Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: Masejoer on September 22, 2010, 11:19:51 PM
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Masejoer on September 22, 2010, 11:19:51 PM
I'm trying to find the left and right turn signal wires to wire up to my sequential lights so they don't sequence when pressing the brake but I can't seem to find them. There are three wires at the top of the column that all flash with the flasher, no matter which side is turned on. Which wires, and where are they located, contain power when the left or right turn signals are on? I need to tap into these.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 23, 2010, 12:48:56 AM
Light Blue Wire - From Turn Signal Flasher To Multi Function Switch To Be Split To Lights
Light Green Wire - From Stop Light Switch To Multi Function Switch To Be Split To Lights Light Green With Orange Stripe Wire - Left Rear Turn/Stop Lights (Trailer Also) Light Green With Red Hash Marks Wire - Power To Stop Light Switch Light Green With White Stripe Wire - Left Front Turn Signal & Indicator Orange With Light Blue Stripe Wire - Right Rear Turn/Stop Lights (Trailer Also) Purple With Orange Hash Marks Wire - Hot In Run From Fuse Block To Turn Signal Flasher Red With White Hash Marks Wire - Hot At All Times To Hazard Flasher White With Light Blue Stripe Wire - Right Front Turn Signal And Indicator White With Red Hash Marks Wire - From Hazard Flasher To Multi Function Switch To Be Split To Lights
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Masejoer on September 23, 2010, 09:09:57 AM
So LG/W and W/LB. Thanks!
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 23, 2010, 12:33:34 PM
Quote from: Seek;336372
So LG/W and W/LB. Thanks!
Those wire colors you listed are for the front turn signal lamps.
Rear turn signal lamps are Light Green/Orange for the left rear turn signal and Orange/Light Blue for right turn signal.
Keep in mind all the turn signal wires from the turn signal switch only supply intermittent flashing voltage. It is not a constant voltage. The way the circuit is set up is that it gets 12V+ switched from the ignition switch then it goes through the flasher first, then to the turn signal switch. The turn signal switch directs the flashing current left or right depending on which way the turn signal switch is positioned.
The turn signal switch is designed with multiple contacts. When the turn signal is activated it closes off the current from the brake lamp switch so the flashing current can use the circuit on the side that is being activated as a turn signal. There is never contant current ever going through the turn signal circuit as it will always flash since the current goes through the turn signal flasher first then to the switch. This is why optional front cornering lamps have those additional relays to keep the cornering lamps from flashing.
The hazard flasher is also designed so that current from the brake lamp switch is closed off and flashing current is switched on and directed to both sides of the turn signal circuit at the same time.
With your turn signal sequencer module it is designed only to sequence the brake lamps one time with the constant current supllied from the brake lamp switch, or continuously sequence the intermittant current from the turn signal flasher.
There are more sophisticated turn signal sequencer modules out there for Mustangs that have the circuitry built into the module that allows the brake lamps to come on without sequencing.
In order to get your brake lamps to come on and not sequence it has to bypass the sequencer module. You cannot just hook up constant voltage from the brake lamps to the taillamps. In order to do what you want to do, there has to be a way to isolate the brake lamp circuit from the turn signal circuit. The turn signal switch manages all this with the multiple contacts. If you were to tie the brake lamp current directly to the brake lamps bypassing the sequencer module, you would likely short out the sequencer module and end up blowing both the brake lamp fuse and turn signal fuse.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: hypostang on September 23, 2010, 12:46:46 PM
I'm not sure which sequential set up he is using, but the "WEB ELECTRIC" set up has circuitry built in to deal with non sequencing brake lamps by hooking to the signal indicators on the dash :D
http://www.webelectricproducts.com/products.htm
go to the online instructions and it shows how to wire it
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Masejoer on September 23, 2010, 01:41:17 PM
Quote from: Watchdevil;336384
Those wire colors you listed are for the front turn signal lamps.
Rear turn signal lamps are Light Green/Orange for the left rear turn signal and Orange/Light Blue for right turn signal.
