Technical => Drivetrain Tech => Topic started by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 02, 2011, 11:44:21 PM
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 02, 2011, 11:44:21 PM
Really hard to get into 2nd gear. All other gears are perfect. Ford mechanic thinks it has to be synchronizers, but it feels to me like the shifter just isn't working the lever far enough to actually shift it all the way into gear, like it's out of adjustment?! Most of the time you think it's in gear & let out the clutch & it grinds like it was only part of the way in. Then sometimes it will go into gear just fine. Sometimes, when it's in 2nd gear & you're not holding the shifter, it will pop out of gear also. Is there any kind of linkage adjustment that may be causing this problem? The TurboCoupe only has 40K miles on it, but after all it is 26 years old. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Jeff Columbus, Ohio
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Beau on July 03, 2011, 02:13:07 AM
40k doesn't mean jack if the previous owner spent a lot of time jamming it into second hard...
I'd say your wrench is probably correct. If you have a stock shifter, and the cable is properly adjusted (assuming it's an adjustable unit, ie, not a stocker) then 95% chance your second gear synchro is shot.
Drain the fluid and check it for metal flakes, shavings, and the like...if there's some in it, then I think you'll know what to do. HTH.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Thunder Chicken on July 03, 2011, 06:50:38 AM
Could be a bent shift fork too... either way the tranny will have to come apart
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 03, 2011, 09:11:11 AM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;362685
40k doesn't mean jack if the previous owner spent a lot of time jamming it into second hard... Bought from the original owner, college professor about 60, and he babied it! I'd say your wrench is probably correct. If you have a stock shifter, and the cable is properly adjusted (assuming it's an adjustable unit, ie, not a stocker) then 95% chance your second gear synchro is shot.
Drain the fluid and check it for metal flakes, shavings, and the like...if there's some in it, then I think you'll know what to do. HTH.
I'm new to the TurboCoupe/T5 transmission (former SuperCoupe owner). Is there a drain plug in the bottom of the transmission, or just a fill hole on the side I'll have to siphon the fluid thru? Thanks. Jeff
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 03, 2011, 09:12:06 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;362695
Could be a bent shift fork too... either way the tranny will have to come apart
Definitely NOT what I wanted to hear! :(
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 03, 2011, 11:28:10 AM
I would say that if the car is shifting into all the other gears correctly the clutch cable is most likely in good shape. Pulling the tranny is not that hard and if you go here the service manual is a free download which will walk you through pulling the top cover to inspect the unit.
I had a guy rebuild mine for $100 labor and I bought a kit from Hanlon Motorsports (there are others who sell the kits but Hanlon seems to have a really good one).
http://www.hanlonmotorsports.com/?q=node/2
The only problem is if it has been doing this for a while there are teeth on the face of the gear could be worn which will require a new gear. I cannot remember what they are called but that is what happened on my T-5. These are all huge assumptions without pulling the tranny and tearing it down. If you do not have an aftermarket shifter with positive stop locks then it is time to get one. I would suggest the MG unit here:
http://www.mgwltd.com/mustang_shifter.shtml
I have had the Hurst and Pro 5.0 shifter and would recommend the MG over them both.
Darren
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Beau on July 03, 2011, 02:07:25 PM
Quote from: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe;362696
I'm new to the TurboCoupe/T5 transmission (former SuperCoupe owner). Is there a drain plug in the bottom of the transmission, or just a fill hole on the side I'll have to siphon the fluid thru? Thanks. Jeff
Place a jack under the T5. Disconnect driveshaft at the differential, but don't pull the shaft out yet. Unbolt transmission mount from crossmember, then unbolt crossmember and remove it. Get a large, flat pan (i have a cheapo wal mar cat litter pan, that i use..when I remember it lol) Place pan under tailshaft and carefully pull the driveshaft out lower jack a little....this will let more of the fluid run out.
During reassembly, make sure you know that NON World Class T5's use gear oil, whereas World Class T5's use ATF...sometimes people forget, and just wanted to pass that along :)
Oh, it may help if the front of the car is on ramps or blocks...obviously make sure that it's stable, and secure.
Can't enjoy your TC from 6 feet under.
