Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

You sure the car isn't stalling? Usually a check engine light will come on any time the key is on but the engine isn't running. The spinning drivetrain will keep the engine turning even though it's dead and will restart it once things come back alive...

So a momentary flickering of the check engine light means a failure in the oil pump? Yes this is a standard gauge cluster with the buttstuffog fuel and temp gauges.

I would guess the engine is missing.  Ignition or starving for fuel-too lean to ignite properly, or plugs.

I know that when my car had problems with "shuddering" or "bucking" uphills was due to my fuel pump. The in tank fuel pump has a rubber hose between the actual pump and the metal lines for the sending unit. That rubber hose disintegrated over time and had a fair sized hole in it. The car was fine in park, fine on flat roads, but going up hills was not fun. I don't recall watching the check engine light, I was usually busy mashing the throttle in hopes the car didn't stall out! I also don't think that the computer can check to see if the fuel pump is failing in such a manner, so that might explain why you don't have any new codes.

 
YMMV of course, this is just what happened to me.

It could be the oil pressure sending unit.  I had one go intermittent on me and then it finally died.  They are cheap and easy to replace.

You should be able to clear all of the stored codes in the EEC with the hand held code reader.  If you clear them and they show back up then you need to fix them.  From what I remember the techs at Ford had to fix the codes as they came up as other codes could be hidden behind it.  py way of describing it but if you did not clear one round of codes then the EEC may not be able to alert you to additional codes being covered up by the first one.  Its been a while since I have dealt with the older generation of the EEC's.

Darren

Yeah its not stalling. The car has just shut off before while driving down the road. IT just seems to really stumble and almost act as if the car  was real cold and you stepped on it hard, it like "shutters" for those couple of seconds and then all is fine. Car is an 87 t-bird 5.0 with a factory AOD and a factory 3.08 rear(original to the v6 car).

Now where it flashes and goes out, and I ran codes last night, which was 4 starts/trips later, shouldn't the code be in the memory? Therefore does this mean this check engine light coincides with one of the pre-existing codes stored?

If the above statement is true, why doesn't clearing the codes remove any of the codes? If it doesn't flash, shouldn't the code not be present until it does.

Lets try to clear up some of this code mystery.
The codes come in three categories. The meaning of some codes change depending on which category it is in.
KOEO gives two categories of codes:
1. On demand codes. These read out first. They are the results of the self tests that run when you "pull codes". They are "faults" present at the time of testing. They are not stored in the KAM(Keep Alive Memory). The only way to get rid of them is to fix the problem.
2. Memory (or continuous) codes. These read out second, after a separator pulse or a 10 on the code reader. These are "faults" collected and stored during drive cycles.
These can be reset by disconnecting the jumper from the self test connector pig tail wire or disconnecting the pig tail wire from the code reader while the codes are reading out.
Rerun the KOEO to verify they cleared.
3. KOER codes.

What codes do you have and what category are they in?

I retrieve codes by using the jumper style method. This:

How to Prepare for the Self-Test

To check for codes without buying a code reader is simple. If your EEC is wired correctly, the engine light works, and there are not any electrical faults in the vehicle you can get the codes out of your EEC.

1. Turn key to OFF.
2. Get a length of wire that can connect the STI to the negative battery terminal or body ground.
3. Ground the Self-Test Input.
4. Get some paper and a pen.
5. Get comfortable in the drivers seat.
6. Try to keep your self from getting distracted from here on.
7. Turn key to RUN.
8. You will hear some relays engage and the fuel pumps prime the system. This is the EEC beginning the test.
9. When the fuel pumps stop be ready to count!

And I get the codes 67, then 1, then 63, then 33.

This proceedure did the KOEO (Key On Engine Off) self test.

67 is an "on demand" code.
1 is the separator pulse.
63 and 33 are memory codes.

Run the test again, and while the memory codes are reading out, disconnect the jumper wire.
Turn the key off. Reconnect the jumper wire. Run the test again. The memory codes 63 and 33 should be gone. Remove the jumper wire.
Start the car and let it idle for 20 minutes. (warm up).
Turn the engine off. Install jumper wire. Start the engine and record the KOER (Key On Engine Running) codes.

Let us know what you get.

I have. That is how these three codes are the only ones left. I finally was informed how to fix the code 67, from Joel over at SBFTech. I'm going to do that tomorrow, hopefully. I have changed the TPS, with one I got from vinnie, and the code went away for like 2 days. So I'm not sure about that. I have also changed out the EGR valve twice, and I have not been able to get the code to not show up. However, with the KOEO test, the EGR valve not detecting might not be a problem. 

