On a 87 t.c the green wire at the alternator that goes to the gauge I read that it is hot on key but should it be ground on key off?
No.
Why do you ask?
OK here is the circuit build
C311-38-BK/O goes to S262out from shunt R/LG to Shunt 37-Y. C310-36-Y/W Goes to S269 20GAUGE fuse link BLUE Fuse link In portion of Shunt 37-Y. Another words both have battery on them across the ammeter shunt. Hope this helps
87 TC revision to alt lead 17645 Green or LG/R 904 to 20 GAUGE fuse link-K to ignition switch RUN. Yes this lead will have Ground on it with the key off and battery on it with key on.
You are correct that my post was probably misleading. A lack of voltage looks the same as ground on a volt meter.
I was hoping he would respond with more detail about his problem
I assume this is a 50mv shunt,, could be 25mv though.
I'm chasing a parasitic loss. With the alt plugged in I'm pulling 12.5 volt with a meter in line with the pos post. Unplugged it drops to .43 volts. Wanted to know what's what with the plug before I jump on the guy who rebuilt my alt
then start unplugging one output connector at a time on the alternator,, or at best,,,
-remove every wire / ring lug at the starter relay
-connect one wire at a time until you see the voltage reappear.
-once you determine which wire is the cause, it will send you to the downstream fault.
Typically we tend to jump on the voltage regulator,, which could still be the fault.
Are you a 3g upgrade?
if not
are you unplugging the regulator connector or the alternator ouput connector making the 12v go away?
Take the negative battery cable off the battery. Hook a test light between the negative battery cable and the negative battery post.
If it lights, you have a battery drain.
Disconnect stuff until you figure out which wire lights the light.
A good place to start is at the starter relay. Take all the wires off the terminal that the positive battery cable goes to.
If the light goes out, put the wires back on one at a time starting with the pos battery cable.
Its 3g Ive gone through the fuse panel Ill try the rings on the starter solenoid in the am.
ahh,,, well now, since removing the fuses did not make the issue go away, then its an upstream problem closer to the battery and not a downstream device.
Not looking good at all for the voltage regulator.
Those are not cheap nor is a 3g alt.
I about ped when (on mason's bird) i discovered how expensive the 3g's are.
just fyi, not every single thing is fused in our cars, ,although the intent was to add fuse links to devices that it was not practical to fuse,, they fail in my opinion to serve as a fuse for what a fuses call to duty is suppose to be.
Thunderchicken solved this and many other qurky wiring issues with a relay / fuse bank,,, which I think is great if your good at wiring.
You started off right but you should have started at the starter relay first,, lesson learned though, getting at each fuse is a pita i know.
Its been a long learning experience I'm told I'm good at wiring I can understand a semi complex circuit. All my friend come to me for wiring help but oh how I Hate wiring Ive started soldering and shrink tube on all connections where possible.
By the way glad to see your back JCassity.
Actually when you look at circuits that are not powered up they will be grounds because their is no current flow. Example if ypu remove a FUSE on a device and hook your Test light to battery and back probe lets say a blower circuit it will act like a ground because thats what it is. The blower motor has low resistance and will light the Test light easily. This stumps many a novice when trouble shooting. I am not saying you are a novice i am talking in general. Normally walk away drains are best shot with a test light in series with the negative battery terminal. But you must use a conventional test light not a circuit safe one. Then do a MILLI AMP drain test to calculate exact shutdown drain. Thanks. His initial question was the green wire that does not terminate at the ammeter. It is key battery through a fuse LINK. Thankss
Hang in their it takes years to learn. I have been doing it all my life and still learning. Soldering is the key until they ban the stuff. Here is a tip!!!! Stock up on 60/40 solder flux core they are going to ban it. All car manufacturers cant build cars any more using solder its illegal. Everything is CRIMPED. I was told this by a couple of GM engineers.
The regulator draws current even when the car is off. You have to use a milli amp meter to check it properly. All cars draw down some thats the nature of the BEAST now. Radio memory seat memory ETC. New cars draw up to 200 Milliamps. They eventually run the battery down if not started. Good luck and have a good night
You Need to do a draw down test before condemning a part. All alternators draw down on walk away. Check the draw down amperage not the voltage.
be careful,, remember this thread? (in my diy link)
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=15802&highlight=3g
As far a I know, we as a group have still not confirmed the wiring of the three variations that ford used to wire in the shunts for the buttstuffog cluster. In the above link, the guys car burnt to the ground as a result of a 3g swap.,, just sayin.
