After I installed the intake and 70mm t-body, when I turn the a/c on, the engine starts to get warmer than it should. It hasn't overheated, but it is getting too hot.Fan is working great, timing at 12 degrees, no leaks anywhere......the thermostat seems fine (the engine stays down below the half way mark with the ac off.). Maybe i need a cooler thermostat? The one I have (not sure what temp rating) is a stock replacement piece for the 5.0 Sport. I may drain the coolant and just run distilled water, water cooler, and some anti corrosion stuff for the radiator that prevents rust.
What radiator, and how old is it?
aluminum factory style replacement and it's less than a year old.
what was your timing before, when it didn't overheat??? what else was changed when you did the intake
The timing was at 14 degrees, now it's at 12, and I changed the intake (upper and lower), throttle body and spacer....I'll probably bump the timing up to 14 (I think it's good with my combo), and I'll do as I stated above, run straight distilled water, water wetter, and anti corrosion stuff. See what happens from there.
I really haven't used the a/c much at all since it's been done. haven't needed to. Also, it's now hitting temps in the high 90's. It may have had the same effect before, and I didn't leave it on long enough to notice. Either way, gotta figure it out.
It has been really hot lately, but mine has been running cool with the AC on. Is it a aftermarket temp gauge?
How warm is it getting? Just a little warmer than normal or near the overheating line? My T-bird runs a bit warmer than normal when it's 90* and I'm running the A/C. I'm running a 180* thermostat. This might be normal for your car when it's hot. It may have run warm with the GT40 intake but since you never ran it in the heat with the A/C on it's imposible to know for sure.
Just a thought but do you have the rubber air dam under the front bumper? With the solid TC header panel you need that air dam to deflect air up to the radiator.
The temp gauge is stock, but has never let me down. I do have an air dam. I have a Mach 1 chin spoiler. The temp gets right near the overheat line. Too close for comfort. I'll start with the water (I mentioned above) and see what happens. After that, maybe a bigger radiator if I have to.
You have to know how hot the engine actually is. Check the return hose temp. TOP HOSE with an inferred temp gauge. If its over 220* its running hot. Make sure your radiator is flow tested to specks and clean inside. You really have to run a mixture of 50/50 coolant otherwise the engine will really over heat. Remember coolant boils at much hotter temps than water. Also the electronic sensors are designed for coolant not water. Some will argue that point but several dealer bulletins confirm this. Also is the radiator the stock one and is the AC overcharged. Many novice mechanics overcharge the AC and drive the high side pressure through the moon. Other than that the radiator may be clogged with deposits. Good luck Tom
The current radiator is just a few months old, aluminum version of the factory style radiator. With a/c, no grille on the car, somewhat modded 5.0, and daily temps around 100 degrees already (15 to 20 degrees hotter very soon), it may be those conditions. I will see about a temp check on the hose. I still want to get the bigger 3 row radiator. It can't hurt in this area.
You have to find out why your car is running hot before throwing parts at it. Is the air cooling the coolant does the radiator have the proper FIN COUNT. Does yhe coolant stay in the radiator long enough for the fan to cool it. And what type of fan is the car running. If its a clutch fan is it operating properly? A larger 3 row radiator may have more tubes and less FIN COUNT. What is the fin count on the stock radiator and what is the fin count on the new one??? Sometimes BIGGER IS NOT BETTER. Also is the radiator cap holding pressure??? Remember this the water cools the engine. The radiator spreads out the hot coolant and the air cools the coolant. When this is maxed out the engine runs hot. Do you have enough air flow through the radiator and is the radiator transferring enough heat for the fan to dissipate it. Good luck Tom
I have no idea what the fin count is. I have a Taurus fan doing the cooling. As far as proper airflow....Hard to say. I have the TC header panel, no grille. The car isn't over heating, it's just getting closer to the hot side than I am comfortable with. Before I added a/c, it always dd great. Now, installing a condenser in front of the radiator, the ambient heat here, thin radiator, no grille, and a lot of stop and go slow driving, it all adds up. I do understand how how the water, radiator, fan system cools and it's function, and I don't throw parts at the car. I do believe a larger radiator can't hurt. Will it cure the problem? Maybe, maybe not, but it is something I have wanted to do anyway, so now is the time. I've got some more studying on the Sport to do before I have all my answers (of just "answer"). I haven't really had any time to check much out. Without the a/c running, the gauge goes just a little over the half way mark. Not too bad. With the a/c running, close to hot, but in the "normal" range.
