Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: Watchdevil on May 16, 2010, 10:48:14 PM
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 16, 2010, 10:48:14 PM
Okay I am miffed! This is rather detailed so read carefully.
The Bird has a habit of allowing the starter to keep running after I release the key. I have already replaced the starter solenoid on the fender well not too long ago. I figured I could have gotten a py selenoid so I put a new one on today and it still does the same thing. I tested the current on the solenoid a few different ways. I pulled the S wire from the ignition switch off the selenoid and as soon as I put the ground cable back on the battery it tries to start. When I test the selenoid I still get voltage on the starter cable side when this thing is "stuck" and the S terminal is not connected. I am thinking to myself what is keeping the solenoid switch closed to pass the current to the starter? If I wait a few minutes, this problem cures itself and I can put the negative cable back on and the car will no longer try to start on it's own.
So what could be giving the starter 12V when the S wire is disconnected? I assumed the solenoid was sticking. But another brand new solenoid? Does't make sense. What am I missing? It seems voltage is somehow backfeeding from somewhere to the starter cable or positive connection.
Everyone's thoughts are appreciated...
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: CoogarXR on May 16, 2010, 10:51:25 PM
When it is sticking, whack it with a wrench or something. If it stops after a whack, it was sticking.
Maybe your starter is drawing an unusual amount of current and welding the contacts on the solenoid? That happens in smaller relays when they are overdrawn...
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 16, 2010, 11:13:52 PM
Quote from: CoogarXR;322171
When it is sticking, whack it with a wrench or something. If it stops after a whack, it was sticking.
Maybe your starter is drawing an unusual amount of current and welding the contacts on the solenoid? That happens in smaller relays when they are overdrawn...
That has to be the problem.. It cannot be anything else. I have done nothing for the past few minutes looking at typical Ford starter and battery wiring diagrams and the starter is isolated from everything else in the electrical system and if the S contact is not connected then the starter must be the culprit drawing too much current causing the solenoid to stay closed.
Thanks for chiming in. Looks like I need to replace the starter. I wonder if the new solenoid is damaged at this point. Lately I have learned not to start the car unless the hood is up so I can run and disconnect the negative battery cable. I don't even have the negative cable tight right now so I can pull it off with my hand.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: HAVI on May 16, 2010, 11:24:03 PM
try a different solenoid.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 16, 2010, 11:32:44 PM
Quote from: HAVI;322182
try a different solenoid.
I did already. This is the third solenoid. I replaced the original a couple months ago and the problem seemed to have gone away until a couple weeks ago it started doing it with the new solenoid. I bought another new solenoid today and it did the same thing right away when I first started it up after I installed it.
Oh yeah and I keep mispelling solenoid... DUH!
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: HAVI on May 16, 2010, 11:35:23 PM
Got a spare ignition switch? Typically, there's only 3 things in a starting system that can go wrong, short of wires rubbed bare and crossing. Starter, Solenoid, and key switch.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 16, 2010, 11:43:58 PM
Quote from: HAVI;322185
Got a spare ignition switch?
Now I am also wondering if it is indeed the ignition switch. I had already thought of this but dismissed it. The original is still on the car. I removed the "S" terminal from the solenoid when this happened and the solenoid stayed stuck. I tested the "S" terminal wire and it had no voltage with the key released. What I need to test for now is to see if the voltage on the "S" terminal stays on after releasing the key at any given time. This would in indeed cause the solenoid to stay engaged long enough that the high current may fuse the contacts in the solenoid closed until it cools off.
And I completely forgotten when I put the new solenoid in today and tried starting it, it would do nothing for the first couple of tries. I checked the smaller wires connected to the solenoid to make sure I did not miss something. After that it started and would not stop.
Thanks for the help...
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jcassity on May 17, 2010, 12:28:38 AM
starter bendix,, new at napa for 18 dollars.
too easy.
the design of the bendix is to shoot out the gear upon the ring gear of the fly wheel , and upon you releasing the ign sw the bendix gets pulled back by the spring in the bendix cover on the starter.
The problem is the bendix isnt getting pulled back and therefore, due to the angle of the bendix teeth, when the engine fires up the bendix stays or "gets held on" to the flywheel so to speak.
Odds are in favor its the starter.
after the car starts, the noise may make sound as though the starter is still cranking when in fact its just spooling.
Id first check the bendix and see if you can walk the bendix out by hand and check for wobble. A brush kit/bendix and good cleaning should be a bad try for a good fix. Another option is to just start doing the lifetime replacement deal with your new parts from now on. A burr on the bendix can also keep it in the out position causing to to not release as well.
yes a starter solenoid could be contact welded. when the problem is happening, shut down the car quickly and remove the wiring on the in/out of the solenoid to check for condintuity across it. if it still has condinuity, but it appears the resistance is in flux, the solenoid is in a period of cool down so it will eventually open up and be ready for a new start. if you see continuity , the solenoid is bad as well.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Haystack on May 17, 2010, 01:00:43 AM
I would vote solenoid. I had the same problem on an old 86 when I bought it. It had a new flywheel and starter when I bought it. Brought it home and started it up and then it wouldn't release. I swapped the solenoid and had the same problem. I then swapped one from another car and never had another problem. The solenoid was brand new and faulty.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: mcb82gt on May 17, 2010, 08:07:48 AM
My only other guess was maybe the ignition switch. If it hasnt been replaced already, some say it is a good idea to prevent a short and fire.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 17, 2010, 01:43:15 PM
Quote from: jcassity;322194
starter bendix,, new at napa for 18 dollars.
too easy.
the design of the bendix is to shoot out the gear upon the ring gear of the fly wheel , and upon you releasing the ign sw the bendix gets pulled back by the spring in the bendix cover on the starter.