Rear wires are turn AND brake according to the above wiring diagram - those wires aren't for turn signal only so they are useless to me. I need to tap into turn signal only wires for the webelectric sequencers. It'd be nice if they worked off of the brake pedal instead since that is actually what we're trying to control and it's easier to wire up to but I think different cars handle their brake pedal switches and such differently so the design looks for turn signal indication instead which the instrument cluster lights do provide, shared with the same LG/W and W/LB as the front signals.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 23, 2010, 02:31:35 PM
Quote from: Seek;336390
Rear wires are turn AND brake according to the above wiring diagram - those wires aren't for turn signal only so they are useless to me. I need to tap into turn signal only wires for the webelectric sequencers. It'd be nice if they worked off of the brake pedal instead since that is actually what we're trying to control and it's easier to wire up to but I think different cars handle their brake pedal switches and such differently so the design looks for turn signal indication instead which the instrument cluster lights do provide, shared with the same LG/W and W/LB as the front signals.
I am not certain how you plan to isolate your brake lamp function from your turn signal function when the bulb sockets in the taillamps only have one "hi" connection and filament and both turn signals and brake lamps share the same bulbs. Function of the brake lamp current HAS to be isolated and diconnected through switching for the turn signals to flash, with or without a turn signal sequencer.
For cars that have seperate and dedicated turn signal sockets and bulbs, the brake lamp circuit is simply not connected into the turn signal circuit in the turn signal switch. It bypasses the turn signal switch and goes directly to the dedicated brake lamp bulbs. This is how high mounted stop lamps function with no interference from the turn signal flashing operation.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: hypostang on September 23, 2010, 02:55:28 PM
Quote from: Watchdevil;336394
I am not certain how you plan to isolate your brake lamp function from your turn signal function when the bulb sockets in the taillamps only have one "hi" connection and filament and both turn signals and brake lamps share the same bulbs. Function of the brake lamp current HAS to be isolated and diconnected through switching for the turn signals to flash, with or without a turn signal sequencer.
For cars that have seperate and dedicated turn signal sockets and bulbs, the brake lamp circuit is simply not connected into the turn signal circuit in the turn signal switch. It bypasses the turn signal switch and goes directly to the dedicated brake lamp bulbs. This is how high mounted stop lamps function with no interference from the turn signal flashing operation.
It appears that the isolation circuit is built in to the module that Web Electric makes , but I could be wrong. Best I can tell ,by wiring it to the indicators it only allows the module to sequence when the turn signal is on
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Masejoer on September 23, 2010, 09:04:10 PM
Quote from: hypostang;336397
Best I can tell ,by wiring it to the indicators it only allows the module to sequence when the turn signal is on
This is true - the fronts will light up on high only when the turn signal is on (and of course, not when the brake lights are on), so it can be tapped into to provide the signal to the sequencers of when the turn signals are on, versus the other times when the brakes may be on (like it would show if you tapped into the rear bulb wires).
The difference of the front turn signals only being on when using the turn signals and never turning on when the brakes are pressed allows us to know if the power being fed to the rear lights is brake or signal. I understand that both are going down the same wire, from the front of the car but I'm not worried about that.
The indicators that hypostang is talking about is fed from the exact same wire as the front lights, as per the diagram from Watchdevil.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 24, 2010, 12:24:09 AM
Quote from: hypostang;336397
It appears that the isolation circuit is built in to the module that Web Electric makes , but I could be wrong. Best I can tell ,by wiring it to the indicators it only allows the module to sequence when the turn signal is on
The new updated WebElectric Sequencers have Smart Sequence technology to keep the lamps from sequencing when the brakes are on and will only sequence the taillamp that is activated for a turn signal. They also automatically adjust the flash rate according to the speed of the flasher.
