I just got subframe connectors welded into the T-bird. If you don't have any on your car you really need to get some. The car rides smoother since the floor pan isn't flexing and it corners flatter. Overall it's one of the best mods I've done.
I agree it really helps. Do you have any pictures? Did you make your own or buy them made up?
I purchased mine from someone on eBay but they were so simple that the next time I would just make my own. Just some channel and flat steel.
TED
I bought them from V8Demon. They were made by Stinger, who no longer makes them. They could easily be made though but I got a deal on them. Plus I didn't want to have to find someone to make them for me.
I'll try to take some pictures in a day or two. I just have to go out to the garage and jack up the car.
I would love some that don't go through the floor. I wonder who could fab a set and send them to me.................
All you need is some channel and flat steel. The channel needs to be as wide as you subframe and about 1 inch high. Clean the subframe, lay the channel flat and tack on, lay flat steel to the side and weld solid. The one they made for me is a bit narrow and it made welding a bit harder but it worked. This may reduce you ground clearence slightly but it never been a problem for me, my exhaust is still a bit lower.
I'm sure that thunderjet302 will post pictures that will put mine to shame. But this sure did make things a lot stronger and everything better, even shutting the door is solid.
As a side note I had a 1988 Mustang on the hoist this week-end and I cannot believe how light duty they are compared to the T-bird (at least my 87 Turbo Coupe). I don't know what keep a Mustang from folding in two.
TED
I have a set that has been propped in the corner of my garage for 4 years. I need to get those welded in sometime...
I think that may go on the list over the next few months. I have a good friend who can have them welded for me.
They make a big difference. When I welded my KB ones on I could tell the difference even just driving around in the yard...
They're on my list of stuff to do as soon as I get mine in a mobile state.
Holy Ted! Where have you been hiding!
P.S. I know I need subframe connectors, but not yet! She corners pretty good as-is.
Here are the pretty pictures;).
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/DSCN2062.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/DSCN2065.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/DSCN2067.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/DSCN2066.jpg)
Thanks for the pictures. Maybe you don't need the flat plate on the side but I think it makes it a bit stronger.
TED
are the sub frame connectors t-bird specific? will a set of maximum motorsport xl full length for mustang fit?
That looks easier than I thought. I was looking at a through the floor set up I might go that route. Anyone have pics of through the floor subframes?
10 feet of 1x2 steel stock is all you need , 5 feet per side
I had the plates. The guy who welded them on (he builds cages and such for race cars) said that I didn't need them. He said they really don't add any strength over just welding them on.
Yes and no. The Mustang has a bend in the floor pan the T-bird doesn't. Mustang subframe connectors are bent down where as T-bird ones are flat. You have to bend the Mustang one flat to use them on a T-bird.
Those do look a lot easier than I thought. One of these days I'll have to have some welded in. I assume it would be safe to use the connectors as a jacking point?
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/IMG_3566.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/IMG_3567.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/IMG_3568.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/IMG_3556.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/IMG_3566.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/IMG_3567.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/IMG_3568.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/IMG_3556.jpg)
Now Ill be a pain in the ass. Do you have a pic at the rear subframe at where it goes through the floor?
Now those are real sub-frame connectors and overkill in my opinion. Would be better for road racing than drag racing, and what you need if you plan to cut off the top. Also great for side impact from a low rider.
I would think the Mustang would not work at all, the Mustang frame looks completely different and overall shorter.
TED
Someday Id like to road race in something like a street GT class as well as a trip to the strip. I'm 6'6" 300 lbs. I don't want to go much below 11.49 If the car needs monkey bars Ill never fit I look funny getting in and out now.
:punchballs:
something like this? or a diff angle?
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/Cougar%20Pass%20side%20rebuild/frame%20rails%20and%20connectors/IMG_4083.jpg)
I made them that way because of the rust.... that, and I've been known to get a little airborne before. I also like to take turns at at least 55 60 mph..
That gives me a better idea. Ill go stare at the underside of the car some more tomorrow. Maybe take a nap wile looking at it. I need new fuel lines and I put the battery in the trunk and need to run some wires so Ive got some thinking to do under there. Really wish I had a lift.
So I got a 12' piece of 2"x2" 1/8" stock Iv got the fuel lines and brake line out of the way getting read to cut it to 5' 6" and make the front cut. I cant tell from the pics how far back on the rear subframe you went or how high you went on the floor pan? any more pics would be great.
Thanks Steve
I will find more for you tonight.... hold tight, I have over 3000 pics of the car now....lol
Thanks The car is more apart than ever. I'm gonna use the drawing you gave me awhile ago. and start from there
oh yea, I forgot about that.... give me a couple hrs
Just wanted to post up a link to Global West's full length sub frames for the 83-88 Thunderbirds for those of us with no welding skills. I have these in the '83 Bird and my '93 Coupe and they are IMO the best bar none in a prefabricated subframe. I prefer the way they run on the outside of the factory subframes thus keeping some ground clearance for going over speed bumps as both of my cars are pretty low. Anyhow, just another alternative.
http://www.globalwest.net/1980-88thunderbird.html (third down on the right side)
Darren
I'll post them as I find them..
