Problems with toe, had to remove .5-.75" from both tie rods, used new 95 Stang inner tie rods.
Ok, ordered Caster Camber plates. Decided against using full SN-95 assembly.
For those that are unaware what a "knee" assembly includes; Control arms, spindles, brakes, struts, and springs.
SN95 brakes Require one 7/16 Male to 3/16 Female adapter(Driver's side Eaton/NAPA #641-3306) and minor filing on the brake brackets for hose to chassis mount.
Note to others: Use internal spring compressor, or full "jaw" type. Buy new brake hoses to make the required bends easier.
Note to self, torque down CC plates before removing car from garage :)
So, I did manage to get a shot of the SN-95 control arm angle on the car before I removed it. I only had about 1-1/4" engagement with the tie rods using those arms.
Ceramic coated the Fox control arms for grins, more like a major headache due to the fact that impure bushings don't like 300 Degree heat for 45 Minutes. So, ended up with almost $200 in new bushings and ball joints for the fox arms, because one of the boots was torn anyway. THEN, I went to install them, and nothing I had would work for the bushings so I ended up spending $160 to have everything installed in the arms, which they told me was a smoking deal, because they had one guy on each arm for the hour I gave them to have it completed.
I am SO tired of working on that car. Installing the front suspension once was enough, but two/three times!
Still needs to be aligned and the brakes bled, seems that no matter what I do, I cannot successfully rid the lines of air without a pressure bleeder.
I have a toe out state right now, might have to shorten the tie rods? They seemed to be getting kind of tight when I was bringing the toe in, so I'm not sure what's up with that exactly. Hopefully Les Schwab can sort it out.:D - Schwab came through and chopped off the ends on the tie rods for minimal extra expense since I was out of time to have this completed.
Take pics,and I look forward to hearing and seeing the results.Good luck.Also,make a list of all the bits and pieces.
Man, modifications are expensive! I have way too much in the front suspension swap on this car. The ride height is sitting at about 28.5" from the ground to the top of the wheel well in back, and 27.25" up front. SN-95 V8 suspension up front, Fox bird Monroe struts and ford blue springs in the back.
Yes I know, the car isn't in the greatest shape, and it's filthy, but I'm exhausted, and I know how you all are a bunch of picture mongers! I also realize that a bit taller sidewall on the tires would have been nice, but two of them were free, so there.
Romeo2K, the one picture kind of shows you how far out the tire sticks with the SN-95 arms, the rim is a 18x7.5" with 6 inches of backspacing. I have a feeling it would have rubbed in a hard corner, maybe not though.
What exactly is the "knee" assembly? When I converted my 83 it was really straight forward with the SN95 parts.
Darren
It is everything from the top of the strut to the bolts for the A-Arm.
So this would be the strut, Spindle, hub, and LCA?
Darren
+ spring and complete brake assembly of course, yes.
Thanks for the info! I had never heard that term before and wanted to keep up. Good luck with the swap!
Darren
Just as an FYI, I installed the SN95 spindles on my 84 Turbo Coupe a few years back and didn't install caster-camber plates. I simply used 83-86 T-Bird struts and spaced them with some large diameter washers to fill the gap between the spindle and strut. Believe they may be in the 1" size...? Anyway, it was a basic straight-forward swap and I had it aligned the next day with no issues.
Keep us posted on your upgrade and let me know if theres anything I can answer for you.
Later, RAY
No Problem Aero.
Silver, the "Knee" assembly I will be installing uses everything from an SN95, to include the control arms and struts. The control arms are going to kick out the spindles an extra 3/4" per side, requiring the use of the plates to correct the alignment. I appreciate the heads up on the washers though, it just doesn't apply.
Are you sure they will only increase the track width by 0.75" per side? You have a stock K-member correct? If so see if I make sense here.
The 83-86 T-Birds all have the same K-Member and same LCA's. The 87-88 cars all have the same K-Member and same LCA's as well. The K-member on the 87-88 cars had the LCA mounting points moved inward to adjust for the longer LCA's. The front track width on 83-88 T-Birds is the same. From all of this a person could say that that the LCA mounting points on the 87-88 T-Bird K-Members were moved inward the difference in length between the 83-86 and 87-88 LCA's.
