Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: magwheels on May 06, 2011, 03:15:17 PM

Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on May 06, 2011, 03:15:17 PM
Purchased a new (not rebuilt/remanufactured) 5.0L. Was meant for a 97 Explorer.  All labels on the intake, valve cover gasket etc match stating "prototype".  Apparently it was built in 97, sat in a dealership, than sold along with other motors.  Engine is complete from coil packs to oil pan. GTP heads, intake etc. All paint marks still there, barely any flash rust on the bare metal.  Pics coming soon.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 06, 2011, 03:50:37 PM
Is that the one I saw on Ebay?
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on May 06, 2011, 04:38:24 PM
It may have been.  He said it was on ebay the other month.  I spotted it at the Jefferson Swap meet.  I called him back on it this week and he said it was relisted, but I told him I'd buy it if he'd deliver it from chicago.  It still has the Ford crate with "5.0L" stenciled on the side.
  I see you're from OK, I was just in the Tulsa/Joplin/Kc area looking for old cars,  I'd love to move around that area someday.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 06, 2011, 05:14:00 PM
I'm way down in South Central Ok. 30 miles from Texas. I have my Mountaineer engine (same as Explorer) that I bought for $125.00 and it had 15,xxx miles on it. Love it. What are you going to do with the engine?
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Beau on May 07, 2011, 03:03:32 AM
I may be wrong, but I'm not sure they put P heads on '97 5.0's?

Of course, that isn't to say someone had a set, slapped on it...etc

Anyway, sounds like a great score, I'd love to find something like that. Distributor, HO cam, headers. Done. Well, till Tax time, then a supercharger, lol.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 07, 2011, 08:50:38 AM
I believe that in late '97 is when they started using the "P" engines.The "P" heads are said to be one of Fords best cast iron heads. Better compression and plug angle than the GT-40's. Most people are scared of the "P" heads due to the revised plug angle, and the myth that special heads must be used. Not true. I use my BBK unequal length shorty headers and plug wires with a 90 degree boot. Nothing to it. I also had the heads ported and a set of Trick Flow springs installed. If nothing else, you will need to replace the valve springs. They are way too soft for performance use.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: thunderjet302 on May 07, 2011, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;359499

Anyway, sounds like a great score, I'd love to find something like that. Distributor, HO cam, headers. Done. Well, till Tax time, then a supercharger, lol.


I's also add a fox timing cover and water pump. That way you can use the Fox 5.0 accessories on the front. You would also need a 65mm or 70mm Fox throttle body and EGR spacer as well.
 
Quote from: vinnietbird;359503
I believe that in late '97 is when they started using the "P" engines.The "P" heads are said to be one of Fords best cast iron heads. Better compression and plug angle than the GT-40's. Most people are scared of the "P" heads due to the revised plug angle, and the myth that special heads must be used. Not true. I use my BBK unequal length shorty headers and plug wires with a 90 degree boot. Nothing to it. I also had the heads ported and a set of Trick Flow springs installed. If nothing else, you will need to replace the valve springs. They are way too soft for performance use.


+1 on the valve springs. Even with a stock HO cam you will run into trouble. IIRC the max lift the stock GT40P springs can take before coil bind is somewhere around .500 lift.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on May 08, 2011, 12:13:14 AM
It's going in my 88 Cougar.  What's a good cam to go with?  I'm looking to keep it very streetable, nothing wild, maybe one step up from a stock Mustang.  How are the E303 cams?  Can I use the Explorer oil pan?
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Beau on May 08, 2011, 02:22:00 AM
You'll need an oil pan from a fox car for sure. If it was me, I'd use an HO cam over a letter cam for a daily driver, but some folks like the choppy idle...I do as well, but an HO cam is hard to beat..

Oh, some paint for that block... :)
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 08, 2011, 07:20:35 AM
Remove everything down to the long block, and swap on everything from a Fox 5.o....