Again, I have cleared the codes, and these are the three that have stayed.

Are you saying you cleared the codes and they reoccured after driving the car or they never cleared?

The TPS one did, temporarily for a little while, and the EGR one did not go away.

Someone posted on one of my other threads it might be because I did the KOEO test.

This statement is confusing. The reason I asked you to rerun the KOEO after resetting the memory codes was to insure the program in the EEC was working right and resetting the codes. I am gussing you are operating from memory or notes and did not actually do it. .

The KOEO and KOER tests will not set any memory codes.
The KOEO test will set an "on demand" EGR code if the voltage from the EVP (Egr Valve Position) sensor is out of specs for a closed valve condition.
The KOER test will set an "on damand" EGR code if the voltage from the EVP sensor is out of specs for an open valve condition.

Memory codes are stored in the KAM (Keep Alive Memory) while driving the car.  If they only show up  as memory codes and not on demand codes, they are intermittent failures.

Symptoms kind of match up to an EGR problem.

Have you tried a new TPS (read #21) or at least checking the one you have to make sure it is at a good starting voltage and when swept from idle to WOT that it reads smoothly and has no dead spots?  Another thing you could be dealing with is the black and white connectors between the main EEC harness and the injector harness.  I did not read where you have checked fuel pressure (posts #7, #17, & #18).  I would think the the fuel pressure would be something that you would need to eliminate quickly.

Darren

I actually did clear the codes. But again, immediately the code 67 one kept coming back, but that has been fixed.

I ran codes when I got home, and I got 11, 11, then a 1, then 63, 33, 63, 33.

Now I’ve been told a couple of things on how to clear the stored codes. Some say remove the pin in the process of the test, other say disconnect the battery.

Could it be that the codes are not deleting? What else can I do to delete them?

But the light came on, so that means the computer should store a code, right!?

I ran the KOER test tonight, got only code 33.

I didn't floor the car though, went down between half and 3/4.

salt and pepper connections
http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=85
What all your sensors look like, and what they do.
http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=10
Actuators
http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=11
A simplified version of what the computer is doing, and what sensors it is using.
http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=64

There used to be a map of what voltages should be to test them. I cannot find it.

I am sure I have linked you to many, if not all of these in the past. Then you started a new thread saying it was a new issue.

If you are talking about the "goose" test, you momentarly floor it when you get the single pulse. It is testing if the TPS voltage can get up to WOT level.
Not all versions of the EEC have this test.
Other than that you should not have your foot on the gas pedal while KOER is running.

Your 63 code is an intermittent TPS voltage too low.
This proceedure is called the wiggle test in the shop manual. It lets you wiggle cables and tap on stuff etc. to see if you can duplicate the problem.
If you have a helper, have them sit in the car and watch to see if you can make the check engine light flash. If not hook a test light or an buttstuffog meter between the self test connector pin 4 and positive battery post. This will in effect put the check engine light under the hood where you can watch it.

Run KOEO and clear the memory codes.
Run KOER. Wait for two minutes after it finishes outputing codes. It is now in "Continuous Monitor Mode"
Wiggle and tap stuff and see if you can make the check engine light flash. If you can, run KOEO and see if you stored a 63 memory code.

There is tons of trouble shooting in those links. Resistance and voltage is a function of electricity and your cars ECU. It lists the minimun voltage acceptable for some things, and the maximum resistance of others. It even shows you how to check grounds between your battery cable and the computer pins.

If you don't think thats important, I don't wonder why your having problems.

:giggle: carburetor dude

or a 3.8 :rollin:

So what were the resitances on the grounding pins to the eec and the battery cable? My bet is that your eec has something bad inside it, your missing one or more of the grounds, and I'm still sure you timing is off. But I can only guess from what you tell us.

The egr does not do anything as long as there is no vaccum to it. You will not get a check engine light, but you will get a code. When you get a code your egr is not finctioning to begin with.

The reason for checking your grounding resistance is to make sure you will check the wires. If the wires check out, then its the computer, or a sensor. So go and check your grounds. Report back your finding and I will send you my s.o. computer for free.

So what were the resitances on the grounding pins to the eec and the battery cable? My bet is that your eec has something bad inside it, your missing one or more of the grounds, and I'm still sure you timing is off. But I can only guess from what you tell us.

The reason for checking your grounding resistance is to make sure you will check the wires. If the wires check out, then its the computer, or a sensor. So go and check your grounds. Report back your finding and I will send you my s.o. computer for free.

I think i know what the problem is.  Way back on the first page you specifically stated "check engine" adn for some darn reason I started thinking in the wrong direction.