I found that the 87-88 T-Bird LCA's are the same length as the SN95 Mustangs (94-98). I also found that the Fox Mustang LCA's are the same length as the 83-86 T-Bird LCA's. It has been measured a couple of times and SN95 Mustang LCA's are 1.33" longer than the Fox Mustang LCA's.
So what I get from all of that is if you install SN95 or 87-88 LCA's on your 83-86 T-Bird (with a stock K-Member) you will end up with an increase in track width of 1.33" per side if you use the 94-95 Mustang spindles. If you use the 96+ spindles you can add an additional 0.315" of an inch to make it 1.645" of total track width increase per side.
If you have a 83-86 T-Bird with a stock K-member you need to run the Fox length LCA's to maintain the stock track. You may also need to install bumpsteer kits on each side (take the place of the outer tie-rod ends) as the SN95 spindles change the geometry on the cars especially the lowered ones. For the Fox Mustangs with the stock K-Member it is preferred to run the 94-95 spindles due to the geometry of the stock K-Member. If you run an aftermarket K-Member in a Mustang such as a Maximum Motorsports or Griggs they are designed around the 96+ spindles so that is the preferred spindle to run with them. I believe that MM and Griggs also design their T-Bird K-Members around the 96+ spindles as that is what Griggs told me to use on mine. I would also assume that you would want to use the 94-95 spindles on a stock K-Member T-Bird for the same geomerty reasons as the Mustang.
Sorry I reference the Mustangs so much but I started learning as much as I could about the Mustangs as there was very little info outside of the Blue Oval on the T-Birds. My understanding of alot of this got better when I built my '93 Coupe which I am using the second time around on the '83 T-Bird (going from a street/strip setup to a street/road course setup). This site is one of the few with really good info so I hope I am adding to it. If anyone sees any errors in my information please post up with the correct information.
Referenced threads:
http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=781854&highlight=front+control+%2Aarm+length+thunderbird
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=18783&highlight=front+control+%2Aarm+length
I have a Griggs K-Member in my '83 with Fox length LCA's. I had the SN95 LCA's and the front tires stuck out way too far. I called the Griggs dealer and he instantly knew I had the SN95 LCA's which is not what he ordered me. He had a brand new set of Fox LCA's at his shop and traded me straight up. Installed them and problem solved.
Darren
As per ChuckW, resident expert;
-Deleted for misunderstanding-
I don't think you see what I am saying. Regardless of the mounting locations on the K-Members the length difference between the Fox LCA's and the SN95 LCA's is 1.33" per side. If you are not changing K-Members the SN95's will push the track width out 1.33" per side. The 87-88 cars have the narrower K-Member not the other way around. Read Chuck's post on the thread I linked, its post #3.
Darren
jrad235-
Stay with your Fox control arms. If you want to swap in the SN-95 ball joints, do so. Unless you have an 87-88 car, or are modding your K-member, the SN-95 arms are going to push the wheels out too far to be useable w/o perhaps using 05+ Mustang wheels in the front.
Aero-
The 87-88/SN-95 arms arm longer, but since they're mounted in the car at an angle, the overall width increase is not going to be 1.33", it wil be less.
Gotcha. Mine are basically parallel to the ground with the Griggs suspension so there was a huge difference between the two.
Darren
By at an angle, I mean in reference to the centerline of the car.
I think I understand what you are saying. What I was referring to is as the LCA changes angle it effectively changes the track width of the front end. So when the LCA is parallel to the ground the track width is at its widest and when the angle is the greatest the track width is the narrowest. This would mean that a lowered car having the LCA parallel to the ground would have a wider track width than a stock height car. Granted it would be very little but the longer the control arm the more this would effect the width. Anyhow, at least the way I am seeing the geometry in my head is telling me this. Its been a long day so I could be just out of my mind.