Good luck and let us know how things go.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: hypostang on July 03, 2011, 02:21:33 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;362718
NON World Class T5's use gear oil, whereas World Class T5's use ATF...sometimes people forget, and just wanted to pass that along :)
Where did this information come from ? I have never seen a T-5 in a ford with anything other than Dexron/mercon fluid from the factory , so I am curious .
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Beau on July 03, 2011, 03:24:54 PM
Quote
One last piece of important information.ALL World Class T-5 use ATF oil and NOT heavy gear oil or Redline MTL! All NON-World Class T-5 use 70 wt gear oil.
From these guys: http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/t5_history.htm
That site will also tell you how to determine if you have a WC or non-WC T5.
You're welcome. :)
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Beau on July 03, 2011, 03:27:00 PM
FWIW, I used DexronIII in my T5 last summer....I too had issues shifting into second..I'm going to use a little heavier fluid this time around though...
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 03, 2011, 07:05:16 PM
I use a combination of one quart Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil and two quarts of Mobil 1 synthetic ATF in my Coupe with a WC T-5. This in combination with a positive stop shifter has yielded great results. I have beat on that T-5 with 318 rwhp / 323 rwtorque for about three years now and it still shifts silky smooth.
You will hear a lot of people say Dextron/Mercron ATF is the only thing you should use because of the synchros. I searched this and found that Tremec has given some of the synthetics the thumbs up and Mobil 1 is one of them.
I would still remove the tranny as outlined above and do a visual inspection on the internals prior to just changing the fluid and installing a good shifter. This can help but if you end up breaking the main shaft then typically its time to find another T-5 and then the smart thing to do anyhow is have it rebuilt. If the miles and service intervals are unknown on the current tranny I would strongly suggest that you just get a kit and have it gone through. $300 now is cheaper than finding another tranny down the road and building it. If you can find a tranny now for cheap and have it rebuilt while you are babying this one that would be the best way to go.
Good luck and let us know what the out come is.
Darren
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 20, 2011, 06:07:50 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;362695
Could be a bent shift fork too... either way the tranny will have to come apart
OK, I just got off the phone with a transmission shop service manager. After describing exactly how 1st & 2nd gear are acting, he seems to think it will probably be the shift fork that's causing the problem. Unfortunately, the labor to remove & replace the transmission & to tear into it to find the exact problem is about $750-800. If it's JUST a shift fork that needs replaced, he's guessing $80-100 for parts. Might as well say there goes another $1,000!! :(
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Thunder Chicken on July 20, 2011, 06:56:50 PM
A thousand bucks is a lot of money to spend on a 4-cyl T5. You'd be better off spending a couple hundred for a Fox Mustang 4-cyl T5. Then use some of the money you save for a positive stop shifter to prevent it happening again :D
...and then you'd have the opportunity to take the old tranny apart and check what broke and also learn how everything works. If you screw it up who cares, it's broken anyway :hick:
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 20, 2011, 10:23:51 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;363729
A thousand bucks is a lot of money to spend on a 4-cyl T5. You'd be better off spending a couple hundred for a Fox Mustang 4-cyl T5. Then use some of the money you save for a positive stop shifter to prevent it happening again :D
...and then you'd have the opportunity to take the old tranny apart and check what broke and also learn how everything works. If you screw it up who cares, it's broken anyway :hick:
#1: Why a Fox Mustang 4-cyl T-5? #2: I could spend $200 & that transmission could need worked on also!:( #3: I don't have the mechanical ability to remove/replace said transmission.:( #4: I want to keep this TurboCoupe 100% factory original, so no shifter replacement!:) Thanks. Jeff
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Beau on July 21, 2011, 01:52:07 AM
Shop around....there's a shiznit ton of places that specialize in T5 trannys. Remember, there's about 10 million Mustangs with 'em...so there's a lot of demand for it.
There's a guy in kansas city, missouri that will build a race T5 capable of 10 sec 1/4 passes for what that STEALERship will charge you to something you could do yourself, with a book.
Removing a T5 is easy...ranks right up there with changing a heater core on these cars. In fact, I'd rather remove and reinstall the T5 than the h/c!
