is both an input and output speed sensor (in fact this is a common problem with GM trucks - the check engine light comes on, a 700 series code is set meaning transmission problems, and the actual code will be something like "Transmission slipping detected" or "Transmission input/output speed implausibility". If the truck is under warranty it usually gets a new transmission. If it's not under warranty the customer usually learns to live with it because there are no perceivable drivability issues (they can not feel it slipping). Hyundai uses a similar fault detection strategy, which can result in some very interesting driving characteristics in a late model Elantra when the input speed sensor shiznits the bed (it's usually only a faulty sensor but you'd swear the transmission was screwed by the way it drives).
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: RoyLPita on September 07, 2011, 07:31:23 PM
Post by: RoyLPita on September 07, 2011, 07:31:23 PM
Quote from: hypostang;366900
Really ???????????........... again with this
"Also, Turbo coupes in '87 only had boost in 1st and 2nd gear with the manual transmission. '88 had boost in all 5 gears. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"this was posted by a member named "ROYLPITA" not TurboCoupe50 and it is factually incorrect "
Everything Tom and Turbocoupe50 posted is not incorrect ,
Tom Jr you do not need to come in here and defend your father every time someone disagrees with him , He is a big boy with great tech info and is appreciated by most people on this forum ...You just come across as an ass when you start bragging . Granted Beau could try being less of an ass to Tom too and there would be less of this nonsense going on
Oops. Thanx for showing me that I needed to proof read and correct my errors. Just disregard that sentence, please.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: RoyLPita on September 07, 2011, 07:36:01 PM
Post by: RoyLPita on September 07, 2011, 07:36:01 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366975
I prefer the computers from 87-88 Thunderbird Turbo Coupes. This would include the LA3, LA2, LA, 8UA, and LB3 code ecu's. All of them are functionally interchangeable with each other as long as a 5 speed is used.
NOW does anyone know who wrote this???????????????
Which of the other PCMs have to do with California emissions or Export?
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 07:50:42 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 07:50:42 PM
O.K., I forgot my tape measure.....who peed further than the other?
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 07:51:45 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 07:51:45 PM
So if i re-gear a TC to 4.11 gears the boost only comes on full in First gear????? Dude you are not comparing the same type of ECM. The LA2 AND LA3 are about the DUMBEST ECM ford ever made. I am not going into ECM shifted AUTO TRANNYS. That is apples and oranges. As the matter of fact the last ASE course i passed went into this and i passed the test. So what you are talking about is totally different. If the boost was controlled by VSS and RPM it would go nuts because of the different PARAMETERS. The LA 2 does not get any info from the TRANNY for boost and it does not control it by those inputs. Even the early TC had full boost in all forward gears. Why would ford limit the boost in the upper gears. That makes absolutely no SENSE and you KNOW THAT. So it seems like everyone is beating this to death. Just admit the quote that an 87 TC only full boosts in 1/2 is not true. By the way the early coupes full boost in all gears also. So why would Ford do this to only one year. It makes NO SENSE. By the way maybe you should tell the poster that the sensors he posted are not even in the 2.3 T ford. Only the TPS and VSS. Also the ride computer only works above 10 LBS of boost in auto mode. So i guess Ford does not want it to work after second gear. Thank You
Just curious what does the ECM do when the AUTO TRANNY DOWN SHIFTS??????????????????? Totally confuses it i would think if it determines what you posted. Basically i am not an auto tranny guy and the first to admit that. But the modern trannys are shifted by the ECM. The manual trannys are shifted by the driver. The ecm on a computer controlled auto tranny knows when it is in any gear because it controls that. The T5 transmission does not have any outputs for gear selection. The shift light in most modern cars today are a combination of Vacuum RPM and Speed. Thats why when you climb a hill the shift light allows you to stay in a lower gear without it lighting. Either way i cant win this so i am going to throw in the TOWEL. Thanks for listening and it is was a pleasure. By the way i do not need a VALIUM. I pride my self and my business with the knowledge of my staff and myself. Have a good evening
Just curious what does the ECM do when the AUTO TRANNY DOWN SHIFTS??????????????????? Totally confuses it i would think if it determines what you posted. Basically i am not an auto tranny guy and the first to admit that. But the modern trannys are shifted by the ECM. The manual trannys are shifted by the driver. The ecm on a computer controlled auto tranny knows when it is in any gear because it controls that. The T5 transmission does not have any outputs for gear selection. The shift light in most modern cars today are a combination of Vacuum RPM and Speed. Thats why when you climb a hill the shift light allows you to stay in a lower gear without it lighting. Either way i cant win this so i am going to throw in the TOWEL. Thanks for listening and it is was a pleasure. By the way i do not need a VALIUM. I pride my self and my business with the knowledge of my staff and myself. Have a good evening
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 07, 2011, 09:13:33 PM
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 07, 2011, 09:13:33 PM
I'm not saying which side is "right" in this stupid, asinine, "you're taking this way too personally" argument. I'm merely pointing out that not only is it possible for the computer to determine which gear the car is in, but that it's also extremely simple. And as I pointed out, in my brand new, thoroughly modern Hyundai Sonata the upshift light is determined by two things and two things only: Engine RPM and VSS. Vacuum is not a parameter. The car will tell me to upshift from 5th to 6th at exactly 80 KM/HR (~50 MPH) regardless of engine load. Not only that, but if I'm going up a steep hill in 4th, it will tell me to upshift to 6th (not 5th) at exactly 80 km/hr. If I'm ciasting down an hill and using engine braking by shifting down into 5th it will tell me to upshift into 6th, even though I'm slowing down. Because it knows what gear I'm in. It knows the engine RPM and it knows the VSS. Doesn't give a rat's ringpiece about vacuum. It just knows that it wants 6th at 80 km/hr.
Considering that the ECM tells the auto tranny when to downshift (the A4LD's shifts are computer controlled) I think it would pretty much know what to do when it downshifts. But even if it didn't, the dumbest of ECMs can think fast enough to realize a sudden increase in RPM combined with no increase in VSS (plus a stab at the TPS) means it downshifted. Plus, you know, most automatics DO have a gear position sensor, unlike most manuals.
Swapping 4:11 gears into a TC should have no effect whatsoever on the ECM, at least if you do it properly, because doing it properly means replacing the VSS gear with one calibrated for the new gears. VSS vs RPM will remain the same, even if the actual road speed changes.
As for these "Mystery sensors" you refer to: There is a cam position sensor on a 2.3. It's built into the distributor pickup. Kinda necessary for sequential fuel injection, because without it the ECM wouldn't know which injector to fire. Same goes for the crank position sensor (CPS and CMS are combined in this application). Don't believe me? Cut the TACH or "PIP" signal wire from the distributor to the EEC-IV computer and see how well your 2.3 runs. All of which is moot, because I believe the poster of that statement meant camshaft and crankshaft speed (IE "RPM"), not position.
The speed density and vacuum sensors you refer to do not exist because their parameters are instead determined by the VAM (or the MAF in a mass airflow car). The computer works out the vacuum and air density by the readings it takes in from the VAM. In other words, the computer "computes". It's just what they do... And again, I think the poster was going for "the amount of air entering the engine and the engine's load", although they may have worded it incorrectly. Which is also moot, because an ECM does not need this parameter to determine the gear the car is in. Engine speed and VSS are it.
Considering that the ECM tells the auto tranny when to downshift (the A4LD's shifts are computer controlled) I think it would pretty much know what to do when it downshifts. But even if it didn't, the dumbest of ECMs can think fast enough to realize a sudden increase in RPM combined with no increase in VSS (plus a stab at the TPS) means it downshifted. Plus, you know, most automatics DO have a gear position sensor, unlike most manuals.