Darren
ok, my turn to muddle things.
first, i believe the most current number is 1.22" longer rather than 1.33"
re: http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=463571&postcount=21
and you are not gonna gain that full 1.22" per side, as chuck mentioned, due to the angle of the LCA mounts relative to the vehicle centerline.
second, longer control arms have
lesser effect on track width change through suspension articulation. the longer the arm induces less lateral movement of the lower balljoint.
it, I had to re-read all that three times to catch the mistake.
Aero, sorry about that, I caught the error of my calculations, but I'm still going to try it due to the offset on my rims, I think it will work ok. If not, I'll use the stockers and mill some wheel spacers.
Roger that. I reread my earlier post and I was too far into a pipeline design problem and should have waited to post until after work. My biggest thing was to just get you to to weigh all the possibilities and make sure you were going to end up with what you wanted.
Darren
Oh, Ok....guess I missed that detail!! Thats what ya get for playing online AND watching NCIS at the same time!! LOL
Good luck with the install!!
Later, RAY
guys, now I'm screwed. I took the Drivers Side apart for the five lug and now I can't figure out how to get the spring back in! Compressors don't work because there is no clearance and I'm not sure I can safely muscle the arm back in on a jack with the spring seated AND still put bolts in!
I fail so badly right now. HELP!
you can use a spring compressor to squeeze it down, then tie off the spring with bailing wire or a coat hanger. take the spring compressor off and see if its compressed enough to get the spring back in.
I don't seem to have any of that readily available, any other ideas guys?
I used spring compressors on mine, and it was a tight fit.
Some have taken the arms off, used a jack to push everything up into place. Myself, I don't know how that'd go over.
Whatever you do, be safe. Obviously, a compressed spring will be dangerous.
When I did mine, I stuck a tire spoon down through the strut hole to act as a safety, just in case the spring compressor(s) broke or let go somehow.
I had a large Vice-Grips on the upper end, the spoon down through the top of the strut tower, through the spring, and then down through the hole in the k-member/frame, etc.
I don't know that I'd trust a coat hanger to squeeze a spring down.:hick:
Maybe a couple of ratchet straps, but something with enough capacity to hold...
Of course it can be done.
I have heard of some folks who it went pretty smoothly. I wasn't one of them.
Getting the front springs in was by far one of my worst projects. The right spring compressor will work, but there are a few models out there, it took me a few rentals to find one which would fit (don't even think about the one's that go on the outside of the spring). It was a very tight fit to get it and the spring in place . It was a bit of fight to get the compressor back out. I fought with it for about three days (the compressor would slip, the spring would slip, couldn't get the compressor out. It took dozens of attempts on each side).
I didn't quit till I figured it out, but it was absolutely frustrating and aggravating! I was se from swearing and sore from the fight.
Tried taking the A-arms off and pushing it up as an assembly, didn't have any luck.
As far as trying to tie the spring down while under compression, I didn't find anything that held (not that may not be anything, I just didn't find it). It was pretty scary!
I vowed never to deal with conventional front springs on a Fox body again. I'll spend the money on a coil over kit to avoid it in the future (in my mind, it's well worth the price!).
Hope you have better luck!
Mark
Are you guys using internal spring compressors? Mine worked really well and it took one time per side once I got it figured out. I compressed the spring with the drive end of the spring compressor (the end that you put the impace wrench on) so it is at the bottom of the spring. Compressed the spring and installed the whole assembly between the K-member and the LCA. The drive end of the spring compressor came through the hole in the LCA and then you would use the impact to back it off. You have to completely disassemble the spring compressor inside the spring and retrieve all the parts through the hole in the LCA.
I think I did this at least a dozen times on my two birds. I switched to coil overs and would recommend them as well but its not cheap.
Darren
Thanks, Mark, for chiming in, I was beginning to get worried. Of course, it doesn't help to try high energy/focus tasks while you're sick, and apparently I was yesterday(And still am) I will definitely check out a couple of different compressors, I just had a set of externals, but will also look into coilovers, because these standard springs suck!
Thanks also to Darren for his ideas.
Darren's post is much more clear on how an internal unit should work and will work with right compressor. I spent a lot of time fighting to make it work with a compressor that didn't quite fit (It was tough to keep centered, and then I couldn't get it out once the the spring was in place).