In short, I would NOT pay a grand for a rebuilt T5...unless it had a lot of heavy duty stuff.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 21, 2011, 03:39:12 PM
On a TC it takes about two hours from start to finish to remove the T-5. Drain it, remove the drive shaft, remove the shifter, remove any ancillary wiring and speedo cable, remove cross member, loosen and remove four bolts that secure T-5 to bell housing and bench press T-5 out of the car. From here you can take it to any person who has the knowledge to rebuild the tranny and you have saved yourself a lot of money.
If you cannot do this do to physical limitations, space limitations, tools, or turning wrenches is generally just not your thing then shop around and take it to whom you are most comfortable with which is not always Mr. Cheapo or the most expensive mechaic either. Ask for references and call them.
Darren
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 21, 2011, 04:06:24 PM
OK, my mechanic at Firestone said they refer all their transmission work to A-Transmission Masters with no negative feedback at all. I s/w the mgr. there, & they only charge $250 to pull the trans, tear it down for inspection, & replace it. Only other cost would be parts needed, which I'm hoping will only be the 1-2 shift fork, fresh trans fluid, and sales tax. Probably only be $500 max.:) If that's the case, then the next stop will be to replace the exhaust with custom-bent stainless steel from the cat back due to a couple of holes in the factory original exhaust! And still spend the same or less than the original trans shop quoted. WooHoo.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Thunder Chicken on July 21, 2011, 06:37:30 PM
Quote from: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe;363741
#1: Why a Fox Mustang 4-cyl T-5?
Quote
Because it's the same as the transmission currently in your car. The V8 T5 has a larger diameter input shaft and different gearing better suited to the low end grunt of a 5.0 than it would be to your 4-cyl turbo
Quote
#2: I could spend $200 & that transmission could need worked on also!:(
Yeah, but you could buy five of 'em before you'd spend a thousand dollars
Quote
#3: I don't have the mechanical ability to remove/replace said transmission.:(
Dropping a T5 is easy, as others have said. However, if you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself don't feel pressured. Everyone has their own skill level. A neurosurgeon might tell me brain surgery is easy :hick: That being said, if you have any friends that are mechanically inclined that you can coax into helping you for a case of beer you might try that route...
Quote
#4: I want to keep this TurboCoupe 100% factory original, so no shifter replacement!:)
I can see your point up to a point, but a shifter upgrade is a practical upgrade that will help keep you from bending another shift fork, will make the car more enjoyable to drive, and will not negatively affect the value or character of the car. And it's easily reversible, you can change shifters while sitting in the driver's seat.
Now with all that being said, if you can have it all done for under $500 go for it. The only thing you'll lose is the knowledge you'd gain by doing it yourself (with a friend's help, of course). If you've no interest in getting dirty there's no shame in that. To each his own. A shifter would still be a good idea though - it'd be insurance against having to pay that $500 again...
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 21, 2011, 09:09:55 PM
FORD type F anyone!!!!!! Just a THOUGHT!!!
I think the blocking ring is the issue (cracked). If the fork was bent it would also effect first gear. Just me may be wrong.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: 88turbo on July 21, 2011, 09:50:33 PM
Quote from: hypostang;362719
Where did this information come from ? I have never seen a T-5 in a ford with anything other than Dexron/mercon fluid from the factory , so I am curious .
you can also use SAE 50 engine oil as it wont break down and is thicker. straight from my tranny guy
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 21, 2011, 10:42:29 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;363781
FORD type F anyone!!!!!! Just a THOUGHT!!!
I think the blocking ring is the issue (cracked). If the fork was bent it would also effect first gear. Just me may be wrong.
Yes, it's also a little hard going into 1st gear!! Just nothing like 2nd gear is. After I get the transmission fixed next week, the headliner replaced in 2 weeks, and the exhaust somewhere in between, there probably won't be any $$$ left over for a new shifter!!:( If there IS enough $$$ left over, what shifter is the best one y'all recommend, and where is the best place to get said shifter? Thanks! Jeff
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Beau on July 22, 2011, 01:18:39 AM
While they're there, have the rebuilder toss in a steel bearing retainer...they're only about 45-50 bucks, and worth it, at that.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 22, 2011, 06:00:52 AM
Ok you did not mention First gear. So i just figured you were only dealing with second. Makes no difference because once the BOX is ripped down it will be the deciding factor.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 22, 2011, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;363797
While they're there, have the rebuilder toss in a steel bearing retainer...they're only about 45-50 bucks, and worth it, at that.
