This is on my 86 Cougar with a 2.3T engine.
I'm not exactly sure what is going on. I turned the marker lights on to see if any bulbs were burned out in the cluster I installed. A few of them were, so I pulled the cluster and replaced them. Now the fuel pump primes when I turn the headlight switch on. The fuel pump also primes with key turned to run. The marker lights don't come on either, except while the starter is engaged. Everything was working fine yesterday. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Ed
how long was the car sitting? you in wichita now? do a visual on the wiring and see if anything looks chewed or bare could of had a mouse...
The car has been sitting for a few years. I just shipped it out to me in Las Vegas this week and am trying to get it finished up. I am working on checking the wiring out now. I know that there has been mice in the car but I haven't seen any damage from them yet.
Try disconnecting your new cluster and see if it still happens. I bet there is something different in the pinout feeding back through the new cluster light circuit.
I am not familiar with what you swapped in, but if you still have the old cluster look at the backs side-by-side and compare the circuitry. I bet they are different.
The car was originally a 5.0 but I removed the drivetrain and all wiring. The cluster is the stock turbo cluster, as is all the wiring. The fuel pump still primes when the lights are turned on even with the cluster removed. Like I said, everything was working fine with the turbo cluster, and then it just started doing weird things.
Thanks for responses, keep em coming!
Did some more investigating. I found that the plugging the cluster caused the fuel pump to prime (with the lights on) and unplugging it made it stop. I used some test leads I made and tried applying 12v to the different wires in the cluster plug. Pins #1 and #16 made the the fuel pump prime. Now according to the pinouts on Coolcats, pin 1 is for "Brake, turbo, tach & speedo 12V+" and pin 16 is for "Tach in." Any idea why these wires would cause these weird issues? Thanks!
You could pull those wires out of the cluster connector one at a time and see which one is the culprit...
Well, I'm pretty sure the issue isnt in the cluster because it still primes the pump even with the cluster out of the car. I think I may have narrowed it down to the illumination circuit. I pulled the fuse from spot #13 in the fuse panel and it stopped priming the pump when the lights are on. Does anybody know if the light circuit and the fuel pump circuit share any common connections?
I am guessing that by priming the pump, you mean it turns on for a couple of seconds and then turns off.
If so, it means that somehow you are powering up the EEC when you turn on the lights.
You must be picking the EEC power relay.
Put your meter on the Batt side of the ignition coil. This is a W/LB wire if you have a 86 2.3 harness. This was a R/LG wire on the 5.0.
This wire should be hot with the ignition in start or run and is the same circuit that picks the EEC power relay.
See if you get voltage there when you turn the lights on.
Thanks for the reply, I could use all the help I can get on this. Yeah, I tracked down the white with blue wire earlier and it lead me to a junction block with a few other wires. They all had no power with the ignition off and had power with the lights on. Not sure if it related, but I have a bundle of grounds in the center dash area that arennt ground, they are actually hot.
The harness is an 86 2.3 harness.
The W/LB wire being hot with the light switch is causing the pump to prime. This circuit should not be connected to the light switch.
Try pulling fuse 18 and see if you still have the problem.
I pulled fuse 13 earlier and that did stop it from happening. I have been testing wires all day.
The fuse 18 circuit (hot in start or run) is R/Y wire and goes many places.
The headlight circuit from the main headlight switch is also a R/Y wire.
I see a potential confusion factor here.
Fuse 13 (LB/R) is fed from the dimmer control part of the headlight switch and goes to pin 13 of the big(18 pin ) connector on the IP cluster and to pin 12 of the small IP cluster connector.
Fuse 18 (R/Y) goes to pin 1 of the big connector and pin 2 of the little connector.
Pin 1 is the "Hot in Start or Run" circuit and will pick the EEC power relay which will prime the pump.
Pin 16 goes to the Tach side of the coil. Hot in Start or Run is on the other side of the coil. You must have picked the EEC power relay by going through the coil.
Applying 12v to the connnector pins is risky. some of them go to ground through various sensors and switches. Pin 16 also goes to the TFI. Time will tell if you blew out the TFI or not.
Somewhere the fuse 13 circuit is tied together with the Hot in Start or Run circuit. Pulling fuse 18 (with 13 back in) can rule in or out a big part of the Hot in S or R circuit.
Yes the W/LB wire goes to a 5 wire splice. BR/PK to ignition swt start, R/LG to ignition swt run, R/LG to voltage regulator S terminal and R/LG to the input side of fuse 18.