Swapping 4:11 gears into a TC should have no effect whatsoever on the ECM, at least if you do it properly, because doing it properly means replacing the VSS gear with one calibrated for the new gears. VSS vs RPM will remain the same, even if the actual road speed changes.
As for these "Mystery sensors" you refer to: There is a cam position sensor on a 2.3. It's built into the distributor pickup. Kinda necessary for sequential fuel injection, because without it the ECM wouldn't know which injector to fire. Same goes for the crank position sensor (CPS and CMS are combined in this application). Don't believe me? Cut the TACH or "PIP" signal wire from the distributor to the EEC-IV computer and see how well your 2.3 runs. All of which is moot, because I believe the poster of that statement meant camshaft and crankshaft speed (IE "RPM"), not position.
The speed density and vacuum sensors you refer to do not exist because their parameters are instead determined by the VAM (or the MAF in a mass airflow car). The computer works out the vacuum and air density by the readings it takes in from the VAM. In other words, the computer "computes". It's just what they do... And again, I think the poster was going for "the amount of air entering the engine and the engine's load", although they may have worded it incorrectly. Which is also moot, because an ECM does not need this parameter to determine the gear the car is in. Engine speed and VSS are it.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 09:42:12 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 09:42:12 PM
The TC does not have SEQUENTIAL INJECTION and i am well aware of what the PIP DOES. The TC has GROUPED INJECTION. So your car is so well designed it allows the engine to lug in a gear while climbing a HILL. Even a car like a HYUNDAI would not do that.Believe what you want i do not care and my coupes run great with full boost in all forward gears. I know that if you change the SPEEDO gear the speedometer is re-calibrated. But wouldn't it be a simple thing to do to increase boost. Change the SPEEDO GEAR that was my point. So if the speed versus RPM is used then what if you lug the engine down and then what would the BOOST do??? Your theory does not pertain to the TC LA2. It does not adjust BOOST with RPM OR VSS.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 10:09:23 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 10:09:23 PM
The on board computer makes the "SHIFT" light work. This computer knows how fast the engine is going (RPM) and how hard it is working (MAP), how fast the car is going (VSS), and how far the accelerator is pressed down (TPS). It uses this information 10 times every second to decide if you could get better fuel economy by shifting to the next higher gear.
Source SAE and AERA. And GM tech.
Source SAE and AERA. And GM tech.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 10:12:21 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 10:12:21 PM
PIP
The computer takes the signal and the pulse rate and determines the rpm. The computer sends a signal to the control module when to fire the coil. The control module automatically controls the dwell for sufficient saturation of the coil windings to give the proper spark duration given the rpm in real time without creating undue heat. It also monitors irregular or missed firing counts and will set a code if a failure is imminent.
I know the PIP is used as a positioned reference. All electronic controlled engines have to know where TDC is or equivalent. Lets end this on a friendly bases. Tempers are running rather HIGH. But some posters need some social skills. AS some may think i might. Have a good evening
The computer takes the signal and the pulse rate and determines the rpm. The computer sends a signal to the control module when to fire the coil. The control module automatically controls the dwell for sufficient saturation of the coil windings to give the proper spark duration given the rpm in real time without creating undue heat. It also monitors irregular or missed firing counts and will set a code if a failure is imminent.
I know the PIP is used as a positioned reference. All electronic controlled engines have to know where TDC is or equivalent. Lets end this on a friendly bases. Tempers are running rather HIGH. But some posters need some social skills. AS some may think i might. Have a good evening
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 10:41:02 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 07, 2011, 10:41:02 PM
You guys are NOT going to believe this !!!! I am SO glad I have a 5.0 in the Sport.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: FLSTCI71 on September 07, 2011, 10:45:39 PM
Post by: FLSTCI71 on September 07, 2011, 10:45:39 PM
Okay, just so I have this all straight, the main differences between 87 and 88 Birds are that LSx’s are awesome motors, Hyundai Sonata shift lights use RPM & VSS, TC ECMs don’t know what gear they're in and Vinnie is glad he has a 5.0 in the Sport.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: daminc on September 07, 2011, 10:48:12 PM
Post by: daminc on September 07, 2011, 10:48:12 PM
Quote from: FLSTCI71;367032
Okay, just so I have this all straight, the main differences between 87 and 88 Birds are that LSx’s are awesome motors, Hyundai Sonata shift lights use RPM & VSS, TC ECMs don’t know what gear they're in and Vinnie is glad he has a 5.0 in the Sport.
You nailed it Mike...lol
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 10:53:34 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 07, 2011, 10:53:34 PM
Well i am glad i have this motor in my mustang and removed the 302. Sorry VINNIE
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Picture006.jpg
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Picture006.jpg
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 08, 2011, 12:49:40 AM
Post by: Mischief on September 08, 2011, 12:49:40 AM
I'm well aware that there is no Cam sensor, those were just examples of how a ECM could detect gear. To be more accurate, the TPC COULD play in the boost with the tranny speed sensor. It would take nothing more than setting up a table for min/max operating speeds/rpms relative for gears and the throttle position to give the demand of air intake. Really the TPS is kind of a null point really considering the vacuum will do all of the work for you on that front. All it would essentially take is "Limit boost from x speed to x speed" and "Boost 16lbs from x speed to x speed" It's not rocket science to figure out that you can't break 80 in second gear in a tc and you won't be in Third taking off from a light unless you simply screwed up your shift. It's not possible for the ECM to know what gear it's in, yes, is it possible for it to make a pretty accurate guess, you're right it is. Based off speed and RPMs it could tell precisely what gear it's in. Quick, who knows what 28mph at 3500 rpm's is?! Can you guess?! Holy shiznit I believe it's second gear. Last time I checked 3500 rpms in Third would be around 38mph. Now, if I'm doing my numbers right, so far, and I am, then I believe with a pen and paper, if a human can do it, a computer sure as hell can. BTW, these numbers are based on stock T5 Gears with 3.55 final drive and 155/55/16's. Quick, who can tell me 33mph at 2500 rpms, what gear is that?!
My point is not saying you're wrong about if the LA2 did or did not restrict the boost. My point, is that it COULD know what gear it is with a very simple and light weight calculation. It's physics, that's all. Speed+RPM=Gear. Granted, this would only be particularly accurate for a fully stock configuration, but that's all that little boost solenoid is for, stock configuration, that is. So I resend my earlier statement that I wasted mentioning other sensors that we all well know do not exist on the TC and was made out of nothing more than a point of reference.
My point is not saying you're wrong about if the LA2 did or did not restrict the boost. My point, is that it COULD know what gear it is with a very simple and light weight calculation. It's physics, that's all. Speed+RPM=Gear. Granted, this would only be particularly accurate for a fully stock configuration, but that's all that little boost solenoid is for, stock configuration, that is. So I resend my earlier statement that I wasted mentioning other sensors that we all well know do not exist on the TC and was made out of nothing more than a point of reference.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 08, 2011, 12:55:20 AM
Post by: Mischief on September 08, 2011, 12:55:20 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367034
Well i am glad i have this motor in my mustang and removed the 302. Sorry VINNIE
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Picture006.jpg
Btw Tom, that's quite nice. Get vid's of it please. I would like to see/hear that.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: shame302 on September 08, 2011, 12:55:35 AM
Post by: shame302 on September 08, 2011, 12:55:35 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367013
words, words, Why would ford limit the boost in the upper gears. That makes absolutely no SENSE and you KNOW THAT. words,words,words, i'm a douche, words, words.
