Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

I plan on running 650, Torker, ported GT40s, SRP pistons, F303 or TrickFlow stage 2, and so on.
We'll see money is very tight.
I cant make up my mind on the cam, I can get the F303 for $50 used. I've heard that a F cam is a good blower cam. ;)

I've done builds at both ends.  Example #2 really sucks. .

Letter cams make great paperweights......I'd actually like to get one and make a table lamp out of it.

If money's really tight, don't spend on parts that don't match.  Wait and get the right ones.  A $50 cam that works poorly is a lousy buy, particularly if you have to buy another to get it run right.

General guidelines I have learned: 
Example #1: Big heads, single plane intake, big carb, big exhaust, little cam (custom), power from idle to as high it's built to spin. Good idle, lots of vacuum, good gas mileage, easy to live with.
Example #2: Small heads, small carb, dual plane intake, small exhaust, big cam like a Stage 2 (OTS) = soggy low end, peaky power band, low vacuum for power brakes, poor idle, crummy gas mileage and miserable to live with. 

I've done builds at both ends.  Example #2 really sucks.  Spent all the cash on trying to get togehter and running and don't have funds to get it to run right.  Example #1 takes more saving and planning, but it's sooo much more satisfying to have it work right!

We all have our learning curves.  I did #2 builds until I learned better.  Wish I knew better earlier!  I would have save a bunch of time & money.

Hope you have good luck which ever one you choose.

First you need to be honest with yourself as to what you want and how much do you want to spend .
/QUOTE]

This becomes the heart of it.  In the evolution of most grassroots builds, it's often missed, because what is really wanted costs considerably more.  Unfortunately, for most, the reality of that fact comes after spending cash on mismatched parts. 

There are countless times when grassroots builds are complete and the performance expectations are never achieved.  Then more cash is spent chasing the expectation.  Not cost effective, but certainly a learning experience (which is what life's about...).

The most common mistake is the wrong cam and valve springs.  The right ones can make a pretty basic pile of parts really sing.  That's the area where an experts opinion is worth every dime.  It's where I'd spend my hard earned cash.  But that's just my opinion based on what I've learned in my years of chasing performance. 

There are lots of ways to build an engine and for the most part they'll all start and run.  "Run" is a relative term!

This becomes the heart of it.  In the evolution of most grassroots builds, it's often missed, because what is really wanted costs considerably more.  Unfortunately, for most, the reality of that fact comes after spending cash on mismatched parts. 

There are countless times when grassroots builds are complete and the performance expectations are never achieved.  Then more cash is spent chasing the expectation.  Not cost effective, but certainly a learning experience (which is what life's about...).

The most common mistake is the wrong cam and valve springs.  The right ones can make a pretty basic pile of parts really sing.  That's the area where an experts opinion is worth every dime.  It's where I'd spend my hard earned cash.  But that's just my opinion based on what I've learned in my years of chasing performance. 

There are lots of ways to build an engine and for the most part they'll all start and run.  "Run" is a relative term!

Quote

If money's really tight, don't spend on parts that don't match. Wait and get the right ones. A $50 cam that works poorly is a lousy buy, particularly if you have to buy another to get it run right.

General guidelines I have learned:
Example #1: Big heads, single plane intake, big carb, big exhaust, little cam (custom), power from idle to as high it's built to spin. Good idle, lots of vacuum, good gas mileage, easy to live with.
Example #2: Small heads, small carb, dual plane intake, small exhaust, big cam like a Stage 2 (OTS) = soggy low end, peaky power band, low vacuum for power brakes, poor idle, crummy gas mileage and miserable to live with.

I've done builds at both ends. Example #2 really sucks. Spent all the cash on trying to get togehter and running and don't have funds to get it to run right. Example #1 takes more saving and planning, but it's sooo much more satisfying to have it work right!

We all have our learning curves. I did #2 builds until I learned better. Wish I knew better earlier! I would have save a bunch of time & money.

Hope you have good luck which ever one you choose.
I would like to add an op-ed to this.... #2 type build if done with some thought can be just fine for some people ,it depends on what the the car is going to be used for.
If going as fast as possible is your goal then #1 all the way ,
But for a daily driver that you just want a *little* more than stock that will NEVER see a track if the proper cam is chosen to match all the other components #2 type of build works just fine and when I say #2 build , I think Gt40s are "small heads " but they can be cammed to get decent mileage and vacuum as well as increased power with OTS parts .
Engines are not "one size fits all" First you need to be honest with yourself as to what you want and how much do you want to spend .
Again I say" the single biggest decision is the cam"

You're gonna get more driveability out of a #1 type buildup as opposed to a #2.....


Need proof?  Take a lightning 351 and throw a TFS stage 2 or an equivalent in it that will have proper PTV clearance.  Change NOTHING else on it.

Now take an LS1 and throw GM's stage 1 hot cam in it -- which BTW is smaller than a TFS2 -- and tell me which one when put on an engine dyno will run away from the other in both peak and average power output.  Average power output is gonna get you down the track faster as well as being more street friendly -- ESPECIALLY in front of an automatic transmission equipped car.