I woulnt suggest (for the moment) checking amperage as tom said for the simple reason,, You say you have a draw of 12v potential. With that much draw, and if a regular test light "in place of the meter" glows easily and bright, your amperage on the draw my exceed the max ampacity of your meter..... IE- you may smoke check your meter if the amps in this suspected draw is higher than what your meter allows.
Typically people deal with a parasitic draw of milli-volts like tom mentioned but in your case you state you have a full blown battery voltage showing up,, I would be cautious so you dont smoke something.
In cases where the parasitic draw is milli volts, you can borrow your instrument panel headlamp switch light bulb and harness as your test light. Typically with a milli volt draw, there is not enough voltage to light the larger test light softtouch mentions, this is not the situation in your case. Using the smaller bulb allows you to have a "test light" with the capability of lighting up when there is only milli volts present.
again, be careful on what you doing, jumpering out,, or injecting power on because frankly, there are too many errors or misleading documention in the EVTMS and shop manuals for the unique TC with buttstuffog clusters.
The 3g alt cheet sheet we have a sticky on should be accurate "as far as we know" but i still wait for someone with a TC to chime in and comment, hopefully our 3g instructions posted are not directly effecting your car in some way.
Tom, do you know what size the shuts are engineered to?
Long ago, I asked the other "Tom" ~turbocoupe50~who pretty much knows everything about anything like softouch and he wasnt sure.
With all the wires off the starter solinoid including 12 volt bat I still have a draw?
Do you have the test light between the neg battery cable and the neg battery post?
How are you testing for a draw?
Your troubling shooting proceedure may be leading you down the garden path.
Not now I'm on the positive with a volt meter in line with the post and terminal. I'm pulling 6.5 amps with the key off. Already replaced the fuse in my meter the other day.
If you have the battery cable disconnected from the battery and have a volt meter between the battery post and the disconnected cable, you should see 12v battery voltage.
You are not measuring drain.
Your meter "sees" the negative side of the battery on the disconnected positive cable through what ever loads are turned on in the car. Some of the loads cannot be turned off, like the radio, clock and computer keep alive and the alternator.
You see the voltage but are not drawing any current with the cable disconnected.
The DC electronics rule is when you have an open circuit ( taking the battery cable off opened the circuit) the entire applied voltage will be seen across the open.
The 6.5 amps you read with your amp meter says you have a heavy enough drain to light the test light. That is the way I recommend trouble shooting it.
I've walked away for now. I can see why projects get put on hold or sed.
Sorry if I made it sound complicated.
With the test light you don't have to worry about blowing the fuse in your ammeter.
OK he has a heavy draw down at 6+ amps. Something is ON. The SHUNT is as i remember 25 MILLI amps. That makes no difference because the ammeter in the car is actually a MICRO VOLT METER that reads the voltage drop across the shunt and is converted to amps. The shunt is irrelevant. You have to keep on disconnecting circuits till you find the DRAW. The best way is with a test light and then a meter after the trouble is cleared. Install the test light in series with the Negative battery cable
you may have meant something different than what you typed in post 19, but,
If i assume I think and know what you meant to say,
then replace your starter relay and put this puppy to rest.
With all the "small ring lug wiring" unhooked and the battery cable still connected, its the only device remaining. ITs probably the only thing in the car that can put up with that much continuous load and not smoke check itself.
tom
The shunt topic was a side line discussion because its on my list of things to do on a circuit I am documenting. However,, Im not sure the meter can be a uVolt meter, makes no sense. mVolt yes, but if its reading micro volts, then thats one heck of a calibrated buttstuffog meter. Besides, they dont engineer shuts to milli amps,, they are engineered to Xvolts, maybe you meant 25milli volts, can you confirm your source?
For example, I know of 2LB to 40LB shunts that are 100A to 10,000A and 50mv rated.
well, i should have warned you sooner than what I did, been off the board for the a long while.
I would never check for amps on anything until i was dead sure it was a small amount of current by educated process of elimination.
I stand corrected i meant MILLI VOLT METER. NOT MILLI AMPS.
The way i understand it is the shunt which is designed into EVERY AMMETER.The milli voltmeter READS THE VOLTAGE DROP ACROSS A GIVEN SHUNT. THE VOLTAGE LOSS OR DROP IS IN Milli volts. Thats what the meter reads and it is calibrated in AMPS of course. Its been a while since i took my electronics courses. I messed up the nomenclature SORRY. How about VERY VERY SMALL VOLTAGES HA HA HA Sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. I am getting old.
Jcassity I should of mentioned the battery is in the trunk and a dedicated wire to the alt has been run. Ive been presented with the opportunity to try a brand new not rebuilt ford alternator and see if I still have a draw. I have to wait till Wednesday though
having the battery in the trunk makes no difference.