As Carm stated, it would be chickin' greezy to do (limit boost in X gear)
In any case, who gives a rats @$$. Anybody that cares would mod it anyway.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367022
Believe what you want i do not care
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366880
Just for the record the 87 does not boost past second gear!!!!! That statement is the silliest thing i have ever read.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366880
SEE YOU.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366882
Once again SEE YOU.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366882
I can feel the tension and i will take it and say BYE BYE.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366882
Thank you and good bye
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366906
I will move ON.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;366951
Just one more thing and i will never post here again.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367000
So i will pop in time to time and read some posts . If you have any comments on this issue i will chime in. But other than that if i want to get beat up i will go home and have my wife do it. Thanks. :D:D
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367013
Either way i cant win this so i am going to throw in the TOWEL.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367027
Lets end this on a friendly bases. Tempers are running rather HIGH. But some posters need some social skills. AS some may think i might. Have a good evening
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 08, 2011, 02:10:31 AM
Post by: Beau on September 08, 2011, 02:10:31 AM
Epic. thread.
I laughed so hard at all the quotes...
I laughed so hard at all the quotes...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: budnscrap on September 08, 2011, 02:22:19 AM
Post by: budnscrap on September 08, 2011, 02:22:19 AM
I posted this!!! Sorry guys I skipped page 6-8 of the comments..For the most part it has been educational. Thanks to almost all who took part in the replies! LOL
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 08, 2011, 06:23:21 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 08, 2011, 06:23:21 AM
I'm going to let you off the hook and say you mis-read someone here. Nobody said the car didn't boost past 2nd gear. They said it's reduced/limited it in the upper gears.
Also, Turbo coupes in '87 only had boost in 1st and 2nd gear with the manual transmission. '88 had boost in all 5 gears.
[COLOR="royalblue"]??????????????????????????[/COLOR]
PLEASE SPARE ME WITH I AM GOING TO LET YOU OFF THE HOOK BS. I TAKE THIS STUFF AS SERIOUS AS A HEART ATTACK. Now it is time to go to work I HAVE CARS TO BUILD AND TUNE.
Also, Turbo coupes in '87 only had boost in 1st and 2nd gear with the manual transmission. '88 had boost in all 5 gears.
[COLOR="royalblue"]??????????????????????????[/COLOR]
PLEASE SPARE ME WITH I AM GOING TO LET YOU OFF THE HOOK BS. I TAKE THIS STUFF AS SERIOUS AS A HEART ATTACK. Now it is time to go to work I HAVE CARS TO BUILD AND TUNE.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 06:40:45 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 06:40:45 AM
No argument from me.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 08, 2011, 08:52:59 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 08, 2011, 08:52:59 AM
Here's basically the same discussion from a thread over on NATO, appears the boost limit in upper gears is correct for a '87 with LA2 EEC...
Quote
Originally posted by Hawk:
"Later LA3 allowed full boost in all gears"
Jeff,
That's an old wives tale. Think about it, how does the computer know which gear you are in with the T5? There is no feed back. That myth got started because of the article in Car& Driver or Motor Trend where someone from Ford was quoted saying such nonsense.
Hawk
Quote
Originally posted by sbhjr44:
Well I get full boost in all 5 gears in 88 and my 87 gets 15 psi in 1st and 2nd and 10psi in 3rd, 4th and 5th gear. If it is a old wives tale then tell me how come my TC's seem to do as told above?
Santana
Quote
Originally posted by Jeff K:QuoteOriginally posted by Pete D:Correct.... the PCM can determine tranny gear from looking at VSS vs RPM.
Hawk, My experience says it's true, and I had side by side 88 cars that bore it out. I believe the EEC can determine gear by rpm, and speed via the speed sensor
Quote
Originally posted by Hawk:
Cool, good explanation. The VSS is the feed back loop that seemed to be missing.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: shame302 on September 08, 2011, 09:33:01 AM
Post by: shame302 on September 08, 2011, 09:33:01 AM
Oh, Look at that you're right ;0) perhaps he meant "full" boost. Regardless, the statement was corrected and you still felt the need to do your thing.
btw, we have a quote feature. Most web forums do. Learn to use it.
Obviously.
Enjoy your day:flip:
btw, we have a quote feature. Most web forums do. Learn to use it.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367046
I TAKE THIS STUFF AS SERIOUS AS A HEART ATTACK.
Obviously.
Enjoy your day:flip:
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: RunninWild on September 08, 2011, 10:34:47 AM
Post by: RunninWild on September 08, 2011, 10:34:47 AM
I thought threads like this got shut down when they got this out of hand...? I remember it did when we had the thread about the mustang forum..
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: RoyLPita on September 08, 2011, 10:54:32 AM
Post by: RoyLPita on September 08, 2011, 10:54:32 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367046
I'm going to let you off the hook and say you mis-read someone here. Nobody said the car didn't boost past 2nd gear. They said it's reduced/limited it in the upper gears.
Also, Turbo coupes in '87 only had boost in 1st and 2nd gear with the manual transmission. '88 had boost in all 5 gears.
[COLOR="royalblue"]??????????????????????????[/COLOR]
PLEASE SPARE ME WITH I AM GOING TO LET YOU OFF THE HOOK BS. I TAKE THIS STUFF AS SERIOUS AS A HEART ATTACK. Now it is time to go to work I HAVE CARS TO BUILD AND TUNE.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/DSCF0251.jpg
My apologies to all for igniting a firestorm of controversy. I will stay with the simplicity of HO 5.0 V8 fuel injection like Vinnie and stay out of 2.3 Boost.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: hypostang on September 08, 2011, 11:00:20 AM
Post by: hypostang on September 08, 2011, 11:00:20 AM
LMAO this is great page after page, all because of one missed *F* word in one post ...... "87 only had *"FULL*" boost in 1st and 2nd gear"
I have seen less B.S. when a certain other four letter *F* word was actually used in a thread .
I have seen less B.S. when a certain other four letter *F* word was actually used in a thread .
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: jangus on September 08, 2011, 11:55:59 AM
Post by: jangus on September 08, 2011, 11:55:59 AM
Quote from: RoyLPita;367064
My apologies to all for igniting a firestorm of controversy. I will stay with the simplicity of HO 5.0 V8 fuel injection like Vinnie and stay out of 2.3 Boost.
It's 8 page long threads like this that make the 2.3T seem so "complicated" and "troublesome". It's a freakin' four cylinder with a small compressor attached to it people. At the end of the day, it's no more complicated than everyones "simple" injected 5.slow.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: RunninWild on September 08, 2011, 12:53:13 PM
Post by: RunninWild on September 08, 2011, 12:53:13 PM
Quote from: hypostang;367066
LMAO this is great page after page, all because of one missed *F* word in one post ...... "87 only had *"FULL*" boost in 1st and 2nd gear"
I have seen less B.S. when a certain other four letter *F* word was actually used in a thread .
I guess it's what happens when the maturity level rivals that of a 3 yr old.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 08, 2011, 02:29:51 PM
Post by: Beau on September 08, 2011, 02:29:51 PM
Yeah...lot of stubbornness and unwillingness to accept the truth here.
Probably scared the OP off, too.
Some like 2.3 engines, some like the 5.0 (myself included). Doesn't mean I feel the urge to imply it's better than 2.3 or LSx or hemis or whatever.
FACT: 100% stock 1987 TurboCoupes will not make as much boost in the upper three forward gears as an '88 will.
It's pretty accepted that the VSS is the leading contributor to the EEC's knowledge of vehicle speed and engine RPM, thusly knowing when to limit the boost in those three gears.
If your '87 TC (this is to Tom Renzo, btw) makes the full 15psi in ALL the gears, then A: it's not as stock as you say, B: you're a liar, or C: it has a very late build date, and does have the LA3 EEC.
My guess is that it has an LA3....also, what's the build date on the door jamb?
I'm not saying you're lying...you do know your way around these cars from reading your posts...but there has to be a good reason why your '87 makes the full boost...not picking on you, and striving to be civil here.
