1984 Cougar
3.8L
Throttle Body
Car is stalling intermittently (not every time) when stopping.
Able to restart immediately after stall.
Replaced distributor rotor and cap.
EGR value OK (tested per shop manual instructions).
OBD-I codes show OK.
TFI replaced at 19000 miles (now 150000 on TFI).
Have noticed wiring (harness wires) seems to be brittle in places and some cracking.
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Questions:
1. Any chance removing and regreasing TFI will help?
2. Any simple solution to repair cracking without cutting wires and using heat shrink tubing?
3. Best place to get a new harness if cracking can't be resolved?
4. Any place to get the old multi_point ignition rotor -- can't find here in Arizona -- always had better luck with them than T type.
4. Other tests to perform to solve stall problem?
Thanks
David
Most likely this problem would be the fault of the Idle control motor assy forward of the CFI on driver side.
With a cold engine, does the plunger shoot out and eventually retract as the engine runs for about one minute?
If it does not,, try to adjust it forward and see if the motor starts to respond.
Check the 4 wire connector for bad wires or connection.
with the engine off and key forward, check the tps green wire for less than a volt dc. Look for 4.5vdc or better at wide open throttle.
I would also be checking the Pick up module down in the dizzy. It might be going out on you. There is a magnet on it so see if there are shavings or debris on it. You will have to remove the metal round thing with two screws but mark it to the dizzy prior to removal. if there is on it,, just insert a stronger magnet down to it and it will suck off any metal shavings. finish it off with carb cleaner. there is no drain hole in this area which really me off. the dizzy will hold water and the actual drain hole in way way in the wrong area. I drilled a hole where i thought it should be. You might wanna replace this part anyway cause these give you little warning when they go.
Next id hook up a fuel pres tester to the Shrader valve on the top of the CFI and drive the car with the guage duct taped to the windshield. Watch the presure as you drive and cycle through gears. If it drops extreeeeemly low like below 20psi,, you might wanna invest in a new pump. I purchsed the 3.8L supercharge pump fore 40 some odd dollars (just the pump) and installed it into my old pump housing assy/rubber bushing. Now when i drive, the presure gets no lower than 35 between all gears or trottle range.
My next experienced guess for stalling and bucking issues would be to remove the cfi and egr base plate. Lay a flat edge along the surface of each and check for warpage. Beltsand down the warpage and install a new gasket kit. This is a major common problem i have noticed that people tend to ignor. Ignoring the thin paper gasket on the intake to egr plate could be a problem that leads to chasing phantom problems down the line.
Next up would be to remove the injectors and just toss the injector screens for new ones or leave them out,, i have and it works fine.
Next id check to see about a vac issue. Does your PVC valve suck your finger right up,,? if not,, Remove the vac line from the driver rear side of the CFI (gold fitting). slide a wire up inside the metal tube to bust up any carbon. Run some carb cleaner up in that hole while the engine is running and womp on the trottle a little to help clean out. If your situation improves,, then you need to remove the cfi and chip away all the carbon build up in the area of the gold fitting as well as anywhere else.
EEC not dumping any codes is a good thing...... Do you end up with CODE 11?
as for the brittle wires and such,, someone else here has the same problem. Theres no reason to leave these wire on the car. change them out as far back as you can. I have not replaced this section (injector/TFI harness) so i have no idea if it dead ends along the fire wall. It should even if you have to to the Pin extaction thing incase the harness splits up between a couple different connections. That burnt wire thing is not good and needs fixed first.
as for the TFI regrease,, it might but no reason why you cant replace those scews with more reasonable types like allen or self tapper phillups.
BTW,, good job on your description of the problem,, who,what,when, where and why all adressed. :bowdown:
i have a few other suggestions but let us know what you find out.
jcassity
Thanks for response. Give me this weekend to check out your suggestions and will repost this thread.
Have noticed wire insulation looks bad on yellow wire where it enters TFI connector. Any suggestions for repair at this location or do you know of a source where I can get a new harness/partial harness with the TFI connector?
Thanks
David
that should the yellow/light green. Its probably the sprout connector wiring. If its bad then the eec isnt seeing the shorting plug and your running in "open loop" mode. If your running in open loop mode,, i dont think the eec will even provide you with any codes.
someone verify this for me please...
did you get a code 11? if you did not,, then your eec is not communicating with you at all.
dont unplug and replug this plug while the engine is running,, bad. one easy way to check to see if your running in open loop is to put a timing light on the car. If your timing is flashing on or about 10*btdc,,, then the eec is hybernating waiting for someone to fix something. If the timing is way off,, most likely your not running open loop and the eec is doing its job by advancing the timing according to current engine running conditions.