-you pulled all fuses and the 12v drain is still there
-I assume you pulled all the small wiring off *one side* of the starter relay leaving the battery still bonded to the starter relay and the 12v drain was still there.
-this tells me the solenoid is still in the circuit and nothing else on your car is tied to the battery anymore.
-there is the option that you have a very minor knick in the wiring from the trunk up to the starter relay that allows your battery to barely touch chassis ground and yet not smoke check anything. Do a wiggle test on the battery cable going to the starter relay and with your test light in line with your battery negative cable.
leme reword,,,
with your test light in line with your battery negative cable and the negative post,,,,,
and,,,
your positive battery cable connected to the starter relay
and,,
all the small wiring removed from your starter relay
do you still have the 12v drain?
makes no difference if your battery is in the trunk or not. You could have a knicked battery cable and its barely touching chassis ground as well. do a wiggle test on the positive battery cable after you do the above.
With a test lite on the negative side of the battery and all the small wires of the fender wall relay off the test lite is out. Put 2 wires for car on and had lite. Rechecked fuses pulling one at a time lite went out after pulling fuse #8. I still have 11.36 volts on a meter and 11.99 in bat. Connected neg side back and pulled pos cable had same reading. Disconnected plug from alt got a rerading of 0.33. The guy that built the alternator says it fine
I am going to jump in on this quick to verify if I'm correctly understanding what I'm reading, since I am also having some kind of alternator/wiring/charging problem.
You are saying that if I disconnect everything from the starter solenoid except the positive battery cable, and hook up a test light between the negative post and the negative cable, and the tester lights up, that this is a problem? Because I just tried it on my car and the test light fires right up. The kicker is I just put in a new solenoid about a month ago. Maybe it was a lemon?
Fuse 8 goes to a bunch of courtesy lights, power door locks, Keyless entry, power mirrors, anti-theft and illuminated entry.
Are you sure no lights were on when you were testing? Door open, trunk light on, under the hood light on.
Go back to your test light setup.
Remove the under the hood and the trunk bulbs. Make sure a door is not ajar to turn on the dome light.
Put the all the wires back on one at a time to make sure only one of them lights the test light.
If it boils down to one wire and fuse 8 turns it off, leave the wire that lights the light on and put fuse 8 back in. Unhook the test light. Leave the neg bat cable unhooked.
After dark, hook up the neg bat cable. Get in the car, close the door and look for light coming from anywhere. Glove compartment, ash tray etc.
If no light you are going to have to start chasing the Light Green/ Yellow Wire from fuse 8.
Let us know and we can help chase the wiring.
Oh, and walk around outside of car and check for key hole and keyless entry pad lights.
Softtouch. It gets better there no doors on the car and all bulbs are pulled. I'm gonna get the doors on hopefully in a couple of days and pray my problem goes away. Even with fuse 8 pulled and test light dark the bat went dead in a few hours.
Thanks. For the help guys. I'll keep going hope to drive this thing soon
Yes that is a problem. It should not light up with all of the wires on either if everything in the car is turned off.
Does the light go out when you disconnect the pos cable from the solenoid?
Pretty sure the alternator smoked this afternoon. I put the car on the ground and it moved up and down the driveway.
I wanted to rinse of some body work dust and dirt from the engine bay. The car was rough to start got something wet when it did fire up I could hear the alt working hard and then it was quiet I thought it recovered. Looking at the volt meter and fan on with lights on at 1100 rmp about 11 volts shut it off the alt was to hot to touch. I'm guessing there's no thermal overload in one of them well Ill see tomorrow
totally wrong,, re-read what the original poster said.
He said he had no light with "ALL" small secondary downstream wiring off the starter relay (with the positive battery cable still connected)
He said he had power when he added "TWO" wires back onto the starter relay
He did not say he was reading "across" the battery
He is reading in series with the battery from the negative battery cable and the negative battery post via a test light.
Hope that helps so it does not feed into your troubleshooting technique and cause you to misunderstand things.
remove the voltage regulator and inspect the brushes, see if he also "pulled the pin" on the granade.
when you do a new brush kit on the voltage regulator, there is a hole you are suppose to use to keep the brushes fully pushed in so you can install the regulator. After its screwed down, you pull the small paperclip out and the brushes pop out and land on the alternator armature to complete the path for power production. I think that basically one brush is positive and the other is negative.
if he did not install the regulator correctly, he could have caused the regulator to crash itself, or perhaps he may have the incorrect regulator.