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/paint%20and%20body/IMG_5468.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/paint%20and%20body/IMG_5459.jpg)
as long as your beefing things up..... might want to do this too
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/paint%20and%20body/IMG_5460.jpg)
more interior
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/paint%20and%20body/IMG_5461.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/Rockers%20and%20quarters/IMG_3518.jpg)
Yea I should I Do have enough power to rip the control arms out. How do I do that? Suppose I should start a new thread for that?
The holes in the floor was that hammer and screw driver work or sawzall?
I bought stang battleboxes and modded them a bit... real cheap off ebay $70 when I got them
5" cutting wheel... yea, think it's time for a build thread....
don't think i have many good pics from underneath... I could take some.... I know where the car is....lol
Don't worry about the boxes I'm planning a 31 spline rear end swap and CHE control arms next year. I wont be doing any hole shots with slicks on the bottle this year. I just need to get what Ive got apart back together so it can go for paint. Its supposed to be there in a week or two. At the rate I'm going I might have to push it. Every time I turn around it I should do this while it in this stage If I keep going Aghhh
Hey guys. I was wondering... For those of you who have used 1" by 2" box tubing for your sub frame connectors, what wall thickness did you use? The thickest walled 1" by 2" box tubing I can find around here has walls that are 1/8" thick. Is that what most of you used?. I considered using Global West's SFC's, but I saw that it's round tubing AND it has bends in it. I can't see how they could be very strong. I'm also not keen on their price tag either compared to just buying box tubing. Since I don't plan to lower this car, should I use 2" by 2" box tube with a 1/4" wall and call it a day? That would be nice and strong at least.
What do you think?
.120" wall (1/8") is plenty.
Roll cages have bends in them so I guess you should not trust them either...really? The price tag thing I can understand but bends? To quote Chris Carter on SportsCenter, "Come on man!"
Darren
my race cars are built out of 1-1/4" .083 wall chromo and have more bends than you can shake a stick at.. i guess they're not strong either lol
i have the global west SFC's on my capri.. they're pretty sturdy all on their own.. i added extra cross bracing tubes and i'm 10 times happier with them, than any square tube SFC's i've ever owned or installed
The tubing those Global West subframes are made of looks small to me. I thought someone here said they have thin walls too. I thought roll cages were made out of 2" tubing that's fairly heavy-walled.
DAMINC you wouldn't happen to have measurements on your subframe connectors? I'd like to put a set together since I'm 6' and well over large and could really enjoy stiffening up my bird.
I know tubing can still be strong if it has bends in it if it's the right size, or if it's braced properly. My hesitation about the Global West subframes is how unsubstantial they look to me and the amount of distance they would span without the bracing a roll cage, or tube chassis has to strengthen them. I'm in the dark here about the Global West subframes, because I really don't have much info to go on about what size their tubing is, or whether the tubing is thin, or not. While the Global West subframes cost more than I want to spend right now, I'd sure like to see any pics you might have of how you set yours up!
Thanks for those pics of Daminc's subframe/jacking rails Strokerbird, but I was trying to stay away from having to cut the floor the way Daminc had to. I'm just planning on installing full-length subframes made out of the same 1" by 2" box tubing a lot of people here used to make theirs. I'm not a chassis expert, so I thought it would be a good idea to ask if the 1/8" wall box tubing I found would be strong enough. I'm planning on using seat brackets and gusset plates to help hold the box tubing to the subframes after the tubing has been welded to the subframes.
i'll see if i have any.. i didn't have a camera at the time. or a phone with a camera that was worth a , for that matter.. the only pics i really have are 1's my buddy took during the build
I didn't mean to repost his pics lol. Still trying to figure out the forum. But I'm really wanting to stiffen up the car for cornering and fun driving since the only "dragstrip" we have in my area is an 1/8th mile and it's a bit of a waste of time. I like when I can make a car handle like it's on rails.
I'll tell you what Stroker, if you REALLY want to lock your car up, you should think about installing frame connectors above the sub frames. Darren (Aerocoupe) sent me some info on how to install them. If I had the means to do it right now, I would, but I'm getting hammered with bills.
There's a wrong measurement in the last diag brace spacing in this version, i think.... but you get the idea
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/secret%20plans/IMG_3944-1.jpg)
you talking about 'through the floor' connectors?
