Technical => Drivetrain Tech => Topic started by: 87merc on August 08, 2011, 03:47:58 AM
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 08, 2011, 03:47:58 AM
I'm starting my 5.0 swap in my 87 cougar next weekend and I'm stuck when it comes to the transmission choice. The car will just have an 89 gt motor with a cam and a few bolt-ons, and will only see about 50 miles of driving a week. It will mostly just be an around town toy, and something for me to wrench on (so I don't lose my mind from working 70hrs a week). However, I sure would like to have OD, in case I wanted to drive to the track that's over an hour away, or go cruise w/my buddies around Louisville.
I like the durability of the c4, but the 3000rpm cruise is crampin' my style. Opinions?
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 08, 2011, 06:29:53 AM
I think you answered your own question. The 5 speed is what you need. With fuel at 4 a gallon that OD in the 5 speeder is GOLDEN.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 08, 2011, 02:32:15 PM
Yeah I think you're right. I've already got a c4, and I really didn't want to go through the trouble of swapping a t5, but that looks like the only plausible choice.
I guess I'll just have to deal with the weak t5, I'll just baby it when I add nitrous to the mix.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 08, 2011, 07:41:06 PM
You are correct about the T5 its definitely on the Weak side for sure. Good luck on your swap!!
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: randynten on August 08, 2011, 08:44:16 PM
Why not an AOD? I love the overdrive in mine. With 3.73 gears it will cruise all day at 75 or 80. And I think they are stronger than the T5.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 09, 2011, 02:33:41 AM
I think I have to agree with you randy. It was my belief that the aod was a worthless piece of junk, simply because I've heard horror stories of them burning up behind stock mustang motors. However I spoke with my brother today, who is a strong advocate of the aod, and he convinced me that an aod can be upgraded to handle an impressive amount of power with just a shift kit, servo, and alto red clutches/koleen steels.
I don't know why I never realized it, but he uses an aod in his 89 lx mustang which has a 331 stroker. He said he's never had a problem and he runs 11.40's all day with a trans he put together in his kitchen.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 09, 2011, 05:46:07 AM
Basically a good AOD can handle app 250-260 LBS OF TORQUE (300 HP APP) Not very good to say the least. These numbers are close to any stock T5. (some T 5 Trannys can handle (305 FT/LBS) Naturally you can build any Tranny to be Stronger but it costs BUCKS. I am not a fan of the AOD but then again i am a stick GUY. Most of the OD autos of years ago were pretty sloppy and weak. This is just me could be wrong but i would go 5 SPEEDER. I LIKE DRIVING A STICK. Just me. Good luck either way. Thanks! The 5 speeder, also gets you an extra GEAR!!!
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: BadShoe on August 09, 2011, 01:26:51 PM
Your car should have been an AOD car to begin with. Seems like the way to go to me.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: Beau on August 09, 2011, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;364827
Basically a good AOD can handle app 250-260 LBS OF TORQUE (300 HP APP) Not very good to say the least. These numbers are close to any stock T5. (some T 5 Trannys can handle (305 FT/LBS) Naturally you can build any Tranny to be Stronger but it costs BUCKS. I am not a fan of the AOD but then again i am a stick GUY. Most of the OD autos of years ago were pretty sloppy and weak. This is just me could be wrong but i would go 5 SPEEDER. I LIKE DRIVING A STICK. Just me. Good luck either way. Thanks! The 5 speeder, also gets you an extra GEAR!!!
Tom, an AOD can be built to take power and torque that a T5 would spill it's guts over...a lot of folks here are running modded AOD trans with 275-300 HP and up engines...it's all in the convertor, clutches, cooling, and last, but sure not least, keeping the TV cable adjusted properly...with that said, I'm not knocking a stick, it's what I prefer, but for weight vs reliability, I'd pick and AOD if I was laying down some good numbers, and needed the cruising gear. A C4 would only be an option if it was a track only car.
Just my thoughts :)
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 347Thunder on August 09, 2011, 09:58:09 PM
here is my 9 year old AOD tci shift kit, and b&m 3000 converter. I also drive it like this on the street,lol I think it has around 400hp to the wheel(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w92/03grinnie/T-bird/th_MOV06958.jpg) (http://s174.photobucket.com/albums/w92/03grinnie/T-bird/?action=view¤t=MOV06958.mp4)
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 09, 2011, 10:30:30 PM
Tom, an AOD can be built to take power and torque that a T5 would spill it's guts over.
