Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: sarjxxx on April 21, 2010, 01:10:22 AM

Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on April 21, 2010, 01:10:22 AM
[SIZE="4"][COLOR="red"]
[EDIT]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I figured it out. Go to post 26 for the answer.

This posting is unique to 1988 model Cougars or Thunderbirds with a 3.8L. No other cars have this accessory setup.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[EDIT][/COLOR][/SIZE]


Ok, I was told to open a new thread, so here it is:D

I have done the proper searching, and can find nothing about what I need. I've seen plenty on the 5.0 and the older 3.8, but the 88 had an entirely different belt/acc setup than either of those two motors.

I already had enough common sense to get a string and run it in my intended belt path, and then measure the length. Went to autozone, bought a 56" belt, slapped it on, and all seemed well. As I was driving home, temp gauge starts rising. Got to thinking about it, opened up the hood, and looked carefully. Realized, I was running my water pump BACKWARDS.

My question to you fine people, is, does anyone know how to route a belt w/out a smog pump, and still get the water pump to turn the right direction on the 88 3.8.

My best, and only guess, is to try to put some kind of spacers on the bolts holding down the ac compressor, which will be staying on, so that it is in line with the front set of pulleys, then ditch the second belt. From here I may be able to run the belt around the water pump, as intended, and then back up towards the alt., but I dont know if the runaround will clear the pulley.

Short of that, my only other guess is a different tensioner on the DS that would pull in the UP direction:hick:.

Pics are included of course:


[SIZE="1"][SIZE="1"](oh, and btw, NO, I'm not putting in a 5.0! It is not the answer!)[/SIZE][/SIZE]:D
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on April 22, 2010, 01:29:36 AM
Ok, since I am stumped, and no one else seems to know, here is what I ended up doing.

I put the smog pump back on, but I made it a little different. Instead of having the pump pull air, and feed it into the pressure ridden exhaust pipe, I did exactly the opposite.:flip:

As most of us know how a turbo works, by making use of the pressure in the exhaust sytem, this is what my smog pump now does. I took the hose that originally flowed into the exhaust from the outlet of the pump, and rerouted it to the intake of the pump, so that the exhaust gasses at high speeds should actually take the load off of the turbine inside, if not actually helping it. There's no way that thing is hindering in any possible way now.:rollin:Hell, when I get around to hard piping my intake, I might actually decide to feed the outlet of the pump directly into it for a ghetto blower effect.:rollin:(more)

It does make one hell of a racket, but it actually sounds pretty  cool. I'm going to drive it tomorrow and see how it feels and sounds on the road with the hood down. If its too loud, I'm just gonna put a short hose between the inlet and outlet so they feed each other. Seems the only other way to go for minimal restriction.

Other than this, I see no possible way to run the belt w/out the pump, short of either getting an electric water pump and getting the tensioner to move further to the DS, or by shimming the ac compressor out about 7/8" and cutting off part of a couple brackets (b/c its on a separate belt).

Here is a pic. of engine comp., and a crude drawing of what I did.:hick:
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 22, 2010, 10:14:44 AM
Can you make an idler pulley work where the smog pump used to be?

Darren
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: 88CougarGT on April 22, 2010, 11:50:27 AM
I'm not tying to say don't do it. Just have a couple of thinking points.
1. A smog pump doesn't take all that much HP to turn.
2. If you still have Cats I've read that running w/o the pump can cause them to fail.

Not sure what "Fail" means in this case.  I will assume that they will just stop being effective. I have seen cats melt, but thats typically from dumping lots of raw gas into them.  If that was the case, you can always knock them out with rod.  I assume you don't have a sniffer test for inspection.

As far as your your turbo, I predict imminent Smog pump failure.  And, "failure" here means melty, seizy, screechy, badneess.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: 88CougarGT on April 22, 2010, 11:59:54 AM
Why not skip the middleman?  :flame:
X
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 22, 2010, 12:39:03 PM
Converter 101:

http://www.car-sound.com/04basics/04converter.asp

and for the Wiki lovers out there:

http://wikicars.org/en/Catalytic_converter

The addition of extra oxygen by the air pump makes the converters more efficient.  The internals of the converter melt due to high temperatures in the converter usually caused by very rich conditions in the exhaust stream.