The problem is the bendix isnt getting pulled back and therefore, due to the angle of the bendix teeth, when the engine fires up the bendix stays or "gets held on" to the flywheel so to speak.
Odds are in favor its the starter.
after the car starts, the noise may make sound as though the starter is still cranking when in fact its just spooling.
Id first check the bendix and see if you can walk the bendix out by hand and check for wobble. A brush kit/bendix and good cleaning should be a bad try for a good fix. Another option is to just start doing the lifetime replacement deal with your new parts from now on. A burr on the bendix can also keep it in the out position causing to to not release as well.
yes a starter solenoid could be contact welded. when the problem is happening, shut down the car quickly and remove the wiring on the in/out of the solenoid to check for condintuity across it. if it still has condinuity, but it appears the resistance is in flux, the solenoid is in a period of cool down so it will eventually open up and be ready for a new start. if you see continuity , the solenoid is bad as well.
Definitely not the bendix. The symptom is definitely the starter keeps on running and the only way to stop it is to take off the negative battery cable. When I put the cable back on it instantly starts.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 17, 2010, 01:45:32 PM
Quote from: mcb82gt;322214
My only other guess was maybe the ignition switch. If it hasnt been replaced already, some say it is a good idea to prevent a short and fire.
Definitely going to put in a new ignition switch as a measure of safety and elimination of cause. It's the original and it is old.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Chuck W on May 17, 2010, 01:45:51 PM
Replace the starter solenoid.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: tbirdsps on May 17, 2010, 04:58:38 PM
Ok, I thought I'd add the bad news.
My 92 Tbird did just this same thing. Starter kept on running unless I turned off the key.
I'm so smart I changed the ignition switch....no change...
I'm so smart I changed the solenoid...no change.
Surely it can't be the starter....wrong! That's what fixed it. I've never had another problem. It was the bendix. It would not disengage, but only sometimes.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on May 17, 2010, 08:58:46 PM
Interesting...Watchdevil, I had the same issue last year, my problem was Napa solenoids. Had the original go out, replaced with Napa, worked for a month, failed(Stuck on), replaced with another one, failed 2 months later 150+ miles from home(Stuck on), replaced with ford OE for less than the cost of the other two, still going strong 6 months later.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 18, 2010, 01:48:44 AM
Quote from: tbirdsps;322253
Ok, I thought I'd add the bad news.
My 92 Tbird did just this same thing. Starter kept on running unless I turned off the key.
I'm so smart I changed the ignition switch....no change...
I'm so smart I changed the solenoid...no change.
Surely it can't be the starter....wrong! That's what fixed it. I've never had another problem. It was the bendix. It would not disengage, but only sometimes.
You have a 1992 Thunderbird with the newer type Ford starters that has the solenoid piggy back on the starter motor. In your case a stuck bendix will cause the solenoid contacts to stay closed. My car has the classic Ford starter with the fender mounted solenoid.
Mine keeps spinning the starter with the key OFF!
If the solenoid is working properly, it is supposed to cut the current to the starter completely when the key is released whether the bendix is stuck or not. The only way a classic Ford starter gets 12V is if the solenoid contacts are closed. There is no constant supply of voltage to the starter at all times. so, it has to be the ignition switch not disengaging the 12V to the S terminal or the starter is drawing so much current that it is fusing the contacts stuck closed during starting.
This is a typical Ford starter wiring diagram for our 88 and earlier cars regardless of engine size. (http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/EDiagrams/files/Diagrams_StartIgnition83to882_9.JPG)
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 18, 2010, 02:04:05 AM
Quote from: jrad235;322270
Interesting...Watchdevil, I had the same issue last year, my problem was Napa solenoids. Had the original go out, replaced with Napa, worked for a month, failed(Stuck on), replaced with another one, failed 2 months later 150+ miles from home(Stuck on), replaced with ford OE for less than the cost of the other two, still going strong 6 months later.
I am wondering about all these solenoids auto parts stores sell. They should not fuse themselves together that easily. I can always start my car on the first try and in some cases at least the second.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on May 18, 2010, 09:02:47 AM
Yeah, mine usually starts within a couple cranks. Just go buy the solenoid at the dealer, should be fine.
I was very unnerved when mine did it because it was dark out, and I certainly wasn't expecting it.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: rodsterh on May 18, 2010, 10:44:23 AM
Make sure you have a good, fully charged battery. Doesn't seem logical that it could be the battery but I've had good sources tell me that can be (part of) the problem. Weirdness can happen at low voltage/high current.
Makes sense to have everything in the starting circuit working properly.
Like other folks mentioned, don't always trust new parts, there seems to be a lot of import junk being sold these days.
I just recently bought a new headlight for an Escort and the hi/lo beams were wired incorrectly! :mad:
After searching the forums for information, I found out it was a known problem that was made known to the manufacturer but a correction was never made.