This can be normal. If the ungrounded component has voltage applied to it, you will measure that voltage between the disconnected ground wire and ground.
Are marker lights also called parking lights?
I'm confused here. Can both of these statements be correct?
Yeah, parking lights :-)
It has gone through several phases. For a while the first was true, then after some moving wires around the second was true. Now the fuel pump is working fine, but still no dash lights. Now were both confused.
I just went out to the car and now it has no fuel pump or starter even with the key!
What do you mean by "moving wires around"?
I just mean moving the main harness around to try to trace wires
Is there a reason you have not grounded those disconnected ground wires?
You are going to have to pick just one symptom at a time and trouble shoot it. I can post EVTM diagrams that apply to the area you are trouble shooting.
Does the car have ATC or AutoLamp features? Type of transmission?
OK where do you want to start?
I just grounded the unconnected grounds. As to why they went connected, I suppose i figured they werent needed. This car is completely stripped and I figured they were for some deleted options as the car was fine without it for some time. It is possible they were laying on the center console metal frame making it seem like they it was fine without them.
I have the EVTM for the car, i just need somebody who speaks EVTM more fluently than I to translate. I know enough to get by, but for trouble shooting something like this I am lost. The car does not have ATC or auto lamps. It is a C3 auto.
Ok, we are back to the pump running for a few seconds when the cluster is connected and the lights turned on. We will start there.
Thanks a bunch for your help BTW.
Is this with the cluster connected?
Pull fuse 18.
With the cluster disconnected the lights do not turn on the fuel pump. With the cluster connected the lights do turn on the fuel pump. With the cluster connected and fuse 18 pulled the fuel pump does not come on with the lights.
Disconnect the cluster and measure the resistance between pin 1 and pin 13 on the cluster.
On the connector side, not the cluster right?
On the connector I am reading .269 on the 2k setting.
sorry, alright...
On the cluster itself pins 1 and 13 show no reading, just a 1
I cleaned up the contacts a bit more and i did get a reading, a .611
This is with one meter probe on pin 1 and the other on pin 13, with the meter set to OHMs.
Is this correct?
If it is reading 1 ohm, that's not good. What does the meter read when it's not hooked to anything?
I am working on page 98 of the EVTM. Are both of the connectors show there on the cluster?
I got a reading of .611 after cleaning up the contacts a little. The cluster only has spot for a connector.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Loaded87IROC/006-7.jpg)
Looks like you have a connection between those two circuits. That's not good.
On page 98 in the lower left side they show "Instrument Panel Illumination" with two bulbs. You can see pin 13, labled on the top side of the box, is the power source for the bulbs.
On page 117 you have pin 1 on the cluster going to the brake indicator bulb.
You are going to have trace the land patterns for these two circuits and see if you can find someplace where they have been bridged together.
Supper time here on the East Coast. I'll check back with you in an hour or so.
So, I need to physically inspect all the wires coming from #18 on the fuse panel? Like the diagram on page 27?
Awesome, thanks again. I owe you a beer/dinner ;)
Ok here is what I did while you were away. First I followed the red wire with yellow stripe out of the fuse box. It went a few different places but nothing looked to be in bad shape. Then I hooked up my test light to ground (frame that the steering column bolts to.) I stuck the dangerous end into the fuse panel in spot #18. When I did this the light lit up very dim and the headlight chime sounded (very faint.) I put the fuse back in and connected the cluster. I tested the lights and the fuel pump turned on. I then unplugged the chime box and tried it again and no fuel pump. I tried this several times and got the same results.
The two circuits that are getting tied together do both go to the Warning Chime Module.
Not where I was trying to steer you to. I was trying to get you check for the circuits being tied together on the cluster itself.
I can't see how with the problem being in the chime box that disconnecting the cluster made it go away.
But you can't argue with success.
What's next?
I assume the car doesn't need the chime box for anything? If so, I would just as soon leave it out.
Hmm, I guess next would be cluster illumination. Turning the lights on does turn on the dash lights now, but the cluster lights do not light up with the exception of the right turn signal indicator lights up solid.
dont do this again,, even on a toaser.. its wrong and will cause you more harm than good no matter what your working on. I meant to mention this the other day but had to take off, been looking at the evtm and following along. I like a good puzzel to work.
the only thing i can think if you both dont mind my saying is I would have started at the starter solenoid in the following manner.