-Fox oil pan
-Fox headers (I used BBK unequal length shorties with Taylor wires and 90 degree plug boots...zero problems)
-Fox timing cover
-Fox water pump
-Fox accessories and brackets
-valve cover (although you can use the ugly Explorer covers if you choose)
-install a distributor
-Fox harmonic balancer
-Fox oil pick-up
-threaded adapter that the oil filter screws on to
-valve springs
-drill and tap a hole into the number 5 runner for the Air temp sensor
-keep the Explorer injectors
-Mod the t-body to work for the Fox chassis (takes about 5 minutes using a stock Fox body t-body throttle lever)
-Fox body throttle body spacer (65mm to match the upper intake and throttle body)
-install the water pipes on the lower intake
-Fox fuel rails
-You can keep the Explorer thermostat housing
-Fox IAC
-Fox sensors on the lower intake
-May have to cap some holes in the lower
-

Take care to remove all of the Explorer parts intact and sell them as new on Ebay. You can make some bucks from them
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on May 09, 2011, 08:01:15 AM
What about the flywheel?  Will a smaller starter work from the 90's t-bird/cougars?  I'm also going with roller rockers.  Does this motor already have a double roller chain stock? I'm assuming the stock '89-93 Mustang ECU with MAF will work with this setup.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 09, 2011, 08:17:58 AM
No, it doesn't have a double roller timing chain. The flywheel should be fine for an AOD, and yes, the ECM and Mass Air will be fine. Remember, under the outside accessories and oil pan, it's still just a 5.0 underneath. The smaller starter from a later model 5.0 will be fine as well. You will need to pull that flywheel off and install the Fox block plate and ditch the Explorer plate. They are different.

Because of the age of the engine, even if it has never been fired, I'd also install a new rear main seal. Cheap insurance against leakage after the engine and tranny are installed.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on May 09, 2011, 10:36:55 AM
Apparently it was one of the prototype engines.  The guy said it was probably ran briefly, rocker arms loosened and then put away.  There is still some oil in the cooler/filter.  I pulled a plug and you can still see some numbers on the top of the piston. I'm assuming it wasn't broken in. This will be a summer project along with some body work, I'll try to keep you guys informed anytime progress is made
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 09, 2011, 10:53:38 AM
Even if the engine was used, due to the age, swap the rear seal and intake gaskets. Start looking for a good cam and springs, roller rockers will be nice. You really don't need much to make it a strong running engine. We're here if you need us.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: 88CougarGT on May 09, 2011, 10:59:42 AM
Thats crazy.  Looks like its got a factory oil cooler.

I can't believe ford would put better flowing heads on that engine, then choke the  out of them with those puny soda straw manifolds.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: hwy73 on May 09, 2011, 11:11:06 AM
Those exhaust manifolds are frightening looking.  I see the two coil packs on the engine.  Is that some kind of camshaft sensor in the dist. hole?  With a shaft to drive the oil pump I assume?  It is interesting to observe the evolution of these engines as they were updated through the years, yet the old 260/289 is still under there.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 09, 2011, 11:15:52 AM
The explorers and Mountaineers had the coolers on them. I sold all of the parts from mine (except the long block itself) and made three times what I paid for my engine. That helped a lot in the speedy assembly of my engine. These engines were made to push a lot of weight in the Explorers, not go fast, but with a little help, a few parts, and transplanted into a smaller vehicle, they can move........so to speak. I'd like to get a supercharger one day, but, in reality, the engine is all I need right now. Moves the Sport easily, and pulls hard.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on May 25, 2011, 03:08:52 PM
Can I use the Explorer throttle body spacer if I'm not using egr?
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 25, 2011, 04:36:01 PM
No. It is at a 90 degree angle. It can be done, but I can't imagine why. Just find a 65mm spacer, or have a stock one opened up at a machine shop.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on May 27, 2011, 12:52:43 PM
I'm having my spacer bored out here at work.  Still haven't decided on a cam yet.  Most Mustang guys say to go with a E303, more power, good idle, good power brakes.  With that in mind I'd also like a higher stall converter. What do you guys use in your automatics (AOD) for the street (brand, stall rpm)?
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: FlatBlak on May 27, 2011, 01:16:59 PM
for the most part an e303 is an "ok" cam choice, but i think there are better out there. cam choice is very important, you have to decide what you want out of your engine, what rpms you max out at safely, how much you want to spend on things such as springs, torque converter and any other mods the cam may need. figure it all out and let us know.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 27, 2011, 03:00:18 PM
Letter cams are like the factory brakes, they work but for just a little more they would have been so much better.  Call Comp Cams and get one of their techs to spec out a cam.  I you have the ability (read $$$) get with a custom cam guru and they can spec out the cam and what you will need on the heads to support it and it will be some of the best money you have spent.

http://www.camshaftinnovations.com/Default.htm (Jay Allen)

http://www.flowtechinduction.com/ (Ed Curtis)

I have an Ed Curtis grind waiting to go into my Coupe but I need to pull the heads and have them worked to get the most out of it.  This was discussed prior to me purchasing the cam so it will most likely be this summer when the guy I want to port them has a bit of a slow down in work.  Everyong was having their motors freshened up this spring so he was backed up with work.