Darren
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on April 22, 2010, 01:44:25 PM
Quote from: 88CougarGT;319263
Why not skip the middleman?  :flame:
X


:rollin:
:rollin:
:rollin:

See, I DONT have cats, so I have no worries:D
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: rodsterh on April 22, 2010, 04:50:58 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;319268


Darren


Off topic...

Darren,

That sure is one distracting avatar.....:grinno:

I tend to loose track of everything you say.:D
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 22, 2010, 05:40:05 PM
Yeah, I miss going to the home games...end of off topic.

Darren
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: Beau on April 22, 2010, 07:11:48 PM
Here's what you should do:
unhook all the hoses-etc from the smog pump...leave the belt on it, though route it the proper way. A smog pump doesn't rob a noticeable amount of power unless the bearings are going out.
Just leave it on, but no hoses.
Yes, it'll make some noise, this is the air being pumped through it. Think of it as a tiny air compressor...

The turbo idea is nonsensical...it'll not move nearly enough air to make it worth even thinking about beyond this sentence.

Might also do a little searching...I'm sure there's Mustang 3.8 stuff that might apply to your instance here.

OR....one last option. Not sure if there's such a thing, but you could look for a CW rotation waterpump...
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on April 22, 2010, 07:30:44 PM
One good thing about living in florida: NO INSPECTIONS!!!!!!!! That, in turn = no cat. convs, which also = no smog pump

cw waterpump was my first idea, but then I realized:
"This is a 3.8L!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
If tom morana doesn't make it, it probably doesn't exist. Plus, if the wp spun CW, it would be pulling coolant out of the motor and forcing it to flow UP through the radiator. I'm no engineer, but I don't think they are designed to flow that direction. lol

Also, at first I was running it free w/ no hoses, but then that idea popped into my head. I am actually going to attach  both ends together w/ one hose, that way it feeds itself, so its quieter, and has the highest possible chance of not causing any robbed air flow.

I know its very nearly pointless to even worry about this thing, but, like I said above, "Its a 3.8L!!!!!!!" whatever can help, DO IT!!!! :D

Oh yeah, as for it melting itself, the air flow thats coming out of it is hardly even warm. I checked that long before I decided to do something this  :hick:ed

and rodsterh is right. thats probably the best avatar on the site:D
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: blackcougar71 on May 06, 2010, 03:33:11 PM
just go to ebay and get a smog pump eliminator pulley its a direct bolt in. so you can keep your stock belt size. here is the eliminator pulley im using with my underdrive pulleys setup on my v6.(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii52/blackcougar84/PIC-0023.jpg)
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on May 09, 2010, 04:14:10 AM
oooooooooooooohhh!!!:brick:
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: blackcougar71 on May 11, 2010, 05:48:23 PM
here is a link to the type i used except for the brand.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Proform-Smog-Pump-Eliminator-Bracket-68110-/390191689271?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ad93cae37
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: jcassity on May 11, 2010, 11:57:49 PM
Quote from: sarjxxx;319327
If tom morana doesn't make it, it probably doesn't exist. Plus, if the wp spun CW, it would be pulling coolant out of the motor and forcing it to flow UP through the radiator. I'm no engineer, but I don't think they are designed to flow that direction. lol




so when your engine is cold and you start it,, the radiator hoses are cold.

when the engine heats up , which hose gets warm first?


:D
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on May 13, 2010, 05:26:45 PM
Quote from: jcassity;321544

when the engine heats up , which hose gets warm first?


:D

...because I make a habit out of holding onto my radiator hoses as they heat up?