You can get #2 to work, but chances are you're gonna spend more than you want to.

:laughing: SBFtech reference :rollin:

Did you even read my entire post ?
 I confused on the point you are trying to make by quoting it .
 I said # 1 was better but a #2 would be ok for some people if done with  forethought and being honest with what they want .
 Not everyone wants to /can spent $1000 or more on a set of heads plus $300 or $400 on a custom cam.
I dont need "proof " for something I already agreed with, or is this an SBFtech type of response where there is only one way of doing things or it is "wrong"

What I don't even get is the reference to a LS1 motor.  Keep the thread on topic and post useful information pertaining to the thread and the OP.

Wow...Do you always get so bent out of shape?  I fail to see where I insulted you.
No wonder I hardly ever post here as this place USED to be able to accept other opinions and sources of input.  Funny you mention SBFtech because for your ridicule of them you sound as if any advice that would come from there would be shunned by you simply because of it's source.
Pot meet kettle.If you did a #2 build and it worked for you -- meaning you were satisfied with the results -- then great.  The average person doing a build on #2 will spend more money than they initially intended in my views/experiences.  Some get lucky.  Most won't.  Those who get lucky have made enough builds before/had the right person help them.
I've seen fully assembled sets of TFS and AFR heads go for far less than $1000.  The trick is to be patient and wait for a used set.  And $400 for a custom cam is a small price to pay to tie everything together correctly.  If one cannot be patient enough to wait for the parts they want to meet their budget, perhaps they should find a new hobby.  If $400 is too much they should DEFINITELY find a new hobby.

I realize that not everyone has X amount of dollars to spend on a build --  again this goes into priorities and whether or not one should even THINK about a teardown/buildup. You should never go into a build wanting to spend X and only having X.  You should always have a surplus -- NO EXCEPTIONS.

For instance I like fat chicks with hairy legs

what about the guy who goes to a show and shine and just uses his car to cruise around on weekends ?

I dont shun the advice at SBF, there is some fantastic info there , I just shun the huge amount of arrogance show by some (not all) posters there ,Mods included.

I wish my $400 custom cam cost that,till I bought the springs and new pr's and the rest it was a $1000. I'm happy with it,but don't think you can through just a custom cam in and it's done.

The exterior must have a good wax job as well.

Now if you had compared the stock 351W out of the lightning to the same motor with the TFS2 cam and then a cam recommended by Comp or another source that would prove a point due to keeping the control the same.

V8Demon,
You are absolutely correct on the flow on the LS1 heads but my statement was not meant to detract from the LS1.  Comparing the LS1 gear to the 351W roller motor out of a Lightning is sort of fair but you limited the 351W to a py cam.  Again, apples to oranges in my opinion.  Now if you had compared the stock 351W out of the lightning to the same motor with the TFS2 cam and then a cam recommended by Comp or another source that would prove a point due to keeping the control the same.  Again, this is just the way I see is and would think that it would be the way to do a good comparision to prove a point.

I went back and reread the entire thread and this all started with a simple post on a carb size calculator.  It has drifted over to the current discussion of Bruce also stating that he was looking at building a motor with certain components.  Others were offering advice on what to do with the combo to improve on it.  I think the general consensus is that the TFS2 or F303 cam should not be used.  I have had great luck with calling Comp Cams and getting a recommendation on a cam to use with a current engine combo.  From there you can take the specs on the cam they recommend and see if you can find a used one or simply bite the bullet and buy a new cam.  Get a cam that a known builder or cam guru suggests with current parts to be used and I think you will have built a great motor and it will be within your budget.  Will it be all it can be?  The obvious answer is no if you want to add more parts and money but if the OP wants to keep the build mild and just get all that he can out of the parts he has then the answer is yes.

Again, I am not arguing anyone's points on how to build a motor or what path to take.  It just appears to me this got off track of the original intent.  Hopefully Bruce is still watching the thread but I think he bailed on it a few pages ago, cannot blame him at all.
Not a fan of the big girls especially hairy ones.  I guess I like mine with more up top and am willing to sacrifice some bottom end for it.  The exterior must have a good wax job as well.

Darren

Go check out http://www.sbftech.com/ and you will understand.  Kind of similar to what you will find at http://www.corner-carvers.com only they are nice at sbftech.  You were warned so just lurk...do not post until you are 100% you want to go down that road.

In my experience those caluculators have little basis in the world of performance.  Maybe it's good for a stock engine, can't say, I've never had one in a project car.

I haven't run anything smaller than a modified 750 on 306 w/a 6,500 RPM shift point.

If you want to go fast, look elsewhere for advice on the right carb.

"the single biggest decision is the cam"  Bingo!  There's a comment I can get behind.

I strongly disagree that if you dont have much money that you should find a new hobby. I dont have much money but Im still going to wrench on my car as much as I can and just because some of us cant afford custom cams doesnt meen we shouldnt build engines.