Now...bluntly...as I said, you've shared some good info, and no doubt you've been turning bolts and nuts far longer than I've been alive (I'm 34). But when someone who's correct in their info (or several someones, in this instance) refute your misinformation with proven facts, why do you get mad and say you're leaving? Seems a little childish to me.
I respect the capabilities and power of the LSx engines, however, they are just not arousing to me. Besides, me and a buddy are looking at turbo kits. For what your kid mentioned cost-wise, I could have a TT 5.0 that would knock the socks off of most cam-only LS2 or-3 engines...and for a hell of a lot less.
Granted, I'd have to have the required MAF setup, but on an otherwise stock engine, it would still make more power with reliability than an LS2.
But anyway, this thread was started about the basic differences between an '87 and an '88 Thunderbird...and even more ironic, the OP has a 5.0 car. I doubt seriously he gives a fat rat's ringpiece (Thanks Carm!) about boost in this gear, that gear, or not at all.
So yeah..
You build yours, I'll build mine, and life will go on. I promise.
Probably scared the OP off, too.
Some like 2.3 engines, some like the 5.0 (myself included). Doesn't mean I feel the urge to imply it's better than 2.3 or LSx or hemis or whatever.
FACT: 100% stock 1987 TurboCoupes will not make as much boost in the upper three forward gears as an '88 will.
It's pretty accepted that the VSS is the leading contributor to the EEC's knowledge of vehicle speed and engine RPM, thusly knowing when to limit the boost in those three gears.
If your '87 TC (this is to Tom Renzo, btw) makes the full 15psi in ALL the gears, then A: it's not as stock as you say, B: you're a liar, or C: it has a very late build date, and does have the LA3 EEC.
My guess is that it has an LA3....also, what's the build date on the door jamb?
I'm not saying you're lying...you do know your way around these cars from reading your posts...but there has to be a good reason why your '87 makes the full boost...not picking on you, and striving to be civil here.
Now...bluntly...as I said, you've shared some good info, and no doubt you've been turning bolts and nuts far longer than I've been alive (I'm 34). But when someone who's correct in their info (or several someones, in this instance) refute your misinformation with proven facts, why do you get mad and say you're leaving? Seems a little childish to me.
I respect the capabilities and power of the LSx engines, however, they are just not arousing to me. Besides, me and a buddy are looking at turbo kits. For what your kid mentioned cost-wise, I could have a TT 5.0 that would knock the socks off of most cam-only LS2 or-3 engines...and for a hell of a lot less.
Granted, I'd have to have the required MAF setup, but on an otherwise stock engine, it would still make more power with reliability than an LS2.
But anyway, this thread was started about the basic differences between an '87 and an '88 Thunderbird...and even more ironic, the OP has a 5.0 car. I doubt seriously he gives a fat rat's ringpiece (Thanks Carm!) about boost in this gear, that gear, or not at all.
So yeah..
You build yours, I'll build mine, and life will go on. I promise.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 08, 2011, 07:04:59 PM
Post by: Mischief on September 08, 2011, 07:04:59 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;367076
Yeah...lot of stubbornness and unwillingness to accept the truth here.
Probably scared the OP off, too.
Some like 2.3 engines, some like the 5.0 (myself included). Doesn't mean I feel the urge to imply it's better than 2.3 or LSx or hemis or whatever.
FACT: 100% stock 1987 TurboCoupes will not make as much boost in the upper three forward gears as an '88 will.
It's pretty accepted that the VSS is the leading contributor to the EEC's knowledge of vehicle speed and engine RPM, thusly knowing when to limit the boost in those three gears.
If your '87 TC (this is to Tom Renzo, btw) makes the full 15psi in ALL the gears, then A: it's not as stock as you say, B: you're a liar, or C: it has a very late build date, and does have the LA3 EEC.
My guess is that it has an LA3....also, what's the build date on the door jamb?
I'm not saying you're lying...you do know your way around these cars from reading your posts...but there has to be a good reason why your '87 makes the full boost...not picking on you, and striving to be civil here.
Now...bluntly...as I said, you've shared some good info, and no doubt you've been turning bolts and nuts far longer than I've been alive (I'm 34). But when someone who's correct in their info (or several someones, in this instance) refute your misinformation with proven facts, why do you get mad and say you're leaving? Seems a little childish to me.
I respect the capabilities and power of the LSx engines, however, they are just not arousing to me. Besides, me and a buddy are looking at turbo kits. For what your kid mentioned cost-wise, I could have a TT 5.0 that would knock the socks off of most cam-only LS2 or-3 engines...and for a hell of a lot less.
Granted, I'd have to have the required MAF setup, but on an otherwise stock engine, it would still make more power with reliability than an LS2.
But anyway, this thread was started about the basic differences between an '87 and an '88 Thunderbird...and even more ironic, the OP has a 5.0 car. I doubt seriously he gives a fat rat's ringpiece (Thanks Carm!) about boost in this gear, that gear, or not at all.
So yeah..
You build yours, I'll build mine, and life will go on. I promise.
Well said. I agree with you entirely. I personally have always been more of a 351 Jasper kind of guy. The 302 just never did it for me and the LSx engines are just to expensive for the output.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 08:38:39 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 08:38:39 PM
This may come as a surprise to you guys, but I am happy to have a 5.0 in the Sport.
Is it more or less complicated than the turbo-4? Probably not, but, I don't think I can handle 8, 9, or more pages of thread every time I ask a question..
Also, my "5-slow" is probably the absolute slowest car on this forum..... but I still like it.
Is it more or less complicated than the turbo-4? Probably not, but, I don't think I can handle 8, 9, or more pages of thread every time I ask a question..
Also, my "5-slow" is probably the absolute slowest car on this forum..... but I still like it.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: dragon574444 on September 08, 2011, 08:45:22 PM
Post by: dragon574444 on September 08, 2011, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367089
This may come as a surprise to you guys, but I am happy to have a 5.0 in the Sport.
Is it more or less complicated than the turbo-4? Probably not, but, I don't think I can handle 8, 9, or more pages of thread every time I ask a question..
Also, my "5-slow" is probably the absolute slowest car on this forum..... but I still like it.
You sir, have made this entire thread worth reading. :rollin:
But I disagree, my 5.slow is by far the slowest one here.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 08, 2011, 08:51:14 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 08, 2011, 08:51:14 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367089
This may come as a surprise to you guys, but I am happy to have a 5.0 in the Sport.
Is it more or less complicated than the turbo-4? Probably not, but, I don't think I can handle 8, 9, or more pages of thread every time I ask a question..
Also, my "5-slow" is probably the absolute slowest car on this forum..... but I still like it.
I seriously doubt that... If you can get traction, you'd no doubt hand a mildly modified 2.3T it's ass(you may need to get a new clutch pedal cover :giggle:)... For the most part, few fast Turbo Coupes are anywhere near their original weight...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 08:53:47 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 08:53:47 PM
Thanks Tom. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy.LOL. The Sport does have traction issues, but after paint, I'm going to look into a set of drag radials for the fun stuff.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 08, 2011, 08:54:20 PM
Post by: Beau on September 08, 2011, 08:54:20 PM
I KNOW I have the slowest 5.0 here....and why?
Because it's all stock! Does it bother me? Nope.
More to life than numbers on a dyno or a drag slip.
I'm not knocking the drag cars OR the folks that build(t) them...lots of work and money spent to do it.
I'd rather run some auto-x track than anything...which is why mine getting the mods I'm planning...in case I ever try to get into it.
Because it's all stock! Does it bother me? Nope.
More to life than numbers on a dyno or a drag slip.
I'm not knocking the drag cars OR the folks that build(t) them...lots of work and money spent to do it.