SO CAN AN ALUMINUM POWERGLIDE!!!!!!! All i was saying was any tranny can be built strong. All It takes is MONEY. The T5 is not strong and a stock AOD is not also. With that said the T5 has an extra gear over the AOD. If an auto is your thing GO FOR IT.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 09, 2011, 10:38:12 PM
* 2.40:1 first gear ratio, 1.47:1 second gear, .67:1 OD. * Rebuilt front pump and governor. * Comes with B&M shift lever or stock Mustang lever for use in late model Mustang applications. * All new B&M high performance friction plates. * New overdrive band. * New low roller clutch with lube hole in inner race. * New filter. * Recalibrated valve body.
$1800.00 without a converter and shipping extra
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 09, 2011, 10:49:00 PM
This transmission comes with a high performance Superior Posi Shift Pac for firmer shifts and more holding power. Extra clutches are added to the direct clutch drum (Alto Red Eagle Power Pack). This is 40 to 60% more than stock. The direct clutch is the weak point in the stock AOD transmission. The stock overdrive band is replaced with a Carbon Fiber band. The intermediate roller clutch snap ring is replaced with a spiral plus locking ring. This snap ring is pr0ne to jumping off on hard high speed 1-2 shifts. We install a super hard input shaft because the stock input shaft is bad about breaking with performance / heavy duty use. The Dominator Junior transmission comes with the #14 performance torque converter with your choice of 1800, 2500 or 2800 stall speeds. No trade-in needed on this one, the core charge is in the price. This transmission fits all small block Ford motors. Good for motors up to 550 horse power using pump gasoline, see chart below. Add torque converter upgrade if needed. Very good for towing in overdrive because it has an A+ overdrive servo with more holding force on the band. The A+ servo is 11% larger than the largest AOD servo Ford ever made.
This transmission can be shipped to you for $2070.00. Compare all of these features to any other performance / heavy duty AOD on the market. Why pay this much or more without getting all of the good parts? Update your ride to an overdrive for a 30 to 40% increase in mileage on the road over a three speed transmission. The freight runs from free to $140.00 after freight discount in most cases.
So as i said a STOCK AOD is good for 250-260 HP according to this.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: Beau on August 10, 2011, 02:30:10 AM
Last I knew, an AOD had 4 forward speeds...
Comparing a 'Glide to an AOD is apples to bull balls. A 2 speed vs a 4 speed. Yeah, the AOD is big and heavy. It also has more gears, so the powerglide isn't an option for a street car. With that said, I again reiterate: there's folks here with mildly modded AODs and 300+ horsepower....it takes money to run fast...if I needed an auto trans, I wouldn't downgrade to a C4, let alone the 'glide...I'd pony up and get the beefed AOD. And not everyone has a raging hard-on for a T5 either....same thing: I'd ante up for a TKO or even a T56 if I HAD to have more power handling capability AND the money to purchase said TKO or T56...
Talk to me about weak factory 4 speed auto trannies....what's your thoughts on your favorite automaker's own 700R4? Not much (if any at all) better than a stock AOD. I've got one in my '88 K1500, yearly fluid and filter changes, and so far, knock on wood, it's still strong and shifting good...but nothing lasts forever.
Also, the Tbird/Cougar AOD has less clutches than the Stang's AOD...just food for thought. My thoughts are this, personally, it's not worth it to swap in the pedals, clutch cable, and related parts to gain a gear. Unless it's what you're dying to do and your AOD is about to shiznit the bed.
A lot of us aren't wealthy, professional BBC chevy builders, so we make do with what we have. Whether it's a mostly stock AOD with a shift kit, or a T5 with carbon blocker rings...it's all the same. Money talks, and bullshiznit walks.
Cheers :)
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 10, 2011, 02:52:16 AM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;364885
Last I knew, an AOD had 4 forward speeds...
Comparing a 'Glide to an AOD is apples to bull balls. A 2 speed vs a 4 speed. Yeah, the AOD is big and heavy. It also has more gears, so the powerglide isn't an option for a street car. With that said, I again reiterate: there's folks here with mildly modded AODs and 300+ horsepower....it takes money to run fast...if I needed an auto trans, I wouldn't downgrade to a C4, let alone the 'glide...I'd pony up and get the beefed AOD. And not everyone has a raging hard-on for a T5 either....same thing: I'd ante up for a TKO or even a T56 if I HAD to have more power handling capability AND the money to purchase said TKO or T56...
Talk to me about weak factory 4 speed auto trannies....what's your thoughts on your favorite automaker's own 700R4? Not much (if any at all) better than a stock AOD. I've got one in my '88 K1500, yearly fluid and filter changes, and so far, knock on wood, it's still strong and shifting good...but nothing lasts forever.
