Technical => Drivetrain Tech => Topic started by: 1BDBIRD on November 20, 2010, 03:52:07 PM
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: 1BDBIRD on November 20, 2010, 03:52:07 PM
I was looking at my 3.8 auto bird and it kinda looks like it shares the same aod as a 5.0. Is right or an optical illusion. Ive never messed with 3.8's before so i need some learning.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2010, 04:12:09 PM
Externally the same. Internally different. At least they where different in 84. Here are the specs from the 84 shop manual.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: turbo_88_XR7 on November 20, 2010, 04:33:57 PM
the bellhousings are the same? never knew that
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Beau on November 20, 2010, 06:24:41 PM
Quote from: turbo_88_XR7;342453
the bellhousings are the same?
yup
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: turbo_88_XR7 on November 20, 2010, 06:35:12 PM
good to know.. not that i ever use AOD's LOL
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Beau on November 20, 2010, 08:08:32 PM
They're good for holding heavy doors open, or closed. Haven't found any other worthwhile reason for having them around though lol
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Ductape91 on November 20, 2010, 08:36:36 PM
couldve sworn the only internal differences between fox 5.0 and 3.8 AODs are a few extra clutches.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: jpc647 on November 20, 2010, 08:38:16 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;342474
They're good for holding heavy doors open, or closed. Haven't found any other worthwhile reason for having them around though lol
The one in my car seems to be fine so far. knock on wood....
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: turbo_88_XR7 on November 20, 2010, 09:53:40 PM
they suck when you throw performance parts at the motor without modifying the trans.. they're nothing compared to a C4/6 in my opinion.. the only upside i see is overdrive for people who care about gas mileage.. which, i am definitely not 1 of lol i prefer power over gas mileage anyday.. if i wanted gas mileage, i'd buy a hybrid and that'll never happen in a million years lmao
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Beau on November 20, 2010, 09:59:53 PM
If I ever get another Thunderbird, it'll keep the AOD, but it'll get beefed up some...
Then again, a T5 with issues has kind've gotten on my last nerve. I plan on putting more power under the hood by spring, and an already weak, "entry level" manual has got me wanting more....will the Sport have an enhanced AOD for next summer....or something with a clutch, and 5 stronger gears? Hmmm.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: turbo_88_XR7 on November 20, 2010, 10:06:51 PM
tko! lol
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: RunninWild on November 21, 2010, 08:04:23 AM
Eric's writeup says you can actually use your 3.8 auto if you were to swap in a 5.0, but obviously it wouldn't live very long.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: sarjxxx on November 21, 2010, 10:27:48 AM
yes and that works in reverse too.
If you want to pull a 5.0 trans to replace your burnt up 3.8 trans, go for it. its all good.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: 1BDBIRD on November 22, 2010, 04:37:05 PM
Cool!!! So I have a 302 laying around somewhat stock? If i get some 5.0 bird mounts to install it. I could bolt it up to the aod until it goes poof!!! Most likely why aods go bad is because of that t/v cable adjustment!!
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 22, 2010, 05:25:46 PM
Quote from: turbo_88_XR7;342484
they suck when you throw performance parts at the motor without modifying the trans.. they're nothing compared to a C4/6 in my opinion.. the only upside i see is overdrive for people who care about gas mileage.. which, i am definitely not 1 of lol i prefer power over gas mileage anyday.. if i wanted gas mileage, i'd buy a hybrid and that'll never happen in a million years lmao
Have you driven a car with a built AOD? They are pretty fun ;)
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: BadTriumph on November 22, 2010, 05:42:02 PM
Might be a dumb question, but what constitutes a built AOD? I need to work that in to the plans for the XR-7.... Either that or swap in a C-4. Don't think I really want to go that route though...
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: sarjxxx on November 22, 2010, 05:47:31 PM
yep. That'll work have some fun with it. I don't think it wil be that bad if its a SO motor. An HO will probably do some damage after a while but if you don't really car about it, go for it.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 22, 2010, 06:04:51 PM
Quote from: BadTriumph;342735
Might be a dumb question, but what constitutes a built AOD? I need to work that in to the plans for the XR-7.... Either that or swap in a C-4. Don't think I really want to go that route though...
Valve body mods, heavy duty clutches, hardened 2 piece lock up or 1 piece non lock up input shaft, 2" OD band, high stall converter, trans cooler, all the things that end up being expensive but make the car fun.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: BadTriumph on November 22, 2010, 06:31:42 PM
Expensive but fun... I can dig that!
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: 1BDBIRD on November 23, 2010, 02:30:37 PM
Yeah the Leader in performance AOD's is LENTECH in canada. He builds some pretty stout stuff. Oh and my 302 is a HO,stock cam,e-7s,but still not enough to kill a tranny i dont think.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Beau on November 23, 2010, 02:49:24 PM
Any motor can kill any transmission if it doesn't have the right fluid, or correct amount. Also, the linkages need to be set properly, and for ANY spirited driving, I feel a good aftermarket tranny fluid cooler is a MUST. Saying an HO won't ruin an AOD is basically saying you'd risk the tranny...
