Guys I am still fighting a rough idle. In the last few days I've been driving the car as much as possible and things have gotten worse.
'88 T-bird 5.0 converted to HO. Car has 188,000 miles and was converted to HO about 2000 miles ago. I'm still running Speed Density (car has a Lincoln HO SD computer). Only real mods are bbk headers, off-road h pipe, & smog pump delete.
The car will run super-duper rich at idle and sounds like its cammed out. The idle fluctuates and is very rough. When you drive the car cold it seems to miss on acceleration (makes a popping noise) or under load. Shove it into neutral and rev it and it runs fine. WOT it runs great after warmed up. Once the car is warmed up it seems to idle decent at around 700 rpms and accelerates normally with no miss.
The car also has a peculiar habit of running down the highway at highway speeds and suddenly surging (almost as if I had a foot on the brake the whole time and let it off). Rarely under WOT it will surge like it had a hit of NOS (lol, sounds silly but that's my best description). The surging was present before the swap, just not as noticable. I dont know if the two (idle and this surge) are interrelated or not.
Following was done at time of HO swap and since then:
1.) valve job
2.) new cap/rotor/plugs/plug wires
3.) New IAC, did base idle reset procedure
4.) checked the timing
5.) checked for vacuum leaks
6.) had complete new gasket set at time of head/intake/cam swap
7.) new timing chain
8.) has one new o2 sensor and one original one
9.) new fuel pump (its higher volume than stock but I can't remember how many lph it is)
10.) changed the fuel filter
I tried to pull codes tonight with a code reader but it does nothing.
Tonight I tried a base idle reset again. TPS output is .85v or so. I tried to get it close to .99 but it won't go that far. If I set it to .99, the screw holes on the TPS don't line up with the holes on the intake. I also double checked the timing and I currently have it bumped a few degrees over the base 10 degrees. I have noticed that since I messed with the timing the miss on acceleration has gotten much worse.
I also went over all my vacuum lines and thought I found the cure. The PCV valve was totally pulled out of the intake. I shoved it back in but if anything the problem got worse.
So I am at a loss. Could it be a bad EGR? The one on the car is the original one. Fuel Pressure Regulator? Again it is the original stock T-bird FPR. HELP!
I try to do most of the work on my car but this is about enough to make me take it somewhere before all my hair is pulled out. (or set it on fire)
Did you check the screen under the PCV valve to see if it's plugged up?
Are the oxygen sensor wires on the correct side?
That computer ran fine in my car so you can rule that out;)
new cap/rotor/plugs/plug wires
Is the firing order correct? Firing order is different between SO and HO setups.
hmm... A lot of us are having idle problems lately....
I would check this first, followed by a check of the PIP and the injectors.....
Thanks for the response guys. While the forum was down, I deleted the EGR so we can rule that out (there was no change afterwards).
I will pull it back out and look at the screen...man the pcv valve is a PITA to get to! I assume the o2 sensor wires are on the correct side...never thought of that though. I will have to check into it.
Yep! Spout was out! (hey that rhymes)
Yes we definatley changed the firing order from SO to HO...it runs fine most of the time. Just when it is 1st started up and tries to idle and when it is cold and under load. After you drive it awhile it may act totally fine.I did the HO swap several months ago, so this miss under load is a recent problem. It never has idled right since the HO swap, however.
I never even thought of the oxygen wire thing. What is a PIP? I'm familiar with 'PIMP' (I used to fancy myself as one), lol.
I will check everything out tonight and let you all know what I find out. I am also going to check the spark plug gap...who knows they may have been gapped wrong.
OK guys the saga continues. Tonight I did the following:
1.) pulled the PCV valve and the screen was completely clean
2.) pulled the plugs and a couple of them looked wet (due to running rich). I checked the gap and they were all gapped wrong at around .039-.043. I re-gapped them all to .054.
3.) Tried to run codes again to no avail. I can hear one sensor click at the beginning of the test and then it just stops. Not sure what the devil that means.
4.) pulled the vacuum line off the FPR and there was no fuel squirting out
5.) checked the 02 sensor wires and they look to be routed correctly. I really don't think these could have gotten swapped around on us, but I could be wrong. I would not have thought we would have gapped the plugs wrong either, so what do I know lol. My buddy that helped me do the swap builds class-winning pulling trucks with wicked BBF motors, so he knows his stuff.