:p


Quote from: blackcougar71;321496
here is a link to the type i used except for  the brand.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Proform-Smog-Pump-Eliminator-Bracket-68110-/390191689271?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ad93cae37

 Thx, I like that. One thing I noticed about my pump when I took it off, twice, is that I could not get one of the bolts out of it. It almost seemed like it was designed to stay in it. I'm pretty sure the 88 is different type of pump than the 87< so I don't know if you had the same problem. If I cant get it out, then I cant use the replacement kit, course I can probably just find a replacement bolt at AZ though...



btw, for those of you who were freeeeaking out about me running my hoses backwards, here it is currently.
Until I get aforementioned kit anyway.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: CBASS on May 18, 2010, 01:34:38 PM
I took the one off my 86 years ago because the bearings were going out.  I can't remember how I routed the belt, but I do remember getting a smaller one.  I used a large metal plug and hose clamp to close the exahust tube, and another metal plug that went into the entake side.  On the 86, it injected air (I assume) into the back part of the intake.  I would just get the idler pulley like blackcougar71 suggested.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: 30bird on May 20, 2010, 10:02:44 PM
You don`t want exhaust going into the air pump. That`s what the check valves are for. Exhaust is going to burn up the pump and might leave you stranded. The post before mine is best. Just leave the hoses off.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on May 20, 2010, 10:24:23 PM
Quote from: sarjxxx;321741

btw, for those of you who were freeeeaking out about me running my hoses backwards, here it is currently.
Until I get aforementioned kit anyway.


I have to quote myself now? It feeds itself. Quieter, and very little resistance. Only a temporary fix.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: Pegleg88 on July 18, 2010, 09:32:19 AM
If that is a rotary vane pump, can't you remove the vanes from the impeller? That would be cheaper than buying the pump eliminator.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on July 18, 2010, 10:55:22 AM
Hmmm...don't know. That would require taking it apart, and that would be less than smart for me to do I believe.

The whole idea in getting it gone though, was more for just gettting that big ugly pump out of my engine than for the power gain, as the way I currently have it routed into itself is as good as anything else.

However, I think I might just be putting THIS (http://"http://www.procharger.com/superchargers.shtml") in there instead!!!
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: Sancho on July 26, 2010, 09:35:00 AM
Quote from: Pegleg88;328681
If that is a rotary vane pump, can't you remove the vanes from the impeller? That would be cheaper than buying the pump eliminator.


Years ago this is what I did:

1. remove access plate
2. Find large hammer and screwdriver
3. apply surgical force to impeller blades
4. reassemble your free smog eliminator

Worked perfectly fine.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: jcassity on July 26, 2010, 11:54:06 PM
Quote from: sarjxxx;321741
...because I make a habit out of holding onto my radiator hoses as they heat up?

:p
.


umm,, that was actually a legitimate questoin.  Your the one who said to hold on to them "as" they heat up.

I was simply pointing you to the direction of your answer so you knew which direction it flowed. 

you must've thought i was being sarcasitic, which i wasnt.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: Haystack on July 27, 2010, 12:59:48 AM
Your waterpump is spinning the wrong way.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on July 27, 2010, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: jcassity;329624
you must've thought i was being sarcasitic, which i wasnt.

 umm...yes I did. :sorry:
 
Quote from: Haystack;329628
Your waterpump is spinning the wrong way.
Quote from: sarjxxx;319094
Realized, I was running my water pump BACKWARDS.
...pretty sure that was the point of this thread:D...
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 18, 2011, 12:30:56 PM
I FIGURED IT OUT!!!

Here's a seriously oversimplified step by step for what you gotta do to get rid of your smog pump on an 88 3.8L:

1. First thing you need to do, before you even release tension on your stock belt, is to go over to the smog pump itself. Grab your self a 10mm socket and loosen up the bolts holding the pulley on the pump. Don't take them off yet, just loosen em up.

2. Take off the existing belt. Now take the pulley off the pump. Its as easy as it looks. Just take out the three bolts and pull the pulley right off. Now go ahead and take off the air hoses attached to it. If you're still using the stock air filter, you'll need to find something to plug up the hole in the airbox or your intake will suck air in through it instead of through the filter. You also need to plug up the pipe coming up from the exhaust downpipe that the airpump feeds. The easiest quickest way is to use a bolt about the same diameter as the rubber hose and stick it in there at some point and clamp it off with a hose clamp. This of course is just a temp fix until you can get the pipe removed and plugged from under the car where it meets the exhaust.

