Working on buying some parts for the T-bird and need some info guys.
My PS pump is on the way out and one of the high pressure lines has sprung a nice leak as well. I figure that with 18x,xxx miles it is high time to replace the pump and rack. I want to go ahead and do the 15:1 upgrade to further take advantage of my bigger wheel/tire combo and lowered stance.
My question is: Where would you guys recommend buying from? What brands have worked well for you? I usually buy all my stuff from Advance Auto but if other brands are superior, let me know!
I've not worked on a rack and pinion steering much (I've mostly worked on older style recirculating ball type setups like that found on my Chevelle and pickup trucks, etc). Everything I've ever had w/rack and pinon never gave me any trouble so I never had to wrench on it, lol. What else will I need besides the rack, pump, and hi-pressure lines? I assume there are rack bushings that I might as well replace while I'm in there.
I think I'm gonna change out the upper strut mounts too, they are clunking.
Thanks for the help guys.
I personally have had good luck with A-1 Cardone , and they have lifetime warranty.
I know some people will not agree with me , but I can only speak for myself.
I used a napa rack, it's probably a cardone to. So far no issues,but I don't get many miles on it. There is a lot of discussion about using the right pump for the 15-1 rack on here before. I used my stock pump. Definitely put new bushings in while it's out.
My new rack for the 20th came from napa as well. had zero issues with fitting, its the higher ratio version as well.
Napa also sells the pump lines, good quality.
Yeah, make sure you spec out a pump for the higher ratio rack...if you have a V8, one for a Fox 5.0 Stang will work, or an '88 Sport, etc.
Using the low pressure pump with the 15:1 rack=bad. ChuckW will verify this, as well as some others.
The quicker ratio rack is definitely worlds better than the 18:1 (i think it's 18:1..) unit...night and day difference. I almost feel mine is too twitchy, but of course I still need an alignment...not that that causes any problems, car doesn't run with the engine gone lol
Thanks all. I do plan to change the pump and rack both to the 15:1 at the same time.
For you guys that have the Cardone rack, can you shoot me a part number...I'm comparing/shopping around, want to make sure the one I'm looking at is the 15:1 ratio unit...
Thanks!
Edit, here's the number of the one I'm lookin' at: 22-207
There's also a "Without Performance Suspension" for about 10 bucks more, with double the core charge...it's number is 22-203T
The 22-207 is the correct one
im not sure what is being said here.
my 20th got changed to the higher ratio and i dont have any issues with the power steering pump.
Just my 0.02 on this. I have replaced a few racks, pumps, and lines on my Fox cars and finally bit the bullet and installed the SN95 Mustang rack on both cars with the MM hybrid steering shaft and the stock Fox 5.0 Mustang power steering pump. What this does is get the over boosted feel of the Fox rack out of the car. The steering response is much better IMO and these racks can be found in an auto recyclers yard super cheap if you need to save a few dollars. The expensive part of the swap is the hybrid shaft from Maximum Motorsports but it is by far better than the stock rag joint and it kills the Flaming River replacement as far a function and it fit perfect with no mods to my headers. The cost break down for me was as follows:
Rack (A-1 Cardone at O'Reilly) - $102.99 (you will need a core)
Pump w/reservoir (A-1 Cardone at O'Reilly) - $46.99 (you will need a core) and its actually a $1 more for one without the reservoir.
MM Hybrid Shaft (http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_14&products_id=461) - $229.95 list and most MM dealers will knock some off
Low pressure line (used high pressure fuel line from O'Reilly) - $2.49 per foot, I bought two feet so I would have enough to get it to fit right.
High pressure line with A/C (O'Reilly) - $19.99
You will have to use the Fox inner tie rods off your Fox rack as the threads are SAE between the inner and outer tie rods on a Fox. The SN95 cars are metric threads between the tie rods but are the same thread as the Fox racks where the inner tie rods attach to the rack. They do not check the cores so you just slip your Fox rack back in the box and put the SN95 tie rod ends on it. If your inner tie rods are junk then just get new ones which are about $17 each in the house brand and $37 for the Moog units.
I took the opportunity to install a bump steer kit as both of my cars are pretty low but you still get a kit for a Fox car.
Darren
AUTOZONE - LIFETIME WARRENTY FOR LIKE 80 BUCKS! - you don't need a receipt and you can return it to any store. I have used there remanufactured units and trust them greatly!
Interesting writeup. I am still weighing my options before I buy all my parts. So what ratio are the SN95 racks? Are they even quicker than a 15:1 rack or is the difference in the pump?