Just shows how much concern there is for building quality parts for the US market. The only concern seems to be $$$$$
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jcassity on May 19, 2010, 12:55:43 AM
Quote from: Watchdevil;322239
Definitely not the bendix. The symptom is definitely the starter keeps on running and the only way to stop it is to take off the negative battery cable. When I put the cable back on it instantly starts.
well ,, then I suppose your right on your theory the solenoid contacts are staying closed / fusing together.
Never had that exact symptom ever! Had others but not that one.
Thats gotta be hell on the solenoid and the starter.
change em out as a matched set. ign/starter / solenoid. Theyve had too much abnormal abuse and no telling what contacts are over tempered with all these watts.
Did you bother to check and see if the solenoid has continuity across it with the batt unhooked? and see if it opens when it cools down?
hop you have the TFI sprout conn undone during all this batt unhook/rehook. May spike the pickup or the tfi if your not careful....or even the alt voltage regulator.
we cant predict everything though, im sure you'll get to the bottom of it.
I busted open one of these solenoids once,, never did find the little diode illustrated. I did find one helava spring though.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 19, 2010, 01:14:41 AM
Quote from: jcassity;322413
.
Did you bother to check and see if the solenoid has continuity across it with the batt unhooked? and see if it opens when it cools down?
Yes I did and the solenoid did have continuity with the battery unhooked. After it finally cooled down there was no longer continuity. It has been raining so I have not had time to see if the S wire from the ignition switch is staying on longer than it should possibly causing the solenoid to stay closed too long and fusing the contacts together inside. However, today I made someone's day at work by figuring out he had no voltage to the "S" terminal on the solenoid of his Ford Ranger when he turned the key to start. I told him ignition switch or clutch switch. The clutch switch is flimsy plastic and delicate and I told him to check that first then procede to the ignition switch. Got him started back up so he could leave by jumping the "S" terminal on the solenoid to the battery + lead.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jcassity on May 19, 2010, 01:34:04 AM
your prob right then,, the solenoid is the main issue.
think about it, it fixes itself when it cools down.
Its jaming up intermally. the specs are off on the plunger inside it and its probably cantering slightly. drill out the rivits, add some slight lubrication, add screws in place of riivts and see what happens. I know your the type that likes to totally disect problems to the level of perfection.
I cant see how the ign sw could be the primary culpert and not be getting hot to you by feeling it when the trouble is in process.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 19, 2010, 01:42:15 AM
Quote from: jcassity;322419
your prob right then,, the solenoid is the main issue.
think about it, it fixes itself when it cools down.
Its jaming up intermally. the specs are off on the plunger inside it and its probably cantering slightly. drill out the rivits, add some slight lubrication, add screws in place of riivts and see what happens. I know your the type that likes to totally disect problems to the level of perfection.
I cant see how the ign sw could be the primary culpert and not be getting hot to you by feeling it when the trouble is in process.
Do you suppose the angle it's mounted has anything to do with it not returning open easier? One othe thing i forgot to mention was that the original solenoid in the car was the one that was low profile and sit flush against the inside fender. I replaced it with the same type. However when I looked up parts for my car it shows that it should have the old style solenoid with the stand off bracket. My initial diagnosis entertained the possibility that water was saturating the flush mount solenoid when it was raining. So this last solenoid I bought I got the stand-off bracket type so water will not directing flow onto it. Seemed to make no difference though, the new stand-off solenoid fused up closed and cooled off later.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jcassity on May 19, 2010, 01:50:11 AM
them solenoids dont need help from gravity,, upside down or sideways, that spring in there is very strong. it could oppose anything and win.
my gut says its either the diode is shorted or the plunger itself is engaging crooked
Im surprised that you can not interrupt the problem while it is process by tapping on the side of the solenoid pretty hard with a screwdriver handle or hunk of wood.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jcassity on May 19, 2010, 01:53:16 AM
hey, just had a funky idea........ get yourself one of those spray cans of air for pc cleaning.
shake it up real friggin good flip it upside down and spray the solenoid. basically freezing it ,,sort of.
quickly go start the car and see if the solenoid keeps the starter going.
if it doesnt, you just manipulated the heat ingredient and prevneted the problem,,but also you just found the problem for real.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 19, 2010, 02:01:09 AM
Quote from: jcassity;322424
hey, just had a funky idea........ get yourself one of those spray cans of air for pc cleaning.
shake it up real friggin good flip it upside down and spray the solenoid. basically freezing it ,,sort of.
quickly go start the car and see if the solenoid keeps the starter going.
if it doesnt, you just manipulated the heat ingredient and prevneted the problem,,but also you just found the problem for real.
Good idea man!
After the last starter run-on incident I have not been able to get the problem to duplicate. It just happens from time to time...
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 19, 2010, 02:02:30 AM
Quote from: jcassity;322423
them solenoids dont need help from gravity,, upside down or sideways, that spring in there is very strong. it could oppose anything and win.
my gut says its either the diode is shorted or the plunger itself is engaging crooked
Im surprised that you can not interrupt the problem while it is process by tapping on the side of the solenoid pretty hard with a screwdriver handle or hunk of wood.
I did try that with no luck... I was beating that new solenoid with a wrench and it decided it was not going to let go until it cooled off. It's a thermal thing it seems.
Seriously I have thought about running a starter cut off switch inside the car until this is fixed... LOL!