DO this........
get the pry bar you use to remove your belt and put it in the back of the car.
when you pull in to home after driving , quickly jump out of the car and remove the belt just enough to clear the belt off the smog pump.

tell us if the smog pully isnt feeling tight or grindy feeling.
if so,,your engine is being robbed of power which answers a multitude of up hill power issues.

also,, just fyi
get a can of wd40 and plan on wasting it all.
un hook ever vac line you see going to a solenoid.
spray up in the solinoid and fill er' up.
spray up inside the lines getting plenty in there.
spray inside the vac tree
spray inside the brake booster line
spray inside everything you can think of.

this will lubricate the solinoids and the plastic / rubber orings and plungers ect.

but seriously, if that smog is going bad, and the problem is gettng worse like you said, it will eventually start throwing a belt.

as for the sensors and values,, see my diy link.

as for pulling codes, just listen to softtouch.  dont  pull codes on a cold moter either, it will have you chasing the wrong things.

Has anyone suggested pulling the MAF element and cleaning it?  This can be over looked and it will cause all kinds of havoc.  Scratch this if the car is not a mass air car.

Darren

Be sure to turn off the A/C, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes.  Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.  Did you check the MAP sensor vacuum line to make sure it is in good shape and does not have a leak?  Did you ever put a fuel pressure gauge on the schrader valve and see what kind of pressure you are running under a load?

Darren

I just don't know what pins/wires in the computer to check.

Now this is interesting. I drove the car to work today. I had a couple of problems initially, on the highway, when moving at 45+. However, if I put the car in D, which is essentially 3rd gear, the car seems fine. At a stop light it idles a little rough, but that is only because the vacuum line to the EGR valve is disconnected. I have to find a plug for it at work today.

So this problem does seem to be EGR related, now I just have to determine(with the help of all of you I think) what could be causing the code 34. I'm going to go out and test the EVP lines to check them again tonight with a multimeter, but I had a spare EVP/EGR valve that I already put on and am still getting the on demand code, so I'm thinking it's something before the valves.

When trying to chase down the 63 EGR valve opening not detected code, I swapped the same EGR valve/EVP and didn't get a code.

So a momentary flickering of the check engine light means a failure in the oil pump?

No. 

If it's a real CEL, it could care less about what the oil pressure is.  It's tied to the ECU, it wouldn't even know if there was oil in the engine.  If it's the idiot light "ENGINE" light, like in the older cars w/o full gauges, then it's tied to the oil pressure and coolant temp. 

If it was an oil pump issue that was bad enough to cause a drop in power, that's the last thing it would do before making nasty noises and grinding to a halt.

.

You might want to fill us in on what codes are there, since we can't read minds. .

  You say it does it once a month.  Ever noticed what the fuel level is?  Perhaps the pump or intank hoses are going bad.  Perhaps there's some  floating around in the bottom of the tank that get's pushed onto the fuel pick-up.  Who knows.

Are you sure you have vacuum going to the EGR valve at idle? If so this is a problem.
No, there is no vacuum to the EGR valve when car is idling, I just though that because the end of the hose is open, it might cause a leak. That’s all. My mistake.
.

The EEC should only open the EGR when warmed-up and cruising. Not at idle, not while accelerating or not while decelerating.
.

Put your vacuum gauge on the vac line to the EGR. Run KOER and you should see a puff of vacuum when it tries to test the EGR.
Plugging the EGR vacuum line and preventing the EGR from ever opening will not cause any driveblity problems
.

So somewhere along the way the KOER code 33 morphed into a code 34?
33 is pretty simple, the valve didn't open when told to.
34 is less clear. Means different things for different engines and years.
If someone with an 87 shop manual can look in the Emissions Diagnosis Manual and see what it means for an 87 5.0 it may help.
.

The 63 memory code is your TPS voltage too low. Did you try the wiggle test to see if you could create this code by tapping the wires and connectors going to the TPS?
Or by gradually revving up the engine to see if you hit a bad spot in the TPS?

yur killin me man,,,
click on the evtm link below,, its there for you to use.

It
I'm going to admit it, I can't read the schematics. Embarrassing as that is to admit, it's true.
.

Also, to check the tps, test the voltage while it is hooked up. Peirce the wire with a small finishing nail and keep your lead one thenail or pin or what ever you Peirce the wire with. Slowly run the throttle up by hand ans it should gradually increase in voltage. You can read other threads, probably one of your own I already link the small block ford tech article to you in. If your voltage checks out, do the base idle reset. The only real problem with this, is you should not have any vacuum leaks. Id you have any, it will not stick or it will rev up and down at idle.