I am quoting Jack Hidley from Maximum Motorsports:
[COLOR="blue"]"Fox (quick ratio power) amd SN95 racks have the same steering ratio, 15:1. Most of the Fox racks have steering racking limiting clips installed from Ford to limit the steering lock and keep the "wide" 225 tires from rubbing. When you remove the clips, both racks require the same number of turns lock to lock. The biggest difference in the racks is that the SN95 racks have a stiffer torsion valve in them. This gives much more weight when the car is going straight and reduces the assist level when the car is turning."[/COLOR]
By using the Fox pump the only difference is in the stiffer torsion valve as Jack describes. You can also put a little more effort into the system by installing a V6 Mustang pulley on the pump which slows the pump down due to the larger diameter. This is usually only something you would do with a road race car.
Jack also has stated this over and over on several forums:
[COLOR="blue"]"The stiffness of the torsion bar in a power rack determines how much steering wheel torque it takes before you start to get power assist. Once you have started to get power assist, the output pressure/volume of the PS pump determines how much power assist there is. When you drive the car in a straight line, and give it a very small amount of steering wheel torque, there is no power assist until you apply enough torque to open the flow control valve in the rack, then you get power assist. Vehicle speed has nothing to do with power steering behavior in a Fox or SN95 Mustang."[/COLOR]
So what you get with the SN95 rack is a newer design, increased feed back, and the car just generally does not feel like an over boosted grandma car.
Darren
Darren, what would one use if they had or planned to use 94-95 spindles, in regards to outer tie rods? For example: '88 control arms, sn95 rack, 94-95 spindles. Could I use the sn95 inner and outer tie rods with fox ball joints? Or would the overall length be the deciding factor? (i looked around, couldn't find the pertinent info..)
Just trying to get a clear concise view on what combination would be the best for a stock to mildly lowered setup.
And this should be stickied...anyone else?
Funny you should ask about the SN95 spindles as both my cars are converted that way.
The T-Bird has the 96+ spindles on it but that is due to having an aftermarket K-member which leads to the question about the ball joints. The tubular control arms which came with the K-member also come with the low friction SN95 style ball joints. This car also has the SN95 rack, MM hybrid steering shaft, Fox inner and outer tie-rods, and a MM Fox bump steer kit.
The Coupe has the 96+ spindles on it also due to having an aftermarket K-member and it too has the low friction SN95 style ball joints in the tubular control arms. Again, the car has the SN95 rack, MM hybrid steering shaft, Fox inner and outer tie-rods, and a MM Fox bump steer kit.
One difference between the two cars is the Coupe was the Ginnie pig. It had a stock K-member with stock control arms, Fox ball joints, and the 94-95 SN95 spindles prior to converting over to the aftermarket K-member. The installation of the SN95 rack, MM hybrid steering shaft, Fox inner and outer tie-rods, and a MM Fox bump steer kit was done prior to the aftermarket K-member with the only exception being the bump steer kit was the tapered version versus the bolt through it has now. The tapered version is for cars that have been lowered but not been dropped into the weeds like the bolt through. I had to use the 0.330" stack of washers between the SN95 spindle and the Fox ball joint so that the correct height was achieved to get the castle nut to torque correctly without leaving the spindle loose. This has also been documented on various sites with Matt's being the most comprehensive:
http://home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/page1.html
Another thing a person can do is simply install the SN95 ball joints in the Fox control arms. The Moog brand works really well and if your ball joints are suspect and you are keeping the stock control arms this is a great solution. This is also mentioned in Matt's site above.
Now in the case of the 87-88 cars and the question of tie-rod lengths. My guess here would be to install the SN95 rack with the Fox inner tie-rods and use the Fox outer tie-rods. From what I have read the mounting locations of the control arms moved inward about the difference in length between the Fox and SN95 control arms.
For clarification purposes the 83-86 cars use Fox Mustang control arms and the 87-88 cars use the SN95 control arms which are about 1.25" longer than the Fox units. From what I can tell the distance from ball joint to ball joint with the control arms mounted to the K-member and the control arms held parallel to the ground is just about identical. Maybe +/- 0.25" but others can chime in on that.
In this thread that Chuck W started (http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?27386) Brent posted up the ball joint to ball joint width of an 87 car but we still do not have this data for a 83-86 car which would confirm what I am thinking above.
Anyhow, hope my rambling helped.
Darren
it did, thank you very much. I've got a game plan now...just need to hit the lottery or knock off a bank, lol
I would check to see if you actually needed to replace the tie rods to accommodate toe adjustment. On my '83, with 94-95 spindles and a Fox rack, I had plenty of adjustment in the Fox tie rods. I may eventually upgrade to an SN-95 rack, but not until this one dies. On the old '80 XR-7 (the white one), I did the same thing when I installed the 94-95 spindles. I still had plenty of engagement of the Fox tie rods.
On the track width (ball joint-to-ball joint), the 83-86 and 87-88 cars are pretty close, so as to not be an issue really. The 87-88 arms are longer, but due to the angle of their mounting, and the relocation of the inner mounting points, the end result is negligible.