3. Go ahead and take off the pump. This consists of two 1/2" bolts, one top and one bottom. A good 10" extension comes in handy here too.

4. Now you have to get your tensioner pulley off. The bolt that holds it on is a super tight 15mm bolt, and it is a bitch to get loose. The 15mm socket will probably have to be hammered onto the bolt but trust me, DO NOT use any other size, or you WILL strip the head right off and you'll never get that bolt loose. You probably will need a breaker bar to get that bolt loose too, but it will come out.

5. Now that you have the tensioner arm off, you need to make it reverse its tension. All you gotta do is take a screwdriver and pry up the little cover plate that stops the tensioner arm from traveling too far. Pry up the tab far enough to get it to slide over the edge of the tension arm. Let it rotate all the way till all the the tension is gone and you've got a little slack.
Then work your way around the edges of the plate and try to get it to pop up off of the little square in the center that's holding it on.
Then take the plate and put it back on where the spring is untensioned. You'll probably have to rotate it just a little bit to get it to pop on. Then take a screwdriver and hammer and pop the plate back on around the edges of the square.

6. Now you need to drill a new hole in your bracket so that the tensioner will sit in the right place. Below is a pic of about where it should be. You need to put the tensioner back on the bracket and tighten it down just to where you can still rotate the whole thing but not so loose that it wiggles a lot. You need to rotate the arm back and forth so you can use the pin on the back to mark on your bracket where you need to drill the hole. Your hole should be 5/16" but I used a 3/8" and it worked fine. It needs to be pretty much exactly where I put it in my pic or you might not get it tight enough later, or you might not be able to get enough slack out of it to get the belt back on. Go ahead and drill the hole pretty deep but don go all the way through the bracket. Now go ahead and check to make sure the hole is deep enough and you can tighten the bolt all the way down.

7. Now you need to go out and get a 56" 6 rib serpentine belt. If its too small make sure they gave you a 56" belt. I've gotten two of these and the guys at the parts store gave me the wrong one the first time both times.

8. Now you can go a head and put the belt on and turn the car on and make sure everything's good and doesn't slip off or anything.

9. Enjoy your engine bay without that big ass ugly hunk of uselessness.

[edit]10. It is not neccessary, but highly reccomended that you also swap out the stock tensioner pulley for a ribbed pulley. You can get one from any 89-98 3.8 ford (Cougar, Tbird, Mustang...). Keep in mind that the bolt that holds it to your car is a normal thread, but the bolt that holds it to the donor car is reverse threaded. Make sure you keep the washer from the donor car, but you don't need the bolt. When you take off your pulley ditch the stock washer and put the donor washer and pulley on your bolt. Tighten it to finger tight and reinstall the belt. Turn on the car. Now the next part is a little tricky. What you want to do is tighten the bolt with a socket very slowly, until its very tight. The reason you cant do this right away is because of all those little blades on the new pulley. The old one of course was flat, and the tensioner arm was designed for that. But there is a little ring around the outside edge of where it bolts down that will hold your pulley against it and not allow it to turn if its tight already. So what you want to do is slowly tighten down the pulley while its running, so that it grinds out a little groove into those blades and then its free to go. Don't worry, its just a tiny little groove, it won't hurt anything. Then you're done.[/edit]

Here's the new hole you have to drill. Notice the slightly lighter arc around it where I marked it using the peg.

(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n567/sarjxxx/newhole.jpg)

Here's about what your new belt route will look like:

(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n567/sarjxxx/shortbeltbitch.jpg)

And here's about what it will look like in the car. Note that my AC compressor and the whole bracket have also been removed.