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jcassity on May 19, 2010, 02:11:35 AM
yeah, we can read about the fire later.
a push button momentary on/off might be cool,,like vinnies. he put a lot of work into it.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jcassity on May 19, 2010, 02:17:59 AM
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on May 19, 2010, 08:31:48 PM
Seriously Watchdevil?! OE SOLENOID!
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 19, 2010, 11:10:15 PM
Quote from: jcassity;322430
yeah, we can read about the fire later.
a push button momentary on/off might be cool,,like vinnies. he put a lot of work into it.
I have one on my Mustang already. I hardly ever use it now though it was a fun novelty when I first got it and it just looks better than the power outlet. I could care less about having push button start on my Tbird and if I had a 2010 Mustang I would not want it either because the power outlet is now covered by a flip open lid.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on May 21, 2010, 11:24:06 PM
As long as yours is Motorcraft.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 29, 2010, 12:00:28 AM
I was working on the car Tuesday and I went to start it and.. you guessed it... the starter kept running again. This time the battery was drained to the point that it had very few cranking amps and the voltage dropped to about 10v. The solenoid was again stuck. It got late and i just disconnected the battery. The next morning I tested the solenoid again and it was still stuck testing the continuity from the battery side to the starter side and from the starter side to the ignition switch "S" terminal side.
I took the battery to work and recharged it. Before putting the battery back into the tray, I disconnected the starter cable from the solenoid. I tested the solenoid again and by then it was unstuck. I hooked the battery back up and tested all the electrical circuits by turning on the key and watching the gauges, dash lights and listening for the solenoid to engage and it all worked as it should. At this point I have not cranked it again. I plan to get a Motorcraft solenoid before I start it again.
Does anyone remember many months ago in a thread or my resto thread that I mentioned that when I was relocating my TFI module I had to unfasten the distrubutor and turn it to get the original TFI module off? And does anyone remember that I mentioned that when I turned the distributor to one extreme or another, at a certain point the engine would attempt to crank? This is with the key off mind you.
I have been trying to find something in the electrical circuit that may cause the solenoid to stay engaged after I release the ignition key. I just replaced the ignition switch with a new one and it made no difference.
I was examining an electrical diagram of a typical Ford ignition and starter circuit and noticed that the "S" terminal wire Red/Light Blue is tied into a connection to the TFI module.
I have been suspecting live voltage somehow traveling from the TFI module directly over to the "S" terminal on the solenoid which leads me to believe something is happening to make this voltage exist and run to the solenoid when I turn the distrubutor to adjust it while the key is off.
This might explain the frequent starter run-on when I start the engine. I believe perhaps at the moment I turn the key and release it possibly there is voltage coming from the TFI module keeping the solenoid closed long enough for the starter to run on and overheat the solenoid contacts so that they get stuck in a closed position.
Any thoughts from anyone about this????
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 29, 2010, 12:13:28 AM
Again using Vinnie's Tbird schematic...
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on May 29, 2010, 01:50:27 AM
Quote from: jrad235;322270
Interesting...Watchdevil, I had the same issue last year, my problem was Napa solenoids. Had the original go out, replaced with Napa, worked for a month, failed(Stuck on), replaced with another one, failed 2 months later 150+ miles from home(Stuck on), replaced with ford OE for less than the cost of the other two, still going strong 6 months later.
Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall....
But only briefly, then I realize how frustrating it is to have a problem with your car. So, I feel for you, but you need to take it one step at a time, and the first step is to buy a FORD solenoid from FORD.
It never does any good to jump ahead of yourself into obscure solutions before trying the easy ones. Although that is an interesting occurrence you mention, I haven't ever heard of that.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 29, 2010, 11:59:23 PM
Quote from: jrad235;323547
Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall....
But only briefly, then I realize how frustrating it is to have a problem with your car. So, I feel for you, but you need to take it one step at a time, and the first step is to buy a FORD solenoid from FORD.
It never does any good to jump ahead of yourself into obscure solutions before trying the easy ones. Although that is an interesting occurrence you mention, I haven't ever heard of that.
Seriously it baffeled me when several I had done the TFI relocation to get the original TFI module off then later after I completed the relocation I was turning the distributor to adjust it before I tightened it down and the engine would try to crank. I never heard of this happening before it happened to me.
I am definitely going to get me a Motorcraft solenoid and try that first. If that does not help then the next step will be the starter itself since it could be drawing more current than it should while starting.
I just wanted to throw out there what I discovered about the ignition switch wire being tied into the TFI module after studying the wiring diagrams.
Do any of the later model year high torque starters with the piggy back solenoid bolt right up to the 1984 5.0 blocks as a direct swap?
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on May 30, 2010, 01:35:46 AM
I believe that any starter off an engine with the SBF bell pattern will work, you just have to redo some wiring(Or jumper the solenoid), so the I6(Econoline, F150), Esshag(Not cologne) V6(Mustang/Taurus?), the 5.0(Mustang/F150/Etc, should all have viable starters. The one I have to replace mine when the time comes came off an E150 Inline 6.
This should help: Wiki - Late Windsor bell Patterns (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_bellhousing_patterns#Later_Windsor_V8_pattern")
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Beau on May 30, 2010, 09:54:32 AM
Quote from: Watchdevil;323617
Do any of the later model year high torque starters with the piggy back solenoid bolt right up to the 1984 5.0 blocks as a direct swap?
read THIS (http://"http://www.coolcats.net/tech/advanced/starter.html") before anymore verbal dribble takes place...