Keep in mind if he rebuilt your alt and charged you a cheap price, ***and claimed its a new regulator, then there is a problem.
Trust me,, price the regulator for the 3g , for number will start with "F4", 1994,, as in for taurus ect. just the regulator alone is about 160bux.
oddly enough, it appears that the cheaper non 3g regulator will bolt right on your 3g alt chassis, not sure how it would act but my gut is it would overload quickly.
yes that was a hint,, go out and find out what the first two numbers are on your voltage regulator. If it begins with "E", then its wrong.
Ther is no # on the regulator just a name aurra? also I put a charger on the bat at 2 amps and the altenator is to hot to touch with the car off.
Sorry, I was slightly mistaken. The positive cable on the solenoid doesn't trigger the test light (which is in series with the negative terminal). What triggers the test light it is the smallest wire that is bolted on to the solenoid (not the one that clips on). I don't know what that wire does but right after leaving the solenoid it splits into three wires. What is this wire and what should I do next?
Well thanks for the input, but I wasn't really responding to the original poster. Also, I don't think you read what I said, because I didn't say I was reading across the battery. My test light is in series between the negative cable and the negative post.
First make sure no lights are on. Doors and trunk are closed. Take the bulb out of the under the hood light.
The EVTM shows two smaller wires on the solenoid terminal with the battery cable.
They both go to three fuse links.
Take the fuses out to see if one turns the light out.
What color are the fuse links on the wire that has the problem?
I don't understand this. That's a quick draw to not light the light, unless the battery didn't have much of a charge to begin with.
Nope. No thermal overload
Has the alternator ever worked since the 3G upgrade?
What type of current overload protection do you have between the battery and the alternator?
The stock 2.3 has a green 14 gage fuse link.
Can you post a link to the 3G upgrade instructions you used?
my error, sorry bout that
I cant find a link with a trunk mount batt but I used the 3g sticky
Wow first time replying with quotes will have to work on that?
Well now I am showing my lack of electrical knowledge. I had wondered if the hood light might make a difference, but since it wasn't lighting up when I put the test light in series, I didn't worry about it. But sure enough, when I took the hood bulb out, the test light didn't light up anymore. So I guess my problem isn't related to a drain on the battery.
Thanks for all the help, and thanks to "thewestie" for letting me jump in on his thread. I thought maybe we had the same problem, but I guess not. Now back to the drawing board.
Good luck
Just a thought here. WHAT TYPE OF TEST LIGHT ARE YOU USING?? I had a Gm Diesel with a glow plug code in the ECM and had one of my apprentices check out the glow plugs with a test light. Thats how you test them. You clip one end of the test light on battery and back probe the Glow plug with the wire removed. If the test light lights the glow plug is normally good. Joe came to me and said all the glow plugs were GOOD. Impossible i said we have a code in the ecm. So joe did a Glow plug test again and the test light lit on every one of them. Well as the old dog i am i smiled at joe and said you are 100% correct that test light tested those Glow plugs OK. But wait!! Here is what i did !! I grabbed my old FASHIONED BULB type test light and had Joe do the test again. WELL WHAT DO YOU KNOW!! Joe Found a BAD Glow plug on number one cylinder. Baffled by why his test light didn't pick up the bad glow plug he asked me WHY. Well he had one of those sensor safe ones that he bought from the SNAP ON GUY. He paid a BLOODY fortune for it and it does have its PLACE in trouble shooting. But not for walk away draws or testing things like Glow plugs, Moral is make sure your test light is an old one with a conventional bulb. Or better yet use a bulb and socket with like an 1156. This will give you a true reading on a DRAW. Now the problem with the DIESEL was removing the OLD GLOW PLUG!!! RATS Now i had to show that apprentice how to do that without breaking it OFF. What a way to start a MONDAY. Thanks!!
Using a test light that is designed as sensor safe will light up with a draw with a low regulator draw of a couple of Milli amps. Regulators normally draw a couple of milliamps all the time depending how you wire it. This is normal and can have you CHASING BALLOONS.
you said you had the doors off,
in the door hinge area , either force both buttons in the "in" position or remove the wire going to both.
just another idea for this high of a draw.
also, reconfirm, your starter relay configuration....
on one side you should just have the battery cable
on the other large stud you should have all your small wiring
with the test light in series with the negative post and negative cable
and......
all small wires off one side your starter relay...You should have no draw.
touch one small wire at a time to the empty side of your starter relay and tell us which wire makes your test light come back on.
Ill see if I can do that tomorrow afternoon I'm actually getting stuff painted and lined up to go back on the car