(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n567/sarjxxx/2011-01-18113159.jpg)

GL friends:D
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: BadTriumph on January 18, 2011, 01:05:06 PM
Looks good! I was going to say (but it was already said) to remove the vanes on the smog pump impeller. I did that on my Bronco and it worked great. This way saves you quite a few pounds and simplifies that look considerably. Now you need to put a manual rack in there and lose the power steering pump. Just a thought....
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 18, 2011, 01:06:49 PM
nah, thought about it but I like my P/S too much. its gonna be a street car not a strip car so I wanna keep it.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: BadTriumph on January 18, 2011, 01:13:18 PM
I hear ya. Keep in mind that a manual rack is nothing like a power rack without the pump. The only time it would be challenging to turn would be when parking. Even then it's not that hard. You've given me something to do when it warms up here.....
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 18, 2011, 01:50:48 PM
of course, now I am going to have to figure out what to do with all that extra room on the left side where I got rid of that bracket.....
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: BadTriumph on January 18, 2011, 03:07:56 PM
Plenty of room for a nice big turbo :D
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 18, 2011, 03:28:35 PM
well yeah cept geez its already getting two... and I'm still gonna have room....
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 19, 2011, 12:49:34 AM
Where's the A/C?
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 19, 2011, 06:32:34 AM
Gone. Evap core was leaking and for how much I'll be driving this car it just wasn't worth it to me to tear apart my heater box to get that thing out. I'll just drop the windows.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: hypostang on January 19, 2011, 10:29:44 PM
Good job ... BUT I think you should look into a ribbed pulley for the tensioner,
 I think with the smooth pulley you may get slipping problems with higher RPMs
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 19, 2011, 10:59:41 PM
As far as I can tell, just by revving it and looking/listening, there doesn't seem to be any problems. But, that is something I will consider. It would most likely consist of having to change the actual pulley (not the whole arm) out probably from a shebby or something cause I don't think ford ever made any ribbed tensioners.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 19, 2011, 11:01:55 PM
I *think* the tensioner on my MN-12 has a ribbed pulley. You may be able to swap one from a MN-12 onto your car.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: hypostang on January 19, 2011, 11:03:49 PM
You should be able to swap just the pulley without any trouble if you decide to .A good counter guy at a parts store should be able to tell ya what would fit
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 20, 2011, 04:53:17 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;350239
I *think* the tensioner on my MN-12 has a ribbed pulley. You may be able to swap one from a MN-12 onto your car.

Oh well heck lemme go look at mine......

YEAH IT DOES!!! Sweet! There's like 3 3.8 MN12's nearby... I'll grab one up this weekend:D It's kinda funny cause my PS pulley is one of the plastic ones from a MN12. I had to replace it cause I warped mine back when I was totally green and didn't know how to get it off and tried to get it off with a prybar:hick::giggle:

 Thx man I didn't even think to look:dunce:

Those bolts are reverse threaded aren't they?
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 21, 2011, 06:23:24 PM
Ok, got it on. Took a little figuring and fighting and fidgeting but it all worked out in the end. Here's a py night pic:

(ignore the ps pulley. WD40 plus centifugal force):hick:

(http://i54.tinypic.com/4vitrc.jpg)
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: BadTriumph on January 21, 2011, 06:39:21 PM
Looks good. Nice work!
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 21, 2011, 08:25:38 PM
Yeah thanks:D

I think the next step is to ditch my stock crank pulley for a single belt crank pulley from a mustang.

Oh yeah, and I figured out what I'm gonna do temporarily with all that room on my PS. Go ahead. Ask me.:poke:
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: hypostang on January 21, 2011, 08:55:15 PM
Ok I'm asking ... do tell
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 21, 2011, 09:00:46 PM
TC turbo.:evilgrin:

Boosted to 5 psi.
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 24, 2011, 10:04:26 PM
Here is a clean pic of the final (for now) setup. Ribbed pulley included.

(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n567/sarjxxx/2011-01-24171746.jpg)

Whats bugging me is that now my alt pulley is squealing at me big time. And its not the belt, its definately the bearings. I thought before it was cause my alt was shot, but with the new one its still doing it, and I think actually worse. The deflection angle off the top of the pulley really didn't change that much, but maybe thats the cause?
Title: Solved! How to delete your smog pump on an 88 V6 car
Post by: sarjxxx on January 26, 2011, 06:40:36 PM
Hmmm, you know, looking more into this like I should have done to begin with, it seems that I could have just taken an entire tensioner from an mn12 or 3.8 'stang and saved myself the hassle.:punchballs:

I don't know if it bolts up the same way but it definitely turns backwards. And it comes preloaded with the correct pulley.