These WebElectric Sequencers are plug and play with no modifications.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 24, 2010, 12:25:36 AM
Quote from: hypostang;336397
It appears that the isolation circuit is built in to the module that Web Electric makes , but I could be wrong. Best I can tell ,by wiring it to the indicators it only allows the module to sequence when the turn signal is on
The isolation circuit is built into the new updated Web Electric sequencer modules.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 24, 2010, 12:32:13 AM
Quote from: Seek;336451
This is true - the fronts will light up on high only when the turn signal is on (and of course, not when the brake lights are on), so it can be tapped into to provide the signal to the sequencers of when the turn signals are on, versus the other times when the brakes may be on (like it would show if you tapped into the rear bulb wires).
The difference of the front turn signals only being on when using the turn signals and never turning on when the brakes are pressed allows us to know if the power being fed to the rear lights is brake or signal. I understand that both are going down the same wire, from the front of the car but I'm not worried about that.
The indicators that hypostang is talking about is fed from the exact same wire as the front lights, as per the diagram from Watchdevil.
You still have not established how you intend to isolate the brake lamps from your turn signal lamp circuit. If you tap into the front turn signal lamp wires, the wires still run to the sequencer which in turn goes to the bulb sockets. When you step on the brake they will be running through the existing wires directly to the same bulb sockets. The way you are proposing, as soon as you step on the brakes, the turn signals will never sequence during any turn signal and you will now be sending the current from the brake lamps backwards into the sequencer module.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 24, 2010, 02:44:23 AM
From what I understand with the wiring you are proposing, this is the circuit you will end up with which will keep the left taillamp on constant without sequencing during a left turn signal and brakes on at the same time.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 24, 2010, 03:03:55 AM
In his first message Seek did not establish that he was using WebElectric Sequencers with the built in brake lamp anti-sequencing circuitry. This did not become appaent until post #5, so I was quite confused thinking that he was using some other brand sequencer that did not have the anti-sequence option for the brake lamps.
Most other manufactured brake lamp sequencers do not have the ability to keep the brake lamps from sequencing. I bought a set for my 08 Mustang and and the brake lamps sequence once and stay on. However I actually do like that feature better than for all the brake lamp bulbs coming on at once.
However I would not mind one of WebElectric's newer sequencers for my car that control the sequencing rate. I would like them to sequence slower.
Anyway I cleaned up and deleted some erroneous posts from this thread so it reads better.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: jcassity on September 24, 2010, 04:08:45 AM
overcomplicating it seek
use an inexpensive radio shack micro switch mounted to your brake pedal ,,:D im sure you can figure it out from here,,getting the switch to provide the ground to the brake signal should be easy now.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Masejoer on September 24, 2010, 11:40:51 AM
Quote from: jcassity;336488
overcomplicating it seek
use an inexpensive radio shack micro switch mounted to your brake pedal ,,:D im sure you can figure it out from here,,getting the switch to provide the ground to the brake signal should be easy now.
There are ways with additional wiring, yes, and you bring up a good point - I could probably tap into the existing brake switch and use it to provide my signal so I know when the brakes are on, utilizing it to give me indication of the turn signal or hazard being on and with some simple wiring at the new tail light harness, the sequencers can get their signal on anything that is not-brake. I would likely just cheat and use a 5 terminal relay since a failed relay would just cause it to sequence on brakes again - no biggy although relays are pretty fragile when you're switching it with every brake pedal press. I don't have things available at the moment to do it with mosfets, although I've got a few hundred high amperage ones, and some drivers, packed away.
Or just finish up the wiring to the steering column...
So, what does the factory brake switch give us? Ground? I don't see it in the electrical diagrams.
Honestly, in the end, I'd like to make a sequencing module that would just plug in at the tail light harness connector, with two additional wires of course.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Watchdevil on September 25, 2010, 02:59:18 AM
Quote from: Seek;336520
There are ways with additional wiring, yes, and you bring up a good point - I could probably tap into the existing brake switch and use it to provide my signal so I know when the brakes are on, utilizing it to give me indication of the turn signal or hazard being on and with some simple wiring at the new tail light harness, the sequencers can get their signal on anything that is not-brake. I would likely just cheat and use a 5 terminal relay since a failed relay would just cause it to sequence on brakes again - no biggy although relays are pretty fragile when you're switching it with every brake pedal press. I don't have things available at the moment to do it with mosfets, although I've got a few hundred high amperage ones, and some drivers, packed away.