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 30, 2010, 11:59:40 AM
Most alternator shops can rebuild the old style starters for around $30 to $50. If you want to swap over to the mini starter then find one in a salvage yard and wire it up like the link shows in the post above. I would suggest running 4 Ga wire from the battery side of the fender mounted starter solenoid to the BATT terminal on the mini starter solenoid. You would also be good to run a 12 Ga wire from the starter side of the fender mounted solenoid to the male spade terminal on the mini starter solenoid. I have the mini starters on both my cars and they work great.
My personal feeling is that you have a starter problem. I run the starter solenoids from O'Reillys and have zero problems with them. I am a bit of a freak when it comes to my electrical system as I pull the starter and alternator off every two years or so and have a shop check them out. At a minimum they get new brushes and bearings. I would much rather have them 100% and know it than be on the side of the road in East Texas...think banjos man.
Pull the starter and take it to a reputable shop and have them check it out. While you are at it take them your alternator if it has not been checked in a few years.
Darren
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Beau on May 30, 2010, 12:31:30 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;323651
My personal feeling is that you have a starter problem.
Ditto.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on May 31, 2010, 04:16:04 AM
Thanks so much fellas for the input! I am definitely going to replace the starter with the mini-starter. Hopefully that will cure all my starter run on problems and keep from frying more solenoids.
Time for another trip to the salvage yard in a couple of days. I need to get a wiper control module for later model Fords so I can use the wiper switch function on my newer style combination turn signal/wiper switch.
I am also wiring up a Mustang convertible top console switch to handle the power antenna using two Bosch style relays to manage the circuits. The switch is only three wires and I need to isolate grounds and positives so the antenna can go up and down by switching polarity.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 04, 2010, 10:31:05 AM
Aghhhh! I almost had me a high torque starter out of a 1993 Tbird but I could not get the top bolt loose and I was not equipped to deal with it...
It is difficult to find a vehicle with a 3.8 or 5.0 with this starter. I came across numerous 4.0 and 4.6 cars. Later, I am going to try another yard on the North side of Charlotte. If I cannot find anything there I will break down, spend a little more and buy a reman from where I work.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 04, 2010, 11:42:45 AM
92 and up 302's and 351's have these starters. I have heard that you want to get the starter off of an automatic with a 351 as the manual transmission units are different but I have not confirmed this. The 3.8L cars also have this starter as well. I got mine off of a 99 V-6 mustang. The Explorer's are a great source for these starters.
Darren
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 04, 2010, 11:51:55 AM
Okay, I did a little more digging and found this information on the Corral:
The starters are the same for auto or manual on '82-95, but on earlier years the manual and auto have different fitment. The same PMGR starter fits all applications below.
(1996-92) Ford Bronco 4.9L, 5.0L, 5.8L w/ AT (2002-92) Ford E Series 4.2L, 4.9L, 5.0L, 5.8L (1998-92) Ford F Series 4.2L, 4.9L, 5.0L, 5.8L (1991-90) Ford LTD Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis 5.0L (2004-94) Ford Mustang 3.8L (1995-92) Ford Mustang 5.0L (1997-90) Ford Thunderbird 3.8L, 5.0L (1992-90) Lincoln Mark VII 5.0L (1990) Lincoln Town Car 5.0L (1997-89) Mercury Cougar 3.8L, 5.0L Also retrofits (1991-82) Ford Mustangs 5.0L (302 CID) All (1979-68) Ford Mustangs 5.0L (302 CID) w/ AT (1973-69) Ford Mustangs 5.8L (351 CID) w/ AT
With that I would think that if you found one off of any of the cars in the above list it would work for you.
Darren
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Blown306Cougar on June 04, 2010, 04:56:30 PM
post mount solenoids and flush mount solenoid are a little different be leave it or not anyway..
you are useing a a mini starter?
if yes read my reply to the next quote.. ;)
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;323641
read THIS (http://"http://www.coolcats.net/tech/advanced/starter.html") before anymore verbal dribble takes place...
that is the correct way it should be wired but if the solenoid on the mini starter gets over heated a jammed starter is the least of your worries.. mine did and not only did it short ie the solenoid on the mini starter.. it was back feeding voltage to the factory solenoid and was frying the wires big time so i just wired it like the old starter and used the factory solenoid to crank the mini starter and has worked to this day 7 years later since i put the new motor in..
you just have to connect the small wire on the solenoid of the mini starter to the side that you would connect to the main wire that would go to the factory starter..
and would be wired the old way.. but i would suggest useing a late model solenoid from like a 87 and up cougar or mustang.. ie "flush mount" it has a better diode in it..
Nick
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Beau on June 05, 2010, 02:01:12 AM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;324235
92 and up 302's and 351's have these starters. I have heard that you want to get the starter off of an automatic with a 351 as the manual transmission units are different but I have not confirmed this.
My '92 F-150 does NOT have a mini starter. Does have the Mazda stick though...check 94 through 96 trucks with V8's, regardless of transmission. ;)
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 05, 2010, 02:37:03 AM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;324235
92 and up 302's and 351's have these starters. I have heard that you want to get the starter off of an automatic with a 351 as the manual transmission units are different but I have not confirmed this. The 3.8L cars also have this starter as well. I got mine off of a 99 V-6 mustang. The Explorer's are a great source for these starters.