Also, the Tbird/Cougar AOD has less clutches than the Stang's AOD...just food for thought. My thoughts are this, personally, it's not worth it to swap in the pedals, clutch cable, and related parts to gain a gear. Unless it's what you're dying to do and your AOD is about to shiznit the bed.
A lot of us aren't wealthy, professional BBC chevy builders, so we make do with what we have. Whether it's a mostly stock AOD with a shift kit, or a T5 with carbon blocker rings...it's all the same. Money talks, and bullshiznit walks.
Cheers :)
Well said. My brother just hooked me up with a mark vii aod, which is said to be the best car aod made. I'm going to have to agree with the majority here and say that an aod is my best bet. I can say that my brother built his aod for around $1k (including converter), and his car hauls balls and shifts like a mofookie.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 10, 2011, 02:56:24 AM
I forgot to mention that my aod will recieve all the proper valvebody/clutch upgrades before I ever install it. Now hopefully I can find a good used converter in bowling green this october at the nmra finals.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 10, 2011, 06:24:20 AM
700R4 Pro Street 1988 & Up Part Number: 700PS
Transmission is for Pro Street/Strip use. Smooth part throttle shifts, firm WOT shifts. Handles about 650-675 FWHP with 10" or smaller torque converter. Transmission is custom built to match your engine, torque converter, & your driving conditions. One year warranty. Transmission is "dyno tested". Price: $1,985.00
I used the PG as an example that any tranny can be made strong. I was not suggesting using one on the street. If an auto is your thing FINE i personally run 6 SPEEDERS in my cars . In my BLOWN Chevy BB 572 I run a 400 Turbo. My Camaro is the only car i own other my normal drivers that has an AUTO TRANNY. Once again a stock AOD is limited as most stock trannys are. The T5 is also weak thats a given. I just voiced some info on the subject thats all. Sorry for Triggering your DEFENSE MECHANISMS on my posts. Basically an AOD has to have internal mods to last behind an engine that has GUTS. Its not my mission in life to make it sound like i am a SNOOTY RICH GUY. All i am doing is voicing an opinion. If installing a clutch pedal is brain surgery for you RUN AN AUTO. Have a nice day
Sport 302 i do not post to annoy you please dont take my posts so seriously. Different strokes for different folks. Their are people on this planet that think Toyotas are CARS. I for one dont. Thats life have a good day 302.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: vinnietbird on August 10, 2011, 09:19:16 AM
My '76 Grand Prix had a 455 and TH400. I couldn't kill that tranny.
Anyway....I had a few AOD's in my Birds, Even from the Mark VII..... and I actually prefer the T-5. My last AOD had a shift kit and was great, but once I installed the T-5, no looking back. My T-5 was re-built in Oklahoma City for extreme duty. Otherwise, I probably would've killed it by now.
The pedal assembly swap for the T-5 was no big deal. Took about an hour and a half taking my time and talking a lot while I was working. I pulled the driver seat and the column to speed the process and gain a lot of needed work space. The actual tranny swap took 4 hours.
In the end, it's all about what the owner of the car wants. Some prefer an auto, some prefer to row the gears manually. I just do what i want for the Sport for myself. It's all about me.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: mcb82gt on August 10, 2011, 10:19:41 AM
FYI for those who dont know.. the overdrive ratio is the same on the AOD and T5
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 10, 2011, 12:45:34 PM
OD ratio for the AOD
.67
OD ratio for the T5
.63 .68 .73 .78 .79 .80 .81 .85
Not all T5 trannys have the same OD ratios. And according to BW none have a ratio of .67 like the AOD
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 10, 2011, 12:50:52 PM
My '76 Grand Prix had a 455 and TH400. I couldn't kill that tranny.
I am going out on a limb her to say the two strongest trannys in 3 speed configuration STOCK would be a C6 And a 400 Turbo.
Looking at an OD automatic for fords i would say the AOD is the strongest. And if an auto is your thing for fords in OD configuration it would definitely be the AOD.
Vinny you had a 455 GREAT MOTOR. NUNZI used to build some of the fastest Pontiacs around.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 10, 2011, 12:57:27 PM
Default
My '76 Grand Prix had a 455 and TH400. I couldn't kill that tranny.