No. These go on top of your subframes. I had never seen anything like it before. It's supposed to be a lot stronger than just installing subframe connectors.
interesting.. i'd like to read about such things
In a nutshell, you cut the floor above the subframes and install box tubes that connect the subframes from the top. When you've welded everything up and are done, you'll have a protrusion from the box tube that runs the length of the driver's footwell and the passenger side footwell. That's the only drawback to this mod I canthink of.
yeah, those are 'through the floor' subframe connectors lol
Daminc's subframe connectors are through the floors, but they're under the subframes. I though what he did was considered to be a traditional through the floor set up.
what i consider 'through the floor' is anything going in from the topside, instead of underneath.. jerry's look like semi-typical connectors with the not-so-typical jacking rail supports.. i may steal a bit of his setup (sorry jerry :p ) for my capri, to make it a little more sturdy, before i take it for it's chassis certification.. i have yet to touch the jacking rail part of it
Isn't that something? Learn something every day. So those ARE what guys are talking about when they mention "through the floors.". The nice thing about them, is that you can install them AFTER installing normal SFC's. Unlike Mustangs, I think our cars can use a single, straight box tube with no bends, or welds in the middle. It doesn't get stronger, or simpler than that.
mine are half through.... although, I did cut the floor open in the front, to weld the inside of the 2x2 to the frame too. I didn't think just welding the outside was enough.... lol
mine are half inside the front subframes. I cut them and slid them in
What I sent to 88 Blackbird 5.0 is a throught the floor subframe that ties into the lower subframe connectors. I can tell you from experience that the GW units are stout. I have a set in the Bird and a set in the Coupe. With them and only them in the car you could jack up any corner of the car and it would pick up that corner, then the opposite corner across the car, followed by the corner on the same side of the car, and leave only one tire on the ground. The doors would open and close and they stayed aligned. The addition of the upper subframes and tying them into the lower subframes made the car flatter in the corners. The lowers alone would allow some twist with the chassis loaded up going into a hard corner but with the uppers installed that was almost all but eliminated. When the six point cage was installed in the Bird I noticed zero difference in the stiffness of the car but it made me feel a bit safer.
Griggs Racing sells the upper subframes for about $320 (List, dealers are much cheaper) and they are shown here:
http://www.griggsracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=4332_4316_4375_4408&products_id=221&osCsid=b63e5cb9d0316943961db962ab882fa0
This is basically what I have in both of my cars with the GW lowers. The reason I like the GW lowers is they are full lengh and have four tie in points. They also mount on the sides of the front and rear subframes which gives my car additional ground clearance that is needed. The tubing is 1-5/8" X 0.125" roll cage tubing as stated on Summit's website and in the installation paperwork I have but I could not find this on GW's site:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GLS-918/
Anyhow, its just a personal preference for me and if you do the math round tubing will resist twisting better than rectangular or square tubing when comparing the same wall thicknesses and circumference. I will also say that ANYTHING on these cars is a huge improvement and you will notice a differnce with just about any weld-in connector.
Darren
I didn't know the GW's were that strong Darren. You said they have 4 tie-in points, but I only see 2 points where it looks like you'd weld them onto the car. Did you use seat brackets with yours?
Several companies make full length subframe connectors for the Mustangs but I don't know of many that make them for the T-Birds. GW makes full length subframes connectors which is what you see on their site. The ends on the connectors tie into the rear bulk head (where the lower control arm mounts) and the front of the car's front subframe (near where the e-brake cable comes out of the driver side inner fender hence the tab on the subframe connector to mount the e-brake cable. GW provides two brackets (not shown) that allow you to weld the rear of the car's front subframe and the front of the car's rear subframe to the body of the GW subframe connector. Hopefully that makes sense.
The seat braces they offer are for the Mustangs which are narrower than the T-Birds. I have asked them if they will make seat braces for the Birds and they are looking into it which means maybe and more like not going to happen. I am thinking of making my own by measuring the seat braces I have on my Coupe and possibly building a set based off of that design but its pretty low on the list of things to do.
Darren
Thanks for clearing that up for me Darren. Now I see why you like GW's SFC so much. It sounds like they're extremely well engineered. I was wrong to have any misgivings about them.
You're a bad influence on me Darren. Because of you, I'm gonna have to buy a pair of their SFC's. Because of all the big bills I've had to pay lately, I'm gonna have to do financial gymnastics to buy them, but it sounds like they're worth it to me.
I just spoke to a Tech Rep at Global West by the way and asked him about the possibility of them starting to make seat braces for our cars. It would be in your best interest to read the thread I just started. It's titled "Global West Seat Braces."
:popcorn: All I can say is GIGGITTY! I like where this is going!
i thought they made mine ride worse, that may al;so be because i have a strut tower bace also. but it launchs alot harder
It may be the suspension. I have full coil overs and street valved Koni DA's (Griggs Racing) on all four corners on both cars so it actually made mine more responsive and much more fun to drive. I have strut tower braces and Griggs upper subframes on both cars so they are really stiff.
Darren
Then your suspension is sub-par.
I agree with Chuck. I have the stock LX springs and Monroe SensaTracs and the car rides better after I had the subframes installed. The ride is smoother and more controlled than it was before the subframe connectors.