Darren
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: hypostang on May 27, 2011, 03:17:21 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;360736
Letter cams are like the factory brakes, they work but for just a little more they would have been so much better.  Call Comp Cams and get one of their techs to spec out a cam.  I you have the ability (read $$$) get with a custom cam guru and they can spec out the cam and what you will need on the heads to support it and it will be some of the best money you have spent.

http://www.camshaftinnovations.com/Default.htm (Jay Allen)

http://www.flowtechinduction.com/ (Ed Curtis)

I have an Ed Curtis grind waiting to go into my Coupe but I need to pull the heads and have them worked to get the most out of it.  This was discussed prior to me purchasing the cam so it will most likely be this summer when the guy I want to port them has a bit of a slow down in work.  Everyong was having their motors freshened up this spring so he was backed up with work.

Darren



 Before contacting a guru there are some threads that should be read IMO

http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,30026.0.html

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152205

http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,29272.0.html

I have had no dealings with either company mentioned , but have heard NO negative  comments about Ed Curtis
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: 88CougarGT on May 27, 2011, 03:27:58 PM
I run a TFS1 and love it.  I have a 5spd with HCI upgrades.  The computer gets grumpy if I try to set the idle below 850ish.  I probably should have gotten a custom grind but I got a good deal on the TFS1.  It would probably work really well with a higher stall auto as it loves to make mid-high rpm horsepower.  It idles like a beast. 

It would run better with a tune.
-DZ
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: flylear45 on May 27, 2011, 06:34:38 PM
Hey when you get rid of the Explorer harmonic balancer and EDIS wheel and pickup I'd be interested in buying them.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on May 31, 2011, 12:53:58 PM
Finally applied some engine primer.  I'm thinking of going with a black block and cast iron grey for the heads.  Car is black.  I just don't love that 80's Ford grey.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on May 31, 2011, 05:37:14 PM
I used to like black, but it just blends in when it's in the engine bay. I went with dark Ford Blue. It pops when it's clean.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on August 30, 2011, 10:41:55 AM
I just removed the old motor last week.  I'm still in the process of cleaning the engine bay and prep it for some paint.  Just wondering why the Explorer oil pan won't work.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Kitz Kat on September 01, 2011, 05:18:29 AM
Quote from: magwheels;366367
I just removed the old motor last week.  I'm still in the process of cleaning the engine bay and prep it for some paint.  Just wondering why the Explorer oil pan won't work.
You need a dual sump pan,or it won't fit with a single.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on October 07, 2011, 10:33:01 AM
Anybody use this cam?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-35-310-8/
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Soul on October 07, 2011, 10:40:23 AM
I'm running a comp cam Hi energy 264 roller, and gotta say it is an awesome street cam, idles low and smooth. 274 is better but sacrafice some idle joy.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 07, 2011, 12:19:34 PM
I'm running this Comp Cam: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-35-308-8/

It's the Magnum cam that's one smaller than the one you are looking at. It idles smooth and makes a bunch of low end torque. You'd be happy with the one you picked as it would make a bit more top end power than the one I'm running.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: shame302 on October 07, 2011, 06:09:54 PM
+5 rep points for the avatar, Aerocoupe.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on October 11, 2011, 12:59:03 PM
I've talked with Summit and Comp.  Summit came up with these: 35-310-8, 35-308-8, 35-351-8  http://www.summitracing.com/compare.aspx , but talking with them the second time the guy said to stay under 0.500 lift with my engine/head combo, there may not be enough clearance.  Also he said the 35-512-8 cam or E303 would work with a stock converter.  Who's right?
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 11, 2011, 01:15:45 PM
I have no clearance issues with GT40P heads, 1.6 rockers, and stock HO replacement pistons. The Comp 35-308-8 I'm running has .533 lift on the intake and exhaust. Clearance issues usually come into play with long durration, high lift cams. The 35-308-8 is a low durration, high lift cam. I believe the other Comp cams you listed are the same way.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on October 13, 2011, 08:14:43 AM
Looking into this cam http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-35-512-8/
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on December 01, 2011, 01:15:56 PM
What spark plugs do you guys use with this setup, currently I installed the ones that came with the motor (motorcraft platinum)
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Soul on December 01, 2011, 03:03:19 PM
My setup is in my sig below, I ran 1.7 rockers and still have plent of clearance.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Gdub on December 03, 2011, 12:45:58 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;359541
Remove everything down to the long block, and swap on everything from a Fox 5.o....