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: HAVI on November 23, 2010, 09:14:52 PM
http://www.clickclickracing.com/ Ask these guys how much abuse an AOD can take. :)
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Scott D on January 02, 2011, 12:31:43 PM
Quote from: turbo_88_XR7;342453
the bellhousings are the same? never knew that
The 232 is basically a 302 with two cylinders cut off.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: 88turbo on January 02, 2011, 12:56:50 PM
Quote from: Scott D;348124
The 232 is basically a 302 with two cylinders cut off.
internally or externally?
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Scott D on January 02, 2011, 01:42:23 PM
Quote from: 88turbo;348126
internally or externally?
Well, the 3.8L has the same 90* V that the 302/351 family has; over-head valves; the bore and stroke are exactly the same; bellhousing patterns are the same;
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Beau on January 02, 2011, 02:27:41 PM
...Ford's Esshag v6 is based off of the Buick v6...albeit with iron heads.
Quote
The Canadian Esshag's origins are somewhat controversial. A common, but erroneous, belief is that the Esshag was based on the 5.0 L Windsor V8 engine (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Windsor_engine"), because they both have a 90° vee configuration, are OHV, and that a 5.0 L V8 less two cylinders would make a V6 displacing around 3.8 liters. Though the practice of deriving a V6 from a V8 was not unheard of (auto manufacturers have derived V6s from V8 designs before, such as GM making the Vortec 4300 (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Vortec_engine#V6") from the Vortec 5700 and Chrysler making the Magnum 3.9 (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_LA_engine#Magnum_3.9") from the 5.2), several important differences between the Windsor's design and the Esshag's, such as their considerably different bore and stroke, made a common design lineage implausible. One source states that the Esshag is instead a reverse engineered (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering") Buick V6 engine (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine"). Toward the end of the 1970s, Ford needed a new six cylinder engine that was powerful and compact enough to be used in a mid-size car while meeting increasingly stricter emissions and fuel efficiency standards. Since Ford did not have an engine available that could be readily made to meet these requirements, one needed to be developed. The quickest and least expensive approach in accomplishing this was to copy an existing engine from a competitor, which ended up being the Buick V6 from General Motors. Ford's resulting V6 was very similar to that of the original Buick engine — down to an unusual external oil pump design that was common in Buick engines and without precedent in modern Fords — and had a nearly identical displacement. In fact, one of the only major differences between the two engines early on was Ford's use of aluminum heads as opposed to the cast-iron ones used in the original Buick design. However, in the years since the Esshag V6's debut, design revisions from both Ford and GM to their respective V6 designs have differentiated their engines from each other to a point that any relationship between the two designs is not as obvious as it once was.
3.8... Bore was 3.810 in (96.8 mm) and stroke was 3.390 in (86.1 mm). 5.0 has a 3.0" stroke...
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Scott D on January 02, 2011, 02:35:46 PM
Now, I could have sworn that the 232 and the 302 had the same bore and stroke. I learned something, today
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: jcassity on January 05, 2011, 11:09:08 PM
60 deg motors for both.. the 3.8 and 5.0
not sure why anyone would think the bell housings would be different.
actually the AOD 3.8L supercharged cars is the AOD go get. Im done shifting.
The c4/c6 comment,,, well then have yourself an AOD with O/D and just down shift one detent,,lol
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 06, 2011, 12:26:01 AM
AODs are great if you want to drive a car on the highway with 3.73 gears. I turn 2800 rpm with 3.73s and a non lock up torque converter. With a lock up converter it would turn about 2400. My stock trans was rebuilt and is much better than even a SC AOD could hope to be. Again the problem is built AODs are not cheap. I had mine rebuilt with a bunch of high quality parts. Lets just say that it cost about what people would pay for two of these cars in ok shape......
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: 93customcougar on January 06, 2011, 01:37:09 AM
i'm doing the same swap,, and if i use the steel bar off a f150,, that comes from the carb to trans clutch will it work,, or will i still have the same problem,,, it a 93 xr7 3.8 stock modified to a 69 302 carbed motor
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Kitz Kat on January 06, 2011, 04:56:06 AM
Quote from: 93customcougar;348545
i'm doing the same swap,, and if i use the steel bar off a f150,, that comes from the carb to trans clutch will it work,, or will i still have the same problem,,, it a 93 xr7 3.8 stock modified to a 69 302 carbed motor
Your best bet would be to use a lokar cable set up, that way you know you can adjust it to what you need.
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Beau on January 06, 2011, 10:39:50 AM
Quote from: jcassity;348530
60 deg motors for both.. the 3.8 and 5.0
not sure why anyone would think the bell housings would be different.
actually the AOD 3.8L supercharged cars is the AOD go get. Im done shifting.
The c4/c6 comment,,, well then have yourself an AOD with O/D and just down shift one detent,,lol
If you're referring to the angle of the "v", then you're wrong, both the 3.8 and the 5.0 are 90* engines...;)
Title: 3.8 and 5.0 aod's???? are they the same???
Post by: Kitz Kat on January 07, 2011, 02:48:33 PM
Still available if someone really wants it. http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?19763-500-Hp-Aod