6.) Double checked that the firing order is correct (I was 99.999% sure on this one but just wanted to rule it out)
After all of this, I took the car for a test run. Fired her up and it idled great. Pulled out into the road and let it shift through the 1st three gears and there was no miss under a load! I started to get a little optimistic at this point. So I took the car to the gas station and filled 'er up with 89 octane.
Leaving the gas station the darn thing missed really badly when I was pulling a hill. It pissed me off so at the next stoplight I layed into the throttle pretty hard and it popped and missed big time. I threw it into neutral and revved it and it sounded awesome (no miss).
After returning to the garage I parked it and it idled well with a very slight surge. It did not smell rich.
I turned the car off and thought "hmmm wonder what it will do if I start it again". Started it again pretty much immediately after shutting it off and took a video clip I will load later. As you will see it idles like a$$. My eyes were almost watering the darn thing was running so rich.
So how can you check the injectors? They were honestly a little crusty looking when I pulled them from the donor motor but I figured they would be fine. I wonder if a can of that parts store "fuel injector cleaner" would make a difference? My wife thinks I am obsessed with fixing this problem and she's right! This sort of stuff drives me CRAZY.
Any suggestions?
my car had the EXACT same issue and i found my o2 sensor wires were rubbed through and grounding out...
Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv-GzlySvUE
Hmmm...wonder if the wires are rubbing anywhere or have gotten burnt on the headers or h-pipe. I will definately check into that!
That sounds like it's got a cam. Hell mine doesn't even sound like that with a very mild cam:hick:
I'd look at the o2 wires and see how they look.
It's not good that you can't run codes. I know you can with that computer as I was able to do it. What ever the problem is you should be able rule out the computer as it worked fine in my car when I had it.
Yeah it sounds like a pro stock drag car when it throws a fit.
I'm not worried about the computer since you used it on your car. I am going to check the wires going to the o2's tonight and see what I can find out.
Try pulling spark plug wires one at a time.
If you have a problem with a plug, wire, valve or injector this is the best way to tell.
Just pull one off for about 10 seconds, and listen to see if it sounds any different. It should make it run a little worse since you will be misfiring that cylinder. Just keep going around the dizzy one by one until you find the one that either makes no difference, or might even make it run better. Then you can narrow it down to that cylinder and go from there.
If this doesnt work then you know it is a problem with something that affects your whole engine, like sensors or whatever.
If you can get the thing to put out codes you can run a cylinder balance test which may help you pin point the problem.
Another thought but what did you do with the wiring when the swap was done? Did you change anything in the EEC harness? The SD HO swap does not require any harness repining. Also when you deleted the smog pump what did you do with the Thermactor TAB and TAD sensors?
Its my original harness.
Hmmm. I really don't remember what we did with the sensors when we deleted the smog pump. Hell, they may just be unplugged. Remind me where those even are...
On the passenger strut tower. I ended up looping the vac lines to them so there are no vac leaks. When I run a KOER test they throw a code but nothing else.
Are you talking about these things? As far as I can see they are all still hooked up.
(http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr313/50tbrd88/car%20stuff/DSCF2275.jpg)
Also, is it wrong to have this emissions block thing unplugged with my EGR and smog pump deleted? I went ahead and took it out after I deleted the EGR but all the other vac lines have been unhooked since the HO swap.
EDIT: (In hindsight, I guess since I had this unhooked, my EGR has had no vacuum to it this whole time). Anyway, what exactly did those go to? I am thinking one went to the intake, one to the EGR?? IIRC on the one that went to the intake, we plugged the port on the intake so there was no leak.
(http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr313/50tbrd88/car%20stuff/DSCF2276.jpg)
(http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr313/50tbrd88/car%20stuff/DSCF2277.jpg)
Maybe my problem lies with all this stuff. I was thinking that since the line going to the intake was blocked off, the rubber emissions block was basically seperated from the engine and wasn't doing anthing anymore.
Oh it's VERY easy to install them backwards/on the wrong bank. Get a wiring diagram with color codes to double check as each side has different colors.
Yeah I was checking that last night and saw that they were different colored wires. I will do a search online for a wiring diagram.
In the meantime I have been thinking about it, and what I have been overlooking is that there were symptoms of this problem
before the HO conversion. I keep looking into things that were changed during the conversion, but I think I need to look back further than that.