You probably have a problem if your timing shows up at 10 or so degrees.
do this test with the shorting plug in,, dont unplug it.
did you get a code 11? if you did not,, then your eec is not communicating with you at all.
YES - Code 11 for both constant and continuous test
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BTW Prior to post had checked idle control motor and worked OK --
as this was #1 on your checklist.
To fix deteriorated wire insulation I use a product called Liquid Electrical Tape. It's made by "Star brite" and comes in a yellow can with a applicator brush cap. The brush is too big and clumsy for car wiring but you can use something smaller and it works pretty good.
The insulation goes bad where the wires enter sensors and connectors.
Check where electrical supplies are sold. Mine is black but I think it also comes in red.
'The idle speed control motor connector has four wires. Two wires run the motor. The other two wires are for the idle tracking switch. When the throttle linkage presses on the ISC plunger tip (you took your foot off the gas) it makes the idle tracking switch. This tells the EEC that it is in control of the engine speed.
If this switch fails the EEC will not operate the ISC.
Idle control motor (ISC adn idle tracking switch check) 3.8 and some 5.0 engines
ISC motor>>>
yellow/black{eec pin21}ISC+
white/light blue{eec pin 41}ISC-
add power and ground to either of the above wires to extand and retract motor plunger
isc motor + to - resistance is to be about 5 ohms
motor should extend greater than 2'' from mounting braket
motor should retract less than 1.75'' from mounting braket and off the face of throttle linkage
ITS (idle tracking switch)
retract motor plunger and mesure resistance from the following
light green/white {eec pin 28}ITS
black/white {eec pin 46}(also at self test conn)SIG RTN
resistance should be less than 5 ohms.
Another way to check the ISC motor:
Remove the air cleaner so you can see the ISC motor.
Turn key on but don't start.
Install the self test jumper like you do to run the KOEO tests.
The ISC motor will retract the plunger.
The gap between the ISC motor tip and the throttle linkage should be 7/32". Use a 7/32" drill bit for a feeler gauge.
Turn key off and remove jumper.
Start the car. The ISC will extend.
It should be 9/32" (.281"), not 7/32".
oh , and by the way..........
another thread made me think of an idea for them as well as you.
after your car is warm,,,,
remove the serpintine belt and reach down to the smog pump plully.
if its hard to turn or does not free spin,,,,,
you just found your problem. smog pump is putting your engine in a bind while on decell situations. it happend to me exaclty like your situation.
The '84 shop manual says 9/32" but the manual was corrected by technical service bulletin 84-10-13.
The adjustment is 7/32" with an acceptable range of 3/16" to 1/4".
I'm just going by Probst.
My '84 T-Bird had a multipoint rotor as original equipment. The replacements have been the blade type.
Looking into this I found a service bulletin for all Ford/Merc/Linc cars 1983-86 replacing the multipoint with the blade type. They also replace the non-vented distributor cap with a vented one.
The reason they give is, the sparks in the cap cause the formation of ozone and nitrogen oxides that react to form nitric acid which deteriorates the cap and other components.
The blade type rotor generates less ozone and the vent allows the gas to escape.
They also remind you to put dieletric compound on the rotor blade tip.
The '84 shop manual says don't put dieletric on the multipoints.
I don't know if I have a vented cap or not. Something I'll have to check.
Thanks for all the responses guyes. Will be busy this weekend.
1. Fixed the electrical (plastic coming off wiring from connectors to about 1/2 back from connectors). Used a product called "plastic dip". Marketed under a number of different names including "liquid tape". Breaks down under UV, but under hood hoping this won't be an issue. Temperature range is -32 to +200F.
In talking with manufacturer indicates a number of people have used for for automotive so will see what happens.
Repaired TFI, coolant temperature sensor and manifold charge temperature sensor wiring.
2. Pulled the TFI and regreased. Ran car this pm and still intermittent failure. Get about 10 miles, and after several stops in between, engine quits on next stop. Then go about another 5 miles and OK, then if stop again, quits.
3. Will go back and double check idle speed control motor.
4. Just put a new smog pump on about 3 months ago but will doublecheck.
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JCassity, where did you get a fuel pressure tester with a hose 24-36 inches long. Longest I've seen is about 14 hose which won't reach windshield?