-Fox oil pan
-Fox headers (I used BBK unequal length shorties with Taylor wires and 90 degree plug boots...zero problems)
-Fox timing cover
-Fox water pump
-Fox accessories and brackets
-valve cover (although you can use the ugly Explorer covers if you choose)
-install a distributor
-Fox harmonic balancer
-Fox oil pick-up
-threaded adapter that the oil filter screws on to
-valve springs
-drill and tap a hole into the number 5 runner for the Air temp sensor
-keep the Explorer injectors
-Mod the t-body to work for the Fox chassis (takes about 5 minutes using a stock Fox body t-body throttle lever)
-Fox body throttle body spacer (65mm to match the upper intake and throttle body)
-install the water pipes on the lower intake
-Fox fuel rails
-You can keep the Explorer thermostat housing
-Fox IAC
-Fox sensors on the lower intake
-May have to cap some holes in the lower
-

Take care to remove all of the Explorer parts intact and sell them as new on Ebay. You can make some bucks from them

 
What would be the down side of using the Explorer accessories, except the oil pan, Alt, water pump, power steering, A/C comp.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on December 06, 2011, 01:10:11 PM
Motor is installed and I fired it up a couple times. Seems to have a hard time keeping an idle at first.  I unplugged the IAC while running and nothing happend.  Also top end is ticking, maybe I need to adjust my rocker arms some more,  pics to come later.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Bruce M on December 06, 2011, 04:23:45 PM
If the engine has been sitting for a long time or has never been run it might tap for awhile. Did you prime the oil. Depending on the assembly lube if it sits for a long time it can harden and cause alot of problems with oil pressure, valve tapping, and oil drane clogs. With the valve tap, that could be caused by clogged lifters.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Shadow on December 06, 2011, 05:23:17 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;369847
Clearance issues usually come into play with long durration, high lift cams.

 

correct, and long duration cams are recommended for higher compression builds.. i ran a .554 lift/.272 duration cam with GT40P's (decked .003 for a slight compression bump) and stock HO pistons with no clearance problems.. tried a .532 lift/.290 duration cam and it was really, REALLY close to the PTV tollerance
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: vinnietbird on December 06, 2011, 10:54:51 PM
The down side would be having to mod all the lines...a/c, steering, etc. All the Fox stuff is a direct bolt on.If you're swapping to a decent cam, it all has to come off anyway.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: magwheels on December 07, 2011, 03:16:05 PM
I primed the system with the motor still on the stand just to verify oil circulation.  I primed it again before starting it.  It looks like my ISC is working, no engine codes.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Gdub on December 09, 2011, 11:23:19 AM
Ok Vinnietbird, thanks for the heads up. The plan is to have the engine compartment as slick as possible so I will be using custom made stainless hoses for the A/C and fuel and since I don't have any of the Fox stuff I will give it a try and see what happens. Do you know anyone that has used the Explorer accessories?
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: flylear45 on December 10, 2011, 05:47:31 PM
Quote from: Gdub;375090
Ok Vinnietbird, thanks for the heads up. The plan is to have the engine compartment as slick as possible so I will be using custom made stainless hoses for the A/C and fuel and since I don't have any of the Fox stuff I will give it a try and see what happens. Do you know anyone that has used the Explorer accessories?


I am.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Haystack on December 10, 2011, 06:01:47 PM
If your using the explorer parts, the pulleys are closer then a fox setup. So you either need to change waterpump/timing chain cover and the crank pulley to fox, or run the differently spaced explorer stuff.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Gdub on December 11, 2011, 11:54:47 AM
Quote from: flylear45;375196
I am.

Flylear, did you have any issues with the explorer stuff?
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: flylear45 on December 11, 2011, 12:41:35 PM
Need to re-wire for starter

Steering pump is higher than reservoir. ( Mount new reservoir above pump center line)

Steering lines don't match up.  (Make new lines or splice hard line with 2,000 psi connector)

Alternator wired differently (same as 3g swap)

Won't clear TC scoop plastic.  (remove plastic)

Steel heater lines won't work. (need mustang or 5.0 bird ones)

AC lines will need to be custom made

That's off the top of my head. If I think of anything else I'll let you know.
Title: NEW 5.0L Explorer motor
Post by: Gdub on December 19, 2011, 12:00:19 PM
Thanks FlyLear45, I will keep these things in mind. If you think of more let me know please.