It'll make a better story after it's done!
the problem is getting them seated. once they are, jack it up, but take the compressor off while you still have the space between the coils to do so. It only took 15 min a side to put them in. this was the easiest,/quickest way I found to do it
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/front%20end/IMG_5384.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/daminc/front%20end/IMG_5385.jpg)
, Bevis! That right thar is a sping compressor. If I had conventional coils I would have to have one of those. Where does a person get one for those that would be interested?
Darren
Here you go: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=43753
Now there's a tool I wish I knew existed! Takes the struggle right out of it.
Thanks for the "clue".
Mark
Lol, now that is a nice compressor. I went over to Autozone last night and picked up the internal spring compressor. It sure worked a lot better, although it was just a tad tricky to get out once done.
Thanks for the help guys, I guess I just couldn't think clearly enough to remember they had other styles available.
So, the DS is installed, not totally torqued down yet, but in.
Glad you got it installed safely.
Yes, that is a great compressor.... I borrowed it from Kitz. One day He'll get it back. lol
Yep, got the Pass. Side installed tonight, have to order new brake hoses and the adapter for the Drivers side, then bleed brakes and mount wheels for alignment adjustments. I should be able to at least pull out of the driveway tomorrow afternoon.
Good deal.
Pics or it didn't happen! ;):D
Lol, just got done moving, so I'm not quite back online fully, but I did actually take pics this time, so I will be posting those when I get the chance. Looks like the Stang A-arms are pushing the rims out too far to keep in line with the rear rims, Would need spacers on the rear axle to look good. So I may have to change the a-arms out. Again. Oh well, It was worth a shot, so I guess I'll try and take some measurements before I unbolt it all.
Takes some pictures of how far the a-arms move the wheels out please.
Put a lincoln rear in it instead? lol
You mentioned that the Stang A-arms are too long, would this be the SN-95 control arms? I reread the thread and I am pretty sure you were going to try the SN-95's but I just wanted to keep it straight in my head.
Darren
Yes, he was going to try and use SN-95 A-Arms.
Chuck,
Thanks for the clarification.
jrad235,
Keep us posted on what if any changes you make and where are those pics?? Hope your move went smooth. I moved coming up on two years ago and the only good thing I can say is I found a lot of junk that I had been "missing".
Darren
Yep, Chuck is correct, I used the sn95 LCA's. The move went fine, just exhausting to try and move in one day. 8:30AM to Midnight was about when I crawled into bed Wed/Thurs and another long day on Thurs(5:30am to 1am). I still have a lot of stuff to set up, so pictures may be a few days out. Actually, I like the wide stance of the front, but not sure if I want to make wheel spacers for the back, also not sure about the tie rod engagement... Anyway, I'll do some more work to it tomorrow, so we'll see. I'll be sure to take lots of pictures.
Daminc: I just got done swapping the rear! Way too much work to do again so soon. Of course, I do have to double check some bushing sizes....and install brake cables....But I did add the new caliper brackets w/ slide pins, and greased it all up so hopefully I can cruise without the annoying repetitive squeak from the rear brakes.
Ugh, I hate waiting for shop time. I can't wait till I have my own garage! Anyway, I'm almost done cleaning and coating the old LCA's, and I have to get new balljoints. Did you know the Ford dealer wants $118 each!!!
Napa isn't much better at $80 each for premium.(SN95 Balljoints)
Hopefully This weekend will be go time, and I can load it on a trailer to get it aligned.
Finished(For the most part) - Pictures on the First post!! Found MOOG Ball joints at Baxters for a very reasonable $47 each.