Darren
I found no Explorers with a V8 engine. All the Explorers I found have a 4.0 liter V6 which mounts the starter on the driver's side and the nose isopposite.
I only searched one yard that day and had intended to go to another later. However , I decided to get a newly remanufactured one from work which has a lifetime warranty. Much less hassel for me and worth the extra $.
I was at first skeptical with the nose alignment between the old big starters and mini-starters, especially after looking at them side by side with my own eyes. The mini-starter looks like the nose cone sits lower, but it still must engage the flywheel properly. With all the confirmed fitment info, cetainly it is a direct swap-out. Now I cannot wait to get it done.
In just a few days I did a lot of research on Ford starters. The old style starters tend to draw a lot of current, enough to make the solenoid stay stuck together. When I sell an old style starter they have specific instruction to replace the solenoid at the same time and NOT use the old one.
Hopefully the new high torque mini starter will eliminate the run-on after starting. Plus it will have a newer different sound to it when it starts.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 05, 2010, 02:46:29 AM
Quote from: Blown306Cougar;324251
what year is you car?
post mount solenoids and flush mount solenoid are a little different be leave it or not anyway..
you are useing a a mini starter?
if yes read my reply to the next quote.. ;)
Nick
I flip-flopped around with solenoid styles. When I got the car it had the flush mount. Then it gave me the sticking problems. I replaced it with the same. Then the new one stuck. So I replaced it with the older style one mounted on a bracket. Where my solenoid mounts it looks vulnerable to water running on it from where the hood opening allows water to run inside the fender well housing and I was afraid it would get damaged. So I tried a stand-off bracket older type solenoid. It failed too.
When I did a lookup of the solenoid for 1983 models it uses the stand-off bracket type. I went ahead and replaced it back to a later model flush mount type.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 05, 2010, 06:37:09 AM
Quote from: Watchdevil;324280
In just a few days I did a lot of research on Ford starters. The old style starters tend to draw a lot of current, enough to make the solenoid stay stuck together. When I sell an old style starter they have specific instruction to replace the solenoid at the same time and NOT use the old one.
Yes the old type starters do draw more current than the gear reduction type, but apparently they've cheapened the contacts in newer solenoids, I've only seen one or two stuck in almost 45 years of working on Fords... My '69 428 Fairlane still has it's original solenoid(C7xxx pt no) and it's on it's third starter... That said, a low capacity battery which cranks the starter slowly can burn up the cables and solenoid...
BTW I have and old type starter on the 5.0 in the TC, never had any problem, other than a field winding bolt falling out of it(you know the phillips head screws that's on the housing)...
Now a plug for the newer starters...
Probably a dozen years a go, my mom called and said the door would not unlock on her '93 Grand Marquis(she was using the remote)... Sure enough when I tried it, the door motor just grunted a little but did not unlock... When I got in the car and started it, it cranked slowly but fired up without any problem, at that point the power door locks worked fine... Sooo the battery was so weak it wouldn't even operate a door motor but still could operate the starter, would have never happened with a old type starter... Those starers must be good, I just sold that '93 GM, still has it's original starter...
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 05, 2010, 11:46:41 AM
OReilly's has the Motocraft relays for about $25 and it should look like this:
They also carry Borg-Warner which is what I run on my cars and have had zero problems. If memory serves me right the BW's have about a 1/4" longer studs which helped with all the wiring on my cars due to the stereo, MSD, mini starter, etc.
I checked OReilly's website and it will not pull up the part number on my BW relay which is S5048. They show an S5049 but it has the two smaller posts where mine only has the one.
They also carry Borg-Warner which is what I run on my cars and have had zero problems. If memory serves me right the BW's have about a 1/4" longer studs which helped with all the wiring on my cars due to the stereo, MSD, mini starter, etc.
I checked OReilly's website and it will not pull up the part number on my BW relay which is S5048. They show an S5049 but it has the two smaller posts where mine only has the one.
I have the newly reman mini-starter I will try to put on later in the new week. I hope it will not be a bitch to install on these cars. IIRC, it was a bitch on my 1985 to do one and I paid to have that done. But then again, I may also be confused about the time I had to replace my oil pan because the motor mounts went bad and caused the engine to drop on top of the front sway bar and wore a hole in the oil pan causing me to loose oil. I remember the motor mounts were removed and the engine jacked up. But now I cannot remember if I replaced the starter then.
I had a load of work done to that 85 Tbird to keep it on the road because it was my only driver. I was broke and could not buy anything newer at the time. It ended up getting new tie rods, wheel bearings, water pump, shocks, wheel cyls... I forgot what else. I have to invest in most of the same things plus more for this 84 to get it in decent condition.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 06, 2010, 02:04:02 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;324285
Yes the old type starters do draw more current than the gear reduction type, but apparently they've cheapened the contacts in newer solenoids, I've only seen one or two stuck in almost 45 years of working on Fords... My '69 428 Fairlane still has it's original solenoid(C7xxx pt no) and it's on it's third starter... That said, a low capacity battery which cranks the starter slowly can burn up the cables and solenoid...
Ah yeah I have that dreadful smaller Ford battery group 58... I bought it when I first got the car because that was the first thing I knew it would need. I have had to recharge it three times already and I have had it since early 09.
