Hey everybody i got a couple questions. Im replacing gaskets in my tbird in a couple weeks and need some input on my intake carb setup. Ok so the motor is a 88 roller cam bottom end and on top i have gt40p heads and a torker II intake and with a holley 4 barrel. Now last summer the car was really poochy. I was told that if i put a 4 hole carb spacer on it will help incredibly. I was told either the spacer or get a dual plane intake. What are your inputs on this. I was going to build the motor all out but with no job moneys tight and I need to get the bird running by spring.
Do want the complicated truth or an answer you probably want to hear?
Put the carb on it as is and drive it? I don't think a little 0.25" spacer will make much difference. Money would probably be better spent chasing vac leaks or getting a tune.
get rid of the torker, thats an upper RPM intake, get a regular proformer.. till you can get a bigger cam and gears in the rear...
with what you have you do not need more than about a 650cfm carb with vac 2ndaries
the Torker is good if you wanted to spray..
whats the complicated truth?
kinda figured best bet was a new intake. looking at some performer intakes..probally go that route.
Weiand Stealth.
Frankly, I could have a field day with the rest of this post, but I will only address this.
What makes a "torker" an "upper rpm intake"...
Have you ever ran a torker? Ever ran a torker with a proper camshaft? Have any idea on what what flows alone or bolted to a set of heads? Do you even know the ASCA and MSCA of that intake?
The easy answer is what is posted by Tbone above - get a Stealth, RPM or some other POS dual plane intake and build another whoa-fully underperforming small block ford.
The complicated answer is, well rather complicated, and requires you to throw all the BS myths in the "performance" world about dual planes, velocity, back pressure, blah blah blah.
That torquer is similar to an Xcellerator. Both very good intakes on a set of stock heads (yes, GT40 is a stock head).
Even with the stock cam, your engine will be more resposive and be faster with a single plane intake over a dual plane intake. And no, I dont give a rats arse what a dyno says... we dont race dynos.
If you want to do this the right way (and I mean the semi-right way without sticking a piss load of cash into those stock heads)...
get a good camshaft for your combo (anything labeled with a single letter or stage this or that IS NOT A GOOD CAMSHAFT) and get some gears.
If you want to leave the stock cam - which is pretty decent on a stock bottom end and GT40 heads, leave the intake - tune the carb and GET SOME GEARS.
If you are running an Auto trans, get a convertor and a shift kit or valve body upgrade.
The moral of my post is this: I know money is tight and we are all on a budget. Either pony up the money to do it the right way now, or leave it be and save up to do it right down the road and do not buy a dual plane anything!
If you want an OTS camshaft recommendation - PM me.
A good street engine needs torque at 2500 rpms, not at 4500+...
I 'm confused as to where he said he was building a race car
I totally agree with picking the right cam for the combination
And I firmly believe there is a place for dual plane intakes .
a single plane intake is by design an "upper rpm intake "
It uses velocity to make maximum power
and yes I have run a torker (when I was a young lad ) and it was all wrong for my set up and the car ran SOOOO much better when I switched to an Edelbrock F4B
Building. a race engine as opposed to a street engine is a totally different ball game . So its kind of a blanket statement to say your way is the "right " way . it may very well be for you particular needs/ usagebut not everyones.
it depends on what the car is going to be used for .
If a street engine is never going to see the better side of 4500 RPM's you would not be taking full advantage of the single plane design
Just my opinions
Show me anywhere where I said anything about building a race engine...
Who determined that all single plane intakes are high rpm intakes?
Velocity - should be a 4 letter word. 1 out of 100,000 internet jockeys have even the slightest understanding or comprehension of what that word means to an engine, but they all seem to throw it out there whenever it is convenient.
If you are going to use that word - tell me how it effects or affects the engine. We can even use the OPs engine as an example...
velocity =speed
higher RPM=higher speed
According to you the manufacturers in describing their recommended rpm ranges are lying to us, That does not make sense .
I'm not going to get into an argument with you over this, you have your opinion and I have mine .
Opinions are just that opinions . yours is no more right than mine
I am basing mine on MY personal experiences and what I have learned being a mechanic for the last 30 years , nothing more nothing less.
In order to build a car/ engine whoever is doing so needs to determine how they are going to use said combination .
According to what you said anyone who uses a dual plane intake is "wrong" . I disagree plain and simple.
The OP asked for advice ,
You gave yours, I gave mine.
This post could be an opportunity for many on this forum to learn more advanced concepts on how to put the right combination parts on for the street. What Nate is getting at is there are a great many "myths and rumors" about velocity, low end torque, dual plane/single plane intakes, camshafts, header/exhaust size, the list goes on and on.
There is a ton of this type of "old school" (single plane intakes are only for high rpm) information promoted by many websites and magazines (yes, Hot Rod, Car Craft, MMFF, 5.0, ect) which are not good sources of Tech Info. The magazines are great as platforms for selling parts for their advertisers.
Nate is a moderator for sbftech.com. The information is his relating is not opinion, but fact. I have a good bit of experience relating to what he is trying to convey and it flat out works if you do it "right".
If you would like to learn more, Nate may share more here or go to sbftech.com, get 10 posts in and plan on spending a good deal of time relearning what you thought you knew over the past 30 years (based on my 30+ years of experience in this hobby working on SBF's), some what's in there is a mind bender!
If you're not open to it, that's OK too. Plenty of people know what they know, but no one knows what they don't know.
IMO this site could use a bit more solid tech info on performance engine builds (this is indeed an opinion and others may differ).
I'm quite sure he knows what he is taking about, of that I have no doubt .
All I was trying to say what is "right" for him may not be "right" for everyone , given all factors such as vehicle usage, rpm range , budget , and overall goals .