Reminds me of the old days with NUNZI. Talk about fast Pontiacs!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 10, 2011, 07:32:51 PM
I have a built AOD (A+ billet servo, 2" OD band, epoxy mody, automatic or manual shifting, beefeed up clutches, 2800 non lock up converter yada yada) and the thing is FUN. It snaps off shifts faster than I could ever hope to do in a T5. Was it expensive? Yes. Is it overkill for my combo? Yes. Will I kill the AOD if I went with a 331 or 347 in the future? No.
Here's the thing: a stock AOD or T5 is weak. If you want a reliable transmission behind a modified engine it's going to cost $$.
Oh and the Mark VII AOD is longer than the Mustang/T-bird AOD. To run it you'll need to have your driveshaft shortened.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 10, 2011, 07:51:04 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;364932
I have a built AOD (A+ billet servo, 2" OD band, epoxy mody, automatic or manual shifting, beefeed up clutches, 2800 non lock up converter yada yada) and the thing is FUN. It snaps off shifts faster than I could ever hope to do in a T5. Was it expensive? Yes. Is it overkill for my combo? Yes. Will I kill the AOD if I went with a 331 or 347 in the future? No.
Here's the thing: a stock AOD or T5 is weak. If you want a reliable transmission behind a modified engine it's going to cost $$.
Oh and the Mark VII AOD is longer than the Mustang/T-bird AOD. To run it you'll need to have your driveshaft shortened.
Thats what i was saying. A good Slush BOX costs in the neighborhood of 2 LARGE. Making any auto strong costs BUCKS. Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: randynten on August 10, 2011, 08:18:52 PM
You have to spend some bucks on the T5 or AOD but I think it's worth it. Now when you talk Pontiac thats my thing. It's all I ever raced or drove up till I bumped my head and went ford. Lol. The last one I had was a 76 GP SJ. The good part was it only cost me $500 to have the almost indestructible turbo 400 buit for it. Nunzi is great, So is Jim Hand.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: vinnietbird on August 10, 2011, 08:19:11 PM
The Grand Prix I had also had a trans Am shaker hood scoop as well. The hood was from a Can Am as was the scoop assembly (shared with the T/A). I loved that car. Had every option available at the time. That Pontiac put out crazy amounts of torque.
I had a Dodge with a 440 and a 727 Torqueflite. That was a wicked strong tranny as well. Brutal car.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: randynten on August 10, 2011, 08:33:53 PM
I've had GTO's and Firebirds but my favorite were always the Grand Prix. I had a 71 that was very cool, alot of 76 and 77's. I had a 77 with a 40 over 428, 400 trans, 323 gears that was mt DD. I used the air cond everyday. On street tires with a quadrajet it would run high 12's to low 13's.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 12, 2011, 02:16:42 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;364932
Oh and the Mark VII AOD is longer than the Mustang/T-bird AOD. To run it you'll need to have your driveshaft shortened.
OH, I was under impression I could swap tailshafts. maybe I'm wrong.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 12, 2011, 02:54:00 AM
Ah I am wrong. All of the aod/e/4r70w tailshafts are swappable, but the mark vii output shaft is the critical piece @ 1" longer. I can swap the tailshaft with my cougar's stock tail, but then my stock driveshaft slipyoke *might* bottom out on the mark vii output shaft when the suspension is fully compressed.
Seems like I'll be getting my driveshaft shortened after all...
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 12, 2011, 06:23:01 AM
To determine the "effective" first-gear-ratio improvement derived from using the wide ratio gear-set in a given application, simply multiply your rear axle ratio by 1.183 to obtain the equivalent standard gear-set axle ratio. In other words, a 3.27-1 axle ratio with a wide ratio gear-set will provide the equivalent of a 3.87-1 axle ratio with a standard ratio gear-set in first gear while providing identical ratios (and resultant cruise RPM’s) in third and only slightly different overdrive ratios. Essentially, the wide ratio kit makes your vehicle act as if it has a lower (higher numerically) axle ratio for maximum acceleration without sacrificing fuel mileage and increasing engine wear as a rear end gear swap would do. For most mild street vehicles, the wide ratio gear-set works best with a 3.27 or 3.55-1 rear axle ratio. Your transmission is already a wide ratio and electronically controlled. So is that what you want to do???? Run an E-AOD
OK 87 merc now you want a wide ratio GEAR BOX THATS ELECTRONIC. I do not have a clue what you are trying to do at this point. Do you want an AOD close ratio NON ELECTRONIC or an AOD-W Electronic unit with the longer TAIL SHAFT. With the wide ratio you will drop more RPM through the gears but gain First gear RATIO. Your posts are FASCINATING to be honest. Do you intend to use the E series AOD or just the AOD??????????????