Sorry if I have not been alot of help, and please excuse my spelling. I have only been able to get online here with my cell and it has a bunch of auto spelling features, and how hard it is to use the forum with 10 buttons and a 3 inch screen.

The internet is bad at getting the point crossed. I was not upset, but it is difficult to understand cirspoogestances through black and white text. Best way to learn is to jump right in. Nothing is better then hands on, which some direction so you are not wasting money needlessly.

you really need to pick up one of those cheapy buttstuffog meters they sell anywhere, tiny little meters with a needle.

if you had one of those, you would have found the tps was bad long ago.  You would have literally seen the intermittant open ckt.

I understand. I have a hard time following some of the instructions myself.

But on a good note, I swapped out the TPS and am no longer getting a check engine light! Now all is not well yet. I was not able to reset the base idle because I don't have a tachometer of any kind, therefore when idling at a stop light, etc, the car is a little shakey and sometimes when letting off the gas today I can feel the engine sort of idle too low. If that makes sense. It stumbles, not bad, but it is noticeable. My father thinks he has a timing light/rpm light at his work, and he is going to bring it home.

So we are on the right track. I will clear codes tonight, and go from there... :)

when you reset the base idle, you clear codes, unplug the iac and start it up. If it won,t stay running, throttle up you idle with the throttle stop screw until it will stau running. You can throttle your idle up or down, then when you get it to a low rpm's without it stalling, plug in the iac. The computer will set the idle where it needs to be. Go out and drive the car for 10 to 20 minutes under "normal" conditions. Making it sit to learn the idle is a myth.

I would do it warm. Basically, you can modify where the computer will set the idle, but if everything is working correctly and the idle screw is not adjusted too far, it will automatically set it to, or close enough it will not matter.

Did you try the trouble shooting proceedure that I suggested in post #70 ?

Question regarding that.I can only test it while running the KOEO test right? I'll run it, wait till its done, floor the accelerator pedal, then seeing the actuators are active, I can test by sucking air, the floor it again to check it without it activated. Tha'ts what you were trying to describe?

The EVP wire runs through the white 10 pin connector. I have a correct VREF of 5.0 volts, and as SIG-RTN of 3.8/3.9. The SIG-RTN should be less than .67v. Therefore, I have a short somewhere.  I unplugged the 10 pin connector and got 0v for SIG-RTN and VREF which according to Joel means the problem is after the 10 pin connector, which is sorta good news.

I cut the loom back last night to find one orange wire running from the harness spliced into two orange wires, one going to the TPS one going to the EVP. At first I thought this was my problem, but it appears to be how it's supposed to be. Now for the heck of it, I grounded this wire, and tried to run EOEO test, and the check engine light just stayed on and I could hear some actuator near the trunk clicking away. So I'm probably not supposed to ground that.  But now I'm wondering if this orange wire is tied to the orange wire that we've had threads about, the one that some people ground, others dont, etc. I may try to temporarily ground it and see what happens. I'll attempt to look at the EVTM tonight and see if I can make heads or tails of it.

Pulll apart your computer and see if anything is fried, bypass vacuum lines to everything but the map sensor and see if it gets better or not.

softtouch- I will check the SigRtn at the self test connector too.

Question regarding that.I can only test it while running the KOEO test right? I'll run it, wait till its done, floor the accelerator pedal, then seeing the actuators are active, I can test by sucking air, the floor it again to check it without it activated. Tha'ts what you were trying to describe?

Now I contacted Joel over at SBFTech.com in regards to this too. The EVP wire runs through the white 10 pin connector. I have a correct VREF of 5.0 volts, and as SIG-RTN of 3.8/3.9. The SIG-RTN should be less than .67v. Therefore, I have a short somewhere.  I unplugged the 10 pin connector and got 0v for SIG-RTN and VREF which according to Joel means the problem is after the 10 pin connector, which is sorta good news.

I cut the loom back last night to find one orange wire running from the harness spliced into two orange wires, one going to the TPS one going to the EVP. At first I thought this was my problem, but it appears to be how it's supposed to be. Now for the heck of it, I grounded this wire, and tried to run EOEO test, and the check engine light just stayed on and I could hear some actuator near the trunk clicking away. So I'm probably not supposed to ground that.  But now I'm wondering if this orange wire is tied to the orange wire that we've had threads about, the one that some people ground, others dont, etc. I may try to temporarily ground it and see what happens. I'll attempt to look at the EVTM tonight and see if I can make heads or tails of it.