I'd rather run some auto-x track than anything...which is why mine getting the mods I'm planning...in case I ever try to get into it.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 09:00:22 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 09:00:22 PM
I just like showing off those pretty Thunderbird tail lights. Everyone should see how nice they are. I must admit, getting passed like I was standing still by that Prius was a little embarrassing, but you can't win them all.
Here's my turbo-4..............minus the turbo..........and the "4"..... The "5-slow"....BOW DOWN all you Turbo guys !!!!...
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc205/Vinnietbird/100_1732.jpg)
Here's my turbo-4..............minus the turbo..........and the "4"..... The "5-slow"....BOW DOWN all you Turbo guys !!!!...
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc205/Vinnietbird/100_1732.jpg)
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 08, 2011, 09:28:26 PM
Post by: Beau on September 08, 2011, 09:28:26 PM
Vinnie, that ain't no 5.SLOW...it's a 5.GO, lol
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 09:29:55 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 08, 2011, 09:29:55 PM
All smoke and mirrors. Just shiny, and that doesn't make the car any quicker. It just shines.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: jangus on September 08, 2011, 10:21:19 PM
Post by: jangus on September 08, 2011, 10:21:19 PM
All depends on your definition of "mildly modified". I don't know about what it's like on the east coast, but out here, all I hear is the same from the 5.0 crowd. Very few of them realize that's it not as easy as they think to squeeze 300rwhp out of a naturally aspirated 302. I'ts awesome hearing all the excuses on open chassis dyno day. I can't wait to get the 2.3T Stang done for next spring.
My TC will always be my driver. I don't plan on getting to crazy with it, but it will have more than 300rwhp. That's the benchmark to make the TC relavant in todays world.
My TC will always be my driver. I don't plan on getting to crazy with it, but it will have more than 300rwhp. That's the benchmark to make the TC relavant in todays world.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: daminc on September 08, 2011, 10:37:23 PM
Post by: daminc on September 08, 2011, 10:37:23 PM
You guys are talkin slow... try a stock 5.0 cfi in a vert... I think I win the contest, lol
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: hypostang on September 08, 2011, 10:51:07 PM
Post by: hypostang on September 08, 2011, 10:51:07 PM
Well if we are going to have a peeing contest about who has the slowest 5.0 ..I'm pretty sure I got all of ya beat
My 4100 lb Towncar with its single exhaust and 125k miles I think might be the slowest
My 4100 lb Towncar with its single exhaust and 125k miles I think might be the slowest
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: daminc on September 08, 2011, 11:05:47 PM
Post by: daminc on September 08, 2011, 11:05:47 PM
OK...you may be the winner....or loser in our case...lol
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 09, 2011, 12:28:36 AM
Post by: Beau on September 09, 2011, 12:28:36 AM
I can make mine even slower...by unhooking 3 plug wires, and disconnecting my SPOUT connector, lol
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 09:05:47 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 09:05:47 AM
I would never race a 2.3 equipped Ford. I hate to be wickedly embarrassed. So, I stay away from fights the Sport just have no chance of winning. Plus, it barely makes enough torque to turn the big rear tires. I put the TC hood and front part on the Sport so everyone would think I have a Turbo Coupe. It gets really shameful having to say I have one of the Sport model Thunderbirds. I do all I can to mask the embarrassment that the 5.0 and "Sport" title bring to my car. i am turning over a new leaf today. From now on....GO TURBO !!!!!!!
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 09:12:37 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 09:12:37 AM
There's really no difference in the 5.0 and 2.3 guys. The 2.3 guys say "5.0's are slow and not all that"....The 5.0 guys say " 2.3's are slow and can't beat a 5.0". Honestly, I downplay the power of the Sport as a joke, but in reality all you 2.3 owners,The Sport runs low 19's in the 1/4 with slicks, and goes 0-60 in 12.4 seconds. yes, it's moving pretty briskly,and no I don't mean to post those numbers and brag. I'm just saying that when your car has it, it has it.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 09, 2011, 02:23:56 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 09, 2011, 02:23:56 PM
No matter how fast your car is someone is always faster than you. At everything.
Back on topic. As far as 5.0 cars go there is not much of a difference between the 87 and 88 cars. My September 87 build date 88 LX has the metal rear window trim. My car was probably one of the first 88 assembled that year. I've been in the wiring harness (for a MAF swap) and found that all my wire colors are the same as an 87 T-bird.
Back on topic. As far as 5.0 cars go there is not much of a difference between the 87 and 88 cars. My September 87 build date 88 LX has the metal rear window trim. My car was probably one of the first 88 assembled that year. I've been in the wiring harness (for a MAF swap) and found that all my wire colors are the same as an 87 T-bird.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Carl on September 09, 2011, 02:35:55 PM
Post by: Carl on September 09, 2011, 02:35:55 PM
I've owned a decently quick 5.0, but even with all the parts I put on it was not as quick as my almost stock 2.3. (boost controller, exhaust, intake)
It kinda turned me over to the 2.3, but I know for a fact a 5.0 is cheaper to make super fast. There is a local guy here running 11s with a stock block 1994 5.0 mustang that's boosted at 7psi. He spent less than $1500 on the whole setup and he has 500rwhp.
Pretty impressive!
I guess I am still a fan of both engines, but it's nice to get good gas mileage when I'm out of boost.
It kinda turned me over to the 2.3, but I know for a fact a 5.0 is cheaper to make super fast. There is a local guy here running 11s with a stock block 1994 5.0 mustang that's boosted at 7psi. He spent less than $1500 on the whole setup and he has 500rwhp.
Pretty impressive!
I guess I am still a fan of both engines, but it's nice to get good gas mileage when I'm out of boost.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Soul on September 09, 2011, 04:03:20 PM
Post by: Soul on September 09, 2011, 04:03:20 PM
Reading this thread reminds me of being at a store, seeing a child throw a tantrum and everyone politely ignoring the kid cause the parent isn't disciplining them. Admins, Ban the morons. I been a member of many forums and typically lurk for fear of them Educating my threads. Yes they bring some good info, but mostly Renzo's are just gasoline + flame, pure idiots. Btw My junk is slower than Your "internet posted race cars". Glad you can impress some people, hope your sterile so my children don't suffer your kids opinions.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 09, 2011, 06:57:49 PM
Post by: Mischief on September 09, 2011, 06:57:49 PM
No one that posted here is a moron. Head strong, disagreeable, crotchety, cantankerous, set in the their ways, moody... sure, those are all accurate descriptions of every one on every forum in one thread or another. It just depends on how fervently one believes in the contrary of another, but moron, no no my friend, I assure you the debate had in this thread was not between morons, ignorant or stupid people. Simply people with opposite views who are passionate about what they do.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 07:31:05 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 07:31:05 PM
Yeah 2.3 !!!! Go turbo !!!!!!
5.0's SUUUUUCK like a Hoover !!!!!!
By the way, I am doing the 5.0 to 2.3 swap early next year. I'll be looking for all harnesses and misc. bits for the swap. I have seen the 2.3 light. The clouds have parted....the sun is shining, and the angels are singing.... it is TIME to relieve the Sport of that sinful BURDEN under the hood known as the dreaded and EVIL Five Point Oh. That waste of cast iron and aluminum. That horrible dark stain on the white carpet of the heavenly floors of 2.3 turbo heaven. Let's all have an AMEN !!!!!.......AMEN !!!!! The weight I have had to carry all these years has been lifted from my shoulders. I can now move freely and without fear through the valley of the Turbo 4. I have sen the Headlights. They are bright and clear. They are showing me the way to 4 cylinder salvation. AMEN !!!!
5.0's SUUUUUCK like a Hoover !!!!!!