IIRC, I think Jeremy B also looked at the Taurus outer tie rods, as they had the same metric thread as the SN-95's. There was a length issue I think, with the SN-95 outer tie rods being too long. It's been a bit since I looked at it.
Chuck,
Thanks for the clarification I knew someone would know/remember that. I have heard of guys using the 1993 Taurus outer tie-rod ends and they work fine. From what I have read most have had to anywhere from 1/2" to 1" off of the threads on the SN95 inner tie-rod to bring the toe in enough for alignment. Not a big deal just remember to put the jam nut on first so after you cut off the desired length the jam nut can be removed to help clean up the threads. Typically they cut them off with an air grinder and a cutting wheel. Then gently put a chamfer on the end of the threads so the outer tie-rod will thread up easier.
I also remembered one other thing. If you are going to reuse your existing power steering lines be sure to get new teflon seals as it will surely leak if you do not replace them.
Darren
OK guys, I ended up going the stock equipment/cheap route by buying all my stuff at Advance Auto. I priced around and they were competitive price wise and I assume will be similar quality to Autozone, NAPA, etc...the manager knows my Dad so I try to give him the business. It would have been cool to go with something more trick, but the quicker ratio stuff will be better than what I have now anyway.
I bought the following:
1.)Fenco steering rack (for a sport)
2.)Fenco PS pump (for a sport)
3.) Monroe upper strut mounts
4.) High-press PS hose.
I still need to go back and get the rack-pinion bushings and the return hose. Anything else you guys can think of that I might as well replace while I'm in there? The tie rods seemed to be in amazingly good shape last time I checked them out...but as cheap as they are (like $15) I'm considering getting them as well.
I'm itchin' to turn some wrenches on the car! Its been a long winter staring at the car sitting idle in the garage. My uncle is volunteering up his nice heated garage to do the project in. He is going to be my co-pilot on Power Tour and will be helping me so that he will have some "sweat equity" in the car so as to earn his seat. lol...
Let me know your driving impressions when you get it done. I need to do this soon also.
Will do! I am hoping it will drive like new again (or better). With 180k+ there is probably more wear and tear than I realize.
The project begins tonight and will hopefully be finished up by Sunday...driving impressions soon to come.
Sweet..
Got the rack dropped out tonight. I didnt realize it takes a "special tool" to remove the PS pump pulley so I will need to procure one of those before I work on it again Saturday. I did go ahead and order new inner and outer tie rod ends for it as well. Hopefully it will drive nice when finished up!
I think AZ loans those tools.
Congrtas on your progress so far :)
I thought reman racks came with inner tie rods already installed though
Yeah they do...not sure why I typed that.
I have new outers coming. Figure w/the miles while I have it out I may as well put on new ones...they were cheap, like $12/ea or something.
I hear this alot. I did the upgraded rack with the non-sport pump and have never had any problems. I drive it like a beast too and it works great. I still wish there was a way to increase the turning effort as both racks feel like turning a rudder on a boat. My Jetta takes a little more arm effort but gives me much more road feel. I prefer manual steering. I have them in both my 84 rabbit vert and my 67 mustang.
P.S., Changing the rack in with the engine in the car was about the most frustrating thing I've ever done. Definitely, jack the engine off the mounts. I had a hell of a time trying to seat the rack onto the posts that jut out of the sub-frame.
The rack just popped right off for me...may be a different story when it goes back together though. I have all sorts of room but then again I have new ChuckW mounts so maybe that makes a difference??
Got everything back together. It was a breeze but did take most of the day Saturday after we had to make a couple of parts runs. The guys at Advance Auto screwed me up because they only ordered one tie rod end! This is after I told them I needed both outers...grrr. We ran to every parts store in town and finally found another one at O-reillys. Got it home and it was non-greasable while the one from Advance was greasable!
I didn't want to mix and match so I ended up just putting the original tie rods back on. They felt OK and we cleaned them up in the parts washer...so hopefully they last awhile. I'd imagine they are just as good as the new ones!
Anyway, I will probably go get the car tonight (its in my uncles garage) and get it aligned in the next couple of weeks.
I had a royal bugger of a time getting the fittings back on the rack. Then I had problems getting the column to line up and ended up dropping the column out the bottom of the dash. Sounds like you had a much easier time. I was cussing and bleeding and fed up by the time it was done. If it had leaked after I got finished....I would have junked the car.. no joke.
Yeah, those fittings were sorta hard to get a wrench to once the rack was back in the car. My uncle did the steering shaft part while I was fiddling with the fittings but he seemed to not have any trouble with it either.
Funny how no two cars are the same. Some cars are a PITA to do certain things to while on another exact same car the same job is a breeze.
Using a 20:1 rack with a 15:1 pump isn't that big of an issue. However, using the 20:1 pump with a 15:1 rack is. On quick transitions the rack can lock-up, as the pump is over-boosting the steering. Not fun...