Anyway, installed another new solenoid last night and yup it did the same thing... So the old starter is drawing too much current and overheating the circuit. Which reminds me I need to replace the solenoid to starter cable while I am at this.
I plan to wire my new starter through the old style solenoid so there will be dual solinoid action. I really don't like the idea of a live wire hot all the time anyway.
I cannot
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 06, 2010, 02:09:08 AM
Quote from: jcassity;322430
yeah, we can read about the fire later.
a push button momentary on/off might be cool,,like vinnies. he put a lot of work into it.
I was digging around under the dash the other day while working with the wiper circuits (That's another story) and found a brown jumper wire attached to an unused connector with muiltiple wires connected that is obviously for the factory anti-theft system. Then I remembered my 1994 Mustang had the same jumper wire and it was effective as a cheap ignition immobilizer if I unplugged it, so our Foxes have these too... All the way up behind the left side of the dash at the firewall behind and up from the fuse box and parking brake pedal.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on June 06, 2010, 02:31:02 PM
Quote from: Watchdevil;324402
I have the BWD Select Premium I bought from work.
So....You didn't want to go get the $40 one from Ford why?
But at this point, if it does it immediately after installing the solenoid, it probably is the starter. And it will be a bitch to replace. I forgot to install mine before I put the motor in. That sucked. I believe your life will be easier if you remove the Pass. Side front wheel.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 06, 2010, 03:15:18 PM
Why would you pay $40 at Ford when you can get the same starter relay at OReilly's for $25? Is the one at Ford different? Not being sarcastic in any way as I would think the one at OReilly's is the same.
Changing the starter is all what you make of it. With a stock K-member, long tubes, and the stock style starter I would agree its not as quick as a car with a tubular K-member, shorties, an X-pipe, and the stock style starter. No matter what it is just plan it out and remember to disconnect the negitive side on the battery before starting :D
Darren
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: bigdaddygb on June 06, 2010, 04:19:18 PM
i have read most of the tips on here and most of them are right on the money but one I haven't seen that happened to me was: you know the little ignition release button under the colomn.. if you hold it in while you are trying to start the car the key will stick and keep the starter running. Just a FYI.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: hypostang on June 06, 2010, 04:54:15 PM
I have always used a really long extension for the top bolt on the starter and gone in from in front of the K member :D
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on June 06, 2010, 04:57:58 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;324458
Why would you pay $40 at Ford when you can get the same starter relay at OReilly's for $25? Is the one at Ford different? Not being sarcastic in any way as I would think the one at OReilly's is the same.
Darren
Darren, I was referring to the fact that he bought the BWD Select solenoid, not the Motorcraft.
The part store brands are usually not the same quality as the Motorcraft ones. I went to Ford(Because that's where I knew I could find one. I was unaware that O'Reilly's sold Motorcraft), bought a new OE solenoid for less than I spent on two shiznit ones, and no issues.
I hope that makes sense, I didn't notice that you were the one who posted about the solenoids available a O'Reilly's.
Just my personal experience. I understand that you can get bad parts occasionally, but the severity of the failure,(x2) in this case, warranted spending a bit more on a product that I can count on. When you are 200 miles from home and something goes wrong, your perspective is a bit different.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 06, 2010, 07:11:00 PM
jrad235, No worries on my side. I was just wondering if the one OReilly's was selling was different than the one at Ford. I am a BIG believer in Ford parts especially when it comes to the heater cores. Anyhow, it sounds like they are the same so it may save some folks a few dollars.
bigdaddygb, I just tried that on my Coupe and it cranked just fine. Maybe something is wrong with your key cylinder? I cannot try it on the Bird as I disconnected that and tossed it in the trash years ago. I have an 85 TC steering column in the 83 due to the tilt mechanism failing and the TC column did not have the shift selector in the column as well which was a bonus when I converted the car to a standard tranmission.
Darren
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 06, 2010, 10:29:27 PM
Quote from: jrad235;324454
So....You didn't want to go get the $40 one from Ford why?
But at this point, if it does it immediately after installing the solenoid, it probably is the starter. And it will be a bitch to replace. I forgot to install mine before I put the motor in. That sucked. I believe your life will be easier if you remove the Pass. Side front wheel.
Oh I had already bought one months ago and I installed it and recently replaced that one. I just exchanged it under warranty. I will see how it does with the new starter and if I still have issues, I will try a Motorcraft. I sell the BWD's all the time at work and I never see these coming back as defective.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: hypostang on June 06, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
Quote from: Watchdevil;324535
I sell the BWD's all the time at work and I never see these coming back as defective.
I sold BWD parts for 15 years and cannot recall any "bad " solenoids :D
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 06, 2010, 10:35:35 PM
Quote from: hypostang;324466
I have always used a really long extension for the top bolt on the starter and gone in from in front of the K member :D
Now this will be helpful... I hope it does not turn out too difficult... The process of tending to the mechanical restoration is now beginning. Today I discovered the ground strap bolted to the firewall free spinning and I had to tighten it. However I already installed a new negative battery cable to replace the one that was bolted to the lower front of the engine. When I did that I discovered that the original cable had an attachment crimped in that grounded it to the frame rail before it went to the battery.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jrad235 on June 06, 2010, 11:08:45 PM
Quote from: Watchdevil;324535
Oh I had already bought one months ago and I installed it and recently replaced that one. I just exchanged it under warranty. I will see how it does with the new starter and if I still have issues, I will try a Motorcraft. I sell the BWD's all the time at work and I never see these coming back as defective.