Advance the timing to 14* or 15* and increase the idle with your foot to 1000RPM and see if it makes a difference. The older carb/dist set-ups had a temp sender that would allow full vacuum to the vacuum advance which would advance the timing and raise the idle speed to lower the high temp. It's worth a try.
how many cores are in the one you got now? 2?... You said it's a stock replacement?
I would go with the 3.
Is your fan a dbl or single fan?
Why not simply pull out your t-stat and see if it runs on the cool.side if it does u need a new one and by pulling it out it wouldn't cost you anything but time
I'll be advancing the timing to 14. That's where it was before the intake swap. It's at 12 right now.
The fan is a large single fan unit from a Taurus. Nice piece. The radiator I have now is pretty thin. A 3 row will be had soon.
Is there any way you can get an aftermarket temperature gauge on it and confirm what the temperatures actually are? The Taurus fan should be more than adequate. When I lived in OKC I ran a Mark VIII fan with a stock style three row radiator (GoDan brand, it's all over the Mustang forums and I can post the part number if needed) with AC and it ran about 195 with a 180 T-Stat in traffic. On the highway it ran about 180.
The stock radiators cannot handle much of a performance jump as they are sized for what the car made stock. Upgrade the radiator and you will be happy. I ran the same radiator (3 row GoDan) in my Bird with a stock clutch style fan and it kept it cool all the time in Lawton. The new setup is the same radiator, Mark VIII, and a DCControl just like my Coupe.
Darren
I can see a couple of possible problems since the intake swap after thinking about it.
1. You may have a bad thermostat (if you replaced the old one with a brand new one when you swapped the intake).
2. There may be a problem with the temp sender wiring causing it to read high.
I just had my T-bird out this week in 97* humid temps with the A/C on full. The stock 23 year old radiator has a big trans cooler and the condesor in front of it and a 9 blade HO fan and 5.0 Mustang police interceptor fan clutch behind it. The temp never got more than a bit beyond the half way point.
Hold up on that car young GENTLEMEN,The TC front clip must have the valance installed or it will overheat. You may just be starving the radiator of incoming air. Do you have the lower valence installed?? Fin count is the number of fins PER INCH OF COOLING TUBE. Regular radiators run ABOUT 16. HD runs app 18 And super duty"s have vertical as well as horizontal. Measure the fin count to see if you have a HD COOLING BOX. Good luck
i have a Mach 1 chin spoiler on the car. It scoops forward and draws a lot of air when the car is moving. Like I said, no grille, thin radiator,wicked heat and slow driving.
The thermostat is the same one I had on the GT-40 intake. It was fine. I really think it's the radiator. I'll look to find a thermometer and see the actual temp. I'm STILL saying radiator.
Aerocoupe.....YOU know the blazing heat I'm talking about....and it hasn't even reached our "real" summer time yet. Looking at over 102 degrees for Monday. August should pretty much burn everything to the ground....then burn the ground......
Is this the first summer with the new motor and A/C?
Yep. I had the engine last summer, but no a/c.
I ordered my last one from here:
http://www.npdcool.com/radiator/product_info.php/cPath/21_389_3868_15736/products_id/30138
They have almost doubled in the last ten years.
Darren
I saw a few on Ebay, and one of my local friends got one for his Stang and was very pleased with it. It's an all aluminum 3 row radiator (probably puppiesanese made), but it has great welds, hasn't leaked at all, and after about 8 months, he's still very pleased.
I'm just looking around, but may go with it. It fits the budget for the Sport (a little over zero dollars.LOL), and as I stated, it's been great in my friend's car. Here it is....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180679048014&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
I ordered a new aluminum 3 row radiator today. Hopefully it'll be here by the weekend (I'll be off work) and I'll have a full report about it, and the results after I install it.