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 12, 2011, 06:34:20 AM
. The car will just have an 89 gt motor with a cam and a few bolt-ons, and will only see about 50 miles of driving a week. It will mostly just be an around town toy,
This is your post so why do you want OD just curious. You asked about an OD or 5 speeder and now you are looking for or actually have an AOD-E electronic tranny you want to use. With limited highway use as you posted and 50 miles of driving a week. YOU HAVE ME CONFUSED and i do not know what you are trying to DO HONESTLY Thanks Just curious what is your final drive GEAR RATIO??? I know you want the OD for highway trips as yo stated but i am still Confused as to your actual setup you plan on building???
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 12, 2011, 11:08:51 AM
Quote from: 87merc;365022
Ah I am wrong. All of the aod/e/4r70w tailshafts are swappable, but the mark vii output shaft is the critical piece @ 1" longer. I can swap the tailshaft with my cougar's stock tail, but then my stock driveshaft slipyoke *might* bottom out on the mark vii output shaft when the suspension is fully compressed.
Seems like I'll be getting my driveshaft shortened after all...
Yeah the output shaft is the problem. For some reason Ford decided that the Mark VII and Town Car should have a longer output shaft. Why? I have no idea. I think it was just a way to make Lincoln different.
I had thought about putting a wide ratio gear set in my AOD when I had it rebuilt. The trans guy said not to bother as I would just incinerate the tires even easier. He was right. With a 3.73 gear and the 2800 stall converter I can absolutely destroy my tires on launch and the 1-2 shift. The wide ratio gear set would have made it worse. According to him he hasn't seen much of an improvement it E.Ts with the wide ratio gear sets behing 302s or 351Ws as they make a bunch of low end torque. The 4.6 and 5.4 mod motors benefit more from the wide ratio set as they don't have as much low speed torque production.
Each case is different though. A high revving small block (7000+ rpm) would probably need the wide ratio set up as it wouldn't make good low end torque.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 12, 2011, 02:23:08 PM
5.0 ford drop top under body rebuild AOD wide ratio and 3.27 final gears. This is my wife's DROP TOP during resto. JR got carried away and smoked the tires. It has a 6 speeder now. Thanks Thunder Have a good weekend Tom
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 13, 2011, 02:41:55 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;365028
. You asked about an OD or 5 speeder and now you are looking for or actually have an AOD-E electronic tranny you want to use. With limited highway use as you posted and 50 miles of driving a week. YOU HAVE ME CONFUSED and i do not know what you are trying to DO HONESTLY Thanks Just curious what is your final drive GEAR RATIO??? I know you want the OD for highway trips as yo stated but i am still Confused as to your actual setup you plan on building???
This entire post was about durability vs. practicality. IF I would decide down the road to drive the car more, I wouldn't want to be intimadated by the low economy of a non-OD trans. That is where my desire for OD comes in.
The only mention I made of ANY electronic transmission (be it AODE or 4r70w), was the fact that the tailshafts are swappable between all AOD type cases.
My final drive ratio will be no lower than 3.73, and I'll just be running an HO motor with an E cam, headers, ported E7's, RR's, and a 650 carb.
I know you're more intelligent than myself Sir, but if you'd read each post more carefully, you might not be so confused. Thank you for your input.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 13, 2011, 11:38:12 PM
Its not that i am more intelligent. When planning a build its always good to know what you want. I posted that the transmission can be had as a close or wide ratio. I would think you should know what your setup will be before jumping into a build. As thunder jet posted he was comfortable with a close ratio unit. If people get defensive when info is posted by others then WHY ASK. I find this on other sites as well. If someone answers a question and the poster that asked it in the first place does not like the answer they gets MAD. Then why BOTHER asking if you already have a PLAN. Some get mad when the answer is correct as well. I cant for the life of me figure that out?? Sorry for clouding the discussion with FACTS!!!! Thanks.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: 87merc on August 20, 2011, 12:33:24 AM
You're right Tom, I was out of line with my smart a** comment. I apologize. Just to clear things up, the transmission I have is a non-electronic AOD with a 1" longer tailshaft and output shaft. Thank you for helping me with my decision. If I had the money I would go with a built T5 or TKO, but for now a second-hand aod with a few mods will have to suffice.
Title: T5 or built C4?
Post by: TOM Renzo on August 20, 2011, 06:59:17 AM
No Worry's 87 that is what the talk sites are all about. Good luck on your build. I am sure it will be a good one. No need to apologize.