The most noticable problem before the HO swap was the surging at speed. I thought the car needed a tuneup and maybe a new fuel pump and figured all would be well once the HO swap was done since those things would be swapped for new anyway. I also remember the car running rough when you 1st started it (it even died a few times when I put it into gear), but with the stock exhaust and all the emissions equipment on, I didn't notice it "loping" like it does now or smelling rich. I'm willing to bet it was doing the same thing then that it does now, maybe just not as bad/noticable.
I am now thinking this problem has been there all along and its just more noticable now with the loud exhaust and HO equipment.
There are quite a few things that could cause this that are original equipment. The thing that keeps popping into my mind: distributor. Its the original one with 180k plus miles so you know its probably worn. How about TFI modules...what do they usually cause when they go bad?
Thoughts?
If the TFI or PIP are going they just die. No warning, nothing. They work on day and die the next.
I just thought of something that might cause this and explain why you can't pull codes: is your neutral safety switch hooked up? If not it will cause idle surging and the inability to pull codes as the computer won't know when the car is in park or neutral.
Not sure...actually I didn't even know there was a neutral safety switch on an automatic (lol). I thought that was on manual's only.
I will check it out. I assume its probably on the side or top of the trans?
On a side note, I just got home from work and checked the 02 sensor wires. According to a schematic I printed off the internet the drivers side should have a blue wire while passenger side should have a green wire. Guess what? My drivers side has a green wire and my passenger side has a blue one. We may have a winner here. I will switch sides tomorrow after work and see what happens. Keep your fingers crossed!
The o2 wire switch would be a problem.
Yes autos have a neutral switch. That way the computer won't start the car in drive or reverse ;)
Well we may have a winner. Yesterday after work I pulled the 02 harness (which is a real beotch for a guy with big hands btw) and swapped it around.
Started the car up and it settled down into a real nice idle. Took it for a quick spin and no miss under load. I'm not gonna start jumping up and down yet, I want to put a few miles on it today and see how it acts. But my nightmare MAY be over.
Thanks for the help guys!!
Whats the verdict???...........
02 wires were on the wrong sides.
Well now you can go on power tour:D
Can you pull codes now?
I have some other work to do before power tour. Power steering pump has developed a bad leak, have a clunk in the front end I need to figure out (pretty sure its upper strut mounts), and the tranny is leaky as well. I'm thinking about doing a front end rebuild in the spring as everything is factory original 180k mile stuff.
I need to check if it will throw codes now...I bought some electrical contact cleaner and plan to clean the 'plug in' (can't hurt). I'm willing to bet it will throw codes now that the o2's are no longer crosseyed.
Thats great I bet your ecstatic!
Its always awesome when something has been fighting you FOREVER and you get it figured out. Wish I could have fixed it when my tranny was giving me hell.
Thinking I'm gonna have to do o2 sensors on my 96 soon. Every now and then I get a real rough idle on startup and occasionally comes up with lean codes on both banks. I've gone through all the usual fixes, hego's are the only thing left. Wouldn't surprise me, since their probably just as OEM as every other thing on this 190000 mile car....
Yeah, I was pretty much ready to "do a little dance, sing a little song (get down tonight)" when I realized it was finally fixed!!
The clunk is usually the upper strut mounts. I ended up redoing my front suspension at 129,000 because I figured hell if I'm replacing the upper strut mounts might as well do the control arms and rack as well. You'll be amazed at how much better the car rides.
If the car is lowered like the picture shows you might want to think about getting some CC plates and ditch the factory upper strut mounts. Maximum Motorsports sells them and they are well worth the money.
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_77&products_id=258
Darren
Yeah I was just on their website the other day checking out their wares. My car is lowered quite a bit from stock, so it would probably be smart to go this route.
One last thing as this is really deviating from the original intent of the thread is that I would look into a bump steer kit for the car as well if you are experiencing the affects of bumpsteer. I would almost assume you are as both of my cars had it and they are as low or almost as low as yours. Here is a pretty good article explaining it:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/suspension/mufp_0611_bumpsteer_explained/index.html
If you are still running the 4 lug setup (which it appears you are from the picture in your signature) then I would suggest the tapered kit and not the bolt through.
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_348&products_id=1141
I think that is the kit you need if your car runs the longer front control arms. My 83 uses the Fox Mustang length control arms and I am pretty sure the 87-88 cars use the SN95 Mustang length control arms.
Darren