Not everyone is interested in building an all out performance engine , and it is proven that mild upgrades will produce performance gains maybe not all out perfection as he is saying .
The original poster asked a question about how to make his car perform a little better.
I personally never said a single plane was "only" a high RPM intake
but I do know how they were designed /originally intended .
A basically stock 5.0 with mild gears non high stall torque converter will perform better on the street with a dual plane rather than a single plane lower at RPMS that TOO is a fact .
He was the one who said "we don't race dynos"
I inferred that to mean he was talking about a race engine .
I'm not trying to argue with anyone , he seems to be very knowledgeable and hell, he is probably smarter than me.
I just think to discount multiple years of proven performance gains that have been seen with dual plane intakes (granted maybe not optimum) because you found something that works "better" is not what car building is about.
Different strokes for Different folks is what it is about
I plan to go check out the other site because my curiosity has got the best of me , who know I may actually learn something
but I promise I wont forget what i have already learned :D
Glad you will check it out! Access to the site is pretty limited prior to 10 posts. The myths and rumors section is where I recommend starting after hitting 10.
Some of the more intriguing information relates to what parts of the combination may lead a dual plane to perform better than a single plane.
I had spent a lot of time doing the basic bolt ons and tweaking stock stuff over the years and thought I had pretty good performance. If the money I spent doing and redoing, fixing and modifying had been allocated to a more educated approach, I would have spent less and had far more performance (as in gas mileage, throttle response, driveability and power). Too bad sbftech wasn't around begining in 1972...
But as you say, the hobby does have the aspect of doing your own thing, though I suspect if there is enough good information available, usually people will choose to spend their money on what provides the biggest bang for the buck (not the necessarily the least expensive).
Hope you enjoy the read:D
Its already very interesting , and I have no doubt I am going to learn somethings (probably a lot ) :D
The combination is what makes the difference , That was never in doubt.
I cant wait to read more .
I will be honest. I am an attorney by day, and I specialize in taxes. Therefore, you know how busy I am this time of year. So my internet time is pretty limited and I spend the majority of that time running sbftech.com.
I came here to learn about the T-Bird/Cougar relm of the fox chassis as I want to build one for a drag car.
But when I see people giving advice to others that is not founded in "tested" experience or is simply based on automotive myths that came out of the 50's... I have to cringe and step in.
The BEST example I can give as it relates to the OPs question and my advice to use the single plane intake he already owns is this.
Take a good long look at the GM LS series of engines - in particular the 5.3.
The entire engine is an updated/upgraded small block FORD.
They knock down great mileage, have loads of power all over the place and are put in 2500 series trucks and SUVs. I have not heard one of those guys crying about low end torque. Now put that engine in a 3200# car instead!
How did GM do it?
Large MSCA and ASCA cylinder heads for the cubes.
Short runner intakes
Billet camshaft
Good compression (more than most internet jockeys will say you can run on pump gas)
Big (for factory) exhaust....
Its not a secret. When you limit air flow you cripple efficiency. If small intakes and small heads all actually MADE low end torque we would all be buying up scores of 255 Ford Heads, coveting the 83-85 4v intake manifolds and loving the stock exhaust logs.
The simple fact is this.
1. Its all about the combo.
2. Dual planes are good for one thing - covering up mistakes. When you choke the engine, other parts are not as critical (usually in the cam area).
I will post more when I get some time...
OP's post stated that money and time were an issue. If he's going to change nothing else, a performer rpm or a stealth is going to increase power, period. I removed a torker intake from a 66 mustang and installed a performer rpm, changing nothing else. The car picked up low end torque and made power well past where the torker fell on it's face. My 76 Cougar. Big car, tiny 302. had a performer intake. Swapped for a weiand stealth, and had an increase in mid and upper end power. My first hand experience tells me that in a street car, not only do dual plane intakes work, but they work well too.
1. If money is so tight why are you telling him to buy a dual plane? Would he not be better off making other changes in the same $$ ballpark to actually benefit the car/combo...? How about headers? How about gears? How about some free tuning time? Maybe increasing the efficiency of the engine instead of choking down to cover up other weak areas?
2. I was not aware that a 66 Mustang had a Mustang H.O Roller cam installed? Maybe - just maybe - different camshafts work differently in different combos? Hmmm...
Nathan , your info is absolutely correct
It is all about the combination of parts, and making the engine the most efficient it can be .
BUT not everyone is out to accomplish the same ends you are .
The OP said what he had and what he was told and wanted to know what we thought
With his combo and his complete lack of funds a (used) dual plane such as a performer , or stealth would accomplish exactly what he wants . better throttle response and more power .for most likely if he shops right, less that 75$
Gears and a converter and a shift kit and a cam change or headers are going to cost a substantial amount more that that.
Now is his the "best" combo out there? Probably not . Will it perform better in the seat of his pants? I think so.
But I'm not going to just forget all my experiences and knowledge, not to mention I think that the engineers and designers at places such as Edelbrock and Wieand are a hell of a lot smarter than me .
A dual plane serves a purpose and if "covering up a mistake " is covering up the one size fits all design of a factory set up why is that "wrong"
I joined the other site that you are an admin on because I'm highly curious and I believe I can learn some things, but I refuse to forget things That i already know are true.
Again I'm not trying to argue just disagree :D
You clearly know your stuff . But one size fits all never works
You put my thoughts into words better than I could have.
Alright guys thanks for the help. I don't want to keep arguments going but im planning on getting a dual plane intake. Ive asked on several forums and they have all suggested to get rid of the torker. Btw i already have bbk shorties on it. And am hoping to pick up some gears soon too. Thanks for all the help.