By the way, I am doing the 5.0 to 2.3 swap early next year. I'll be looking for all harnesses and misc. bits for the swap. I have seen the 2.3 light. The clouds have parted....the sun is shining, and the angels are singing.... it is TIME to relieve the Sport of that sinful BURDEN under the hood known as the dreaded and EVIL Five Point Oh. That waste of cast iron and aluminum. That horrible dark stain on the white carpet of the heavenly floors of 2.3 turbo heaven. Let's all have an AMEN !!!!!.......AMEN !!!!! The weight I have had to carry all these years has been lifted from my shoulders. I can now move freely and without fear through the valley of the Turbo 4. I have sen the Headlights. They are bright and clear. They are showing me the way to 4 cylinder salvation. AMEN !!!!
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 09, 2011, 07:38:21 PM
Post by: Mischief on September 09, 2011, 07:38:21 PM
Considering that they don't boost, they vacuum, your "Suck like a hoover" comment is accurate. :P
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 07:50:29 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 07:50:29 PM
I wouldn't call it a "comment"...I'd call it more of moment of clarity. My eyes can truly see the power and torque of the might 2.3. Bow down you 5.0 fools and behold......the new era of the TURBOOOOOOOOO Foooooooourrrrrr !!!!!!
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 09, 2011, 08:07:51 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 09, 2011, 08:07:51 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367193
I wouldn't call it a "comment"...I'd call it more of moment of clarity. My eyes can truly see the power and torque of the might 2.3. Bow down you 5.0 fools and behold......the new era of the TURBOOOOOOOOO Foooooooourrrrrr !!!!!!
With a good set of ear plugs, you can almost drown out the tractor like chug, chug of a 4Cyl with performance cam and exhaust system...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: jangus on September 09, 2011, 08:31:56 PM
Post by: jangus on September 09, 2011, 08:31:56 PM
Jesus Vinnie, take it easy. You built a great running and looking car. If you like it, great. I think it's pretty cool, just not quite my flavor. The 2.3T isn't all powerful, but then again neither is the 5.0. It all boils down to choice, and what your comfortable with.
As far as the tractor sound, I think you're overstating it.
As far as the tractor sound, I think you're overstating it.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 08:44:21 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 08:44:21 PM
I'm distracting myself from the "Yes it can" and "No it can't" on the thread. I could go to another thread, but where's the fun in that?
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 08:46:14 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 08:46:14 PM
Quote from: jangus;367198
Jesus Vinnie, take it easy. You built a great running and looking car. If you like it, great. I think it's pretty cool, just not quite my flavor. The 2.3T isn't all powerful, but then again neither is the 5.0. It all boils down to choice, and what your comfortable with.
Um, exactly what flavor do you think the Sport is? And no, celery is not the correct answer.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: RoyLPita on September 09, 2011, 09:14:02 PM
Post by: RoyLPita on September 09, 2011, 09:14:02 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367201
Um, exactly what flavor do you think the Sport is? And no, celery is not the correct answer.
Asparagus? j/k
Mint.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 09:17:53 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 09, 2011, 09:17:53 PM
Closer to strawberry. Hey, it does.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 09, 2011, 10:08:19 PM
Post by: Mischief on September 09, 2011, 10:08:19 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;367197
With a good set of ear plugs, you can almost drown out the tractor like chug, chug of a 4Cyl with performance cam and exhaust system...
If you're the standard run of the mill Joe that goes with a magnaflow or Flowmaster, then yes, it sounds like a tractor. People with 2.3 4L thinks they're stepping outside the box enough, what they don't realize is there is NO SUCH THING AS ENOUGH! Piss on that box! Blow it up with Dynamite! Get away from that box and you can have a new creature that's not the norm! Vinnie, I love your car. I have read up on your Sport and I have to say, the love and care you put in to that car speaks more of you and your car than any cookie cutter faster "out of the box" car ever could. Take pride in your ride and know that it kicks ass with style!.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: jangus on September 09, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
Post by: jangus on September 09, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367201
Um, exactly what flavor do you think the Sport is? And no, celery is not the correct answer.
Well, it looks like celery. LOL.
And it runs like a striped ape. What you've managed to do with it is outstanding. I'd like my TC to look that good in a year.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Carl on September 10, 2011, 12:03:09 AM
Post by: Carl on September 10, 2011, 12:03:09 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;367197
With a good set of ear plugs, you can almost drown out the tractor like chug, chug of a 4Cyl with performance cam and exhaust system...
If subaru made a tractor it would sound like a ford 2.3
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 12:38:55 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 12:38:55 AM
Thanks from me and the Sport. You guys are beautiful. Not in a gay way. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm not judging.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 10, 2011, 01:35:26 AM
Post by: Beau on September 10, 2011, 01:35:26 AM
I will leave this forum never to return if Vinnie swaps to a 2.3t in that car.
I ain't bullshiznittin'.
I ain't bullshiznittin'.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: flylear45 on September 10, 2011, 06:15:12 AM
Post by: flylear45 on September 10, 2011, 06:15:12 AM
I've loved my 4 banger motors. A Merkur, 2 Tbirds and currently the TR7.
Now it's 5.0 time.
It's good to have choices.
Now it's 5.0 time.
It's good to have choices.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 07:39:29 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 07:39:29 AM
There are NO choices......2.3 baby....YEAH TURBO !!!!!
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: FLSTCI71 on September 10, 2011, 02:54:34 PM
Post by: FLSTCI71 on September 10, 2011, 02:54:34 PM
Quote from: FLSTCI71;367032
Okay, just so I have this all straight, the main differences between 87 and 88 Birds are that LSx’s are awesome motors, Hyundai Sonata shift lights use RPM & VSS, TC ECMs don’t know what gear they're in and Vinnie is glad he has a 5.0 in the Sport.
Now, if Vinnie is no longer glad he has a 5.0 in the Sport, then I am totally confused. Does that also mean TC ECMs DO know what gear they're in and LSx's are NOT awesome??
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 10, 2011, 03:21:38 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 10, 2011, 03:21:38 PM
Veyron engines are the shiznit. No way an LSX can make power cheaper.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 10, 2011, 03:30:34 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 10, 2011, 03:30:34 PM
L
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Kitties138.jpg
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Kitties138.jpg
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 10, 2011, 05:14:19 PM
Post by: Mischief on September 10, 2011, 05:14:19 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;367258
L
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Kitties138.jpg
Ya know, the guy that took that picture with that phone was a little scared. I think if I were going 160mph the last thing I would do is mess with my phone. Just sayin, most people can't mess with their phone and drive at 40mph, much less 160.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Mischief on September 10, 2011, 05:17:15 PM
Post by: Mischief on September 10, 2011, 05:17:15 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367189
Yeah 2.3 !!!! Go turbo !!!!!!
5.0's SUUUUUCK like a Hoover !!!!!!
By the way, I am doing the 5.0 to 2.3 swap early next year. I'll be looking for all harnesses and misc. bits for the swap. I have seen the 2.3 light. The clouds have parted....the sun is shining, and the angels are singing.... it is TIME to relieve the Sport of that sinful BURDEN under the hood known as the dreaded and EVIL Five Point Oh. That waste of cast iron and aluminum. That horrible dark stain on the white carpet of the heavenly floors of 2.3 turbo heaven. Let's all have an AMEN !!!!!.......AMEN !!!!! The weight I have had to carry all these years has been lifted from my shoulders. I can now move freely and without fear through the valley of the Turbo 4. I have sen the Headlights. They are bright and clear. They are showing me the way to 4 cylinder salvation. AMEN !!!!
Also, don't do a 2.3 swap, Turbo Coupes are cheap enough to just buy one. It will probably cost you less than the swap. Don't swap to something that already exists stock. Also, I would drop a 351 in that, perhaps a 400 BB or a 427/8/9. :) Go big or go home!