I'm assuming this would be in place of a nylon plastic retainer?
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 22, 2011, 08:45:50 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;363805
Ok you did not mention First gear. So i just figured you were only dealing with second. Makes no difference because once the BOX is ripped down it will be the deciding factor.
No doubt! I'm sure hoping the shift fork is all it needs, to keep the cost down.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Beau on July 22, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
Quote from: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe;363812
I'm assuming this would be in place of a nylon plastic retainer?
No. It's the piece around the input shaft that holds a bearing. The stock one is aluminum, and will cause poor shifting, with mileage. The transmission will be out, it's about a 2 minute job to replace it.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 22, 2011, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;363818
No. It's the piece around the input shaft that holds a bearing. The stock one is aluminum, and will cause poor shifting, with mileage. The transmission will be out, it's about a 2 minute job to replace it.
OK, thanks!
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 26, 2011, 07:51:43 PM
OK, the results are in! It was the shifter forks! It should be all back together & out for the test drive in the morning. Ready for pickup around 10:00 am. Unfortunately, I'll be on my way to work at that time.:( Won't be able to pick it up until after I get home from work about 7:30. WooHoo! Total cost only $320. Plenty of money left over to replace my rusting factory original exhaust with 100% stainless steel & a free-flowing ler!!
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 27, 2011, 11:22:08 AM
Man that is fantastic news! When you get that exhaust going start another thread and post up on the details!
Darren
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Clayton on July 27, 2011, 02:43:21 PM
to answer your question, I love my steeda tri-ax shifter. the hurst short throw is nice too.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 28, 2011, 08:08:23 PM
Quote from: 87thunderbirdBlackJack;364143
to answer your question, I love my steeda tri-ax shifter. the hurst short throw is nice too.
Hate to disappoint, but I'm sticking with the factory shifter. I have mounted a Hurst T-Handle on it in order to keep the mint condition original TURBO embossed brand new! ;) The transmission shifts LIKE NEW after the repairs. WOOHOO!
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: hypostang on July 29, 2011, 12:28:57 PM
Quote from: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe;364228
Hate to disappoint, but I'm sticking with the factory shifter.!
If you ever drove a car with an after market shifter , it would be you who were disappointed , The stock shifter feels like a baseball bat in a 55 gallon drum of water in comparison
But it's your car so do what you wish
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Beau on July 29, 2011, 12:43:58 PM
Aftermarket shifter = 75-100 bucks...
Bent fork replacement = 320 bucks...
Yup, gotta pay to be "original".
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 29, 2011, 07:39:03 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;364250
Aftermarket shifter = 75-100 bucks...
Bent fork replacement = 320 bucks...
Yup, gotta pay to be "original".
No worrys, the way I baby my garage queens, don't foresee any more problems!
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Clayton on July 30, 2011, 04:04:08 PM
you can always keep the stock handle and along with the boot the keep the stock looks... but put a short throw base under it all and your pattern will tighten up quite a bit. it makes the difference. but to each their own
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: '85T-BirdTurboCoupe on July 31, 2011, 09:30:08 AM
Quote from: 87thunderbirdBlackJack;364309
you can always keep the stock handle and along with the boot the keep the stock looks... but put a short throw base under it all and your pattern will tighten up quite a bit. it makes the difference. but to each their own
I actually have a shifter base from back when I had my '86 SVO Mustang. Don't really know the details on it, but it was probably factory. I'll have to dig it out & see.
Title: T-5 2nd gear problems on my '85 TC
Post by: Clayton on July 31, 2011, 09:57:50 AM
Well, when I had my factory shifter in the t5 I have now.. it was tight no slop or anything. I got a very very sweet deal on the tri-ax base put it in and believe it or not my pattern changed from about 3/8" side to side travel and about 2 inches back and forth to about 1/4 inch side to side to 1 1/2 inch back and forth
I tell ya it was so tight if you werent paying attention comming out of 2nd into 3rd youd hit 5th. Its very nice, and tight as a drum friend. The tri-ax new is about 150 from UPR and its well worth it.
Just food for thought. I let my buddy drive it with the factory base and he thought I had a short throw in it already. After I put it in he almost didnt want to get out of the car.