This is the one I ordered...........
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330560876149&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
It fit the Sport's budget, and as I stated, a report with pics will be posted.
O.K., running around with no a/c, the temp is almost, but not quite to the half way mark. I turn the a/c on, everything is O.K. for a short while, then boom, really warm. I think I'm going to swap the water temp sender (It was on the intake) and see what happens. I'll also swap the thermostat. maybe it too is at fault. First the sender.....if I can get to it. That Trick Flow intake is massive. Not much room, and I really don't want to have to pull the upper because I'll have to pull the strut tower brace. Oh well, gotta do what I gotta do.
What are the TEMP readings in and out of the radiator??? This will tell you the efficiency of your radiator. Did you take readings??? What is the FIN COUNT????? If the new radiator has a poor fin count it cant transfer HEAT. Just curious. It most likely is adequate. But the fin count is KEY TO COOLING not the amount of rows to some extent.
Just some info!!
Copper is Better than Aluminum
If you want to maximize cooling in your vehicle high-performance vehicle, you should consider choosing a copper or copper/brass radiator rather than an aluminum one. Copper is a much better conductor of heat than aluminum, and can help increase cooling performance considerably. Many copper radiators have copper fins, but use brass tubes.
Adding another row of tubes has other effects. It provides another path for the coolant, resulting in lower coolant flow velocities through the tubes. Optimum coolant flow velocity through the radiator tubes is about 6 to 8 feet per second. If the flow rate becomes low enough, laminar flow occurs, creating a boundary layer of coolant along the walls of the tubes. This boundary layer, or very slowly moving layer of coolant, acts as an insulator and retards heat transfer. Going to a smaller tube size when adding a row of tubes is one way to keep the coolant flow rates up in the tubes to help prevent the formation of a boundary layer. Another way is to use dimpled tubes, which are commonly used in low flow applications.
Like i explained above bigger is not always better.
Note 16 fins are about the best count for cooling a high performance engine. If the count goes higher it can restrict air flow in some cases.
Temps? I have no idea, and no way to take them. I can't go buy another radiator, so, that's out of the question. In normal driving, it seems fine. When the a/c is on, it heats up.
My engine is similar to yours and it runs fine with the A/C on in 90*+ heat with the stock 23 year old radiator. I do have a 9 blade HO fan and police interceptor fan clutch. Maybe your engine fan is at fault? Perhaps the electric fan you're using isn't pulling enough air?
That's a thought. I keep saying I have a Taurus fan (out of habit), but actually, it's a Taurus shroud with an aftermarket fan. The Taurus fan motor ped out and I needed a quick replacement. I'll grab another Taurus fan Monday (or Tuesday) depending about the holiday.
With the new radiator, no engine driven fan would even fit anymore.
Drove the car after work for a while, played around with the a/c on.....a/c off......driving down the highway, etc....I think I have a weak a$$ fan. I'm getting another Taurus fan Tuesday. I'll post my results after that. I still may go with a 180 degree stat as well. I'll install that after the fan. One part at a time.I'm betting the fan.
How does the new rad. not allow enough room for a engine driven fan? I have a performance rad. thats about 2-2.5" thick and my stock fan and shroud fit fine.
Yeah, I was tired and not thinking. There's room. If I pull the electric fan off. LOL. I was hot and miserable, and remembered when I wrote this that I was thinking about the space between the fan motor and the water pump pulley. Not the distance between the pulley and the radiator. LOL. I'm still going with an electric fan.
maybe you just need a bigger fan.... or a double fan
When I'm at the yard, I'll probably grab a Taurus dual fan, and a Taurus single fan and see which one I like the most. The single big fan did GREAT the past few years until the motor quit.
So what was the solution??
Not sure yet. I'll hopefully have it figured out Tuesday after my salvage yard run. I'm going to grab another Taurus fan (or two) and install one, hopefully that'll do the trick. If that IS the problem, I may still add a 180 degree stat. It's been 02 degrees here every day for over a week with no end in sight. Crazy heat.
Vinnie,
How are you controlling the fan? Is it just an on/off switch with large relays or do you have an actual fan controller?