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 10, 2011, 06:04:25 PM
Post by: Beau on September 10, 2011, 06:04:25 PM
Find a running Probe GT, with the turbo 4. Swap all that in. Convert to front drive. Now embarrass all other front drive turbo 4 cars...lol
@ Renzo: Yes, that's cool, because running 160 on a public road is safe as can be. Let alone while shaging around with a phone. Hoping you or yours didn't take the pic....
@ Renzo: Yes, that's cool, because running 160 on a public road is safe as can be. Let alone while shaging around with a phone. Hoping you or yours didn't take the pic....
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on September 10, 2011, 08:27:49 PM
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on September 10, 2011, 08:27:49 PM
i wanted to stay outta this , but reading it has made me laugh more then once.
FACT: the 2.3T has limited boost with the la2. ITS A FRIGGIN FACT!
FACT: vinnie is really proud of sport, with the 5.0 blah blah blah we hear it all the time. yes vinnie you have a BAD ASS car. we know. But you dont have to hate the 2.3T crowd all the time. its not your cup of tea. we understand.
Which is why i went this route.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/ChrisPerry9/th_0408011206.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/ChrisPerry9/?action=view¤t=0408011206.jpg)
there, i have both. one 2.3 that gets awesome gas mileage, smokes alot, has 150,000 on her. looks decent, drives way better then that 5.0 next to it. boosts great. a fun car at 85mph+
the 5.0 gt: awesome 55,000 mile 1983 survior. fast, way to loud. gets 6 mpg, handles like . has 10 inch brakes still. and you have to do this thing where you pump the pedal to start it? idk. being a ford certified technician, i never learned that in ford school. odd.
reason why: im a 21 year old kid with way to much time on my hands, no baggage. and understanding parents.
so what have we learned?
absolutly nothing, sorry i wasted anyones time with this post.
but yea, its a fact. the 2.3T doesnt boost in all forward gears with an la2.
and vinnie loves his 5.0, im scared almost a little to much, but then again hes just a car guy.
Chris
so i found my reasons to like both motors, both cars. and have alot of fun
FACT: the 2.3T has limited boost with the la2. ITS A FRIGGIN FACT!
FACT: vinnie is really proud of sport, with the 5.0 blah blah blah we hear it all the time. yes vinnie you have a BAD ASS car. we know. But you dont have to hate the 2.3T crowd all the time. its not your cup of tea. we understand.
Which is why i went this route.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/ChrisPerry9/th_0408011206.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/ChrisPerry9/?action=view¤t=0408011206.jpg)
there, i have both. one 2.3 that gets awesome gas mileage, smokes alot, has 150,000 on her. looks decent, drives way better then that 5.0 next to it. boosts great. a fun car at 85mph+
the 5.0 gt: awesome 55,000 mile 1983 survior. fast, way to loud. gets 6 mpg, handles like . has 10 inch brakes still. and you have to do this thing where you pump the pedal to start it? idk. being a ford certified technician, i never learned that in ford school. odd.
reason why: im a 21 year old kid with way to much time on my hands, no baggage. and understanding parents.
so what have we learned?
absolutly nothing, sorry i wasted anyones time with this post.
but yea, its a fact. the 2.3T doesnt boost in all forward gears with an la2.
and vinnie loves his 5.0, im scared almost a little to much, but then again hes just a car guy.
Chris
so i found my reasons to like both motors, both cars. and have alot of fun
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: daminc on September 10, 2011, 09:49:15 PM
Post by: daminc on September 10, 2011, 09:49:15 PM
personally, I've always been a 3.8 guy myself
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 11:09:33 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 11:09:33 PM
Hey, 84Tbirdturbo42, I hate 5.0's, and now, I changed my mind. 2.3's SUCK......but not even close to how bad those boat anchor 5.0's do. I'm going 3.8 with Jerry. Yeah 3.8 !!! I'm going to find one for the Sport to shed weight,improve gas mileage and reduce harmful horsepower. My eyes are open. I also want CFI. Oh yeah !!!! Jerry, you made me me see the RIGHT choice. Thanks a lot.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on September 10, 2011, 11:15:12 PM
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on September 10, 2011, 11:15:12 PM
alright, let me know when you need help with the head gaskets. or tuning that 2150 carb.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 11:20:57 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 11:20:57 PM
I'll use the new improved head gaskets, and as far as the carb....I'll have it professionally tuned to get maximum efficiency from it for super quiet road trips, slower take offs which will reduce rear tire wear a LOT, and added space under the hood for easier engine access. Every reason for the swap makes perfect logical sense. I think I[m also going to remove those stupid 17 inch wheels and go back to 14x5 wheels for less rolling resistance and cheaper prices when replacement is necessary. Oh Yeah !!!! This is going to be SWEET !!!
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: daminc on September 10, 2011, 11:34:49 PM
Post by: daminc on September 10, 2011, 11:34:49 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367301
Hey, 84Tbirdturbo42, I hate 5.0's, and now, I changed my mind. 2.3's SUCK......but not even close to how bad those boat anchor 5.0's do. I'm going 3.8 with Jerry. Yeah 3.8 !!! I'm going to find one for the Sport to shed weight,improve gas mileage and reduce harmful horsepower. My eyes are open. I also want CFI. Oh yeah !!!! Jerry, you made me me see the RIGHT choice. Thanks a lot.
That's why I'm here Vinnie... to open peoples eyes, and minds
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: daminc on September 10, 2011, 11:36:02 PM
Post by: daminc on September 10, 2011, 11:36:02 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367306
I'll use the new improved head gaskets, and as far as the carb....I'll have it professionally tuned to get maximum efficiency from it for super quiet road trips, slower take offs which will reduce rear tire wear a LOT, and added space under the hood for easier engine access. Every reason for the swap makes perfect logical sense. I think I[m also going to remove those stupid 17 inch wheels and go back to 14x5 wheels for less rolling resistance and cheaper prices when replacement is necessary. Oh Yeah !!!! This is going to be SWEET !!!
I got some wire covers for you...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 11:40:09 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 10, 2011, 11:40:09 PM
Wire covers? Oh yes !!! Dan !!!! I'm moving to the dark side that only you and I will ever want to be in on purpose.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 11, 2011, 12:31:35 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 11, 2011, 12:31:35 AM
3.8??? OK Vinnie, I'm calling the guys in the white coats to have you committed...
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 11, 2011, 12:32:38 AM
Post by: Beau on September 11, 2011, 12:32:38 AM
No kiddin' lol
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 11, 2011, 12:38:55 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 11, 2011, 12:38:55 AM
O.K Tom, you've convinced me.....I'm staying with the 5.0. I couldn't have done my first H.O conversion years ago without you, and then Kitz twisting my arm and forcing me install the E303 and the Mass Air. Well, not forcing me....more like belittling me into it.....but it worked. All up hill from there.LOL. Now the Sport is carrying the load listed in the signature below. I have to admit, the roar of the exhaust when i twist the key is music to my ears. I have been known to start the car on a cool quiet morning....turn it off....then start it again just to listen to that tone. It can't be simulated by 2 or 4 less pistons. The Sport says "I'm here, I'm serious, and I mean business". I do still wonder how much horsepower she's putting down. I have no earthly idea. Hoping for a dyno day here in town this fall. Or at least on a cool morning. I'm really curious about the numbers compared to the E303/E-7 '86 engine with Flat tops and the Explorer intake. That'll be interesting to see.
So, to clear all this up....The 2.3 is the most powerful engine on our forum hands down. No question about it. Tons of horsepower and enough torque to shred pavement, the 3.8 is the smartest way to go, and the 5.0 sucks like a shop vac. I can live with that.