I would be shocked if you had an issue after installing the new-style starter, they draw WAY less power.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 07, 2010, 12:22:54 AM
Quote from: jrad235;324559
I would be shocked if you had an issue after installing the new-style starter, they draw WAY less power.
I have had my sights on doing a high torque starter from the get go simply because it has a "newer tech" sound have when starting so it sounds less like an old clunker... The cherry on top is the advantages the new starter will functionally have.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Beau on June 07, 2010, 03:36:58 AM
Quote from: Watchdevil;324576
simply because it has a "newer tech" sound
Quote from: Watchdevil;324576
The cherry on top is the advantages the new starter will functionally have.
Because sounding like a chevy is more important than reliability, battery draw, and easier starting? :evilgrin:;):rollin:
I pulled the injector relays out of my dad's super duty a few days ago to diagnose an unrelated issue, while cranking in a no-start test, it sounded exactly like the '80s Chebby trucks...
Personally, I'd put little thought, if any, to what the things sounds like, so long as it works better than the stock, heavier piece.
Here's food for thought: My first vehicle was a 1974 Jeep J10 truck. Was a . Ford starter, GM-style alternator, Ford-like dizzy/rotor/points, and carb. Had a Chevy TH400 trans, with an AMC bolt pattern.
After about the third replacement starter I did away with the fender mounted starter relay bullshiznit, and swapped in a GM style starter. Never had to bother with it again. Oh yeah, went through a few starter relays (solenoids) as well.
Best thing was the Holley 650 and the bigger cam that I put in when I rebuilt the engine in 1995 for a school project.
Thankfully we have 3g and 4 g alts now, so no more adapting GM alts to our stuff, but back in the day, their starters were better, stock against stock, than Fords. My .02....
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Haystack on June 07, 2010, 06:57:11 AM
I have not seen a Chevy starter that looked like it would bolt into our cars. One of the things that I need to do to my car is the starter. Sometimes it hangs and hits the flywheIel. I would much rather replace the starter then the flywheel.
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 07, 2010, 09:29:19 AM
If you really want to solve the issues with the stock starting/charging system on these cars start at the battery and pull off every cable from the battery to the starter solenoid down to the starter and toss them in the trash can. Do the same with all of the grounding cables as well. Take the charging wire from the alternator to the starting solenoid with the F'n inline diodes and toss it as well.
Go down to your local welding supply store and purchase some 4 Ga welding lead, and the various 4 Ga lugs to attach to the alternator, starter, solenoid, and battery. Build your own 12V+ cables from the alternator to the starter solenoid, start solenoid to the battery, and one from the starter solenoid to the starter. Use red heat shrink on all the lugs on these leads. I typically double up the heat shrink on each connection to ensure is it sealed up. The second one is longer than the first to create two seals. Typically the cable run from the starter solenoid to the alternator calculates out to handling about a 140 amp load. Simply install a wafer fuse holder with a 125A wafer fuse and the line is protected like the diodes did on the anemic 12 Ga wire. You can find all kinds of charts and calculators online that will calculate the load a cable can handle as this depends on gauge and length. Build the 12V- cables to go from the battery to the strut tower, from the strut tower to the K-member and from the K-member to the engine block. Use black heat shrink doubled up on the lug connections on these cables.
If your battery is trunk mounted use at least 2 Ga wires if not 0 Ga wire with a high compression motor. If you do not like the idea of using the red heat shrink for the 12V+ lines you can go to a local car stereo store and pay $3/ft to get red 4 Ga cable versus the $1/ft for the 4 Ga black welding cable. Its even more of a cost differential for the larger gauge cables.
One thing you should have access to is a mechanical crimper for the lug ends to the cable. I got mine at Waytek:
I have wired three of my cars this way and several of my friends and the results have been simply stellar. It is a bit of work and it does cost some $$$ but the results are definitely worth it in my opinion. Again, this is just what I do as the stock gear is junk in my opinion. I worked as a certified car stereo installer for years in school and the factory wiring on most cars is sized to support the factory loads. When you jump from one of the old alternators to one of the newer 3G or 4G alternators the factory cables on these cars will not get the full amperage the newer alternator to the starter solenoid.
Anyhow, enough of my rambling. This was just meant to get you thinking as to what the stock wiring was sized to do and what we typically require it to do with hotter ignitions, stereos, bigger fuel pumps, higher compression motors which tax the starters, etc.
Darren
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: jkirchman on June 07, 2010, 12:27:20 PM
That actually sounds like a stellar idea, Darren. I have a question, though.
Quote from: Aerocoupe
Build your own 12V+ cables from the alternator to the starter solenoid, start solenoid to the battery, and one from the starter solenoid to the alternator.
You said 12V+ from the alternator to the starter solenoid and from the solenoid to the alternator. Is that the same cable or are there two different ones between those components?
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 07, 2010, 09:47:30 PM
Fixed. I meant starter solenoid to the starter. Thanks for the catch.
Darren
Title: Starter Problem Solved!
Post by: Watchdevil on June 09, 2010, 05:53:24 AM
Well it's fixed! Today I put in the new high torque starter. No more problems. Works perfectly. And it was very simple to install.