Darren
I actually leave mine on high all the time.
Just for the record leaving a fan on all the time costs you some hp and drag. The fans should not run constantly. It defeats the whole electric fan theory. If the AC is on then the fans should work on LOW speed In traffic. but on the HIGHWAY it should be OFF. Unless the cooling system is in distress.
http://dccontrol.com/introf2.htm
I think the whole theory behind a controller is to vary the fan speed with relation to the temperature of the exiting heat media out of the heat exchanger.
Darren
I doubt I'm losing any power I can feel, and before I swapped the Taurus fan with the replacement fan, I never had any issues and any time of the year for years. The fan was old and it died. I'm getting a replacement this week and we'll see what happens.
I've heard many people use the DCC controllers. I could get one, but would it really help so much more than letting the fan run? As I stated, I think the car is running strong enough that any power loss is negligible.
I'm going to agree with Tom here, having it run all the time defeats the purpose of an electric fan .. I think you should look into a controller :)
Maybe I'm not understanding, but if it's on all the time, how can that hurt. Like the clutchless engine driven fans that always blow. I'd think that yes, maybe it draws a little power, costs a couple of horsepower, but how could it impair the function?
OK here is what i would do. Use a 2 speed taurus fan and hook the low speed into a thermostat to come on at lets say 200* Then hook the high speed to a thermostat that comes on at lets say 215*. I would also hook the high speed portion to the high side AC closure switch to bring the fan on when the high side presures approach lets say 260LBS or so. That is how its dun today. Having the fan run all the time slows the car down from push back of the incoming air at higher speeds. It works like an air dam. Their is no reason a fan should have to work at highway speeds. It also is NG for the fan. Most fans are not continuous run units for the most part. ( some are in later model cars at low speed). It also draws high current which overloads the ALT. Did you check your ac unit for proper charge. If the unit is over charged the Condenser heat will be through the MOON. This head is directed directly into the incoming air the radiator sees. I for the life of me cant understand the problem you are having. I have build many AC equipped 347 stroker high HP motors that run very COOL. Most have 2 row radiators and no issues. Did you test actual temp numbers and not relie on the gauge in the car. An engine of modern times will run at or below 210* is normal today. If you cant cool that motor with a 2 row or 3 row 16 count radiator with a good engine fan you have trouble else where. Like i mentioned before a TC front CLIP needs the TC valance. Other wise the air is bypassed past the radiator and the car will overheat at highway speeds. Does it run hot in traffic or on the highway??? Good luck and thanks
Read the link I posted and I think it will answer your questions Vinnie. I hammered two Mark VIII fan motors before installing the controller and the diode and now this motor is going on seven years old.
Darren
The car has an air dam, and on the highway, it is running more "normal" according to the gauge. I don't have access to an electronic temp gauge. In town, not so great. That's why I think the fan I have is not as good as the Taurus fan. When I had the Taurus fan (for a few years), it was always cool,at any speed, at any time of the year.
I haven't had the pressure checked in the a/c. I'll try to run the car over where they did the work and see if they can check it.
I may get a controller. I'll look into them and how they are installed (I HATE electrical stuff.....that's not a secret) and what all is involved. I've read about people installing them, and it baffles me. Never put a lot of thought into it.
What I need......I need a diagram of how to wire everything and install a fan controller, as if it was explaining to a 6 year old.
I also need advice on an affordable controller that works well......AFFORDABLE !!!
Vinnie, hope this is what ya need:
http://www.dccontrol.com/fancontrol.htm
i just got finished reading all of that from the post above. I think that 2 speed kit is what I need. First I'll grab a couple of fans (I like extras), and go from there. One piece at a time. I have no funds (just got an NOS passenger side head light and corner signal light). Come to think of it, I never have funds for the Sport.....but we manage to get it done. I'm posting my throttle body and spacer now. They have to go.I can't use them any more.
Glad I happened to think of that outfit...I'm gonna order the 2 speed kit myself...I have a Taurus fan also.
Better to be cool, than to be a tool..lol
I'll keep this thread updated til the problem is resolved.