So, to clear all this up....The 2.3 is the most powerful engine on our forum hands down. No question about it. Tons of horsepower and enough torque to shred pavement, the 3.8 is the smartest way to go, and the 5.0 sucks like a shop vac. I can live with that.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: Beau on September 11, 2011, 02:26:50 AM
Post by: Beau on September 11, 2011, 02:26:50 AM
And big blocks are for wimps with small testicles...or so I'm told. I'm not lookin' at anyone's ballbag to verify.
Since I'm a po' , I'll just stick to my STOCK 5.0HO, since it's reliable, easy to work on, and if shiznit hits the fan, I can rebuild it easily, or even replace it with another.
I've got a 2.3 engine in a Mustang, yes, it's n/a, but still, I can't even time the goded thing, or else my belt isn't any good. Too cheap to buy a belt that may not solve the issue on a car that I may sell tomorrow.
As for the 3.8 Essucks....I've had 2 of 'em...one was a complete POS, overheated, popped a HG before I could get off the highway to safety and was DOA, never to live again. The other went strong until I decided to move after it had sat for a coupla months during a really dark, bad time in my life. Had a serious rear main leak, and in my prescription pain pill-induced blank mindedness, forgot to check the oil before I drove it back over here. A busted rod, gouged up cam, and resulting fire that ruined my fuel lines killed her off. And nearly me, had it kept burning...
That second 3.8 was the most reliable, strong V6 I'd ever seen or heard of. Many many times I increased the size of the dent in the floorpan under the gas pedal in a vain attempt to coax more speed from the thing...
Thankfully I learned my lesson and I'm still here...but not for lack of trying at the time...
Point is....who gives a shiznit whether it's got 4 holes, 6 or 8 even...build it as YOU want...and if we tease each other about this engine or that..well, at the end of the day, it's simply car guys' odd humor, and nothing personal. No more, and no less.
Sorry, didn't mean to delve into my personal life story there, but shiznit, some folks get too carried away over the size or make of what's under the hood. For that matter...if money was no object, I'd have a PowerStroke under the hood of mine, IF it would even have a chance in hell of fitting in the first place.
Since I'm a po' , I'll just stick to my STOCK 5.0HO, since it's reliable, easy to work on, and if shiznit hits the fan, I can rebuild it easily, or even replace it with another.
I've got a 2.3 engine in a Mustang, yes, it's n/a, but still, I can't even time the goded thing, or else my belt isn't any good. Too cheap to buy a belt that may not solve the issue on a car that I may sell tomorrow.
As for the 3.8 Essucks....I've had 2 of 'em...one was a complete POS, overheated, popped a HG before I could get off the highway to safety and was DOA, never to live again. The other went strong until I decided to move after it had sat for a coupla months during a really dark, bad time in my life. Had a serious rear main leak, and in my prescription pain pill-induced blank mindedness, forgot to check the oil before I drove it back over here. A busted rod, gouged up cam, and resulting fire that ruined my fuel lines killed her off. And nearly me, had it kept burning...
That second 3.8 was the most reliable, strong V6 I'd ever seen or heard of. Many many times I increased the size of the dent in the floorpan under the gas pedal in a vain attempt to coax more speed from the thing...
Thankfully I learned my lesson and I'm still here...but not for lack of trying at the time...
Point is....who gives a shiznit whether it's got 4 holes, 6 or 8 even...build it as YOU want...and if we tease each other about this engine or that..well, at the end of the day, it's simply car guys' odd humor, and nothing personal. No more, and no less.
Sorry, didn't mean to delve into my personal life story there, but shiznit, some folks get too carried away over the size or make of what's under the hood. For that matter...if money was no object, I'd have a PowerStroke under the hood of mine, IF it would even have a chance in hell of fitting in the first place.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: daminc on September 11, 2011, 09:05:16 AM
Post by: daminc on September 11, 2011, 09:05:16 AM
My 3.8 was actually a wheel peeler.... had some small balls for some odd reason... I will miss it, but on to a non stock V8...I wonder if I will see a diff when I get it going.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 11, 2011, 09:14:27 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 11, 2011, 09:14:27 AM
I think you'd see a small difference. The 3.8, in good shape has some decent torque to it. Just not a lot of horsepower. The 5.o has more of both. Not a whole lot, but more. Funny how a few small changes to the 5.0 make all the difference in the world.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 11, 2011, 09:41:45 AM
Post by: TOM Renzo on September 11, 2011, 09:41:45 AM
FACT: the 2.3T has limited boost with the la2. ITS A FRIGGIN FACT!
REALLY??????????? EVEN THESE THREE BELOW??????
http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-67.jpg
REALLY??????????? EVEN THESE THREE BELOW??????
http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-67.jpg
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on September 11, 2011, 10:05:29 AM
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on September 11, 2011, 10:05:29 AM
Tom what did i say? LA2, you have two LA3's and a LA2 according to that masking tape.
why do you always have to be right all the time?
why do you always have to be right all the time?
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: 1BadBird on September 11, 2011, 10:10:04 AM
Post by: 1BadBird on September 11, 2011, 10:10:04 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;367322
O.K .....So, to clear all this up....The 2.3 is the most powerful engine on our forum hands down. No question about it. Tons of horsepower and enough torque to shred pavement, the 3.8 is the smartest way to go, and the 5.0 sucks like a shop vac. I can live with that.
You crack me up Vinnie ...... LMFAO So.. since I'm putting in a 4.6 does this mean I'll have twice the power and torque or should I just se it and go with 4 holes?? LOL
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on September 11, 2011, 10:13:35 AM
Post by: 84TBirdTurbo42 on September 11, 2011, 10:13:35 AM
depends on what 4.6 your putting in, a legit 4.6 or 2 2.3's welded together? haha
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: vinnietbird on September 11, 2011, 10:23:58 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on September 11, 2011, 10:23:58 AM
Go 4 hole. A 4.6 is never going to stand up to the power of the mighty 2.3. It has been said that the sheer torque of the 2.3 has twisted cars clean in half, and turned drive shafts into a twisted mass of useless metal.
On another note. All those who feel compelled to argue, whine, cry, give up and go home, cry to momma, leave and never come back, need to see who can pee further than the other guy, has an insecurity issue and needs to prove he has a weenie, or wet the bed, please leave your name in the next reply box, or at least near there if it doesn't hurt your feelings too much.
Note....I had to say "weenie" due to children who may be listening. Thank you.
On another note. All those who feel compelled to argue, whine, cry, give up and go home, cry to momma, leave and never come back, need to see who can pee further than the other guy, has an insecurity issue and needs to prove he has a weenie, or wet the bed, please leave your name in the next reply box, or at least near there if it doesn't hurt your feelings too much.
Note....I had to say "weenie" due to children who may be listening. Thank you.
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: 1BadBird on September 11, 2011, 10:25:26 AM
Post by: 1BadBird on September 11, 2011, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: 84TBirdTurbo42;367348
depends on what 4.6 your putting in, a legit 4.6 or 2 2.3's welded together? haha
It's a lowly legit 4.6 DOHC. But I did think twice about JB welding 2 or 3 2.3's together....... lol
But I too often wonder why Tom is always right, the only one who knows absolutely everything automotive, the only one with connections to Ford, and yet has never kept his word about shutting up and going "home". Yes You have had useful/good knowledge, but my friend, your not the "know-all-be-all" Sorry.
I have 1 more ?? for you Tom..... When was the last time you tried to walk on water?......that wasn't frozen??
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: 1BadBird on September 11, 2011, 10:33:26 AM
Post by: 1BadBird on September 11, 2011, 10:33:26 AM
Ya, think I'll se it and go back to just 4 holes with 2 turbo's :mullet:
Title: differneces....87-88 T-Bird
Post by: EricCoolCats on September 11, 2011, 11:13:53 AM
Post by: EricCoolCats on September 11, 2011, 11:13:53 AM
g match over...enough already.