-disconnect all output wiring on the solenoid except the small slip on wire boot, lay the starter wire to the side
-turn on headlamps
-leave cluster connected
-touch each wire to the starter relay post and observe when headlamps came on
-if headlamps came on and no fuel pump, you can isolate circuits easier
-if headlamps came on and fuel pump also rans, you have a common source circuit.
the reason i say this is because we do have several unfused circuits in these cars. using the evtm is great but if someone else tapped into a hot wire or a ground in an incorrect spot, its gonna take exactly what your doing, one step at a time.
You know, I observed some very strange behavior once on my 87 TC. I had just removed all the carpeting, and after I was finished, I attempted to drive the car. When I turned the car on, the headlights came on, I think the door chime sounded, and I believe the right turn signal indicator on the gauge cluster was permanently lit. I believe there were other wacky things, I just can't remember them now. Anyhow, I traced it back to a ground, located at the bottom back passenger side corner of the center portion of the dash (radio, AC), that I forgot to reconnect.
Thanks for that step by step Scott. I may still end up following it I can't get all of my issues resolved. Removing the warning chime did seem to take care of the fuel pump running when lights were on issue. I really have no need of the chime so I would like to just leave it out. Hopefully with everyone's puzzle solving help I can get this stuff sorted out.
That ground hasn't been connected since I did the engine/wiring swap but I suspect it may have been laying against the frame of the dash allowing it to ground. I went ahead and bolted it to the firewall. I am still getting an always on right turn signal and no other cluster lights.
Thanks again to everyone who has responded.
Ok, a new piece of information. I tried the extra chime box that I had and the outer lights came on without the fuel pump. I switched back and forth several times and every time the first chime caused the fuel pump to turn on with the lights and the second chime box did not.
I also noticed that I forgot to put the high beam indicator bulb back in at some point during this fiasco. So I put it back in, and now both turn signals indicators as well as the high beam indicator are on when the lights are turned on. I also noticed something else. When the high beam indicator bulb was out of the cluster, the fuel pump primed with turning the key to run as normal. When I put it back in I noticed the fuel pump turned on when turning the key to run as normal and it turned on again when I shut the key off. I tried it several times both with the bulb in and out and the results were the same.
I have run down all the wires on the cluster connector. This is from the 86 EVTM. Connector is shown on page 98. Page referances below are EVTM pages.
[LIST=1]
- R/Y Hot in Start or Run---Fuse 18--Page 117
- W/PK Overboost Warning Lamp--Page 124 & 36-(Ground side of lamp)
- P/W Brake Indicator Lamp--Page 117 (Ground side of lamp)
- Y/W Fuel Gauge Sender--Page 117
- R/O Ammeter--Page 22--Hot at all times
- Y/LG Ammeter--Page 22--Hot at all times
- BK/LG IVR Voltage through an 8.5 ohm R--Hot in run--Page 117
- W/R Oil pressure sensor--Page 117
- R/W Temp gauge sender--Page 117
- DG/W 5 volts from IVR to low fuel warning module (optional indicators)--Page 117
- DG/LG Fasten seat belts lamp--Page 131
- BK Ground
- LB/R Panel Illumination--Fuse 13--HL Swt--Fuse 4--Page 98
- W/LB RH Turn Indicator--Page 88
- LG/W LH Turn Indicator--Page 88
- DG/Y Tach Input--Page 36
- LG/BK Hi Beam Indicator Page 71
- DG/W Speed Sensor--Page 175
Problem solved.
The cluster lights were in fact coming on, only very dim. I checked voltage at the cluster illumination wire and it was showing 12ish volts. The other probe i had touching ground at the frame of the car. I then checked the cluster illumination wire with the ground probe in the cluster ground wire and it was showing like 5 volts. I unplugged the cluster connector and rechecked and was reading 0 volts across them. I rechecked all the ends of the ground that comes from the cluster ground. They went various places and one of those places was a connector that was unplugged. I plugged the connector in to its matching connector from the ground that I bolted to the firewall that is usually bolted to the dash. Everything is back to working fine again.
Now I have no idea how everything was working fine before. I imagine that the unhooked ground was laying against the metal frame of the dash. but as far as the unhooked connector, I haven't a clue because it wasn't hooked up since i did the swap. I also have no idea how the cluster was lighting up very dimly. I guess it was getting ground from somewhere else in the cluster?
So anyways, everything is working fine now. You guys were right, I did in fact blow the tfi out. I will accept a told you so on that. I replaced it and the car starts up fine and all lights work great.
Thank you to everybody who commented and spent their precious time helping me figure this out, especially softtouch.
YAHTZEE! I knew I experienced that same queer scenario you were describing! Glad it you found it!