Ive used the more expensive controller from DCC before, it was a great unit. I am wanting to try that cheaper 2 speed controller also. Let me know how it works out Vinnie.
Be patient. I have to gather funds for all of this. I just bought a few parts, and funds are below zero.
I have the controller for the Mark VIII fans and helped a buddy wire up the one for the Taurus fan and it works like a champ! Keeps his 408 in a 69 Mustang FB cool. Vinnie, He lives in Lawton and has had zero issues with the heat. No AC but he has a bunch more cubes and is putting down over 600 on the rear wheels.
Darren
I'll be gathering parts and getting it all together. Takes time when you work on a zero dollar budget.....literally.
Forgot to mention that the DCController comes with all the wiring you need and really good instructions. Brian Baskin ownes the company and is really good to deal with. I will say that if you get a fan from the salvage yard get the factory pigtail that plugs into it as that makes life much easier.
Darren
Yeah, I did that on the last one. The plug makes it nice when you need to pull the radiator with the fan connected to it.
I installed the 180 degree thermostat this evening. I HATE swapping stats on the 5.0. Anyway, done. I'll drive it a little tomorrow and then swap the fan out, then, another update.
I used a short 5/16" stud from a carb type intake in the lower thermostat housing mounting hole, and after cutting off the obstruction on the water pump in that area it made thermostat changes much easier. A friend had an overheat issue with his AC on, and we got a pusher fan from the bone yard from a Probe and installed it in front of the condenser. It is wired through a relay to come on only with the AC compressor on. When the compressor cycles, the fan shuts off. It is triggered off the 12v wire that engages the AC clutch. I also made sure that the high side pressure didn't go over 200psi without the fan, with R12. Haven't tried R134 in it yet, as i still had some 12 lying around and like it better than 134.
Well, for now, I've yet to test drive the Sport. I installed the 180 degree thermostat yesterday, and the replacement Taurus fan today. I made to small supports from aluminum to hold the bottom of the fan in place, and those electric fan zip tie mount things at each corner with a rubber "cushion" on the sides of the shroud where it meets the radiator. I'll take the Sport out later and see what happens.
As far as a pusher fan...I hope I don't need one now. the Taurus fan pulls copious amounts of air. The Temporary Autozone replacement is .
I'll report in after the test drive.
The following may be of some useful info for anyone considering a fan/controller upgrade......hope it helps.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,23145.0.html
Man, that's a lot of reading.LOL.
......and pictures too....LOL
I'll post a pic of mine tomorrow. I have it installed to run on high until I can get the controller. Worked great for years with the last fan without the controller.......like having it on a toggle switch, but without the switch...... It comes on when I start the car, goes off when I turn the car off..
OK I gotta ask because I'm curious .... why use an electric fan if you are going to have it run all the time ? Why not just use an engine driven fan?
I don't have an engine driven fan or a shroud. If something bad happens, I can always look for those parts I suppose. Besides, I already stated that when the funds allow, I'm getting a DCC controller for the two speed fan. No funds for a while though. After the radiator, differential girdle (on top of the tool box),polished throttle body and spacer, and a few other things, funds are non-existent.
You know, out of curiosity....I wonder how much CFM's an engine driven fan (clutch or clutchless) would deliver. Does anyone know?
Battery operated
LS1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 4800 cfm
2 fans on - 9500cfm
LT1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5000 cfm
2 fans on - 8700 cfm
Dodge Fan (both fans are always on - 2 speed)
Slow speed - 3700 cfm
High Speed 9000 cfm
Ford Taurus (1 fan two speed)
Slow speed - 2800 CFM
High speed - 5600 CFM
Alternator Powered
LS1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5100 cfm
2 fans on - 10500cfm
LT1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5200 cfm
2 fans on - 9500 cfm
Dodge Fan (both fans are always on - 2 speed)
Slow speed - 4200 cfm
High Speed 10400 cfm
Ford Taurus (1 fan two speed)
Slow speed - 3200 CFM
High speed - 6000 CFM
As you can see the Taurus fan is not up to the job of a GOOD fan setup. Everyone goes nuts to find them and in my experiance they are marginal at best in a V8 HP setup. Compair the numbers. Thanks
I know the Taurus fan is cooling the Sport like crazy. I'll get a controller for it next time funds are available for the Sport. It was 105 degrees today,and it did a super job. There's always a better part out there, but this one working.