David
my fuel presure gauge is homemade,, its "how to" is under the
inside tips section.,,under general car work i typed up.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=2984
if you think about it,, its pretty unfair for everyone to just test the fuel pres while in park.. A bad fuel pump will show up strong and healthy but fail while under a load. Its only fair to completely simulate the complete operation of the task your troubleshooting.
im gonna venture to say you might have a pick up coil going bad on you,, its getting hot and breaking down.
the test to check the pick up / stator assembly is also in that link i posted. try to check it with the engine hot then test with the engine cold.
did we cover the coolant temp sending unit,,? on the intake?
HOLLY COW!!!
i cant belive it but here is what i found..........
Located in the "Revised edition, Engine/Emissions-Diagnosis 1987 Shop Manual by ford for car and truck.............
section 20-22
the symptom and troubleshooting procedure for
"Intermittent Quits On Road And Restarts"
the first thing they call out to do after a visual and vac check is this..........
"Install a fuel presure tester with an extention hose that allows you to tape the guage to the windshield"
gezz, and i thought i just kind of made this idea up.
It is in a good state of "tune" and run fine other than the stalling on deceleration? If so, the ISC is the most likely culprit. Most TFI failures are from heat and won't immediately restart. Fuel pressure due to poor delivery probably isn't the reason b/c there is very little fuel needed while coming to a stop. There could always be an electrical short/open circuit caused by the vibration coming to a stop.
Still working on problem.
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Question 1
Since you cannot get the multipoint ignition rotor anymore
Ford requires (per 84 shop) dialectic grease 1/32 inch thick
from the rotor tip end all along the metal connector except for
tip end which goes to ignition coil.
> The new rotor I purchased has a black coating. Is this in place of the dialectic grease?
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Question2
I find using the VOM bulky at times. For some reason can't locate the ODBI simple testers that use to be out. Thought I'd make one that would just flash to indicate sweeps.
Anyone know if this will work?
Battery(+) -----> LED -------->Resistor(value ??) ----> Pin4 on Test Connector.
question 1
im lost,,, you should not be multiport anything.
as for the rotor,, im not sure what you mean,, just stick it on the dizzy and add compound if you want to.
question 2
im lost again,, do you mean to pull codes? if so , i dont use a light bulb, i use a small buzzer i got out of a microwave wave i salvaged good parts from. I find it easier to listen while i write down codes vs watching a bulb flash and having ot look back and forth from my paper to the bulb only to question if i missed a bleep or not.
Im currently working on using the door chime as the device to pull codes. its alread built into the car and im looking into using it as a way to ding for each pulse.
are you trying to pull codes ? in this question?
check here for instructions on pulling codes and what they mean.....
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/OBD_I.html
Ford use to make a "multi-POINT" ignition rotor (was two wire sticking out instead of the "T" at the end of the rotor circle.
Thr 1984 shop manual indicates that if you use the T rotor instead of the multi-POINT you need to put dielectic grease over most of the metal of the rotor. I now see they are coating the metal with some type of black material and I was wondering if this takes the
place of the dielectic grease.
Yes, I was referring to pulling codes. Both are GREAT ideas instead of dealing with VOM or light.
Will a buzzer work directly or does it require a resistor (etc) in the circuit to work?
Thanks
David
my buzzer has its own resistance built in i guess. the coil inside it acts as the load. Anything should work that makes noise and has two wires. Anything from a beat up toy or whatever you can rob a noise maker from.
humm,, its still early and no one is up yet so ill just thumb through the evtm and see if using your car chime circuit will work.
brb.......
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can someone try this out,, my car does not test properly when i pull codes nor has it ever even with the original eec. Im reading up on troubleshooting that but it appears to be an excess in resistance on a wire somewhere.
maybe this would work,, seems simple enough to just tap into the below wire and hook up to the "STO" connection.
something tells me nothing will happen here cause the sto connection acts as a ground.
Could this possibly be a torque converter problem? I know the GM products had a solenoid that would go bad and not allow the convertor to unlock.
Is not unlocking a possibility with our convertors?
Softtouch:
Thanks for bringing the transmission idea up.
I recall the 84 shop addressing this, but the last in the list (theirs and mine). Hoping for a simple solution first. Because of being intermittent, can't reproduce so far in static mode, am taking it one step at at time -- cheapest first. Just blew out the trottle body all linkages with carb cleaner so will see if problem continues tomorrow.
Also put some graphic on the ISC plunger in case it was sticking.
David
I just got a reply back from Standard Parts. For those interested:
The black coating on the rotor segment tip is for RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) suppression.
Thanks to all for the help.
Car finally had problems first thing this AM. Got code 63, changed out throttle position sensor and back up and running.
David