:eek:
Some spring shops will compress/band the spring for you. Still must be thrilling to handle it knowing all the potential energy...:D
Man, it was hard enough finding a shop to do the bushings on a Sat, I wouldn't have wanted to find one to compress the springs. Ended up using an internal compressor, which worked OK, not the best, took a little bit to get it out once the springs were in, but what are you gonna do? Steal Kitz's jaw type? :D
I USE SPRING HOOKS, COMPRESS SPRING WITH AN OUTSIDE COMPRESSOR, INSTALL HOOKS(2) ON SPRING WHERE IT WILL BE ON THE INSIDE, (THIS WILL PUT SPRING IN A "C" SHAPE ONCE THE COMPRESSOR IS RELEASED) THEN IT WILL FIT IN THE POCKETS PERFECTLY WITH NO COMPRESSOR ATTACHED, JACK INTO PLACE AND PUT THE LOWER BALL JOINT NUT ON, JACK A LITTLE MORE AND REMOVE THE HOOKS (15 MINUTES A SIDE):shakeass:
Yes, well Mr. Shop manager, not all of us have your considerable resources :D
So, no comments on anything? Not the rims, the angles? Bummer.
Looks Great!
And thanks for the pics of the SN-95 A-Arms. :cheers:
I actually really like how they sit, I need to go out and measure the back spacing on my "New" rims (17x7.5).
Hey, thanks Romeo2k, I liked it too, but I would have needed wheel spacers for the back axle since they sit so far inboard., and I was a little concerned with the cornering, as well as only 1.25" of engagement with the tie rods. I also think I heard something about the angle of the tie rods....etc etc, probably could be fixed with a bumpsteer kit though.
I Can't remember what the inset of the old rims was, do you maybe have a picture that would show me how far inward the top of the rear tire is in relation to the fender well?
Humm, I'll look into a bit more when i dig into the front susp.
I measured a 6" Backspace on my rims also, But they have pretty fat tires.
And Nope, But i can go out and get some! :hick:
It's completely stock right now, But very soon I'll be switching out the whole rear setup.
Heres some middle of the night shots:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/Thunderbird/reardepth01.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/Thunderbird/reardepth02.jpg)
Front:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Aesthetikz/Thunderbird/rfrondepth01.jpg)
And you thought your car was dirty! :hick:
Yes, I was definitely mistaken:D Thanks for the pics, I'll compare this week and let you know if the inset has changed much.
Ok, well, had to chop ~1/2" off the inner tie rods to get toe corrected?! Anyone else have this issue? Very distressing since no one else mentioned it.
Also, seems my 6 inches of backspacing is either too much up front, or I am missing a turn stop, because I've already scrubbed two wheel weights off in hard turns. Seems like the Control arm is a likely culprit but I haven't looked closely.
Any ideas or thoughts are appreciated, thanks guys!
Recap:
Fox arms, SN-95 everything else.
18x7.5" with 6" Backspacing rims.
Had to shorten tie rods.
Ok, so, I looked a little closer, and apparently the rim/tire ishiznitting the K-member?! I suppose I should have taken pictures, but I was at Les Schwab. They aligned it and rebalanced the tires. For some stupid reason, I can't get to the ideal camber on the DS strut tower. It is within Factory spec, but not optimal.
I am beginning to regret these rims.....
You have FWD wheels on a RWD drive car. You're going to have clearance issues. You need wheels with less backspacing. Plain and simple.
Yeah, I know, but they look so darn cool! I guess I'll be considering wheel spacers front and rear, though the aligned stance actually looks pretty good.
That still doesn't explain the tie rods though....
Humm...
Wondering if wheel diameter isn't a major factor in rubbing as well...
Do you have a lot of rub, or just a little?
I thinking the 18" (6" Backspacing right?) rims and/or tire profile may be causing you the troubles there.
Dunno~Just thinking out loud.
We should have about a +44mm offset.
And its looking like +38 is roughly the max for our k-frame...
So to achieve that (38mm) the chart says we would need a 0.25 spacer? (or larger) on each side in the front (equivelant of 5.75 backspacing).
But i (Think) the max recommended offset is +32mm, So we would probably need a half inch spacer at a minimum per side.
Really wishing i could get a hands on with this, But i'm still gathering the needed parts for the front + i have to change the bolt pattern and i have other projects ahead of it in line. >.<
I'm learning as look into this stuff so i could be way off or right on~Would be great of someone Experienced in this area could chime in.
Well, if it wasn't the rim it would be the tire. My current combo has the same overall diameter as the old ones. I was thinking a 1/2" spacer was in order, may as well get four of them for mine. Thanks for posting up some numbers.