Thats GOOD because the fan really does not move much air. But if its doing the job thats GREAT. Then why the long post?? I thought you were running HOT??????? I am Confused ??? You asked for CFM numbers on mechanical fans. I have those also. But no one uses them any more. They are inefficient and basically waste HP. I gave you some numbers to answer your question. Sorry for the numbers but i did not design the Taurus Fan Ford did. I will refrain from clouding the issue with facts. Thanks
The long post is an update to where the car is now, and my current fix for it. The car never over heated, it ran hotter than I was comfortable with before I installed this replacement Taurus fan. Although the fan isn't a GM fan, it is working fine right now since the fan install Sunday.
The reason I wanted to know the numbers on the mechanical fan (engine driven) was out of curiosity. It's that simple.....Just wanted to know. I knew what the Taurus fan produced, but never asked for GM specs, although I appreciate your time giving them. They may come in handy for the future, and don't be sorry for the Taurus CFM numbers....they are working for me just fine.
I have no doubt that there are better fans out there, but I have never been let down by a good Taurus fan either. Also, you need to understand, I work on a zero dollar budget with this Sport. meaning, not a single dime comes from my paycheck to build it, and I also have to use parts that I have easily accessible in a short amount of time. I didn't have time to order parts online, or funds to buy new GM parts. I'm sure anything any of us build, there's someone else who can do it better, with better parts, on a bigger budget. As the Sport sits this morning, it's running great, strong, and everything is working well. The car is an example of what can be done to make a salvage yard very functional for no money, and still have great fun and function.
I'm not in a competition with anyone. That takes the edge off for me. I build it to fit my needs, and be functional, and everything is working as it should. It's not pro built, and I apparently don't have near the knowledge on these matters and others as you, but so far, I've done O.K..
Please don't get me wrong. I seriously do appreciate your time and your talent in these things, but don't be offended or tech angry if I don't do it your way. I do understand that there are many better ways and better parts that out power, out flow, or just plain work better. I have to work with what I have to work with. So far so good, and again, thanks.
I think at times, it's easy to way over think things and make things a lot more complicated than they need to be. It reminds me of a saying....
"I asked for the time, not how you built the clock"
Any ideas about a Grand Prix fan, I yanked it out of my daughters car 3 years ago when she totaled it, and was hoping to use it in my cougar. I'm not sure how they compare to other fans. I don't want to go through all that work to find out it won't be enough to cool it
LSI, LTI........................ Whats that? :shakeass:
Any idea of the amp draw on those fans? Honestly, Ive never even see one of those cars in the yard.
From the looks of the cfm ratings when you compare battery to alternator specs, it looks like the Taurus set up is most efficient. How do the GM/Dodge shrouds line up to a Fox type radiator?
Well, it's (the Taurus fan) a proven success with the Fox body cars. Yes, there are more powerful fans, but, the Taurus fans are very popular with the Fox body crowd for a reason....they do work well. My car is doing great, and I can't complain today at 107 degrees outside. There's always other options, and it's up to the person doing the swap to decide what route they need to go.
What year and model Taurus fan should I look for at the boneyard?
The single fan 3.8 is the one of choice, but, the single fan 3.0 fan is also big and strong enough to cool the car....I know because I used them both. The 3.0 fan shroud fit perfectly on our radiators, and still does a great job, and, the 3.0 and 3.8 fans are VERY plentiful at almost any boneyard for cheap. Also new if you choose to go that route. I've seen a few crazy deals on new ones pop up from time to time on Ebay. As shown by the numbers from Tom above, it may not flow like the others he posted, but at the temps we're reaching here, and the Sport running around town with no grille, stop and go, and the gauge just barely hits the halfway mark.....that's good enough for me. If you need a lot more, grab the other ones. As I stated, there's a reason so many use them and not the others....they work....and they work very well. I can't believe every Fox body owner is wrong.