Or just finish up the wiring to the steering column...
So, what does the factory brake switch give us? Ground? I don't see it in the electrical diagrams.
Honestly, in the end, I'd like to make a sequencing module that would just plug in at the tail light harness connector, with two additional wires of course.
The factory brake lamp switch does not provide a ground. 12V+ unswitched from the battery stays hot all the time and when the brakes are pressed it passes the current from the brake lamp switch directly to the turn signal switch which distributes the 12V+ to the LH & RH brake/turn bulbs. The only ground is the black wires from each taillamp socket which is all junctioned in the wiring harness and grounded to the rear body panel.
You have a third brake lamp mounted in the rear window since you have a 1986 and newer model. It functions independently of the taillamp brake lamps and has it's own dedicated wire. No need to run a wire all the way to the front when the 3rd brake lamp wire is right there only a couple of feet away. The brake lamp switch has a light green wire that runs to the back of the car to the third brake lamp that is junctioned to the light green wire that goes to the turn signal switch which distributes the brake lamp current to the left and right taillamps. You have to cut the light green wire within the run that goes only to the turn signal switch. Likely the junction for the two light green brake lamp wires is close to the brake lamp switch where I believe two wires are joined into one terminal on the brake lamp switch connector.
A long time ago when I had my 1985 Tbird I got the silly idea to make the back-up lamps into amber turn signals. I remember cutting the supply wire from the brake lamp switch to the turn signal switch then running a new wire from front to back from the brake lamp switch. I just simply wired the turn signals to the back-up lamp socket, installed an amber bulb and installed a second 912 bulb and socket below that in the same back-up lamp section housing to retain the back-up lamps. For the brake lamps, I just connected the new run of wire to the four red section taillamp sockets while also extending a run of wire to my decklid to light up the third brake lamp in my 1994-98 Cobra style wing that I installed.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: jcassity on September 25, 2010, 09:35:44 AM
for the record, no on said to use the existing brake switch. Its a power delivery component, not a ground control.
the brake switch showes up in various places, like on pg206.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Masejoer on September 25, 2010, 12:44:26 PM
Quote from: jcassity;336624
for the record, no on said to use the existing brake switch.
I understand that was curious how it told the car that it was depressed. So it's hot at all times and delivers a positive signal when switched on - that's all I was curious about. I like the idea of pulling this from the 3rd brake light wire though as it's much more elegant. I will re-run my wires and feed the signal it to the tail lamps as the control wire.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: hypostang on September 25, 2010, 01:30:25 PM
Quote from: Seek;336649
I understand that was curious how it told the car that it was depressed. So it's hot at all times and delivers a positive signal when switched on - that's all I was curious about. I like the idea of pulling this from the 3rd brake light wire though as it's much more elegant. I will re-run my wires and feed the signal it to the tail lamps as the control wire.
Will this accomplish what you are trying to do? I got lost a few posts ago :hick:
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Masejoer on September 25, 2010, 10:11:50 PM
I just need a way to know whether the power being fed to the brake bulbs is brake or turn signal. If I know turn signal, I can use that, but if I know brake, I can use it to know when it's NOT on signal. Hazards doesn't matter much.
5 pin relays or mosfets handle the rest. I may use a relay temporarily until I get a correct mosfet. I assume capacitance won't matter much in such a simple circuit but I need to make sure I don't need a pulldown resistor.
Title: Column - turn signal wires
Post by: Masejoer on September 28, 2010, 10:29:30 AM
Yeah...I don't know what I was thinking. I have to pull the signal straight from the front lamps/indicator bulbs or else I'd have brake+signal state issues. Oh well. Back to the initial plan of splicing in at the steering column.